View Full Version : 10 stop ND filter - How will it perform in the bright daylight?
I have seen some belting shots with a 10 stop ND filter. They all seem to have been taken during the dusky / early morning times. I am interested in whether I would be able to achieve similar results (misty water etc) during a bright day?
I of course will try to use the best light available, but if not, will I get equal results on a bright sunny day? Or is this asking to much of a 10 stop filter?
puddleduck
01-03-2009, 18:14
I ended up with a 15 second exposure with one of these in very good light (actually very bad light, good light is never "good light" its bad light.. )
Anyhow, yes, you can still do longer exposures.
I of course will try to use the best light available, but if not, will I get equal results on a bright sunny day? Or is this asking to much of a 10 stop filter?Think about it.
What determines exposure time? How are those values interlinked? And of them, which is changing by increasing the intensity of light and what would happen to the other values as a result?
If you don't know, then someone can point it out to the letter for you. But it would be more useful for you to reason it through for yourself, with perhaps a gentle nudge in the right direction.
Les McLean
01-03-2009, 18:35
Short answer is yes, if you use a low ISO and stop down.
:thinking:
Exposure time determined by light and aperture .................. How am I doing so far? Values are interlinked by ....... increasing the aperture (smaller F number) by 1 stop, you have to half the shutter speed to get the same exposure ..................... Have I got that right so far?
bsmotorsport
01-03-2009, 18:39
Don't people use two or more for very bright conditions? Only guessing as Im still waiting to get one and try it for myself
Steve :thumbs:
A 10 stop ND would be so dark that you would barely see through it, even on a very good sunny day.
So, yes, it could be used to give the milky-water effect in daytime .. but you don't need to go that far up on the ND scale to get the effect you're talking about.
For example, Formatt (who do some really good filters) charge about £25 for the ND 10, while their set of 3 ND filters (ND 0.3, 0.6 and 0.9) is just over £30. These three plus a small aperture would give you enough long exposure to get the desired effect, even in good sunlight.
ranarama
01-03-2009, 18:47
Would I be right in thingking a 10 stop ND filter will result in exposures 1000 (1024 to be exact) times slower? So a 1/1000s exposure without the filter would produce the same exposure at 1s with the filter. Or has my maths gone up the spout?
Jambo_84
01-03-2009, 18:52
Would I be right in thingking a 10 stop ND filter will result in exposures 1000 (1024 to be exact) times slower? So a 1/1000s exposure without the filter would produce the same exposure at 1s with the filter. Or has my maths gone up the spout?
Yep, I believe you're right.
I'm still waiting for mine to arrive, ordered from Warehouse Express over 2 weeks ago but still not here yet, I think they are a special order item so I understand but I'm getting impatient! Anyone else ordered one from the same place? How long did yours take to arrive?
I believe 10 ND are made to order, at least Formatt filters are. Any ways, Formatt state that it would take up to 2 weeks to deliver, but mine arrived in 3 days (ordered from their web site directly).
:thinking:
Exposure time determined by light and aperture .................. How am I doing so far? Values are interlinked by ....... increasing the aperture (smaller F number) by 1 stop, you have to half the shutter speed to get the same exposure ..................... Have I got that right so far?Yeah, you're just about on the money there.
You've got aperture, shutter speed and ISO as the main factors, with the brightness of the light being the fourth. It's reasonable to assume that with ISO, aperture and shutter speed as the same, the brightness would be the determining factor.
All other things being equal, you'll get longer shutter speeds (and more of that 'misty' effect) in lower light than you would during the middle of the day. Obviously you could adjust some of the other factors to produce a similar result, but being they would be aperture or ISO it might not necessarily be desirable.
But having said all that, given an ND10 filters inherent properties, you'll get a nice effect at any time of the day, conditions permitting.
I believe 10 ND are made to order, at least Formatt filters are. Any ways, Formatt state that it would take up to 2 weeks to deliver, but mine arrived in 3 days (ordered from their web site directly).
I can't find that on their website - do you have a link to it?
I can't find that on their website - do you have a link to it?
http://www.formatt.co.uk/stills-filters/filters/standard-n-d/stills-filters.aspx
but you may want to consider the thread here:
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=116689
Thanks - I'm assumming that filter with a density of 3 is the one I'm looking for (equal to ND10)?
Thanks - I'm assumming that filter with a density of 3 is the one I'm looking for (equal to ND10)?
Yes that's correct.
