Is this a priceless pic or a pointless pic ?? [Archive]

ivortripod

01-06-2008, 11:14

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2290/2540489707_68eb10d686.jpg

Is this image, made yesterday, a priceless shot of a mother and daughter, or is it a pointless shot when you consider the following:
1] I don't know who they are
2] If I tried to find out would I be accused of 'something weird in my motive'
3] I could try to sell it to the fair operator, but they could also be suspicious

Any comments would be most welcome

Janice

01-06-2008, 11:17

I think it is a lovely fun shot. I wouldnt be thinking of selling it.

Its just a nice shot to have in your collection... thats how I see it.

DiddyDave

01-06-2008, 11:18

Because of 1] - I'm with Pointless, had that been your wife & child... well it would have had value if not exactly priceless

Also, it's not very good technically

Soz

DD

ivortripod

01-06-2008, 11:22

Because of 1] - I'm with Pointless, had that been your wife & child... well it would have had value if not exactly priceless

Also, it's not very good technically

Soz

DD

Would appreciate your explanation, cheers :thumbs:

DiddyDave

01-06-2008, 11:44

Explanation of what? I thought I had explained my answer to the question - or do you mean my saying it's not technically good?

If that's what you mean...

The colours are wrong (WB way off) and it's too oversaturated - yes I know it's under a red canopy, but still

Exposure isn't quite right - it needs about 1/2 stop more to get mum's white shirt near to white

Composition (crop) isn't right - too much unnecessary detail on the LHS; and everything past the red girl on the RHS is unnecessary and/or distracting

You used the wrong aperture as the background is too in focus (right out of the back of the ride to the vehicles beyond) and hence too distracting

All IMHO of course so feel free to ignore :D

I hope that helps rather than annoys?:thinking:

DD

Mr Chelsea

01-06-2008, 11:48

i think it would only be considered a priceless shot if it is personal to you
for me its a nice photo, but does not mean anything

russbates

01-06-2008, 11:54

Why is it pointless if you don't know who they are? Though it has a few technical problems you have captured the excitement and fun of the moment, could do with a bit of pp and maby a crop but i like it.

01-06-2008, 12:05

Is this image, made yesterday, a priceless shot of a mother and daughter, or is it a pointless shot when you consider the following:
1] I don't know who they are

It's a good job Cartier-Bresson and other street/candid photographers didn't think like that. Carrying that sentiment to it's logical conclusion, all we'd photograph are mums and chums and family pets. Surely we can aspire to a bit more than that? ;) This shot documents a slice of life and a moment in time which transcends the importance of knowing who these people are.

2] If I tried to find out would I be accused of 'something weird in my motive'

Try to find out with a view to selling the shots? Quite possibly your motives would be questioned by some - sad sign of the times, but I don't think we should just give up and let the PC loonies take the high ground on this issue all the while.

3] I could try to sell it to the fair operator, but they could also be suspicious.

I don't see why - the mere fact that you're trying to sell him the shot should explain your motives. I don't recall ever seeing a single fairground operator advertising though, it's usually posters for the whole shebang a few days before the fair arrives, so I wouldn't hold out much hope of a sale there.

I think it's a nice happy shot - the DOF is too great as pointed out, and the colour saturation suits the subject, but it could easily be adjusted to taste anyway.

Ashers

01-06-2008, 15:42

i disagree qwith diddydave on all points... i like it :D and i know nothing about technical stuff

ivortripod

02-06-2008, 11:24

The colours are wrong (WB way off) and it's too oversaturated - yes I know it's under a red canopy, but still

Exposure isn't quite right - it needs about 1/2 stop more to get mum's white shirt near to white

Composition (crop) isn't right - too much unnecessary detail on the LHS; and everything past the red girl on the RHS is unnecessary and/or distracting

You used the wrong aperture as the background is too in focus (right out of the back of the ride to the vehicles beyond) and hence too distracting

DD

* My point being that far too much emphasis on these forums is on 'technicalities'. Very little, it seems to me, is written about the art of capturing the moment.

