View Full Version : Wide Angle Lense...is there a wider one?
Forgive my ignorance, but I'm considering buying a wider angle lense for my Nikon D70. I have the kit lenses at the moment, an 18-70mm.
I've had a look at a Sigma lense, 12-24mm.. which is for both 35mm and digital... but am I correct in assuming that as my camera has a 1.5x multiplier factor, this lense would be the same as my kit lense?
Partially, actually your kit lens, with the crop factor taken into account is equivalent to 27mm field of view at its shortist !
the 12 would be 18mm
HTH
Partially, actually your kit lens, with the crop factor taken into account is equivalent to 27mm field of view at its shortist !
the 12 would be 18mm
HTH
..we did lenses last week on our night course, the crop factor has my head spinning alittle :shock:
If I want a wider lense that my kit lense what do you think I should look for?
The 12-24 would be shorter than your kit lens, all you have to remember is that the physical size of the lens doesnt change, just the field of view of the sensor.
So in reality the 12-24 is still shorter than the kit lens as they are both subject to the 1.5* crop factor.
12 - 24 = 18 - 36
18 - 70 = 27 - 105
The 12-24 would be shorter than your kit lens, all you have to remember is that the physical size of the lens doesnt change, just the field of view of the sensor.
So in reality the 12-24 is still shorter than the kit lens as they are both subject to the 1.5* crop factor.
12 - 24 = 18 - 36
18 - 70 = 27 - 105
..thanks Ian, that clears it up for me a little :thumb:
Nikon do a 12-24mm lense, but it costs an uberfortune, I think I will stick with my kit lense for the moment, it certainly has performed well so far.
..thanks Ian, that clears it up for me a little :thumb:
Nikon do a 12-24mm lense, but it costs an uberfortune, I think I will stick with my kit lense for the moment, it certainly has performed well so far.
I think all Nikon lenses cost an uberfortune dont they ? I thought Canon L glass was steep but Nikons high end prices scare the living daylights out of me ! lol
Just remember any lens you put on the camera will become 1.5 times its focal length and you shouldnt go wrong ;)
I think all Nikon lenses cost an uberfortune dont they ? I thought Canon L glass was steep but Nikons high end prices scare the living daylights out of me ! lol
Just remember any lens you put on the camera will become 1.5 times its focal length and you shouldnt go wrong ;)
This was the one I looked at ;
http://www.europe-nikon.com/details.aspx?countryid=20&languageid=22&prodId=400&catId=117
..does that count for lenses that are badged as being for digital? all the different types are mind boggling :shock:
Very important bit in the stats :)
1. 12-24mm ultra-wide angle G type zoom lens equivalent to 18-36mm in 135 format
Very important bit in the stats :)
1. 12-24mm ultra-wide angle G type zoom lens equivalent to 18-36mm in 135 format
..and the relevance of that is?
(forgive my ultra-ignorance :icon_eek: )
Whether its for digital or not, it still has to abide by the crop factor of the sensor ! :)
Im not quite sure what they are saying this "for digital" thing makes !
Whether its for digital or not, it still has to abide by the crop factor of the sensor ! :)
Im not quite sure what they are saying this "for digital" thing makes !
..ah I see!
I downloaded the Sigma Brochure a few days ago, there were so many lenses in there ! very confusing. I have the kit lense on my D70 and an additional G type lense, a 70-300mm that came with my F75.. it's very much a budget lense but I used it recently and the results were pleasing.
I thought I was doing quite well till two guys on my course, both 20D owners, whipped out 400mm lenses that put mine to shame! must have cost them a fortune :D
Usually say for xxx sensor along with the for digital reference on that sort of thing.
I've been looking at wide lenses for Canon and many are for smaller sensors only - ef-s or whatever the other makers call theirs. The lens only makes an image big enough for the smaller sensor so if you fit it to a full frame camera it vignettes - assuming you can fit it as many of them project out the back far enough to hit the mirror in a full frame camera.
I'm thinking about the tokina 12-24 as that can go on a full frame camera even if it does vignette at its widest.
Nikon DX lenses are for digital sensors only. As RobertP says, they are the equivalent to the Canon EF-S lenses in this respect.