The B+W screw alternative, which you may want to consider, is here:
http://www.warehouseexpress.com/product/default.aspx?sku=1013508
Tom has the right links; and yes the 3.0 is the ND10 ... giving 10 stops. However, unless you need the 100mm filters, you may want to change that to the 85mm ones, which are a lot cheaper too.
Keep in mind that prices are exclusive of VAT.
Should "refresh page" before I reply :)
while their set of 3 ND filters (ND 0.3, 0.6 and 0.9) is just over £30. These three plus a small aperture would give you enough long exposure to get the desired effect
If the dersired effect you want is a magenta cast. :bang:
Sorry, I wouldn't recommend stacking HiTech ND's unless you like your photos pink!
Lee,
I saw your other thread on this matter, but I haven't yet double checked my photos to see what caused this effect.
Yes, I've had a very similar problem with some of my shots (actually, they were my first outing with the Formatt set) ... but on the 2nd, and every consecutive outing, I've had a whole different set of results (exactly what I had wanted & expected).
I will post some of the pictures in your other thread.
If I thought Formatt were giving this magenta cast out of a fault of their design, I would send them all back for a refund; but I am being to believe it is not necessarily the filter :shrug:
kennysarmy
04-03-2009, 09:16
I've got one and very pleased with the results it gives me.
You have to compose with it off and switch to manual focus. I usually end up just doing a bit of guess-work with the exposure time and then adjusting after checking the outcome on the LCD.
Here is one from a while back.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kennysarmy/3144928767/
and I took some at the weekend which I should upload to flickr tonight.
Cheers.
Uneducated_Rick
04-03-2009, 10:27
If the dersired effect you want is a magenta cast. :bang:
Sorry, I wouldn't recommend stacking HiTech ND's unless you like your photos pink!
Isn't that cokin not hitech? Even then only on the older cokin filters, their new ones are true nd
Never heard anyone have anything bad to say about hitechs before
I wonder; when shooting a lot of long exposures, the sensor gets hot. Would it be possible for this heat to cause any colour-casting problems?
I wonder; when shooting a lot of long exposures, the sensor gets hot. Would it be possible for this heat to cause any colour-casting problems?
Surely it would get equally as hot if you are using a screw on filter - but there does not appear to be a caste issue when they are used.
puddleduck
04-03-2009, 11:36
I wonder; when shooting a lot of long exposures, the sensor gets hot. Would it be possible for this heat to cause any colour-casting problems?
No, exposures aren't long enough.
Actually the B&W 10-stop ND does have a bit of a colour cast I've found (which surprised me as the N stands for neutral...)
Good to know .. I was just wondering, as I have no clue on the science of all this.
If I thought Formatt were giving this magenta cast out of a fault of their design, I would send them all back for a refund; but I am being to believe it is not necessarily the filter
I have been looking back through my images too regarding this matter.
Unfortunately I don't seem to have started using the filters before my 5D, so everything here is based on full frame meaning that the problems are either with the filters, full frameness or my camera.
However, I can fairly confidently say that the problems occur when stacking a ND with a GND. In all examples, as far as I remember, I am using a 0.9 GND combined with either a 0.9 or 3.0 ND. Even one of my 1.6s images is showing slight signs of a magenta cast, getting progressively worse as the exposure time increases upto 160s.
Isn't that cokin not hitech?
Nope, these are HiTech/Formatt.
Never heard anyone have anything bad to say about hitechs before
Yay! I'm the first! Oh... that's not good, is it? :bang:
Philx1979
04-03-2009, 17:59
Yep, I believe you're right.
I'm still waiting for mine to arrive, ordered from Warehouse Express over 2 weeks ago but still not here yet, I think they are a special order item so I understand but I'm getting impatient! Anyone else ordered one from the same place? How long did yours take to arrive?
Order from wokingham photographic, i recommend phoning them first to see if they actually have it in stock, i did and had mine the next day.
Philx1979
04-03-2009, 18:03
No, exposures aren't long enough.
Actually the B&W 10-stop ND does have a bit of a colour cast I've found (which surprised me as the N stands for neutral...)
Its common for 10stop nd filters to have a warm cast although i`m not sure exactly why, but think thats why its recommended to convert the pics to black and white.
Maybe it could be corrected a little if shot in RAW?
One of mine
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3292/3316135616_31e358677a.jpg
I have been looking back through my images too regarding this matter.
Unfortunately I don't seem to have started using the filters before my 5D, so everything here is based on full frame meaning that the problems are either with the filters, full frameness or my camera.