As far as this image is concerned, does anyone really think that the above 'technical' comments actually outweigh the uniqueness of the image? In other words, if you were the mother in the shot, would you look at anything other than your child's expression?
In an average kids life how many pictures like this are they going to have?
Come to that how many pictures of your kids have you got that show so much happiness?
Most technical stuff can be quickly learnt, but when to press the button, that's a talent you've either already got or you haven't :wave:

Toothie

02-06-2008, 11:33

The capturing the moment thing is very subjective, much more so that the technical stuff. For example pictures of birds and motor sport do every little for me in a do i want that on my wall way, but i can look at the photos and think, well its sharp, its in focus, its well exposed there is good colour etc etc.

i take my photos for me and i have lots of photos that i really like but that others may find the subject of uninteresting. I also have photos i don't like much that other people think are great.

lee

02-06-2008, 12:04

* My point being that far too much emphasis on these forums is on 'technicalities'. Very little, it seems to me, is written about the art of capturing the moment.

As far as this image is concerned, does anyone really think that the above 'technical' comments actually outweigh the uniqueness of the image? In other words, if you were the mother in the shot, would you look at anything other than your child's expression?
In an average kids life how many pictures like this are they going to have?
Come to that how many pictures of your kids have you got that show so much happiness?
Most technical stuff can be quickly learnt, but when to press the button, that's a talent you've either already got or you haven't :wave:

Its difficult to tell someone how to capture the moment, but we can provide constructive criticism to help someone see the shots in a different way if need be, and provide advice on how you can improve your shots technically, which is what DD gave you following your request for an explanation. A good honest critique.

So do I feel that the technical aspects out weigh the uniqueness of the shot not really, but this is the difference between a snap shot for the family album (which is what you are showing us) and a quality photograph which captures the moment and becomes a something treasured and wants to be displayed on the fireplace or wall etc... which is what it could be if it was technically better and by accepting the advice provided.

Obviously all the above is my opinion and not meant to offend just an honest answer to a question.

Lee

photon

02-06-2008, 12:22

At the weekend I went - cameraless - to my village's May festival. Two years ago I took 1200 photos at the same event but the organisers embargoed virtually any use of the shots because of sensitivities about children. In the intervening time I had a request for prints of a guy with his friend who has since emigrated. I sorted out another shot and, standing in the background, was a guy who has since died. I think it's too early to offer any prints to his girlfriend but I'll sit on this collection until they're forgotten about and I'm sure they'll be appreciated, one day.

So to the OP, if you want the photo to be found, put it on a webpage with ALT and TITLE tags plus the location details in the text of the page, and someone will find it. Six degrees of separation and all that. I would love to see snaps of myself from long ago, at events I can remember going to. Never discard photos of people, without good reason.

divine`

02-06-2008, 12:52

As far as this image is concerned, does anyone really think that the above 'technical' comments actually outweigh the uniqueness of the image?

Not necessarily but they do, in my opinion go a lot of the way to making the difference between a family snap and a photograph.

I'm guessing everyone here has an interest in photography rather than just taking family snaps, so analysing the technical aspects is of benefit to everyone.

The picture is ok, the emotions are what makes it, however it could be so much more if the technicalities camera side were better.

digipix

02-06-2008, 12:57

100% correct 'CT'

Well noted!

mole2k

02-06-2008, 13:00

Not necessarily but they do, in my opinion go a lot of the way to making the difference between a family snap and a photograph.

I'm guessing everyone here has an interest in photography rather than just taking family snaps, so analysing the technical aspects is of benefit to everyone.

The picture is ok, the emotions are what makes it, however it could be so much more if the technicalities camera side were better.

I agree with devine, it's basically a balancing act. A photograph that captures the moment perfectly but is technically poor is nothing more than a nice snapshot. A perfectly captured image with little thought put into it is just a nice picture. Get the balance right and your sorted. :thumbs:

DiddyDave

02-06-2008, 13:39

* My point being that far too much emphasis on these forums is on 'technicalities'. Very little, it seems to me, is written about the art of capturing the moment.

