View Full Version : Nekkid Bodies etc.
Following on from CTs post in the InDepth Critique forum, would it not be possible to have a seperate forum which is invisible to everyone unless they 'sign' an over 18 statement, for those Images that are or might be unsuitable for youngsters?
To my mind there's little or no difference between naked breasts and naked genitalia in a photograph so all should really go there, and always assuming it's art and not porn.
Jonnyreb
21-01-2007, 14:33
I'm not fussed to be honest. think the 'no genitalia' rule is sufficient. Then, i'm as amoral as they come :D
I don't mind either but the suggestion is that kids will be using these forums and I hope that parents etc would be worried about it.
If someone signs an over 18/I will be responsible statement then the forum becomes visible just as all the others.
h.r.ford
21-01-2007, 14:40
The problem with the tasteful qualifier, mentioned on the other post, is that not everyone has the same taste. I think that no below the belt nudity is fine as it is at the moment but I'm not averse to having a separate section. Not sure about the logistics of that though.
Jonnyreb
21-01-2007, 14:42
also think you run the risk of having a 'smut section' stigma attached to the site......
I can see Steep's point. I personally hate censorship and being told what I can and can't look at. Our 'no naughty bits' rule is there to try to encompass the huge diversity in opinions which surround this subject whilst still allowing nude photographers to air their work here.
I don't think we have more than two or three people at most currently submitting this type of work, but the separate forum idea might be worth considering? I can't personally see that the omission of ladies genitalia is a bar to producing good nude work, but by all means, let's have people's views on the subject.
:)
Cheers CT, I don't mean that it should not be moderated btw, in fact just the opposite, as the site gets busier it might need closer moderation.
Jonnyreb I see that point as well, it could be made clear though in the sub heading and in the content allowed.
I like it the way it is. No knobbly wobbly bits.
If this rule is bent then there will always be the odd bad apple that takes things to extreme.
I've seen some of Arkady's shots that "graze" the current rule, but dont break it.
In most cases (as above) people have the strength of character to know where the line is.
Thats the way it should be.
Hmmm! I think we could run and run with this one, as Renee said 'not everyone has the same taste' and what one person finds pornographic another person wont.
I do think we need some general guidelines as to what is acceptable though and although personally speaking, I dont mind the idea of full nudes of either sex, for my own personal tastes I draw the line at open leg shots (women) and shots where the genitals become the main focus of the shot.
I appreciate the sensuality of the nude form, and I hope to shoot some, (are you listening Min) but I think we have to be very careful that by not wishing to censor the artist, that we dont actively encourage people to the forum for none other than to either host or view shots of an explicit nature.
The idea of a Glamour / Erotic Photography area seems ok. There are many many sites that are far bigger than we are that manage it well enough. They haven't been killed off for having a "smut" section.
So Im assuming that section will include men in all their states?
You cant have ONLY women.
Jonnyreb
21-01-2007, 15:41
So Im assuming that section will include men in all their states?
You cant have ONLY women.
depends on how many you have to submit ;) :D
As glo said one persons porn is anothers art.......
I think the idea of a seperate section as Steep has suggested is great.
If someone was to post up an image that was a little too risky, its down to the people viewing it, if they wish to continue to view and leave a comment or if they think it might be in bad taste and move on.
Thats my 1 pence couldn't afford 2 :D
depends on how many you have to submit ;) :D
I dont want to see them...... its just that it seems the talk is all of women's genitalia. If posts of men's erect penises appeared there too, would all you men be perfectly happy? It would then be a porn forum.
I am by no means narrow-minded!!:D
But things have to be fair. Otherwise it is sexist. Even the titile of this thread...naked women.
You all entered into the racist big brother thread...but dont you guys see how you are all being sexist?? :nono:
Jonnyreb
21-01-2007, 17:14
I dont want to see them...... its just that it seems the talk is all of women's genitalia. If posts of men's erect penises appeared there too, would all you men be perfectly happy? It would then be a porn forum.
