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Well matt has lined up for us to photograph someones wedding a week on saturday, I personally am a bit nervous about it, dont want to make a mess of it, there is another photographer they have booked who is taking 35 shots (so they have told matt) we are going to take some extra, matt says he is going to take similar shots to the other photographer and suggested I tried some more candid, natural shots. I arent sure what sort of thing this includes, anyone got some they can show/share withme. Also all advice very welcome, as I am getting worried and it is over a week away.
He has also arrange to do a wedding next August which sounds like it is going to be set up very similar to our wedding getting married in the same place as us and then photos in the park follow the ceremony which is the same place as ours were taken so know the area and what the shots will look like.
Take every single bit of kit you own, just incase. If need be, leave the spares in the car, fully charged, but to hand ;)
Do we need the 100-400 ???? They could stay in the car I guess. Got a new card so should have plenty of memory.
...there is another photographer they have booked who is taking 35 shots (so they have told matt) we are going to take some extra, matt says he is going to take similar shots to the other photographer and suggested I tried some more candid, natural shots.
35 shots? Interesting concept, I'm sure it will catch on....
Make sure all your batteries are charged (including spares), memory cards are formatted and ready to go, shoot in RAW as it will give you more flexibility when it comes to PP. If you have to change your ISO for shooting indoors remember to switch it back when you go outside, this I learnt from bitter experience at my first wedding. ;)
As to candid shots, try and stick on something like a 70-200mm and watch from the periphery, you will be able to get some great ones without the subjects knowing. Before the ceremony try and concentrate on the groom, best man immediate family and any obvious 'characters'.
I've tended to concentrate on the candid shots on weddings I've done and you will be able to do the same as there is no pressure, they have an official photographer so anything on top is a bonus. Above all try and relax and enjoy the day, it is exhausting yet exhilarating at the same time.
Here are a few examples:
Wedding #1 (http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=10090&highlight=wedding)
Wedding #2 (http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=10546&highlight=wedding)
Wedding #3 (http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=21600&highlight=wedding)
Matt Charlton
27-04-2007, 12:39
Thanks for the tips guys, we're going to need to pick up as many tips and practise our backsides off before the day.
Basically the other tog is going to be there for two hours and will take 36 shots - they have had to pick the 36 shots that they would like and have therefore had to sacrifice many shots that they wanted.
Shes already paid out about £450 for him and I know how I felt after I found out about costs and things after our wedding last year.
Basically the deal is this....We'll go for the wedding, the whole thing, the day, the meal, the reception, the night do and we'll take photos - Sue can maybe concentrate on candids whilst I do the structured stuff if she'd prefer that. I'll mirror some of the shots from the official tog and will do whatever she wants me to get as well - I've given her the list that Tom put up in another thread, he only has his mum and she has mum, dad and stepdad so there are going to be photos they don't want because some of the family relationships aren't that great.
I'm going to bring in the DVD on monday that we got given with all of our shots on it, as well as our wedding album so that she can see what we were given and what we chose as a result.
Because she's already laid out for a photographer what I've said is probably £50 for the day for the actual being there (more than fine for me at this stage - its the first attempt and its not fair for her to fork out for two photographers). I'm going to give her the prints at pretty much cost price and do some photobooks too probably for relatives - I might add a couple of quid on here and there, I've also said that I will give her a CD with high quality JPGs once the initial print is done which gives her the ability to get her own reprints done. I will retain copyright and the pictures will go into our portfolio but as far as return business goes, I don't care - she'll only scan the photos in and do it that way anyway (we didn't do that honest).
As a result, shes said that she would like it if we would put business cards out on the table, she isn't allowing the other tog to do this.
I know its not standard practice to give away the photos, its not the way its always going to be. As far as I'm concerned, its free experience for me and Sue in a low pressure environment, they have a photographer and have paid a fair whack for him to do a job. If we manage to get 30 or so shots from the day that are good shots I'll be happy with that (we'll take plenty more I would wager). By charging a low fee (£50 + free meals), the expectations will be low which means we can sort of underpromise and overdeliver (something I love doing).
That was from the 1st training session I delivered, came about as I was talking about photography and she said it was a shame she didn't know sooner and was already upset about the lack of photos being taken - thats a very bad way to do business, theres no way someone should be regretting it before the event (or after for that matter).
In the 2nd training session I picked up a PC repair job, PC riddled with spyware, getting that sorted next week and get my tea made for me (told her £10 per hour, £20 minimum charge, which is my standard for home visits - I'm cheap).
In the 3rd Training session, I think I might have picked up a wedding for August 08 - the mother of a girl who is getting married in a similar setup to us - same registry office, wanting to go to the park we had our photos done in and even using the same car company so it'll be the same wedding cars.
Now this one will be a different boat, we'll have more experience by then and I've told her that I will charge her a fair price and have also mentioned the cd with high quality pics on - I'd like that to be our trademark. The biggest gripe I have is that someone else owns our wedding photos and I have to pay over and above what I should for reprints (okay you could call it payback for processing done with the initial lot - that should be budgeted for there and then). I wanted a tog who would sell me the copyright, they wanted to charge a hell of a lot more for it, the photos will be in the portfolio obviously, but I have no need to keep ownership of them entirely and giving free high quality jps might seem like commercial suicide - I'd rather keep this job on in IT, do weddings at the weekend and be reccommended by people and have a great reputation. I know some might not agree with the plan but I'm going to see how it goes first :)
Thats a long post :o
Matt Charlton
27-04-2007, 12:42
I was going to say also - I'll be treating next week as a huge oppertunity to get experience without the pressure, It's a 12 hour day (if we stay till the end) and all the photo processing for £50, but if we do a good job, it should open some doors.