As for a wide angle lens, there are quite a few to chose from:
Sigma 10-20mm
Sigma 12-24mm
Tamron 11-18mm
Nikon 12-24mm (v. expensive as you say)
Tokina 12-24mm
The ones I would look at myself, are the Sigma 10-20 and The Tokina 12-24.
What's the benefit of the DX/EF-S lenses being able to protrude further back? I've not had that explained to me properly. Does it allow greater DOF or something?
I think it allows for a shorter/lighter lens?
Ah right. That would make sense. Although I can't see it being a huge amount shorter or lighter. We're talking about a few centimetres here, aren't we?
I thought I was doing quite well till two guys on my course, both 20D owners, whipped out 400mm lenses that put mine to shame! must have cost them a fortune :D
Well that depends which 400mm lens they have
100-400L IS = Not that expensive
400mm F2.8 = Credit Card Expensive :(
:)
What's the benefit of the DX/EF-S lenses being able to protrude further back? I've not had that explained to me properly. Does it allow greater DOF or something?
It will give more DOF but the real reason for these lenses is that they're designed purely for digital sensors with a crop factor. The fact that they protrude further into the camera body means they can cast a wider FOV on the sensor than a normal lens, which is a particular advantage at the wide angle end. The crop factor still has to be taken into account but you get a wider FOV recorded on the sensor.
You can only fit an EF-S lens on a 300D, 350D or 20D. If you fitted one on a 1:1 sensor camera, or other non-compatible body (you can't anyway, because the mount is peculiar to those three camera bodies) the back of the lens would foul the reflex mirror.
Well that depends which 400mm lens they have
100-400L IS = Not that expensive
400mm F2.8 = Credit Card Expensive :(
:)
I disagree entirely. Spending £1000 on a lens as a hobby is not "Not that expensive" For the average amateur photographer it is very expensive and for most it is way beyond their budget. It is a popular lens but it is not that affordable for the average hobbyist.
On the other hand everything is relevant and as a comparison to the 400mm F2.8 I would agree it is substantially less.
Suggest that Steve write to Canon etc to advise that as the owner/co-owner/partner of a major camera review site [advertiser's puff etc], could they please send shed loads of lenses for testing and review for distribution around the site's old pros with the potential for purchase etc blah de blah.
Unfortunately Steve has too many other things going on that are more important at the moment, plus I don't regard this site as being anything like a major camera review site currently.
Needless to say the future will hopefully be a different matter ;)
Nikon DX lenses are for digital sensors only. As RobertP says, they are the equivalent to the Canon EF-S lenses in this respect.
As for a wide angle lens, there are quite a few to chose from:
Sigma 10-20mm
Sigma 12-24mm
Tamron 11-18mm
Nikon 12-24mm (v. expensive as you say)
Tokina 12-24mm
The ones I would look at myself, are the Sigma 10-20 and The Tokina 12-24.
..thanks for that :)
The 10-20mm sounds good, any idea how many notes I will relieve me of!
Prices from onestop
Sigma 10-20mm £299
Tamron 11-18mm £309
Nikon 12-24mm £576
Tokina 12-24mm £300
DavidUK , did you end up buying one in the end ?
Anybody seen a decent comparison test of these lenses together, as I'm struggling to find anything on the net ?. Have looked at example shots on PBASE, but quality of photographer is confusing the issue between shots.
I'm happy to buy the Nikon at that price if there is a noticeable difference in quality from the rest.
I have the 12-24mm Nikon lens and it is infinitely better than the kit lens in terms of image quality.
It is also MUCH wider..
Amateur Photographer rated the Tokina 12-24 substantially higher than the Sigma 10-20.
Cheers guys...so need to compare Nikon with Tokina then
Cheers guys...so need to compare Nikon with Tokina then
I think for the price I would go with the Tokina.
FM has quite a few reviews of the Nikon iirc.