I actually agree and would prefer the way things are now
I actually agree and would prefer the way things are now
So do I! ;) :thumbs:
If this forum starts getting over-run with distasteful images of womens (or mens) genitalia, then I for one will be going elsewhere.
Turning this site into a softcore porn site is an extraordinarily bad idea.
As glo said one persons porn is anothers art... I personally would say "one person's art is another person's porn".
If anything can be construed as porn, then it does not belong on a site that is open to people of all ages. Its as simple as that.
I have been on quite a few other photo forums and have gradually left them all and used this forum entirely.
All the others had a special part of the forum put aside for nude shots etc etc. They almost always got too near the mark, with the men getting carried away.
Id hate to see that happen here...it is a brilliant site. Leave it how it is. :|
For Reference I don't have a problem with seeing porn or full frontal nude pictures.
However,
I think for the forum it is ok to have pics of a naked person male or female as long as it is artistic and tasteful i.e NOT porn, no open legs, erections etc.
I don't really mind if these shots go in people/portraits or in a seprate 'Adult' section.
I think although there are parents browsing with children if the shots are tasteful and artistic as mentioned above then I don't see an issue, after all you wouldn't cover your kids eyes if you took them to see Michaelangelo's David, or a naked woman statue would you?
I think it is good for kids to see pics like this and be educated that not all nudity is porn and that it can be a beautiful picture and just as nice as a good landscape etc without being seedy and dirty. It gives them a good appreciation for art etc
Not sure I have a view either way, I did see the pick earlier and I'm not sure it was appropriate.
But let's be realistic, how many of these have ben posted in the last 6 months. If you are attaching an image that may be considered innappropriate then it should be clearly lablled in the thread title and allow people to make up their own mind about a subject.
Much like Pete earlier I thought the image, looked cheap and poorly composed, but clearly David as he says in his thread didnt mean to offend.
The way around this a either a) clear rules for posting nude (male or female)
b) Ban nude altogether.
Either way it looks like a vote is on the cards
Is their a difference betwen a butt and a breast ? ;)
I think the current no genitals rule is a good one, we dont often get bits of downstairs stuff posted, and i think CT handled(fnarr) the last one well.
Opinions on this sort of thing will ALWAYS be divided and sometimes passionate, so at this time its probably best to stick to what we have now, which has been fine and worked very well thus far, while the team talk about it further.
Is their a difference betwen a butt and a breast ? ;)
butts and breasts are fine......genitalia isnt! :razz:
btw we do have rules, i think bod had them last...
some forums have sites where a subsection of a main section is accessable only if you request it (ie password or logon dependant) ...perhaps that might be the way forward ?
Jonnyreb
21-01-2007, 17:29
I'd usually agree with a democratic process, but I also think that if some members disagree with porn / nudity / art, whatever, then a vote only risks alienation and I'm sure none of us want that?
butts and breasts are fine......genitalia isnt! :razz:
:agree:
If people want to look at "full on" photos there are plenty of places on the net to do so (so I'm told ;) ). Please, please, please admin - don't make this place one of them :nono:
I think the current no genitals rule is a good one, we dont often get bits of downstairs stuff posted, and i think CT handled(fnarr) the last one well.
Opinions on this sort of thing will ALWAYS be divided and sometimes passionate, so at this time its probably best to stick to what we have now, which has been fine and worked very well thus far, while the team talk about it further.
:agree:
butts and breasts are fine......genitalia isnt! :razz:
I would tend to agree ...
Great name for a new album though ... butts and breasts are fine......genitalia isnt!
I would tend to agree ...
Great name for a new album though ... butts and breasts are fine......genitalia isnt!
and who would be the artist to bring out this album?? ;) :lol: :lol: :lol:
Bare Naked Ladies :) I'm jokin !!
Jonnyreb
21-01-2007, 17:37
and who would be the artist to bring out this album?? ;) :lol: :lol: :lol:
probably some gun-toting 'liberal' christian band from the states :lol:
:thinking:
i have been watching this all day and i think i will throw my 10 pence in now .
i have seen over the last couple of months these shots grow from one i took of my heavily pregnant wife . tryin to do the "demi moore shot" to the shot posted today.
i personally tried to show the natural side of new life. :thinking:
then as the months have gone on we have moved on from bra shots to breast shots to " todays shot"
i for one like glamour shots ..."but think we should have a line not to be crossed. my personal choice would be no nipples or genitalia of either males or females. that way you can still have very sexy shots but should not offend anyone and we could carry on as we have been.
anyway thats my thought on this..
