View Full Version : Camera Kit Heading for the Bin - Please Help!!!
Hammerhead64
03-04-2008, 20:00
I keep seeing TP posts of Birds/Wildlife that are pin sharp. I have tried and tried to get somewhere close but I am failing miserably and I don't know why. I am getting close to putting all my kit in the bin, spending the rest of my life as an outcast from the TP/Photo community. Am I asking too much from my humble kit? Am I missing something in the camera settings? Am I doing something wrong in the processing of the RAW files? Here is a prime example of the problem.
Here is the Full pic: Taken with Sony A100 using Sigma 170-500mm f5/6.3 @ a dist of approx 9.5m, ISO400, 500mm, Spot Metered f6.3, 1/320sec.
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/gallery/data/1657/BirdCrit001Full.jpg
and also a cropped to show the lack of sharpness:
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/gallery/data/1657/BirdCrit001Crop.jpg
:help:Please.....Please.....Please someone help......I would be lost without my Photography but the frustration is just getting to me:help:
Paul
Are you handholding? Using a tripod or monopod? resting on a windowledge?
I'm no wildlife expert but hopefully one will be along soon so don't despair.
if your shooting raw they may need sharping in post processing. but not sure if that is your only issue, also might be camera shake.
Looks to my unexperienced eye like camera shake :shrug:
Ideally you want a shutter speed at least equal to your focal length:
50mm focal length, min shutter speed 1/500 :)
Hammerhead64
03-04-2008, 20:20
Opps .. :naughty:sorry peeps ....critical info I missed .... I was using my Manfrotto 055PROOB lump of a tripod not extended and on firm ground.
that eliminates camera shake then :p
davidbridges
03-04-2008, 20:26
do not bin a 500mm i would die for a longer reach lens i use 300mm as it stands and i seem to get some alright shots but only after a year of practice. Just practice and practice maybe try and find a local hide and get you practice up and your guarenteed to get birds coming quite close.
also RAW's are unprocessed so they are not as sharp as JPEG's so sharpen them up loads or switch.
To start of with I think you need to practice a proper long lens technique, as their are a lot of factors which affect sharpness.
read and practice this technique in the link below as an absolute minimum, its very sound advice from a well respected pro.
http://www.moosepeterson.com/techtips/longlens.html
you should start to see some improvement
hotchef23
03-04-2008, 20:27
is this through a window? i.e taken through glass?
Could it be:
A)Noise/noise reduction? A100 isn't renowned for great noise handling even at ISO400.
B)Back focus/front focus? Another renowned problem affecting KM and Sony camera.
daftbugga
03-04-2008, 20:34
i'd say the problem may be using it wide open( f6.3 ) @ 500mm,i have the same lens on a D 80 & i've found @ 500 i's o.k at f 8-11.
Good link that mho cheers.
I shoot a long lens...Sigma 300-800 and it takes a LOT of work. The techniques described on the link above do help. I was out late yesterday and it was as windy as hell so I could not shoot at all at the longer lengths. Every touch of the camera/lens/shutter release/how you breathe etc accentuates the camera movement, especially 400mm+.
I know there are other longer lens users on here who will tell you to stick at it and practise your techniques.
Good luck!
Hammerhead64
03-04-2008, 21:27
Great link mho placed in my favourites, so I can reread each time I go out.
hotchef ... no I wasn't taking through glass ...although I have tried that so I didn't scare the birdy's off .... all i got was a horrible mess.
Could it be:
A)Noise/noise reduction? A100 isn't renowned for great noise handling even at ISO400.
B)Back focus/front focus? Another renowned problem affecting KM and Sony camera.
:( :eek: I knew I bought the wrong kit ... :bang: ... I'm doomed, forever only going to get noisy pics .... :thinking: hey .... hold on .... you're not a Nikon/Canon loving Sony hater are you??
Hey all you quick posters :love:... I think I can feel me stepping away from the edge ..... think positive ... practice, practice and hold my breath ........