Also try the Sigma 12-24, I rate mine highly as do many other owners (http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=184&sort=7&cat=37&page=2)
Also try the Sigma 12-24, I rate mine highly as do many other owners (http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=184&sort=7&cat=37&page=2)
Christ, don't make the decision harder for me ;)
Typically I find tests of Sigma 10-20mm & Nikon 12-24mm on Ephoto with identical comparision shots......but no Tokina :( :banghead: . Now if there was only one site to compare all lenses at ;)
Noticed there is a s/h Nikon on for £400 with less than 1 hr to go on EBAY...only problem is seller has (4) feedback, with several no longer registered :suspect1: . Option to meet in London, but bit far for me.
Nikon used to make a 6mm fish-eye but you had to order it specially as hardly anyone ever had it in stock. I use a 14mm and it seems OK for the few times I use it, though as it's a Sigma I do get flare sometimes which I didn't when using the 14mm Nikkor that I used to have issued to me.
Cheers Rob.....struggling to find reviews that can show a big difference between Nikon & Tokina at the mo.....although clear that Nikon has better quality control so less likely to get a dodgy lens
Interesting link below of diff in wide angle view of photo according to Focal length of lens :-
http://www.shuttertalk.com/forums/images/upload/76_w050124fovcomparison2wv%20(Medium).jpg
Now that extra bit from 12 -> 10mm would be nice to have, but too risky from what I read with Sigma QC on lenses...especially if ordering from HK.
Saying that only £35 more from Jessops than onestop for Sigma.....can't find Tokina at Jessops, but the Nikon is an extra £323 than onestop !!! Looking long term I expect less depreciation on Nikon if bought from HK with that initial saving ?
I love my Sigma 10-20mm. I do hear the Tokina is sharper but if I got 12mm and I knew I could have had 10mm I would always want that extra 2, just cos :) Anyway. Some shots with my 10-20 (http://petemc.net/gallery/2005/09/sigma_1020mm_ultra_wide_angle_test_shots?page=all)
Don't think in terms of depreciation. Camera bodies come and go, but a good lens is for keeps unless you change marques, whereas a cheap lens is always a stepping stone to better glass in the long run. Trust me, I've bought cheap in the past and regretted it a few months later - why-oh-why didn't I spend the extra cash etc etc?
Another thing to bear in mind is that the Nikon is constant F4 across the entire zoom range and has an AF-S motor.
I'm not sure whether the others mentioned are HSM (or equivalent Tokina technology) and I think they have variable apertures?
These factors may, or may not, be important to you..
Unbelievably after all this searching the wen for reviews on the lenses, I was scanning my Digital Photo Mag from Nov 05 & it had a group test on them all :doh: :whistle2:
Anyway end results were as follows :-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v178/djw_666/TPF/WideAngleTestresults.jpg
Gold went to the Sigma 10-20mm & Silver to the Canon 10-22mm
From the example photographs I really could see hardly any difference between the Nikon, Canon, Sigma (10-20) & Tokina, so feel it came down to price as final decider.
Then I go to photozone.de for user reviews of some of the lenses & it's different again :suspect1: :-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v178/djw_666/TPF/WideAnglecomparison.jpg
...although I will take this with pinch of salt.
This is harder than deciding on a new car !!! ;)
From the photozene.de review I would buy the Tokina. :)
Well after reading Mag review I was set on the Sigma, as the extra 2mm equates to extra 10 degree of view......but then reading 2nd table :dizzy: . Nikon is out of the picture now, as for me the difference in price could go towards a nice macro lens :) Now if only Jessops had Tokina in at a decent price, I could try the Sigma & if not happy exchange for Tokina. Only prob is Tokina is only a competitive price from onestop...............why is everything in life so complicated ;)
Anyway off to make sense of this technical review of the 2 lenses :-
http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/tokina_1224_4/index.htm
http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/sigma_1020_456/index.htm
...although I will take this with pinch of salt.
Sigma probably didn't buy any advertising space that month ;)
As for the reviews, I defy any 10mm lens to produce distortion free images.
As for the reviews, I defy any 10mm lens to produce distortion free images.
nail / head
Even my 12-24 distorts visibily at 12mm but as long as you accept it for what it is then you learn to work with it and still produce nice pics.