As far as this image is concerned, does anyone really think that the above 'technical' comments actually outweigh the uniqueness of the image? In other words, if you were the mother in the shot, would you look at anything other than your child's expression?
In an average kids life how many pictures like this are they going to have?
Come to that how many pictures of your kids have you got that show so much happiness?
Most technical stuff can be quickly learnt, but when to press the button, that's a talent you've either already got or you haven't :wave:

The original question to me was - was this a Pointless image or not bearing in mind the fact that the parent doesn't know it exists, nor does the tog know them either - as such, yes I still think it's pointless; and your whole point here is pointless as they will never see this shot

A better photographer would have captured a better image regardless of your expertise in capturing the moment - that's what that boring technical stuff is all about - getting the techie stuff right allows you to concentrate on the art/moment knowing it'll be good

I doubt if Mr Bresson et al would be so revered if their 'Decisive Moment' images were technically very poor; and try telling a Bride & Groom that "Yes you're a funny colour, oddly positioned, and wrongly exposed - but hey - you're smiling!" and see what they think

Had the image been good in itself, and as your own family/fun shot, it would have had value - but it looks like a snap, and one that any child with a camera-phone could have achieved

DD

wingnut

02-06-2008, 14:27

Got to admit I am with DD on this one, a pointless image that is too technically wrong to be priceless.
Shallow depth of field, closer crop on mother and daughter, lower view point would all have turned it into a possible money making shot. But certainly not to the operators of the fair.

percymon

02-06-2008, 14:37

If it was a shot for your family album, then its a great representation of young fun at the fair - technically its maybe not the best, but its the emotion and feel factor thats high.

As it is, where you know none of the persons involved, its probably worth nothing except what the fair operator might pay you for it.

russbates

02-06-2008, 14:47

The original question to me was - was this a Pointless image or not bearing in mind the fact that the parent doesn't know it exists, nor does the tog know them either - as such, yes I still think it's pointless; and your whole point here is pointless as they will never see this shot

I doubt if Mr Bresson et al would be so revered if their 'Decisive Moment' images were technically very poor; and try telling a Bride & Groom that "Yes you're a funny colour, oddly positioned, and wrongly exposed - but hey - you're smiling!" and see what they think

DD

Not in response to this particular photo but to DD:

Many of Bressons images are technically poor and he has described them as this himself.

Well known photographic author Harold Evans suggested that photography practices are put in place to convey emotions or a significant event or moment. If a significant moment is captured even with the removal of these techniques and practices it should not be considered any less important. (im sure he put it more eloquently than that though!)

DiddyDave

02-06-2008, 15:23

Not in response to this particular photo but to DD:

Many of Bressons images are technically poor and he has described them as this himself.

Well known photographic author Harold Evans suggested that photography practices are put in place to convey emotions or a significant event or moment. If a significant moment is captured even with the removal of these techniques and practices it should not be considered any less important. (im sure he put it more eloquently than that though!)

Forgive me for not knowing much of Mr Bresson's work enough to have seen the crappy ones, there are a number of iconic ones that come to mind - and all are technically good IMHO - and if not 'perfect' they are certainly better than this sort of snap here

Next time someone comes into my studio for a portrait session of their nipper - I shan't bother getting the lighting right, crawling round for good focus & composition and obviously not worry about exposure either - so long as I get a character shot (smiling or no) that's all that'll matter to their mum & dad won't it ??? At least if Harold Evans is correct as I read it ??? I just can't help thinking a technically good shot (same image) would sell better than a technically poor one though

Sorry, but to me poor work is still poor work even if it captures a moment beautifully

If learning and applying a set of (pretty simple really) techniques can increase the chances of one's work NOT being seen as poor on a technical point, then the masterful artistry must shine through better - yes?