I think (not one of my strong points mind :p) for longer stuff, you're supposed to press the shutter on the exhale of breath :shrug:
davidbridges
03-04-2008, 21:29
No doubt about it you can get some shots that match the ones you think are good on here. Just that word cropping back up again, practice. Why don't you wake up really early one day and just go to a wood and just sit for a few hours that normally motivates me even if i don't get any good shots !
how old is the lens, It may need re-calibrating by Sigma, also you are shooting wide open at F/6.3 @ 500mm, try stopping down a stop or two, yes i know this might be too slow but the 170-500 isn't exactly the best lens for wildlife ;) It might help if you take a shot at F/8-11 at 500mm of a still object and see how sharp that is?
:( :eek: I knew I bought the wrong kit ... :bang: ... I'm doomed, forever only going to get noisy pics .... :thinking: hey .... hold on .... you're not a Nikon/Canon loving Sony hater are you??
Nope, I'm a Konica Minolta 5D (what your camera came from) owner for the last 2-3 years. Like it or not the A mount has BF/FF issues, go to dyxum and you'll find plenty of examples first hand.
andyjayh
03-04-2008, 21:47
Whats wrong with that then? :D
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/andyjayh/TP%20Retouch/BirdCrit001Crop-sharp.jpg
Bit of PS work is all it took. I am certainly no expert at PS and I only spent 2 mins on this one.
Oops, just noticed you haven't got your Edit pics boxed checked, sorry. I'll remove if you want??
Hammerhead64
03-04-2008, 21:57
Kev .....only joking with you ... I've seen some posts of yours in the past so I already know you're a KM user. Thanks for taking the time to respond, could you explain a bit more on what you mean by BF/FF issues.
Andy .... :clap: no problem that looks too good to be a pic I took .... you didn't sneak into my garden and take some pics on an uber Camera/Lens setup did you. If it is just some PS tweaking though can you let me know how you did it.....:thumbs:
sepulchre
03-04-2008, 22:14
I'd be very interested to know how thats done also, as I've always found sharpening in PS a bit of a black art!
tbh I find myself pretty much in the same position as yourself Hammerhead, can be quite frustrating at times eh?
I think (not one of my strong points mind :p) for longer stuff, you're supposed to press the shutter on the exhale of breath :shrug:
Thought about this one and I think that, as with "real shooting", the breath should be drawn normally, held when ready to shoot after taking a half breath in. The shot is then taken whilst holding the breath (the chest has stopped heaving) and gently release the breath after the shot has been taken.
BTW is it not better to shoot with both eyes open?
David.
andyjayh
03-04-2008, 22:24
Andy .... :clap: no problem that looks too good to be a pic I took .... you didn't sneak into my garden and take some pics on an uber Camera/Lens setup did you. If it is just some PS tweaking though can you let me know how you did it.....:thumbs:
I know the feeling mate which I why I did this for you. A little while ago I posted some pics and was feeling a little inferior in skill due to the sharp pics on here. CT reposted one of mine after a quick process and I couldn't believe it was my picture :lol:
So what I did, used CS3 to process. Quick selection tool to highlight the subject, copy and paste to create another layer with only the main subject in. Run Noise Ninja plugin in main background layer. Run Smart Sharpen on subject layer, approx 50%. Flattened layers back to one and run sharpen filter on total image. Saved.
Probably not doing this properly myself but you can see the difference even if I am not doing it correctly :D
Point to remember that was made above, if shooting in RAW you will need to sharpen as the image will be slightly soft. Sharpen last, do all other processing including resizing and saving to .jpg. Those last two tend to destroy most sharpening anyway, I think.
Here is the Full pic: Taken with Sony A100 using Sigma 170-500mm f5/6.3 @ a dist of approx 9.5m, ISO400, 500mm, Spot Metered f6.3, 1/320sec.
I'm sure I read somewhere that generally your shutter speed should be at least the same as your focal length to stop camera shake? In other words 1/500sec?
GarynLea
03-04-2008, 23:13
:woot: This Thread Is Amazing :woot:
As a beginner, I have found this thread to be sooooo informative. These nuggets of information must be so taken for granted that they never seem to be mentioned and therefore, us novices never seem to get to hear them.
Thank you to the OP for starting this thread and the helpful responders, without who, I would have continued sitting in the dark for a long time to come.
Gary :)
I don't see too much wrong at all to be honest. It looks like you're just doing insufficient sharpening in processing. Don't forget either that if you reduce a file to web size - it WILL lose definition, and will need sharpening. Don't bin the gear just yet. ;)
andyjayh
04-04-2008, 06:28
I'm sure I read somewhere that generally your shutter speed should be at least the same as your focal length to stop camera shake? In other words 1/500sec?