I'm really buzzing at the moment :)
Ok easy for matt, he can wear the suit he got married in all been well ;) but what should I wear??
Matt Charlton
27-04-2007, 12:57
your nice red top that you got the other week, thats nice.
Hmmmmm maybe an excuse to go shopping :) no I am sure I must have something.
Milestone
27-04-2007, 13:14
Ok easy for matt, he can wear the suit he got married in all been well ;) but what should I wear??
Without the trainers, IIRC :D
Matt Charlton
27-04-2007, 13:15
Oh yeah, shoes for 12 hours :P
your memory is far too good milestone :p
I managed to wear my wedding shoes for most of the day, but wore some flat ones for the evening, I wear my work shoes for over 12 hours a day, so I should be ok. Dont know if matt will cope with his shoes for over 12 hours.
Matt Charlton
27-04-2007, 13:49
I might be doing another wedding in 4 weeks, a muslim 2-day event, which could be extremely interesting.
Wow its been a funny old day
hypnotic
27-04-2007, 18:28
Matt .... Is the other photographer aware that you will also be there next week doing your Gary Fong bit.
Some don't like other togs there ..... You need to check! (Before the day)
He may lose out on repeat sales etc if your shots are good or better than his.
:canon:
Just noticed you said they've prepicked 36 shots. I bet he takes many many more than that.
Its just that he'll be working to a set plan, and he has 36 types of shots to present the couple with afterwards, which is actually about right (I think)
Matt Charlton
27-04-2007, 19:20
Matt .... Is the other photographer aware that you will also be there next week doing your Gary Fong bit.
Some don't like other togs there ..... You need to check! (Before the day)
He may lose out on repeat sales etc if your shots are good or better than his.
:canon:
As far as I'm aware there isn't a contract that says he has exclusivity - thats for him to deal with. I'm acting on request of the Bride who has booked him also, my dad was standing next to our tog at our wedding taking similar shots, he didn't say anything.
Thats not too harsh is it?
I dunno, I don't want to step on his toes, but at the same time I'm concerned that the Bride is regretting the photographer before a single shot has been taken.
Hmmmm :/
Matt Charlton
27-04-2007, 19:21
Just noticed you said they've prepicked 36 shots. I bet he takes many many more than that.
Its just that he'll be working to a set plan, and he has 36 types of shots to present the couple with afterwards, which is actually about right (I think)
He has 10 signature shots, the other 26 are ones they had to pick, they've had to decide which they do and don't want.
The tog is only there for 2 hours, Sue and I will be there all day.
hypnotic
27-04-2007, 19:46
Matt .... This is not something you can take a chance on the day and hope it is alright.
If you are taking the same sort of posed shots that he is ... He may well object ..... I would!
Find out who he is and ask him directly.
Well done on getting the jobs Matt - sounds like you're putting some work into this!
As far as the "mirror" shots from those that the other 'tog is taking, remember that you won't be able to get much if any eye contact in the ones you take - the other chap almost certainly will object if he has problems getting his shots because the guests and wedding party are being distracted by you - even if not deliberately. I've done one of these before although as a freebie for a friend - I was with her right from getting ready at the start of the day - (now THAT is something for Sue maybe if the bride agrees? Lovely chance to get some of the classic "Bride" shots and she'd probably feel relaxed with a woman more than a man too as she's getting herself ready...) and as a result I got a good few shots for them which were different to the normal formal stuff. I'm doing the same thing again at my cousin's wedding in July too which should be good fun. :)
*edit*
Just looking through my photo album I've just remembered that I have also done one following the groom through the day which was a bit different - this was my other half's best friend and was a terrifically formal wedding but some of the candid shots I came out with were rather nice and the couple loved them because they were a totally different view of the day. Sometimes a slightly offbeat view of things can provide good results.
Make sure you don't injure any of the guests / public with any of your kit etc, else you could be having an expensive day out.
Mate of mine did a wedding (thats his profession) and a guest "fell" over his foot in the church, it resulted in his insurance company paying out £10K to settle out of court.
Keltic Ice Man
29-04-2007, 20:33
Make sure you don't injure any of the guests / public with any of your kit etc, else you could be having an expensive day out.
Mate of mine did a wedding (thats his profession) and a guest "fell" over his foot in the church, it resulted in his insurance company paying out £10K to settle out of court.
Is there a quick way of getting this sort of insurance - as a just in case?
Matt & Sue - when it comes to cropping at the post processing - remember to crop to 3:2 - see my other thread - otherwise you end up with loads of questions about white borders.
Matt, you really need to check the other tog out and the probs with exclusivity etc - you don't want a bad rep before you start.
Sounds like you are really looking forward to this. Hope everything goes really well for you.
In terms of insurance - this is not expensive. Approx £70 for third party cover for the year. We live in a litigious society and you can never be too careful.
Matt Charlton
30-04-2007, 05:40
The other tog is, as I understand it in the same boat as me - he does wedding photography on the side (well, not quite the same boat as me then).
I've been invited to the wedding by the bride, we're guests and we have DSLRs, thats all the other guy needs to know. He's there to do a job and we're there to do the rest.
I'll probably look into insurance today at some point.
Hi Matt & Sue
Last July I attended my Sister-in-Law's wedding as a guest - very similar conversation we had to that you mentioned above. The location was Hexham racecourse in Northumberland.