If it was all ONLY about the moment, we'd all have auto-only P&S cameras & DSLRs would have no manual option; books on photography would be fewer and simpler too yes ?:thinking:

Or am I :nuts::nuts::nuts:

DD

divine`

02-06-2008, 15:38

Sorry, but to me poor work is still poor work even if it captures a moment beautifully

DD

I think this is where the distinction lies for me.

If the work is poor, then it isn't possible for it to be 'captured beautifully'. If it's a beautiful capture, it's good work. The two things almost define each other.

You can capture a moment with poor work, but what you can't do is capture it beautifully. The original photo has captured the moment, sure, it hasn't managed to make it a beautiful capture though.

lee

02-06-2008, 15:39

There are other modes other than auto :eek:

Sorry DD couldn't resist :coat:

divine`

02-06-2008, 15:43

There are other modes other than auto :eek:

Yeah...

Sport, Landscape, Portrait, Night... :thumbs:

DiddyDave

02-06-2008, 15:44

There are other modes other than auto :eek:

Sorry DD couldn't resist :coat:

:lol::lol::lol:

DD

hotchef23

02-06-2008, 16:02

sorry to me pointless. a shot i would call the tourist shot, not composed or thought through, back ground really messy, far to much distraction. it is one the family would take to remeber a day out. not one a photographer would base thier portfolio on.

this to me is a deletable file not worth keeping unless the family asked for shots, but if they did i would expect them not to be happy with it.

i have answered the question asked by the poster as far as i am concerned, if not happy with answer then sorry this is my opinion to the question posed.

ivortripod

02-06-2008, 16:30

Many thanks to those who have taken the time to reply on this subject.
In general, the remarks made are reasonable and I will take them on board, next time I'm out and about with me Box-Brownie.
That being said, with some of the, what can only be described as 'barbed' comments, such contributors might like to know, that I was being paid for my very average snapper-skills more than forty years ago.

Words like 'Old Dog and New Tricks' spring to mind...
Cheers :thumbs:

DiddyDave

02-06-2008, 16:44

Words like 'Old Dog and New Tricks' spring to mind...
Cheers :thumbs:

I hope I'm not one of the 'barbed' ones, and tbh - I think most if not all have just posted honest thought with no malice intended

But I'm a pretty old hat too (not as old as you mind as a tog) and I still learn new tricks weekly & happily so

But sorry m8, but the image you posted here is not the quality of image I'd expect from someone who can't be taught a thing or two - in fact, I'd have thought it was from a complete newbie to photography tbh

:shrug:

And again, no malice or 'barbed' comment intended

:thumbs:

DD

tazza-oz

02-06-2008, 16:55

I couldn't word it as good as C.T has :shrug: and certainly agee with his very constructive comments :thumbs:

Lateralus

02-06-2008, 17:35

Ashers

02-06-2008, 19:31

well diddy dave thats the kind of shot i do too.... and i feel i dont need to know any technical stuff. and i consider my photos good.

hotchef23

02-06-2008, 19:40

I completely agree with the quote above--in my photos, I try to capture
emotion more than anything else--well said:thumbs:

unfortunatly that is not what was questioned by the poster, if he had explained this to start with, then maybe a different perspective on the shot and critique.

but his posting is clear: is it worth while or not and i would suggest re reading the three points made by the poster.

they dont match this post made by the gentleman that you have agreed with so again this post is out of context with the original post.

some of the best photo jouranislt pictures of capturing the moment are technically spot on, unless you can prove me wrong.

if all you can see is a grimace in a blurred photo no back ground out of focus fuzzy. why is the person grimmacing? bus just been blown up or have they just filled their pants. most news togs will give full story including the grimmace. so agree to some point with your post. but look at newspapers and images of strife emotion around the world and it will include the whole shooting match.

DiddyDave

02-06-2008, 21:43

well diddy dave thats the kind of shot i do too.... and i feel i dont need to know any technical stuff. and i consider my photos good.