However, I can fairly confidently say that the problems occur when stacking a ND with a GND. In all examples, as far as I remember, I am using a 0.9 GND combined with either a 0.9 or 3.0 ND. Even one of my 1.6s images is showing slight signs of a magenta cast, getting progressively worse as the exposure time increases upto 160s.
Nope, these are HiTech/Formatt.
Yay! I'm the first! Oh... that's not good, is it? :bang:
Well, this is baffling me :shrug:
May be, if this is not too much of a bother, you ought to test each one on it's own.
Do a matix of filter / filter combination vs. time, and see what results you get.
If I have the time, I will do the same tomorrow, and post what results I can and may be we can then compare.
I am sure, if there is something with the filters then Formatt would be too happy to hear from you on this.
if this is not too much of a bother, you ought to test each one on it's own.
Sorry mate, unlikely to do anything that scientific at the minute. What with work, dark nights, and diy stuff at home, a few hours on a sunday is all the time i get. I might try the ND's on their own though.
BTW... apologies to the OP if this has gone off topic. It's all fairly relevant though to the original discussion.
Yes, sorry Sara, if we've gone way off on a tangent here; but I hope this helps you decide on which set to get :shrug:
No worries, Lee. I will try and do some test tomorrow, or the day-after at the very latest.
No problem :thumbs: Definately made good reading and will def stick with the screw in - Mmm, just got to find one now, they seem rarer than rocking horse poop at the moment!
Here you go ...
Robert White (http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/product.asp?P_ID=673&PT_ID=193)
Here you go ...
Robert White (http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/product.asp?P_ID=673&PT_ID=193)
Coated or uncoated? What's the difference?
Sorry, I have no idea ... I didn't know they come in "coated" versions.
Circular Polarisers (CP) come in Coated & Uncoated, and for the life of me I could never find a consensus as to what the coating is all about!
When I bought my CP filters, I opted for the multi-coated ones, more expensive, but then I couldn't get a multi-coated slim 82mm CP (for a wide angle lens I have) from the same brand .. so I went with the standard (these were Heliopna CPs, mind; but almost up there with B+W for quality). I couldn't tell the difference between the Coated & Uncoated types.
Of course, this could be purely due to my lack of experience :shrug:
The way I look at it ... B+W are some of the best filters on the market; so, even going with their uncoated (which I am guessing is cheaper) filters you'd be A. O.K.
Of course, I am open to be corrected on this.
Robert White (http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/product.asp?P_ID=673&PT_ID=193)
WHE much cheaper if you can wait for their stock to arrive.
WHE much cheaper if you can wait for their stock to arrive.
Of course I can't wait:D They're quoting until mid April to get stock.
WHE seem to be out of stock for a lot of the good stuff. I keep checking their site, and a few others, on a daily basis. WHE used to be the one, of a very few, that had most stuff in stock; now, that's no longer the case :shrug:
I hope they're not going under .. low sales, higher prices, smaller profit margins :'(
Magic Elf
05-03-2009, 08:43
No, exposures aren't long enough.
Actually the B&W 10-stop ND does have a bit of a colour cast I've found (which surprised me as the N stands for neutral...)
I've got the B+W 3.0 ND filter and the images are definitely warm with it and I convert most of my long exposure shots to B&W. I didn't understand the neutral part either.
Jambo_84
05-03-2009, 08:48
Of course I can't wait:D They're quoting until mid April to get stock.
I ordered mine 2.5 weeks ago and they email me last night saying it should be here today :)
kennysarmy
05-03-2009, 16:49
as promised here are two I took at the weekend...25 and 20 second exposures...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3597/3331344402_064c45273b.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/kennysarmy/3331344402/)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3637/3330505341_acd39ccf2a.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/kennysarmy/3330505341/)
enjoy
Wow, the 10 stop on Warehouse Express has really shot up in price. I'm looking now at the Wokingham Photographic online shop, they say they should arrive at the end of May. I'm going on holiday this time in two weeks, I wonder if i'll get it in time :|
By the way, are Hi-Teck and Formatt the same thing?
I'm sure I have never seen a cast on my 10 stop screw in B&W (although I haven't used it too much). As for sharpness, I haven't seen a noticeable drop in that either with and without (I tested this).
And to the OP. Yep it's fine to to use a 10 stop in broad daylight, in fact I think it is a lot easier than dusk, as with dusk you are forever chasing the light, and having to up the ISO to get a reasonable length exposure. :lol:
I've got two ND8's so I'll take a normal shot (no filters), then one ND8, then stacked ND8's and post the results tomorrow.
I have found a slight colour cast on the long exposures, but did not know at that time that the eye piece can be used to stop this. Still looking forward to using it in anger :thumbs:
No, exposures aren't long enough.
Actually the B&W 10-stop ND does have a bit of a colour cast I've found (which surprised me as the N stands for neutral...)
I have found a slight colour cast on the long exposures, but did not know at that time that the eye piece can be used to stop this. Still looking forward to using it in anger :thumbs:
:thinking: Which colour are you seeing cast on your images, chaps?
If anything, the few images that I've got using my B+W10 stop, have had a grey/blue cast, but it's not very strong and might even be imagined.
I'm curious to know what you've seen.
coldpenguin
23-05-2009, 21:26
I am not sure whether it would be dark enough in bright sunshine, or whether I am just getting something wrong.
Two shots, 1 without filter, AV=11, Tv=1/200, shot is underexposed, no ND
Second shot, AV=29, Tv=15, shot is about right for exposure I feel, but had an ND8, ND4 and ND2 filter on the end
Another shot, Av=16, Tv=2.5, all NDs as before, plus polarizer, shot looks OK, looks better with +0.33eV
Numbers don't really add up here.
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/gallery/data/500/IMG_2190.JPG
Ordered my ND10 from warehouse express 7th April, still not been delivered. Don't hold your breath if you are going to order one from there.
Well it does say early June delivery.
:thinking: Which colour are you seeing cast on your images, chaps?
I've had a slight pink cast, but not too bothered as it can go in PP and I now know to use the eye piece!
I've had a slight pink cast, but not too bothered as it can go in PP and I now know to use the eye piece!
Thanks for the reply :).It's weird though, as I said, if anything I have the opposite colour cast :shrug:.
Then again, I've always flipped down the eyepiece shutter on my D700 when I've used this filter, as it's always been on a tripod for a matter of minutes with a fair amount of light around.
I'll have to try it in broad daylight sometime and see if there is a colour cast, but I'd be disappointed if there was, as all of my other B+W filters are great at what they do :).
The B+W 10-stop ND has a slight warm cast. It seems to be difficult to avoid this in the manufacture of a very strong ND filter. Could you not dial this out with custom white balance? Anyway, it's easy enough to get rid of in PP as Sara says.
Tiffen ND filters are supposed to be most neutral (according to Ken Rockwell) and their best ones are also coated (B+W NDs are uncoated). But they don't do a 10-stop version and are hard to get in the UK.
What's all this about using the eye piece?
Uneducated_Rick
25-05-2009, 21:32
Use the coverslip, or something else, to cover the viewfinder as light can leak through the pentaprism into the body and onto the sensor causing uneven exposure
coldpenguin
26-05-2009, 18:51
How many stops could that effect do you think? I had an ND8+4+2 stacked on the end of the lens, and it didn't really seem to slow things down that much. The resultant picture looks relatively even though (the lighter center I assumed was vignetting).
How many stops could that effect do you think? I had an ND8+4+2 stacked on the end of the lens, and it didn't really seem to slow things down that much. The resultant picture looks relatively even though (the lighter center I assumed was vignetting).
Hard to say in stops of ND, it's the relative brightness of the ambient light. You're only likely to get a problem if you're using an exposure of a few seconds in bright daylight. Just shading the viewfinder closely with your hand is probably enough to prevent it, and I think all manufacturers provide a little clip-on eyepiece cover.
To see the effect, put the lens cap on and shine a torch into the viewfinder during an exposure of a few seconds. That will show the problem, although some cameras appear to be worse/better than others.
Hi, just a quick note to say they have a few of these filters in at http://www.fotosense.co.uk/b-w-110-3-0-sh-ndx1000-77mm-neutral-density-filter.html .Posting this as I know how hard it is to find these, I had to wait months for mine, and they're way overpriced at Warehouse Express.
Which strength ND filter would you suggest for me to 'give it a go'? (Never used one and this topic is getting the better of my curiosity... :D)
Which strength ND filter would you suggest for me to 'give it a go'? (Never used one and this topic is getting the better of my curiosity... :D)
Hard to say what is best.
What is your 'normal' shutter speed likely to be? What would you like it to be for the effect you're after? The answer is the difference between them.
Having said that, I think the B+W 10 stopper is probably the one I'll be getting - the link above to Fotosense is a good price, especially as they seem to have it in stock.
If you just want a play, using the glass from a welding mask will give you a taste for it for a couple of quid. See the other thread about it here http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=151141
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