The official photographer had an assistant that p********d not only me off, but other guests trying to get any shot as they must have rehearsed where the assistant should stand to block anyone else's view. It appeared towards the end of the evening, non of the guests got decent photos. He was rather arrogant and the photographs he took (all film) were not that brilliant. Unfortunately, the compositions on mine were awful. I did manage some good candid ones when he was busy fussing over another group shot.
Matt Charlton
30-04-2007, 12:54
Hi Gilly, thanks for letting us know we're not the only ones who have similar predicaments.
I've had a chat with the bride today and told her that I might stay out of the official guys way. Apparently its him and his wife - I think his wife does the organisation of people. It depends on the guy and his wife on the day and how the atmosphere is, if he starts getting funny then I'll back off and just start doing my own thing, I'll just walk back a bit and mount the 100-400 and shoot over his shoulder from 20ft back ;)
I also have the list of the 36 shots that he is taking. They were told 36 shots, so they wrote down and agreed on 36 must have shots. I gave her the list that JL put up the other week and she's ticked a couple of those that she'd like too.
She said that everyone else will have a camera and will be taking pictures - we are no different and can take pictures of what we want and who we want. They paid £500 for the tog and are only getting prints - no album. She thought that was cheap.
For £500 we got 45 prints in a beautiful hand bound album from 103 available shots, with special pictures from the hotel where sue was getting ready with bridesmaids and her mum and dad. Now that really was extremely cheap when I put it into perpective.
I've found someone else's wedding site where he sells a CD with the prints on with a personal reprint license for £125 which I think is more than reasonable. Thats probably something I'll work into my packages once we're off the ground (if we do get off the ground).
I'm going to buy Rona Cox's start up photography course to cover the business side of things and I've sorted out an account with an album company/sorting out one with colab.
I've also now got the Public Liability Insurance.
We'll see how it plays out :)
Matt Charlton
30-04-2007, 13:01
The guy who did our photos has just gotten back to me with the name of the software he used to create our proof-cd slide shows, Pictures to EXE, only $30 for a business license too.
Now all I need to know is the place we are going and maybe plan a visit before hand to see what it is like. Any more tips and ideas would be great. Especially as I have never used a flash on my camera and dont want to look like a complete idiot on the day.
Matt, Sue, I would recommend approaching the tog before anything happens and telling him of your intentions. Be courteous and polite and let him know that you would be grateful if you could learn from him. This may massage his ego enough to 'work with you'.
In between his shots you guys are going to need the party looking at you. Whilst you don't want to ruin his shots (by taking the pictures at the same time and people looking in different directions), he may get a tad upset that you are prolonging his time - after all, he may indeed have another wedding to go to.
Good luck on the day though and hope it turns out really well - have you asked the Bride and Groom if you are able to post the pictures on the Internet for all to see as part of your portfolio (and a record of the day for us here interested in your work? :))
hypnotic
30-04-2007, 19:51
Sounds like you are getting it all covered now :clap:
Main thing is to relax.
I would check out the venues beforehand .... At the same time as the big day. Check the suns position.
Look into making a good slideshow from your shots .... Always goes down well. I use proshow gold but there are a few programs about.
Best of luck to you both.
We all want to see the results.
:canon:
Matt - I take it that you have business use on your car insurance? Worth considering if not because if the worst happened with all your kit in the car even if you have cover for personal possessions in the vehicle if the insurance co gets wind of the fact that it was being used for a business (not your regular employment) they won't pay out for any damaged kit, and might not pay out on anything else that's not third party either.
Matt Charlton
03-05-2007, 09:46
Domestic, Pleasure and commuting. Fully comp.
Seeing as though we don't actually have a business at present I don't think its an issue, commuting would cover it because we're going to the place, parking up and staying there all day, the kit will be with us all day, not leaving anything in the boot :)
But we're going to this one as guests anyway just guests with DSLRs ;)
Good point though and something to think about in the future, thankyou :)
Don't forget to take your camera, good luck.
Whens the event take place?
Matt Charlton
03-05-2007, 10:33
Saturday
Well I went and looked around the place yesterday around the time we would be there for the actual wedding, much the same to see as on the website http://www.hoylecourt.co.uk/Hoyle_Court/index.htm there is no big tree which to provide shade around lunch time, so will have to see on the day.
Looking forward to this, fingers crossed I manage ok with my flash.
namllihs
04-05-2007, 12:15
Good luck with this you two.:thumbs:
Matt Charlton
05-05-2007, 21:07
Thanks everyone for the words of support.
We got on really well today - nerves settled down once we got started and I think we've come away with some good shots.
The official tog seemed like a nice bloke - his wife (the boss) was terrible. I'd had a little chat with him about the light and things and she'd been giving us filthy looks. I stayed out of the way whilst they were taking their structured shots, the bride arrived and they had no shots planned of her getting out of the car so I stepped up to take some, and he moved into shot...oh well he probably didn't realise I was there - nevermind.
I left a lot of the shots alone because I didn't think it was fair to the official tog/and the shot was one they would have anyway until it came to the ones with the car in the background - it was something I wouldn't be able to replicate later in the day but rather than getting a shot of what they were taking, I'd take half of the photo - so the bride and groom rather than the bride, groom and bridesmaids - just for something different.
I did this twice and stood behind and to the side of the tog, well out of his way. Sue had already had a nice chat with her and had said that we didn't want to get in the way, etc - being really nice - at this time, sue was in the room for the ceremony and I was outside getting arrival shots...anyway - After these two shots his wife approached me and said "would you mind not copying out shots please?"