Good on you then, perhaps yours are great technically too - but the OP's one isn't

To sum up this thread then...

We have quite a few who seem to care about the techie side who also want to capture the moment - but well

And a few happy with any old crap so long as there's a smiley face, grin, pained expression - exposure, composition, colour, etc. matter not one jot it seems

Why you wouldn't want to take/show an image that is both 'the moment' and good technically I can't imagine

:bang::bang::bang:

DD

russbates

02-06-2008, 23:32

Good on you then, perhaps yours are great technically too - but the OP's one isn't

Why you wouldn't want to take/show an image that is both 'the moment' and good technically I can't imagine

:bang::bang::bang:

DD

Obviously thats what you strive for but alot of the time it doesn't always come together. :)

Graelwyn

03-06-2008, 12:48

If it had been me, if I am honest, I would have gone for both. I would have zoomed in and attempted to capture either movement or the expressions on the faces closer up. I would have wanted less in the scene, but enough to convey the joy and the freeze the moment.

I love shooting moments and freezing character and emotion, but I do try and get in closer generally, and convert to black and white when it doesn't look as I wished it.

hotchef23

03-06-2008, 12:59

Magnum

03-06-2008, 17:35

ivortripod

04-06-2008, 08:53

Thanks all for reading this topic, and I hope that you found it helpful

PS: A bit trite maybe, but we all know pictures speak louder then words..so it's interesting that not one photographer has posted up any example of their own work to directly compare with the 'snap' that started this topic... [Similar: location/lighting/subjects/expressions]

Goodbye :wave:

Eau Rouge

04-06-2008, 09:59

As far as this image is concerned, does anyone really think that the above 'technical' comments actually outweigh the uniqueness of the image?

I see two different "technical" parts here, those you can change during the conversion and those you can't.
Those you can't really change later (aperture, shutter speed, basic composition) are things you should be thinking about, obviously, but I agree with you that they don't really detract from the uniqueness of this image.

The other stuff, White Balance, crop, small exposure adjustment, contrast etc though, are technical things you do when you convert the RAW file into an image. The uniqueness of this image is no excuse for it having bad WB.

hotchef23

04-06-2008, 10:24

:shrug:Thanks all for reading this topic, and I hope that you found it helpful

PS: A bit trite maybe, but we all know pictures speak louder then words..so it's interesting that not one photographer has posted up any example of their own work to directly compare with the 'snap' that started this topic... [Similar: location/lighting/subjects/expressions]

Goodbye :wave:

if you had asked for comparison shots then you may of had some. but that is not what yoou asked for the shot was poor you placed for critiquee got it and now throw your toys out the pram.

ohh so sorry we answered your question, if you cant take that then dont post with questions attached.

sorry if this is to the point and blunt, but you changed the goal posts as we went. most didnt and answered your first post!:bang::bang::bang: :shrug::wave:

photon

04-06-2008, 11:01

Here's ivortripod's shot with a bit of PP (contrast mask, half-stop increase in exposure, saturation reduced):

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/gallery/data/500/dodgems-by-ivortripod-pp-by-photon-b.jpg

And here's something similar of mine:

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/gallery/data/500/dodgems-by-photon-b.jpg

I don't like the WB of the exterior background in mine. As for comments about the OP's WB, I regard them as nonsense, because the subjects are under strongly coloured lights. If you want to see white as white under those conditions, who are you trying to fool?

At this range with a non-telephoto, you're not going to get a narrow depth of field, and I think it's entirely appropriate that much is in focus, because that's what non-togs want to see. In ivortripod's shot I feel the boy on the left could've been the brother of the main subject and it's a common failing to centre the focus of attention in the heat of the moment and so in this case perhaps not include the girl's father. I would've cropped the area of no interest on the right, of the shot as taken.