Yes you are correct as a rule of thumb for hand holding. When you can't achieve that you need to use a tripod, or other support method to stop camera shake. Here a tripod was used so that shutter speed/focal length ratio is ok.
Thought about this one and I think that, as with "real shooting", the breath should be drawn normally, held when ready to shoot after taking a half breath in. The shot is then taken whilst holding the breath (the chest has stopped heaving) and gently release the breath after the shot has been taken.
BTW is it not better to shoot with both eyes open?
David.
No, you generally have one "dominant eye" To find out which one is your dominant eye.... line up your finger held at arms length with an object in front of you but a few feet away. Do this with both eyes open. Then check how close you are with each eye. One will be more accurate thant he other. I'm slightly left eye dominant.
As for shooting and breathing, the best time to pull the trigger is actually at the end of an exhale. The body is much more relaxed at that stage and you don't need to rush to inhale your next breath, it gives a nice long window to take the shot.
Glad the OP is getting sorted. It is so heartening to see eveyone help each other like this and one reason I love this place :love::love:
Hammerhead64
04-04-2008, 07:30
I know the feeling mate which I why I did this for you. A little while ago I posted some pics and was feeling a little inferior in skill due to the sharp pics on here. CT reposted one of mine after a quick process and I couldn't believe it was my picture :lol:
So what I did, used CS3 to process. Quick selection tool to highlight the subject, copy and paste to create another layer with only the main subject in. Run Noise Ninja plugin in main background layer. Run Smart Sharpen on subject layer, approx 50%. Flattened layers back to one and run sharpen filter on total image. Saved.
Probably not doing this properly myself but you can see the difference even if I am not doing it correctly :D
Point to remember that was made above, if shooting in RAW you will need to sharpen as the image will be slightly soft. Sharpen last, do all other processing including resizing and saving to .jpg. Those last two tend to destroy most sharpening anyway, I think.
Andy .... :thumbs: I've only got access to CS2 do you or anyone else know if this is possible using this version.
Glad the OP is getting sorted. It is so heartening to see eveyone help each other like this and one reason I love this place :love::love:
I agree with this sentiment I am overwhelmed by the response to this thread .... although I shouldn't be surprised the TP'ers are in a class of their own...... :1st:
Yes you are correct as a rule of thumb for hand holding. When you can't achieve that you need to use a tripod, or other support method to stop camera shake. Here a tripod was used so that shutter speed/focal length ratio is ok.
Ah, I knew there was an exception to this rule but couldn't remember! Many thanks, I was having similar problems with my 70-300mm :thumbs:
spannerdude
04-04-2008, 08:34
I have the 170-500 and Sony A100.
It's virtually impossible to tell from an 800x600 image what is causing your woes.
If I had to make a guess I'd say camera shake. Even on a tripod with a 750mm (eq) lens at 1/320s you have the potential for movement. Did you turn SSS off because it was on a tripod? Leave it on, I've been amazed at how easy it is to move the camera on a tripod.
Have a close look at the full size image. Can you see a sort of ghost image of the perimeter of the main objects? If so it's going to be camera shake.
Wide open at that range you will have very little depth of field and the A100 focus accuracy isn't all it could be. Have a look at the fence rail at full size and see if there is a point in front or behind the bird that is in focus. That would suggest that limited DOF and focus accuracy are a problem.
Much is said about the noise handling of the A100, some of it justified and some of it just hooey. It's fair to say that you will need to invest in some noise reduction software, I use Neat Image. But it's also fair to say that at iso 400 and 800 on a well exposed image the A100 records more detail than any of it's contemporaries that I've ever seen.
Sony have chosen to adopt conservative settings for noise reduction and sharpness. It records a lot of detail and stops the image looking plastic. But you have to know how to bring it out. When I first got mine I was apalled by the high iso quality but having got the hang of it now I really like the detail.
So here's a few tips I've learned in the last 2 years of A100 ownership:
Leave SSS on all the time, if it isn't needed it won't be used.
Use DMF focus mode when shooting wide open, holding the button autofocusses and then disengages the AF so you can fine tune with the manual focus ring.
Use the focus area select, exposure follows the focus point so if you lock focus and recompose the shot will be exposed for wherever the focus point is now, not your subject.