It wasn't a nice question either - there was a lot of snobbishness and nastyness in the question - probably because of the size of the 30d/grip/580ex/fong - it looks like a monster.
I replied with "I'm in a public place and I can take pictures of what I like, thank you very much" - A little nasty of me I know, but she'd ****ed me off (its amazing how easy it is to do that to me at the moment). So she carried on "well, they're paying for the poses blah de blah" - and I said well yeah, they've already paid for them, I'm just trying to get additional shots to complement what they're getting from you. The bride then chipped in and said she wanted me to be able to take shots but she wasn't having any of it - I backed down completely (I didn't want her day ruined after all) and I left them to it.
Once I'd stopped taking photos she was nice as pie, chatting to me, asking if I did it as a hobby, etc. Talked about working together and how they wouldn't get in the way of any shots we were taking. And how I could take shots once we were round the back because everyone takes shots there.
I let them go off into the room and the ceremony took place and I was busy getting shots of the reception room whilst it was nice and empty. After they'd come out, I purposefully stood out of the way and didn't take photos - I didn't want any additional confrontation and they were just that way out. Sue did take some of the shots (after all, she'd only asked me not to take any shots :P) There was another lady there with a fuji compact with a fixed lens who was also taking shots with us.
Apparently in the ceremony the wife had been looking at the mirror at the front and had moved in the way of anyone attempting to take a photo - when we were out in the garden at the back she attempted the same. So much for working together professionally ;)
Some of the lighting positions they used with the bride sitting on the grass in bright sunshine I wouldn't have dared attempt (metering nightmare).
I came away with some usual shots but was frustrated that I didn't get access to the shots I wanted to take - at our wedding last year the tog had no problems whatsoever with people standing next to him taking what he was taking and he was a lovely bloke.
I don't think I'd be able to be secondary photographer at a wedding again, but I think we could handle the setup on our own - our tog did lots of things with hands and the way the dress fell and things like that - these just told them where to stand.
Oh and the reason they were only getting 36 shots?............the tog was shooting on a minolta film body - even more of a nightmare for that metering (blown out dress anyone?). At least with digital you can see whats going on if you've taken a shot - unless he's just that good that he knows whats going to come out of the camera rain or shine. The bride's mother also said they didn't get a contract/invoice and wanted paying cash (tax dodging anyone?). Oh well, thats enough of a slating, we'll judge them by their pictures when they come back, I just hope they've done the lovely couple justice.
I felt a lot more relaxed once they'd gone, and was able to get around and do what I wanted - Sue felt the same.
All in all a great day out and it didn't feel like work - we got to soak up the atmosphere and enjoy it, it was also fun because its the first wedding we've been to since we got married last year :)
Cards were out by the guestbook and we've had a few people asking about portraits so we'll see how we get on.
Matt Charlton
05-05-2007, 21:11
And I'm not criticising film in any way shape or form - its just in the digital age, I couldn't shoot a wedding and leave not having seen what I've taken. I hope the shots are great, I really do.
Well done Matt and Sue.
I think you did the honourable thing by stepping out of the way and hope that your good nature wins you some of those portrait commissions....you both deserve it.
Hope the photos turn out well for you.
I think from what you have written that the day has actually boosted your confidence.
Well done once again.
Matt Charlton
05-05-2007, 21:20
I apologised to the bride later too, and she said oh no don't be sorry, I was right there with you. Impressed she was not.
We had nice overcast skies to bright blasting down sunshine too - it was a right funny old day, but lovely weather overall.
Really glad it all went well for you. :)
Now just got to load them all into the computer, and do something with them, see if I actually got any good ones :)
Congratulations to you & Sue for getting through the day, hope the images turn out great :thumbs:
Minolta film body? Must be a god-like genious:thumbs:
Glad you had a good day overall. If I've learnt anything about photography over the last six months it's that trying anything new for the first time it never goes as well as you'd hoped. That's what the 2nd time is for.;)
Congratulations both of you :thumbs: TFS the story of how the day went. Will you be posting some of the pics from the day so we can see how you got on?
Matt Charlton
06-05-2007, 08:59
We've got over 100 shots we're happy with (given 5 stars in LR). I deleted about 137 shots, still have ovee 350, sue still has over 450 shots.
I screwed up lots of my shots with the spot metering - I thought I was metering from the face but it looks like a few of them I messed up (a lot were grab shots so I didn't spend as long setting up, testing and retaking as I would have liked to). Can bring quite a few of them back in LR though (thats what RAW is for eh).
What I'll do is once we've gotten together the ones we want to use and have PPed them I'll put the slideshow exe in a zip and then host it on my website - then you can download it and look at how we did :)
Not got many of the structured shots, as I say the official tog did a good job of not letting anyone "copy their shots". The bride wanted more candid and relaxed stuff and by being there from before we got underway until about 9pm gave us a chance to capture emotions from all over the day.
I think if we did get into it properly I'd offer that as a service - if they fed and watered us we'd stay all day, gives more to pick from that way, doesn't it?
It's certainly an idea Matt but if you were looking to do this in any sort of professional way you would also need to factor in the cost of your time - it sounds like a good idea in principle but the more shots you take then the more time you also take doing the PP afterwards....I know that you may say that it also increases the number of shots you might sell but in honesty most couples will have a budget that they can afford to spend on additional shots and while they will exceed it by some, it won't be by a huge amount. Again, friends and family will buy some but whether it would be enough to make it worth two of you with all the attendant work for, in effect, several days, only you can decide.
Matt Charlton
06-05-2007, 09:11
I don't know, I think it helped us to get into the spirit of the day too, gave us a chance to chat to the guests and find out what they were wanting and things like that - it just made it more personal.
I see what you're saying about time and budgetary constraints though.
I knew I was having a bad shoot yesterday - I could tell from the LCDs that Sue was getting shots that were way better than mine, just couldn't get myself into that zone. I guess its why I felt a bit more relaxed - I knew with two of us taking photos we'd come away with similar shots half of the time but that we'd come away with usuable shots if one of us cocked up with it.
If we were to go semi pro, and keep on the jobs we currently have, we could afford to do the whole day thing at not a lot of cost, it didn't feel like we were working, it felt like we were at a wedding taking photos.
There is also an unspoken truth about perceived value. As some of you may be aware, I run a very well known website. I lowered my fees to £10 and sales decreased. Increased to a minimum of £19 through to £49 and sales increased. A marketing friend told me that people have a perceived value...."oh, it's cheap so it's not very good.".
I think you have to strike a balance though. I am sure that the quality of any shots will win you repeat business. But as Robyn (Witch) says you need to value your time as well, especially after what you were talking about in a previous post (career etc).
chuckles
06-05-2007, 11:07
I'm glad you've enjoyed yourselves. Most weddings are a joy to photograph, you get the occassional odd-ball that isn't - but that's life! Very different when it's the other way round.... I don't mind people attempting to copy our shots, we're just confident that they won't get the same results. Eyes in the wrong direction, not looking at the guys in charge. Each to their own.
I wouldn't put down a guy using film. A number of Pro togs are returning to film. Hugely better dynamic range over digital and the definition is phenomenal when using medium format (ask hoodi!). And if a photographer knows his craft then he doesn't need to take so many shots :shrug:
It's a case of confidence.... I've shot loads of weddings using film and the only time I got worried was when I sent them away for processing. Tamed a local photofinisher and things were a lot calmer. Always used to split the processing between two processing houses as well. Why don't I still use film? So inconvenient and I can "get away" with using digital.
Still, I don't intend to put a damper on your efforts, I applaud them. It does take courage and good on you two for giving it a bash! :clap:
I only ever did weddings with film. :shrug:
Perhaps you should judge this guy's abilities when you can do what he did - shoot 36 exposures and be confident you've got a result. I bet he wasn't posting on an internet forum the night before asking how to use his flashgun either. ;)
I never minded people crowding around me when I set up shots as long as they didn't get in my way. Given the equipment I was using and the pro lab I sent the film to, the other pics were unlikely to be any threat anyway. Colab actually print a code number on the back of each print so you can
ascertain how close you've got to the perfect exposure. Despite all that it was always a huge relief to get your prints back and find you hadn't cocked up anywhere, no matter how many times you did it.
Digital photography is a wonderful thing - I'm a total convert since the early days when it didn't really hack it, but the inverted snobbery often levelled at film these days is laughable.
Sorry Matt I think you need to read this whole thread through.. your approach to the job, your attitude to the main tog before you'd even met him and have a good think about whether you think it's a good attitude with which to be approaching your first wedding?
Matt Charlton
06-05-2007, 12:04
I didn't know what kind of camera he was using or whether it was film or digital until they'd finished shooting their shots and his camera wound itself up.
I don't have anything against film, I just wouldn't have wanted to shoot in the light he was shooting in and at the angles.
And if he was that good, he'd provide invoices, not insist on cash only payments and not have the subjects staring into the sun squinting.
We've got lots to do to get these pictures ready for Tuesday so I'm not going to bother getting into a debate about my attitude, my snobbishness towards film or other photographers. You weren't there cedric, what I type in a thread is the only indication as to what happened, my attitude was spot on, I just needed to vent about the tog's wife - as I said, he was fine. I stayed out of their way, putting up with filthy looks from her and then decided to take a couple of shots to note the poses and things and how they used the cars. Then she told me to stay away, after I made it clear I would then she was nice as pie.
And I hope from the bottom of my heart that he is a genius and he does get decent prints - because of some of the poses and people, thats all the couple will have.
I posted for advice, to give the couple the best I could possibly do, is that not what I should be doing they were aware it was our first wedding and happy with that. I hope that everything turned out right for them including photos taken by the prof tog, it is one day and should be remembered that way by them, we were asked to be there to help them to be able to do this, she was happy for us to be there and wanted us to be taking the same shots as him and more, he himself was fine about it (most of the time) and we both tried to keep out of his way, however I have to agree with matt that his wife would deliberately try to stand in anyones why (not just ours) who was trying to take shots at the same time everyone noticed it, other guests came up to me later in the day to say what she was doing was wrong. I have managed to get some similar shots, but tried to lower my camera before he took his shot so people would look at him and also zoom in on various people in the groups to give different shots. At times the Bride was telling people to look at me, so thats not my fault. I would not have the confidence to take film shots while there, and in todays age of digital even with lots more experience I dont think I ever would, my feeling is too much of a risk, I am not against film cameras and anyone who uses them.
Well I sincerely hope that both his shots and yours are excellent! :thumbs:
Not sure what invoices have to do with his abilities mind you. :D
Peace mate, but this is a photographic board and the casual visitor could get the wrong impression of what we're about altogether from your thread. Professionalism is a grossly devalued word these days anyway, but before you even consider turning pro you should be able to answer flash questions rather than be asking them. Everyone has to start somewhere of course but they'd be well advised to do so with a sound grasp of the basic techniques.
digitalfailure
06-05-2007, 12:29
my wedding day was a scorching hot day and the tog used film, his shots were great apart from having me in them, so my hat goes off to people who can get the most out of the format. Like you Sue, I could never go back to film and be comfortable with what I was doing.