Wayned

04-06-2008, 11:05

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/gallery/data/1771/Great_Catch_edited-1.jpg

This conversation brings to mind this picture I took in bad light, obviously at a seconds notice, with settings all over the place and a rubbish background. I was originally just taking photographs of what was happening in the middle.
I know, as does the original poster, that this is also technically poor. Personally, when I loaded it onto the PC I was dead chuffed at what I'd captured.
I think the best policy, if you don't want experts pawing over your shots is not to post them in the first place.
As for the original image; As a personal family photo, it's great. For that kid to see herself with her mum(?) in twenty years time would be priceless.
But to strangers, it might just want to make you to go on the Dodgems with the kids, but not much more.
If you like it then you like it. If we all liked the same stuff you wouldn't be able to move at every duck pond in the land etc. for togs trying to get the best shots!
I like it but I can also see how another would not.

divine`

04-06-2008, 11:41

PS: A bit trite maybe, but we all know pictures speak louder then words..so it's interesting that not one photographer has posted up any example of their own work to directly compare with the 'snap' that started this topic... [Similar: location/lighting/subjects/expressions]

Goodbye :wave:

Is there any point in posting pictures on a site and asking for critique when you just dismiss it all out of hand, then go on to imply that everyone who said it wasn't good just isn't as good as you?

Why did you post it at all? So you could go on a little ego trip? It seems you have no interest in actually taking on board anyone else's opinions and comments unless they agree with you and like the picture.

If may be so bold - pull your head out your own arse in future.

:wave:

nigelcampbell

04-06-2008, 12:23

I think you're getting confused ivortripod.

What you have done in this image is "frozen" a moment in time.

Leaving aside all the technical issues which are all something that can be improved over time, simply stopping the action is not all that matters.

To "capture" a moment in time implies that there will be some emotional weight in the image. As a very basic example, if the crop was tighter on the mother and child that would fall very nicely into this category.

I fully appreciate the point you are trying to make - that some people get too caught up with technicalities and kit rather than focussing on the "art" of photography, that of choosing your subject and the moment and composing your shots. However, many of the comments you received covered just those aspects.

As for your intial points about selling the image - does the price tag dictate it's value? It seems unlikely - And if you can only judge the value of your own images by the price you could get for them then I think that you are missing the point. If your intention however is to make money by selling your shots, then you need to target. If you are selling to the fairground owner - ask him/her what they would like to see and then shoot to order. If you are selling to the mother and daughter then a close up would be better.

I have been shooting for 25 years and I learn new things everyday. I have not always agreed with the C+C that I see in the forums or even occaisionally that I have received myself, but I would never complain that those commenting should justify their comments by showing similar shots.
Just as I can choose to find things not to like about Constable's Haywain without ever having attempted an oil painting myself.

ivortripod

04-06-2008, 14:17

Quote:'' pull your head out your own arse ''

Guess I'll bow to your far greater experience in such matters :thumbs:

Magnum

04-06-2008, 16:33

With all respect, you have asked for criticism and took the criticism you recieved in the wrong way.
The criticism you have got out of this thread is very constructive and can only help you to improve.

You asked if the pic was 'pointless'. No one has called it pointless.

You also said that any comments are welcome, none of which were rude or undermining.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2290/2540489707_68eb10d686.jpg

Is this image, made yesterday, a priceless shot of a mother and daughter, or is it a pointless shot when you consider the following:
1] I don't know who they are
2] If I tried to find out would I be accused of 'something weird in my motive'
3] I could try to sell it to the fair operator, but they could also be suspicious

Any comments would be most welcome

ivortripod

04-06-2008, 17:35

Sorry Magnum, but you do want to get your facts right.
More than one reply has said the shot is pointless, and as for rude , well perhaps you've been looking at the wrong forum.
To date there has been almost a thousand viewing this topic and an interesting range of comments, positive and negative, which, together with the 'technical' input, I have already acknowledged, more than once.
Sadly, although this is generally a good-natured forum, there is always going to be contributors, like 'Divine', who completely misunderstand the original point of the posting.
People like them, do neither the forum, nor themselves, any favours by resorting to childish foul-mouthing :thumbsdown: