RANT: Why can't dSLR operate without a mechanical shutter?

[daugirdas]

I really don't understand this one. Is it so hard to just turn on the sensor and then off for whatever amount of time? Surely this must be possible. Also that would give us ultra high sync speeds. And there would be no more dreaded shutter failures!

I can see why they are needed in film cameras. However digital doesn't make sense. Maybe all camera companies just left it in to make the cameras more expensive and more likely to fail? /End of rant

[Harvey_nikon]

or perhaps this way was the cheapest option overall? Perhaps its more damaging to the sensor to turn it on and off again, especially if doing continuous shooting than to leave it on permanently? I would of though a sensor would be more expensive to replace than a mechanical shutter?

I have no idea really, just throwing things out there for consideration! :D

[Flash In The Pan]

Both Nikon and Canon have used combined electronic/mechanical shutters in the past, the fact that both companies have abandoned them in dslrs suggests that it's either impractical or, more likely, not cost effective.

[Alianther]

If you don't have shutter curtains protecting the sensor, then it is exposed every time you change a lens. Dust on sensors is a big enough problem with a shutter. Without it every picture would look like it was taken in snow storm.

Besides, even if you didn't have a mechanical shutter, you still need a mirror to be able to see through the lens when looking in the viewfinder. The mirror still has to be mechanically moved when a picture is taken, whether you have a shutter or not.

[HoppyUK]

The days of the mechanical shutter are numbered, but it still has quite a high number on it. Panasonic and Samsung have both announced ambitious new systems that address the DSLR type of camera in a completely new way, rather than being a rehash of a 35mm SLR with a digital sensor where the film used to be. Panasonic has launched the G1 and GH1 that does away with the mirror and optical viewfinder, and Samsung will follow later this year.

Both make extensive use of electronics in radical new ways, and if it was posible to get rid of the mechanical shutter now, they would have done so. There are two aspects to the problem, and the most obvious is that rapid switching of the sensor isn't yet possible without numerous side effects, partly because it also has to work as a full time viewfinder. Heat is one difficulty, but I'm sure Google will have loads more info.

The other thing is that over the years, the mechanical focal plane shutter has become extremely good. Fast, accurate, reliable and cheap. If you want high-speed flash sync, plenty of guns will provide that.

[walls]

if it ain't broke

[Gary-360]

I like my clicking shutter, leave it alone :D

[Richard Peters]

A silent camera would be superb for wildlife though! And wedding photographers would probably welcome it as well instead of hearing the shutter sound ringing round the church!

[jimlizard]

And wedding photographers would probably welcome it as well instead of hearing the shutter sound ringing round the church!

Those who use Leica rangefinders don't have that problem. :D

[Richard Peters]

Those who use Leica rangefinders don't have that problem. :D

:razz::razz::razz:

:D

[HoppyUK]

It's the mirror that makes the most noise. Some cameras have a quiet shooting mode, via live view, which makes your DSLR as quiet as a Leica.

[dapprman]

Another way of looking at it is that mobile phone cameras have traditionally used electronic shutters as you've described, however they (think Nokia are the first) are now moving to mechanical shutters.

[pearce_jj]

IIRC the 5D Mk2 can't take a full-res still without interrupting the video stream. So there must be some need for the shutter. Perhaps it's also to do with the transfer rate - to capture at 20MP (20M x 24 bit at least), at 1/8000th it would need to transfer at 480GB/s - most good servers at running at about 20GB/s presently.

[Steve Smith]

However digital doesn't make sense.

I agree!


Steve.

[u8myufo]

They could have fitted a little fan inside the camera, thus blowing gremlins outwards each time you changed a lens :lol::lol:

[Trev Rich]

I like the sound... and its the mirror that makes most noise.. and I want to be able to see what I'm shooting :)

[Kryptix]

if it ain't broke
...fix it until it is! :D

[Nod]

The days of the mechanical shutter are numbered, but it still has quite a high number on it. Panasonic and Samsung have both announced ambitious new systems that address the DSLR type of camera in a completely new way, rather than being a rehash of a 35mm SLR with a digital sensor where the film used to be. Panasonic has launched the G1 and GH1 that does away with the mirror and optical viewfinder, and Samsung will follow later this year.




Lose the mirror and optical viewfinder and the camera ceases to be an SLR and becomes a bridge camera with changeable lenses.

My D70 has both a mechanical shutter and an electronic one, allowing a high synch speed when fill-in flashing (1/500th s) while the D700 allows synching (with SB-900, SB-800 and SB-600 flash units) up to 1/8,000 s.

[neil_g]

but i like the uber-mechanical "KERRR-THWACK" noise my 20D makes. it frightens children.

especially at 5fps :D

[HoppyUK]

Lose the mirror and optical viewfinder and the camera ceases to be an SLR and becomes a bridge camera with changeable lenses.

Yes, and I certainly don't have a problem with that. The Single-Lens bit of SLR has always been a good thing, but the Reflex part causes all sorts of problems.

My D70 has both a mechanical shutter and an electronic one, allowing a high synch speed when fill-in flashing (1/500th s) while the D700 allows synching (with SB-900, SB-800 and SB-600 flash units) up to 1/8,000 s.

The D70 and one or two other cameras manage to increase x-sync a bit by switching their CCD sensors, but CCD is being replaced by CMOS, which doesn't work well in this respect. The substitute high speed flash mode available with units is a flash function, not a camera shutter function. It works by pulsing the flash at 40-50KHz, effectively producing continuous light, but flash power and range is dramatically reduced.

[arclight]

I like my clicking shutter, leave it alone :D

So do I. It's one of those reassuring sounds that all is well.

Like the friendly purr of the Primus (stove).

[david1701]

The days of the mechanical shutter are numbered, but it still has quite a high number on it. Panasonic and Samsung have both announced ambitious new systems that address the DSLR type of camera in a completely new way, rather than being a rehash of a 35mm SLR with a digital sensor where the film used to be. Panasonic has launched the G1 and GH1 that does away with the mirror and optical viewfinder, and Samsung will follow later this year.

Both make extensive use of electronics in radical new ways, and if it was posible to get rid of the mechanical shutter now, they would have done so. There are two aspects to the problem, and the most obvious is that rapid switching of the sensor isn't yet possible without numerous side effects, partly because it also has to work as a full time viewfinder. Heat is one difficulty, but I'm sure Google will have loads more info.

The other thing is that over the years, the mechanical focal plane shutter has become extremely good. Fast, accurate, reliable and cheap. If you want high-speed flash sync, plenty of guns will provide that.

unfortunately they are a bit pants, a friend of a friend has one of the pannys and I had a go, the camera had nice toys but the viewfinder was terrrile compared to my 50d's and that isn't much compared to my eos 650 ..... or praktica...... maybe viewfinders are just going downhill

[daugirdas]

Yes, but what about video in DSLRs and live view mode? If they display picture in liveview they could also store it on CF.

RAW files with an extra dimension (the variable exposure time) could have some interesting use.

[HoppyUK]

Forgot to mention, Casio makes a couple of still/video cameras that use sensor switching to shoot at 6ofps, and up to 1,200fps at reduced resolution (very reduced). Of course, frame speed is not the same as shutter speed.

There must be a catch, as nobody seems very interested. And they also have mechanical shutters as well.

[Blapto]

We've been here before, twice:
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=135856
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=115788

Both of those threads contain the answer you are looking for.

[Dom]

Why can't dSLR operate without a mechanical shutter?

Because it would not be a SLR any more!

[dunganick]

i had a play with the new panasonic g1 at work, i thought i was in love, i even liked the electronic viewfinder, it wasnt perfect, but it wasnt bad either. Then i took a very long exposure shot, the screen blanks out for a massive amount of time, shots like 1/20 that i use regually for motorsports were impossible as you couldnt track the car as the shutter was open.

Other than that i loved the g1 and the electric shutter seemed a well executed solution to the problem.

[buckas]

but i like the uber-mechanical "KERRR-THWACK" noise my 20D makes. it frightens children.



get out of the playground :lol:

[stressless]

but i like the uber-mechanical "KERRR-THWACK" noise my 20D makes. it frightens children.

especially at 5fps :D

lol Yean I remember taking a photo of a 10 month ish old baby and she **** herself and did not look back the camera for ages .... sorry of the topic I know. the sound makes it keep the sound.


Michael.

[Gary-360]

So do I. It's one of those reassuring sounds that all is well.

Like the friendly purr of the Primus (stove).

Even better when you're at Knockhill firing off shots at 11fps (crop mode of course). :D