For me I have found the definitive test , from the Nikonians site itself here (http://www.nikonians.org/html/resources/nikon_articles/nikkor/af/wide_angles_shootout/index.html). Still useful for Canoners ;)
From results I have decided the following, for my requirements
- Nikon has the best optical lens performance
- Sigma is close 2nd in Optical Performance, but has extra 10 degree view.
If both lenses were 12-24mm, putting aside the cost difference I would go for the Nikkor. But for me I want WIDE angle & that extra 10 degrees has made the difference.
Off to Jessops for me next week :D
DJW don't rush, Jessops are out of stock till after christmas.
DJW don't rush, Jessops are out of stock till after christmas.
:doh: :banghead: :hissyfit: :dizzy: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v178/djw_666/TPF/GIFS/megatantrum.gif
I'll of changed my mind again by then ;)
UPDATE - Lens in stock online, with free next day delivery....so I bought it :)
So you went for the sigma 10-20?
Just in time for Christmas. :)
Ah of course, you have a Nikon, the Canon version is still out of stock :(
When they come back in I might pop down to my local branch and see if they can do a bit of price matching with camerabox or karlu photographic.
IIRC it seems that Jessops no longer do price match :suspect1:
Dont want to throw a spanner in the works of this thread....
but Nikon actualy make a new DX ED 10.5mm F2.8 ' fisheye ' lens
this would almost negate the extra field of view the sigma offers??
and jessops are quoting £599 for it
MyPix:Ponders:
So you went for the sigma 10-20?
Yep....extra 10 degrees was final breaker.
MyPix.... Not changing my mind now.....head hurts from all the research ;)
Yep....extra 10 degrees was final breaker.
MyPix.... Not changing my mind now.....head hurts from all the research ;)
cool,
i know what it feels like ....i'm trying to decide on a flash gun atm
how much u get it for in the end Dave?
MyPix:)
ps.....we shall have to get together and try out ur new lens, as i'm only down the road in Gloucester, lol:D
£335 incl P&P. Could have saved £35 with Onestop, but had slight concerns of Sigma quality control.....so at least I can pop back to local Jessops if probelsm, rather than HK ;)
I'm up for a shoot matey in Cheltenham, Gloucester area. Have a think of shoot area & we can meet for a pint & pie 1st in local pub. Always good to share photo knowledge....& good taste in Camera ;) . Moving to Cheltenham area soon (have bougt house which I am renting out at the mo), so was going to investigate local Camera clubs. Have you tried any around the area ?
ive just gone for the same djw, my internet connection has been down for 2 weeks now :( (damn ntl) so i couldnt order from onestop, but my local shop had one in stock and gave it to me for £330 :) only had it 2 days, but will post some images next week. it seems a little soft towards the edge on some shots, but then i guess that's to be expected.
only thing is that my onbvorad flash doesnt clear the lens, ah well have to wait for the sb-600 from santa ;)
Good on ya. Re softness near edges the Sigma had some of the sharpest results of the bunch, although they suggest f/8 for best results on all the lenses. Uderstood that wide open (10mm) you can't compare to "normal" focal length lenses for edge to edge sharpness.
I've found it for £319.99 with free delivery from 1stCameras in Newcastle.
http://www.1stcameras.com/product.asp?code=180691
I'm tempted...
I've found it for £319.99 with free delivery from 1stCameras in Newcastle.
http://www.1stcameras.com/product.asp?code=180691
I'm tempted...
Are you near to them & do they have a shop ? Only reason being if you get a duff one, you would want to return & view new one before accepting. This was the reason I went for Jessops......the cost of P&P for returns would have negated savings elsewhere.
If I had chosen Nikon I would have no qualms over quality control & would have ordered from HK.
Well it arrived yesterday afternoon so only had chance to fire off a few test shots. First thoughts were, everthing is now so small in the view finder ;) Takes a while to get used to this level of wide angle. Will defintely be retaking all shots of interior of house (for sale) as rooms look a lot bigger now :whistle2: (I'm sure Estate agents were done for using ultra wide angle shots ?)
DJW, yes they have a shop but no it's not near me. I have no problem with posting it back either to them or Sigma if needed though.
I'm sitting here with filters and holder waiting for it to arrive, tapping foot... :)
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