I agree with Dave. That is what I have seen before on other sites. It starts off as "glamour" and ends up as porn.
If we dont start it ..... it cant get out of control.
Its like anything these days... we get de-sensitized to it.. and end up thinking worse and worse things are ok.
Bear in mind folks, I wasn't asking what should be posted or not, I think the rules on that are fine as they are, just wether we should have a seperate age limited area where such images could be posted.
think the rules on that are fine as they are,
if the rules are fine as they are...then we dont need another part of the forum do we, as there is nothing wrong with the shots that are within our rules.
Having shut my eyes for an hour and reflected seriously on this issue.. :lol:
I think the current 'no genitalia' rule is fine. Anyone who's ever tackled nude photography will know it's incredibly difficult to do it without the results looking cheap and tacky, and most people have no trouble recognizing the difference between earnest attempts at interpreting the nude and soft porn or worse. :)
Janice please read my original post, It's not the content I'm talking about but access to that content. It's a perfectly valid part of the art of photography to take images of naked forms and I'd never be against that, my only point is that since the forums are meant to be accessible to younger folk we should have somewhere to put these type of shots that can be kept seperate.
It would also have the advantage that if you don't like it, don't sign up for it and you will never know it's there!
What's the big problem with nipples?
photostar_1
21-01-2007, 18:36
I've already posted my opinion in the other thread, so I'll just say: I prefer not to even accidently come across these kind of shots, so a seperate section would get my vote.
Matt Charlton
21-01-2007, 18:50
My take on it:
The thread was labelled up as "Warning 18+". All of the other nude shot threads have also been labelled up as nude/implied/not safe for work.
We've had issues similar to this in the past but in regards to pictures I've taken of animals at the zoo, ruins at Bolton Abbey, all sorts of things. People stating that if they see another picture of a ruin then they'd do something or other - I can't quite remember - it would seem that the subject in the photo doesn't have to be offensive or contain the human body in any way shape or form that people don't want to see it........... anyway I digress.
I don't see a need for a seperate section of the forum, All of the photography magazines at one point or another run nude shoots without prior warning. Its not unusual to browse the magazine and see the odd nipple here and there - its part of photography and its a form of art.
I didn't see anything wrong with the post that started all of this off, to me it was just another shot, a forum member's intepretation of curves.
There was a full frontal posted a while ago which I think was probably worse than ftmftm's picture today.
I personally think that Pete's heroin pictures were worse but I wouldn't want them removing and I'm glad that I had the chance to see them.
We've got to be careful about impeding the artistic creativeness of the people who use this site, if you don't want to look at pictures of animals/ruins/breasts/whatever then don't click the thread.
A new 18 thread icon might be an idea if it contains nudity.
I don't see this place turning into a soft porn site any time soon, at the same time I don't want this form of photography being outcast by the rest of the community - you wouldn't like it if people were telling you what you could and couldn't take photos of?
Comments about seeing too many photos of a certain genre really did put me off posting pictures on here for a while, its also lead me to recommend to people that go on the meets that I've organised to not post up too many pictures at once.
/rant
Jonnyreb
21-01-2007, 18:57
Some good points made there Matt.
I was a little disappointed to see the very harsh criticism of technical aspects of the shot which is not what i've come to expect from this forum.
Irrespective of the subject matter lets please be wary of discouraging fellow members. We all shoot at different levels of competence and will only improve with help, advice and constuctive criticism.
I thought the shot itself was fine... technically speaking...just didnt need that "little bit extra"! :lol:
minimeeze
21-01-2007, 19:01
Better not post any pics here of my intended nude shoot then had I? :lol: Wouldn't want to upset anyone ;)
Matt Charlton
21-01-2007, 19:03
Better not post any pics here of my intended nude shoot then had I? :lol: Wouldn't want to upset anyone ;)
See now look what you lot have done!! :'(
:p
hypnotic
21-01-2007, 19:06
Better not post any pics here of my intended nude shoot then had I? :lol: Wouldn't want to upset anyone ;)
Tease!
:canon:
Double_Agent
21-01-2007, 19:16
Each to their own. Those that were signing up to Arkady's model shoot might have included Nude shooting from the models as well so I am seeing certain hypocritical comments coming in here.
suffice to say I think a rule of bare all or bare none at all should be applied. Take for instance, a mother in public feeding her baby from her breast is seen as ok in some minds but not others. A woman baring her breast in public without child is a big no no and seen as exhibitionism. Both show the breast but one has a purpose whereas the other doesnt.
Portraying the same in picture form can be said the same and as long as the model has concented to the picture and actioned a release for it to be shown on the internet, then it is surely ok. MODS are there to make the rules. Make them clear and strick to them. This has to be a black and white issue to resolve by themods. No shades of grey can exist.
RickMezza
21-01-2007, 19:17
Keeping the rules as they are would get my vote. :thumbs:
I'm not into the usual posed glamour type shots that some folk post here from time to time, but thats just down to my personal taste.
Obviously there is a a line to be drawn somewhere and the rules that the moderators have stated seem to be very clear, plus I'd trust the mods to remove any pics which overstep the mark promptly :)
Matt Charlton
21-01-2007, 20:06
From the rules that Matty just bumped and stickied:
ALL NUDES OR SHOTS WITH IMPLIED NUDITY MUST HAVE A NSFW/18+ LABEL ON THE THREAD TITLE
if you are offended by this sort of shot then you are given the choice to click the link or not.
Sums it up pretty well in my opinion - The threads should be properly labelled and if you don't want to look at them, don't click on them. I think the shots belong in the people forum however.
From the rules that Matty just bumped and stickied:
Sums it up pretty well in my opinion - The threads should be properly labelled and if you don't want to look at them, don't click on them. I think the shots belong in the people forum however.
Oh Matt, come on thats hardly fair!
I never thought Id find anything to disagree with you about but, here, I do.
Even with a properly labelled thread, there still has to be a line, a cut off point as to what is/isnt acceptable ... its just deciding where it is and what suits the majority.
What you have to remember here is that for the most part, the majority here are guys but the site is growing and gradually thats changing.
Ive only ever reported an image once in all the time Ive used the net.
It was on another forum. Some guy had posted a pic of his 3 yr old son, just come out the bath, naked as the day he was born. He'd flaked out on the floor, a cushion underneath his butt and the light highlighting all his little bits for the world to see. The guy had posted the image thinking it funny but it received a barrage of complaints, myself included because something just looked plain wrong about it.
It just shows that there has to be some sort of line drawn somewhere, not matter how you title the thread.
I also feel that David's image today looked 'wrong'.
I appreciate the female form as much as a lot of you guys here do, believe me, but David's picture was unflattering to the model to the point of distasteful.
When we begin to see the gentilia splayed in such a fashion as that, even when partly covered, it starts to verge on soft porn (no offence David).
Maybe its a female thing, I dont know.
Its good that we can debate this, and probably necessary ... especial with Min's impending nude shoot coming up! :popcorn:
photostar_1
21-01-2007, 20:53
:agree: With Inaglo.
i cant comment on the thread as i didnt see the picture, but we are debating the rules at the moment, we are missing a mod or 2 but we will come to an agreement on what we find potentially offensive and deal accordingly, it looks liek CT did the best thing in this case, but like i said i cant comment as i didnt see it.
Here's my take without having the chance to see the subject for myself (although I've been following this thread all day from work hoping that I could find out for myself when I get home)
Firstly, TPF is never going to turn into a "Porno" site. There's far too many landscapes for that.
Secondly, who goes to a photography forum to look for porn when google will throw the stuff at you with the simplest of requests.
Thirdly, filling in an online form is no garauntee (sp) that the person is over 18. It just means that if they are under 18 they're too dumb to go to google and look for the real thing.
You could put warnings on threads like an 18 symbol or even a different forum for this type of stuff. People will still go in there regardless out of curiosity and then claim outrage despite all the warnings. If I remember rightly only one person has said they were offended, everyone else wasn't that impressed but wasn't going to lose any sleep over it which says a lot about how reasonable and tolerant people are here.
Rock and roll
That rule would seriously suck!
*makes a fake account pretending to be a 40-year-old man*
and Janice makes a fake account pretending to be a 17 year old girl!! ;) :lol:
as an end to this thread, Steep, we will discuss a seperate section in the staff room, its an idea for us to consider
Matt Charlton
21-01-2007, 22:06
Oh Matt, come on thats hardly fair!
I never thought Id find anything to disagree with you about but, here, I do.
Even with a properly labelled thread, there still has to be a line, a cut off point as to what is/isnt acceptable ... its just deciding where it is and what suits the majority.
What you have to remember here is that for the most part, the majority here are guys but the site is growing and gradually thats changing.
Glo, the majority don't have to click on the link is all I'm saying - of course there has to be a line as to what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable.
Ive only ever reported an image once in all the time Ive used the net.
It was on another forum. Some guy had posted a pic of his 3 yr old son, just come out the bath, naked as the day he was born. He'd flaked out on the floor, a cushion underneath his butt and the light highlighting all his little bits for the world to see. The guy had posted the image thinking it funny but it received a barrage of complaints, myself included because something just looked plain wrong about it.
Oh come on, its hardly fair to compare the image of an adult woman bent over with more on show than some people found to be acceptable to a picture of a naked child - thats extremely unfair to David and what he was trying to achieve by sharing the photo in the first place.
The two scenarios are completely different and can't be used to draw comparisons I'm afraid.
It just shows that there has to be some sort of line drawn somewhere, not matter how you title the thread.
I also feel that David's image today looked 'wrong'.
I appreciate the female form as much as a lot of you guys here do, believe me, but David's picture was unflattering to the model to the point of distasteful.
When we begin to see the gentilia splayed in such a fashion as that, even when partly covered, it starts to verge on soft porn (no offence David).
Maybe its a female thing, I dont know.
There can be as many pictures of naked men up in the people sharing and critique forums as people want to post up, provided they are labelled properly it'd be fine - I just wouldn't look at them because the male form doesn't interest me in the slightest. I'm sure plenty of the other members of the site would love to look at them though.
Ahhhhhhhh? but would they love to look because they appreciate the male form or becasue they got lost on the way to google Matt?
Can I just say once again and in closing, that this thread was NOT intended to be about what should or should not be posted! It was about where it should be posted.
Heatherlou
21-01-2007, 22:46
I belong to another forum here in the states called, oddly enough, TPF, Texas Photo Forum LOL. There, we are having a discussion simular to this, only about a serious critiques section. I dont know what the laws are in the UK, but on that forum, they HAD to have the nudes in a separate section, (damn american prudes :) ) Anyway, that section has been on that forum since it began 2 years ago and it is a great section and "smut" has never been an issue. They have it set up that all you have to do is fill out a form requesting permission to go to that section, and the only requirement is that you be over 18. Dont know if that helps, but its my 2 cents worth.
Can I just say once again and in closing, that this thread was NOT intended to be about what should or should not be posted! It was about where it should be posted.
:lol: Good try at trying to keep this thread on track, but I don't think the people are listening. :lol:
I didn't see the photo myself, but I thought ftmftm have been meticulously labelling his thread titles, so CAUTION to the person opening the thread has been given. It's like film rating by the BBFC. They give you a guideline what you might see in a film. If you are in doubt, you wouldn't go see it. You would be outraged if they dictated what films you can and cannot see.
I think the current rules are as good as it gets.
Though Steep's idea is pretty good and people might have to "apply" to the mods to have permission to view this new section of the forum so that no one "accidentally" opens a thread and become outraged. If you apply, you sign away your right to complain. :nuts:
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