Our tog was a real git tbh, he even told a close friend off for taking shots of the formals, I was happy about that in some respect as I'd paid the tog to do a job :D
good luck with the images, everyones got to start somewhere.
are you planning to post any?
We are planning to, as matt posted earlier I think, once we have got them processed we are putting a link up to website for people to look at them :)
digitalfailure
06-05-2007, 12:34
:thumbs:
If I was a paid phot on a wedding and some guest tried to poach my set-ups, I'd put his head down a toilet. No S***.
If he/they/you wanted to re-create the set-ups after I'd finished, fine, but shooting over my shoulder, or asking the guests to 'just look this way while I...' before I did the next set-up? No way.
You'd get a thud in the cobblers, mate. I'd also have a word with the Clients about it.
I'm adding to this as it sounded a bit harsh when I re-read it.
I think the phot's wife was doing what she considered right to protect their business interests - it doesn't matter that the Bride had asked you to take extra photos - to me and any other Professional photographer this is just a cheap way of getting extra images of the wedding. They were only paying £450 for the photographer, which isn't a lot these days - my rates for weddings used to start at £750 - ten years ago.
I know we'd all like to side with our fellow forum readers, but I really think you have no right to complain about any treatment you recieved on the day. If I'd been the official photographer and I'd found another paid photographer stealing my set-ups, I'd have been bloody furious.
Irritable_Rabbit
08-05-2007, 10:44
If I was a paid phot on a wedding and some guest tried to poach my set-ups, I'd put his head down a toilet. No S***.
If he/they/you wanted to re-create the set-ups after I'd finished, fine, but shooting over my shoulder, or asking the guests to 'just look this way while I...' before I did the next set-up? No way.......snip......I know we'd all like to side with our fellow forum readers, but I really think you have no right to complain about any treatment you recieved on the day. If I'd been the official photographer and I'd found another paid photographer stealing my set-ups, I'd have been bloody furious.
I've been keeping my eye on this thread and I have to say there has been some reluctance on my part to post what might appear to be an unpopular view here especially as I'm a little new and people DO like to support their forum buddies... Which is okay as far as it goes.
So it pleases me immensely that Arkady has posted his reply which echoes some of my feelings about the whole venture and saves me much typing.
So here's an :agree: emoticon.
I'm the resident Gene Hunt...
Rhyming Slang, perhaps?
Irritable_Rabbit
08-05-2007, 10:58
I'm the resident Gene Hunt...
Rhyming Slang, perhaps?
:lol:
Well I like the style. Somebody has to say it like it is.
I'm hoping to develop a similar style that allows me to post the following one day.
"Your picture is cr@p. There's no hope. Sell your gear and give up. I'd take up knitting if were you". :D
:lol:
Well I like the style. Somebody has to say it like it is.
I'm hoping to develop a similar style that allows me to post the following one day.
"Your picture is cr@p. There's no hope. Sell your gear and give up. I'd take up knitting if were you". :D
I did that. People left. Crying. And took up knitting. My favourite is rubbish photos of rubbish birds in rubbishy gardens. Or dogs/cats/babies...
Back on topic. Don't undercut Pros. It's their Living.
Irritable_Rabbit
08-05-2007, 11:07
I did that. People left. Crying. And took up knitting. My favourite is rubbish photos of rubbish birds in rubbishy gardens. Or dogs/cats/babies...
Back on topic. Don't undercut Pros. It's their Living.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I'll develop a thick skin when I post rubbish photos of rubbish birds in Africa then. Which is only SLIGHTLY better.
And on topic also.
If you do get paid and manage to survive the wrath of the real pro tog, then declare your earnings! The tax office gets around to most people eventually.
I'm not sure if anyones mentioned it, but theres a good reason why it can be bad having another guy hovering taking photos while one guy is working. Eye contact. Two cameras means the people look at both so they're eye contact is all over the shop on one image. I can fully appreciate that the guy's wife was telling you to back off.
Also after you having a go at me on IRC about what I said, which I admit was wrong of me, its a little unprofessional to be doing it yourself. I love film but I know I'm really not good enough to use it professionally. I tried at a gig and the lab said the 2 rolls I shot were too under-exposed to tell where one shot started and the other finished. If I saw a film user at a wedding I'd be quite interested in their set up more than anything. Photography is light, not kit.
I do hope you've got some nice images and that its been a good experience for you both.
It's perhaps also worth pointing out that from the pro's point of view every shot you duplicate means another lost print sale so it's probably not surprising that they'll be a little upset about it.
Marianne
08-05-2007, 17:11
I love knitting.....and photography....and Arky! :naughty: you didn't mean me did you?
I'm not sure if anyones mentioned it, but theres a good reason why it can be bad having another guy hovering taking photos while one guy is working. Eye contact. Two cameras means the people look at both so they're eye contact is all over the shop on one image.
This can be a nightmare scenario. Some of the stuff I do means that not only do I have a lot of noise and a very tight timescale to contend with, but also loving mummies and daddies who want to make sure they get a lovely shot of their little treasure with their favourite rider. All well and good but their camera phone is unlikely to come up with a result quite as good as my SLR, not least when the riders are well versed in keeping their eyes fixed on me and ignoring distractions. On one occasion I actually had to borrow a set of eyes from a previous team mascot to paste into a shot! (And the parents presumably never noticed this - classic!) The kids get given a set of shots from the night so there's not really even any need for the parents to have cameras out.