Don't be affraid to use iso800 if the light is bad, be carefull not to underexpose and iso800 shots can be excellent.
Use NR software to clean up the image (I find all Sigma lenses produce noisey bokeh?) and apply a bit of subtle sharpening.
I'm crap at wildlife photography, it's really not my thing but even I have managed some good sharp shots with this combo.
The first couple of shots here are with the beercan but all the rest are hand held with the Sigma.
http://public.fotki.com/spannerdude/wildlife/
spannerdude
04-04-2008, 08:54
Yes you are correct as a rule of thumb for hand holding. When you can't achieve that you need to use a tripod, or other support method to stop camera shake. Here a tripod was used so that shutter speed/focal length ratio is ok.
Except the rule of thumb originates from the film days, so we have to take into account the crop factor too. So in this case 1/750s.
SSS is your friend ;)
Even pressing the shutter release whilst tripod mounted can cause shake.
A remote wireless or cabled might help.
PSI Fox beat me to it. You need a remote, either cabled or radio.
As to working out which eye is dominant, I reckon I will have a problem with that one! I suffer with pure double vision in both eyes! A bit bizarre but had it for as long as I can remember!
BTW some superb advice on this thread, thanks for posing your question.
Regards
Chris
The remote cable release is well meaning guys but it's wrong when used with a long lens for wildlife. Long telephoto lenses create a huge problem in that mirror and shutter vibrations travels along the lens and cause image blur. You absolutely have to damp the lens with your left hand as described in the link to long lens technique in the post by Mark (mho) above.
Apart from anything else, you need one hand on the camera and one on the lens, even with a gimbal head, to have any chance of tracking birds hopping around.
With CT above.
My left hand stays on the lens...well, my left arm.
My first shots with my current set-up were blurry. I reviewed my technique and had a go at different shutter speeds, aperture settings etc, carefully reviewing when I got home.
I have also found that anything over 400ISO is not all that great (Nikon D2X).
(As an aside...with the greater ISO range of the D3 and not that much difference between the greater range of the 300-800 on a 1.5 crop I am starting to think that the greater shutter speeds may be of benefit.)
Hi CT and Brains,
Apologies to all, I bow down to your greater experience. I had wrongly assumed (should have known better as I have taught you make an ASS out of U and ME for the last 20 years) that it would be the same as a smaller lens.
Now I know what to do when I eventually get my biggy!
Regards
Chris
LOL. No probs Chris, I always associated a tripod with a cable release. It was news to me too when I first start looking at long lenses. ;)
andyjayh
05-04-2008, 13:24
Andy .... :thumbs: I've only got access to CS2 do you or anyone else know if this is possible using this version.
Not to sure about the CS2 features compaired to CS3, so I am going to assume that the sharpening filters are the same?? :shrug: Someone else may be able to answer that based on knowledge rather then a guess :bonk:
Noise Ninja is a third party app that can be a stand alone app or a plugin for CSx. I use it as a plugin and therefore can use it during processing the image.
Hope that helps
Andy
Hammerhead64
06-04-2008, 00:12
spannerdude .... :thumbs:thanks for the tips these will be a great help being specific to the A100.
It seems I did get one thing right on this and that was the use of a tripod but not with a cable release. I am going to try the long lens tips next time to see if that helps.
Andyjayh ... :thumbs:thanks for the contiuned tips I've looked up both noise ninja and neat image and will look to purchase one of them when funds become available. :shrug: In the meantime is PS not able to produce some results with its built in features. I have a tip that I use at present using the high pass filter and will have a try on the pics posted to see what sort of result I get. Will post up the revised pic when done.
andyjayh
06-04-2008, 07:54
No problem at all :D
I wouldn't be overly worried about getting an external noise filter immediately, as long as you manage to take your shots on a low'ish ISO then you shouldn't need one as a priority. The main thing to remember here is that you will need to use sharpening filters when using RAW. In my mind you were doing everything else correctly and just not processing properly.
At this stage I wouldn't even be too worried about the cable release. Listen to the advice of people like CT (:notworthy:) firm tripod and holding your lens steady. In my mind you need to be holding the body so you can focus on the eye of the subject and recompose before taking the shot. Others may disagree with this but it works for me as the eye is the important part of the subject in wildlife shots.
Noise is not too much of a thing to be worried about, a noisey image on screen will print great and you wont see the noise. Were all to obsessed with a clean image at 100% on screen its not needed.
tazza-oz
06-04-2008, 18:00
Wota g8 thread hammer :clap: im writting down all these tips :thumbs: it should sink in by end of the year :thinking: Keep these tips going u beauty :woot:
Hammerhead64
06-04-2008, 23:10
tazza .... I'm glad that this thread is proving useful to others. As I said originally I was getting a bit frustrated and this was made worse by the fact that I am not new to Photography as a hobby (I got my 1st SLR over 30years ago). The issue that this has raised for me is that coming from a 35mm film angle I personally do not like the idea of processing shots too much using manipulation software.
What the kind members posting in this thread have shown me is that using the digital media means that there is a certain amount of necessity in post production almost like the developing in film terms. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with others using software, but for me personally it wasn't for me ...... but now I see the need and will therefore embrace what I need to do to improve.
In addition this thread has also given me the push to do something that I have never done before and that is to join a local photography club. :clap: Once again a big thank you to all those that posted in this thread. :thumbs:
spannerdude
07-04-2008, 08:57
tazza .... I'm glad that this thread is proving useful to others. As I said originally I was getting a bit frustrated and this was made worse by the fact that I am not new to Photography as a hobby (I got my 1st SLR over 30years ago). The issue that this has raised for me is that coming from a 35mm film angle I personally do not like the idea of processing shots too much using manipulation software.
What the kind members posting in this thread have shown me is that using the digital media means that there is a certain amount of necessity in post production almost like the developing in film terms. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with others using software, but for me personally it wasn't for me ...... but now I see the need and will therefore embrace what I need to do to improve.
I used to feel the same way. I came back to photography after many years because of the cost benefits of digital but I was always disappointed that I needed to tweak so many shots.
But then I realised that when I was tinkering around in the darkroom printing 10x8's taken with my beloved Contax 137ma, I tweaked exposure, dodged, burned, masked and experimented with different chemicals.
With digital, I never view anything as small as a 10x8. Every image I take is viewed on a 21" CRT or a 6 foot projector screen. My film shots would never stood up to that scrutiny and my digital shots would probably all look fine at postcard size. :shrug:
Embrace the new levels of creative freedom ;)
Hammerhead64
13-04-2008, 13:32
Ok .... I thought :) I've had all this marvellous advice from you kind peeps :thumbs:. So i'll have a go at sharpening. Found a link to this excellent tutorial website (well worth a visit if you wish to hone your PS skills)www.thelightsrightstudio.com/ also provides actions which give one click access in Photoshop.
Here's the result: I know there is still a lot of noise in the pic but I hope that noise ninja/neat image solution will deal with this when I get round to getting it. It is also a very extreme crop but I like the glint in the eye though so I'm reasonably pleased. It has given me some hope.
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/gallery/data/1657/BirdCrit002Crop.jpg
You used a tripod, did you switch OFF your camera image stabilisation?
Are you using a UV filter on the end of your lens? The reason I ask is a friend of mine was getting unsharp pictures and heard about UV filters causing bluryness. So he took two identical shots, all settings the same, one with the filter on and one with it off, sure enough the one with the UV filter off was pin sharp.
The test shots were of grave stones, with the filter on you could tell there was writing on the gravestones, with the filter off you could read the writing!
HTH,
Steve.
Hammerhead64
28-04-2008, 22:09
I have had a go at testing the lens for sharpness/focus problems. As you can see from the following there isn't a problem in that area. :bang:Shame I missed the birds on the feeder while using all the tips given to me in this thread. I turned off SSS and set the aperture to f11 using my left hand to hold the lens on the top. I feel I'm getting close so next thing is to get something that moves into the frame.:thinking:
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/gallery/data/1657/170-500focus_test.jpg
andyjayh
29-04-2008, 06:41
Excellent, glad you are getting there and the advice worked out for you :woot:
Great place TP :thumbs:
purpleclouds
29-04-2008, 08:26
One vital tip which I dont think anyone has mentioned......being closer to the birds means more pixels per bird which in turn will give more detail! Try throwing out some seed or something to entice them closer :)
I missed this thread first time round, anyway, full of good advice and ideas. :thumbs:
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