Matt Charlton
24-05-2007, 07:23
Well I've just seen the shots that the "pro" has given to the lady whose wedding we shot.
I have to say that I'm rather pleased at the results we managed to put together for our first attempt. Firstly, his photos are printed at 8x6 and are all bent - that is they are arced so that they dont sit flat. I could never hand over anything that was in that condition - if it happened at the lab, you send them back to the lab and have them reprint and package them properly.
Half of the photos have people with eyes shut, many of the outdoor photos have blown highlights, two of the most important shots - the one of the two rings on fingers with the bouquet and the only shot (that they got) of the bride and groom walking down the aisle are completely out of focus.
The shot with all of the blokes on it has a giant lens flare in the top middle of the picture. She is going to ask him to sort that out for her, I told her it would have to be removed digitally using the computer so he'd have to scan it in and change it from there.
Many photos also have very dark shadows on faces - I presume this would have been sorted with fill flash like we were using?
I didn't say anything about the flaws to her other than let her point out to me and I agreed with her when she said this one there are eyes closed, that one is out of focus, etc.
The photos also have a matt finish, she was expecting gloss (or she hadn't specified either way), I know that ours were a matt finish in our album though so this might be the standard that people print to - I printed ours with a gloss finish.
So she's £500 down, without an album (that was his excuse for them being bent - they don't usually do them without an album, the cheapest he could do a spicer hallfield album for without putting any money on it was £150, I know for a fact I could remake our own wedding album and do it for about £97 including the actual prints - I didn't tell her this though) and a mediocre set of prints, the bloke really should stick to his day job, or at least embrace digital so that he can check for eyes being shut.
Now I take on board the points raised about the problems I might have caused with eye contact but Sue and I were the only ones there from the forum that day, and from seeing the results that were gained from the guy I know that my observations and concerns were rightly placed. There were only two possible shots where I might have caused problems with eye contact and they were fine (apart from lighting).
Perhaps my attitude wasn't the most professional, I was just rather annoyed that someone had paid a lot of money (compared to what we paid last year) and had put one of the most important days of their lives into the hands of someone who didn't (in my opinion) do them justice.
It does make me smile when I remember what his wife said to me on the day after she asked me to stop copying their shots, "they're paying for the poses, because as you know anyone can take a photo".
Yes, anyone can take a photo, but not everyone can take a good photo....
Are we going to see any of your Matt?
Matt Charlton
24-05-2007, 07:36
www.mattcharlton.co.uk/Jackie.zip
Thats the slideshow we gave her :)
Marianne
24-05-2007, 08:07
I get a corrupted file matt and it won't open :(
Matt Charlton
24-05-2007, 08:07
http://www.mattcharlton.co.uk/jackie.exe
Give that a go Marianne.
Matt Charlton
24-05-2007, 08:08
It should be around 65mb (I think)
Awww! spare a thought for the dinosaurs on dial-up Matt ... cant you just add a couple of your faves somewhere here?
Matt Charlton
24-05-2007, 08:22
I'll sort some 800px wide photos out later for you Glo ;)
Sorry didn't realise you were on dialup :(
Thanks Matt! :thumbs:
6 months on and SKY still have the tag on my line. No help from BT Wholesale or OFFCOM.
My begging letters & phonecalls to SKY have long since turned to phone-rage!
Alas... Im still on the dreaded dial-up :bang:
Look forward to the pics!
Congrats, there's a lot of great candid moments in there. The only thing that really stood out as a problem is that a lot of the shots had the persons head centre frame which left nearly half the frame empty :(
Matt Charlton
24-05-2007, 08:37
Thanks pxl8, I'm going to have to try and pay more attention to that, its not something that I notice, I seem to line people and things up in the centre of the frame.
I'll run some test shots and try out something different this weekend hopefully.
Matt Charlton
24-05-2007, 15:06
Here you go Glo.....
http://www.mattcharlton.co.uk/TP/wedding/1.jpg
http://www.mattcharlton.co.uk/TP/wedding/2.jpg
http://www.mattcharlton.co.uk/TP/wedding/3.jpg
http://www.mattcharlton.co.uk/TP/wedding/4.jpg
http://www.mattcharlton.co.uk/TP/wedding/5.jpg
http://www.mattcharlton.co.uk/TP/wedding/6.jpg
http://www.mattcharlton.co.uk/TP/wedding/7.jpg
http://www.mattcharlton.co.uk/TP/wedding/8.jpg
http://www.mattcharlton.co.uk/TP/wedding/9.jpg
http://www.mattcharlton.co.uk/TP/wedding/10.jpg
For those looking at the shots on the website, those of the cake with the dogde background that I tried to get rid of are all my suggestion and work, I just found the background so distracting, and I didnt know what to do about it. I will know next time to think about it more when taking the shot, and to leave as is.
The only shot of those taken at the same time as the other tog was the last of the bride with her brother, but the other tog had taken his shot then when I took mine, and when he was taking his shots I didnt have my camera at my eye was down by my side.
Looks like you got some great shots :D
Seems to me it should be you guys getting the £500, but I haven't seen the other guys shots so I guess I can't judge.
Matt Charlton
24-05-2007, 16:10
Thanks Ewan :) ,
It was our first attempt and I'm just glad of the experience we got from it and now that we know we can do it we can offer the service to other people at more realistic prices.
I had hoped that the official tog would prove me and my doubts wrong and I really wanted their photos to be perfect, no skin off my nose if they were fantastic - all the better for the couple who would have more shots to remember their day with, we took the photos we took because we were asked and we weren't in direct competition with him.
Just a shame when I know now that we could probably have done better with some of the shots, oh well - for us they'll be a next time.
Well just going on these alone ... you have some pretty decent shots there.
Im sure they will bring back many memories for the couple in years to come.
Theres a couple of bloopers ... to my eye anyway ... such as what the hell happened with the cake shot? :gag:
The other is something that could easily happen to us all ... the lady sat down wearing the white fascinator looks like she has some spidery thing growing out the back of her head :lol:
Tbh, though, I doubt Id have noticed that myself until I got the image up on screen.
The shot of the bride & groom on the dancefloor for me is a lovely shot... the bride looking into his eyes really makes it... a tad more of his face in shot and it would have been a real corker!
For me, the pic that steals your whole show is the candid of the little lad in all his finery, looking totally fed-up with it all.
You see that look on so many kids faces at so many weddings but rarely have I seen shots like that in peoples albums ... priceless!!!
Matt Charlton
24-05-2007, 16:20
There were plenty of cake shots, this was my creative lensbaby shot :p Its ace :)
Sue got the one of the little boy, one of my favorite shots from the day that is. The white spidery thing is something in her hair, it does look mighty odd from that angle though doesn't it? :p
The CD slideshow had 188 photos on it, theres only 10 there so there are plenty of other danceflooor shots (most of which we had to convert to mono because the disco lights were all over their faces and they didnt look great with red and green splodges everywhere).
Well just going on these alone ... you have some pretty decent shots there.
... the lady sat down wearing the white fascinator looks like she has some spidery thing growing out the back of her head :lol:
I noticed that too (is that what it's called!) :)
I'm impressed with the shot that has backlight from the window behind - amazing job on that one!
Just incase you're interested, there's a wedding photography guide in the June issue of Digital Camera. Which is out in May, for some reason :thinking:
Matt Charlton
24-05-2007, 16:32
I'm impressed with the shot that has backlight from the window behind - amazing job on that one!
Thanks Robert, full credit to Sue with the 400d/430ex and stofen for that one. It was noisy as hell so had to do some work with it in photoshop which is why it looks rather smooth.
Just incase you're interested, there's a wedding photography guide in the June issue of Digital Camera. Which is out in May, for some reason :thinking:
That actually got delivered the morning we did this wedding ;) We were quite chuffed actually, got a few tips from it.
Thanks again everyone
grumpybadger
24-05-2007, 22:11
Some nice shots there. I did a wedding once and never again. I'm more about recording what I see (and waiting for the magic moment) than herding cats. I found it way too stressful interacting with people, so top credit to you.
hypnotic
25-05-2007, 05:33
Nice shots there Matt.
Love the one of the little boy
h.r.ford
25-05-2007, 05:56
The one of the little boy is priceless. Thanks glo for telling us what the heck that thing was growing out of her head!
Matt Charlton
25-05-2007, 07:41
I never noticed how odd that thing looked until yesterday, I knew it was there but until Glo picked up on it and I actually looked at the top of her head and thought, oh, that looks really odd actually.
My eyes were always drawn to her face and where she was looking.
Full credit to sue for the pic of the boy :)
Irritable_Rabbit
26-05-2007, 13:13
There were plenty of cake shots, this was my creative lensbaby shot :p Its ace :)
If that appeared in the wedding album of many of my friends they'd think it was some kind of mistake... Sorry Matt.
On the plus side the shot of the lad on the chair works. :D
Number 5 after the cake is a nice standard tight protrait of a guest and works as well. :)
All the others could do with some judicous cropping to adjust for sloppy framing. Tighter crops and balancing would improve them nicely IMO.
Congratulations to both Matt & Sue. It's not easy is it? Even with 2 of you.
Sue top marks for the Boy shot. Don't like the cake shot posted in this thread, however you have some lovely shots in your slideshow of the cake.
Matt, what software did you use to produce the slideshow? I have just purchased ProShow Gold but haven't got around to compiling one yet.
Matt Charlton
26-05-2007, 16:57
Application called PicturesToExe Gilly, was about £20 for the pro version which allows you to create DVDs from it too (as well as exe files), its quite good.
Matt/Sue some nice shots in there, cant add much more to what everybody else has said, not a bad effort for a first go, that cake shot, im really sorry Matt but does absolutely nothing for me, you need to have something in focus for lensbaby shots to work, the statue head to the right would have been good, but to me it looks like its the top of the cake/flower in focus. Are you leaving the central focus point active for these ? may be why everything is central ?
You really need to concentrate on framing etc for all of your shots, specially if you intend to offer this to people, remember the last thing you want happening is the same thing you are now doing to this photographer, his shots may not be up to much as you say, but someone could end up doing the same to yours. Remember the bride and groom will not enjoy being posed time and time again for the same shots, if you get something a little wrong, i had this experience at my friends wedding in Liverpool Cathedral, the female tog, kept doing shots over and over, and re posing friends and family to the point where they were late for the family meal by 45 minutes ! the bride and groom were seething at this point ! You are under extreme time constraints normally, to produce shots the couple and family are happy with, and thats for the usual "set" shots.
Sorry i went on a bit there lol
The boy on the chair shot is ace well done Sue :)
Well thank you for the advice everyone, and we have listened to it and hopefully trying to remember it in the future. I think the most important thing for both me and matt is the the couple are happy with the photos we provided them with, I guess as I am sure someone said they are not looking at them as critically as us, but thats natural. At least we managed to get something they and the families were happy with which was the main aim of the day for us. It has certainally all been an experience.
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