What makes a professional photographer?

[Badger UK]

A week or so ago, Techno Geek gave a great definition of what makes a professional photographer. He said that the difference between a pro and an amateur is ‘how sharp the images are and how sharp an image needs to be before they see the image as acceptable’.

I thought it was a great definition and very, very true.

What do you see as the defining attributes of a photographer that makes them ‘professional’?

[Graelwyn]

The ability to remain critical of their own work, the ability to produce images to please those who would be paying them and the combined forces of a good artistic eye and a good grounding in the technical side of things...that is just my opinion.

[EdinburghGary]

Earning a good living from creating good images.

Gary.

[Yv]

Sorry for the obvious reply, but THEY get paid! I have seen incredibly brilliant work from purely amateurs on here and lousy 'professional' shots that are sold either through event/wedding photography and stuff, or on stock sites.

Call me a cynic, but when exactly do you stop being an amateur and start being a pro - when you sell your first print? When you are regularly selling work, or when its your sole source of income? :shrug: Depends on who you are asking really.

[NorthernNikon]

A week or so ago, Techno Geek gave a great definition of what makes a professional photographer. He said that the difference between a pro and an amateur is ‘how sharp the images are and how sharp an image needs to be before they see the image as acceptable’.

I thought it was a great definition and very, very true.

What do you see as the defining attributes of a photographer that makes them ‘professional’?

I don't think thew shaprness of the images has anything to do with it. Being professional has nothing to do with photographic ability, it has everything to do with business acumen. You are a professional photographer is you can turn a regular profit from photography, nothing more, nothing less. You could be the worst photographer in the world but if people want to pay for your images you're a professional. You could be technically accomplished but having never made any money, either by choice or not, you're purely an amateur.

Far too much emphasis is placed on what a professional photographer is. Who cares? Why bother? If you're bothered by that measure it by income, if not measure it my competitions won, if not measure it by number of exhibitions staged, if not measure it by the reaction you get when you show your shots to friends and family. Until photography becomes a profession where, like doctros and lawyers, you have to be a member of a professional body to trade, the point is moot.

[Jayst84]

Well these threads are popping up all over the place lately aren't they. I don't think it matters one jot whether anyone calls themselves or anyone else a professional.

I suppose from the very little thought I've given it, I'd call a pro anyone who's major income is through their photography. Saying that, I suppose they could be a pro tog who also brings in 200k a year trading stocks and securities. I guess it's just someone who does regular jobs for money then.

How good they are doesn't come into it IMO, if they're bad, they're just that, a bad professional, same as any other industry.

[yourapocalypse]

Earning a good living from creating good images.

Gary.

Take both instances of the word 'good' from that statement and I agree.

[EdinburghGary]

Take both instances of the word 'good' from that statement and I agree.

Fair Do's. Mr "Turn Your Kid Into a Plastic Doll" is clearly a pro then. Do you agree?


Judge his work here, and his prices

http://naturalbeautiescontest.homestead.com/retoucha.html


Gary.

[TheKrikkitWars]

A week or so ago, Techno Geek gave a great definition of what makes a professional photographer. He said that the difference between a pro and an amateur is ‘how sharp the images are and how sharp an image needs to be before they see the image as acceptable’.

I thought it was a great definition and very, very true.

What do you see as the defining attributes of a photographer that makes them ‘professional’?

Answer in quote form:


Professionals do it as a profession, they specialise in making money from it, hence why the events photographers who trawl school proms and uni balls, can produce results which are sometimes frankly crap and definately mass produced.

People who shoot "Pro Level" photos (right up to the level of maybe especially people like David Bailey, Lord Snowdon and Annie Leibovitz), are frequently following what is known as a vocation... They're getting paid for doing something they enjoy.

I'd like to be the latter, should I ever reach the point that I'm good enough to make a consistent profit, from my results.

I'd go a step further and say that a pro earns a living from it, obviously with doing other things such as exhibitions etc.

[NorthernNikon]

Fair Do's. Mr "Turn Your Kid Into a Plastic Doll" is clearly a pro then. Do you agree?.

You obviously have an issue with this, but I fail to see why. If he takes the photos and he turns a profit, he's a professional. Simply.

[fletch5]

pro photo editor yes.

pro means nothing, just sounds slightly better, if you want to hire a tog, check there website or portfolio and decide if your happy with them. there are a few pros on here i would hire and a few hobbyists as well.

[EdinburghGary]

You obviously have an issue with this, but I fail to see why. If he takes the photos and he turns a profit, he's a professional. Simply.

Not got an issue as such, it's like buying a cake from a shop, which tastes like sh*t and saying, the baker is a pro, just because he sells loads.

I don't think selling = pro, I think selling = good salesman. HUGE difference.

Yes Car Credit sold THOUSANDS of cars per month a few years back, nothing pro about their operation. In fact it was the exact opposite.

Gary.

[marko400d]

the world is full of very talented people who struggle to make a living from the great art they produce. it's also full of untalented people making a decent living from producing cr*p.

i thought a pro was someone who made a living from what they did until i read gary's last statement, and now i'm confused

[NorthernNikon]

Not got an issue as such, it's like buying a cake from a shop, which tastes like sh*t and saying, the baker is a pro, just because he sells loads.

I don't think selling = pro, I think selling = good salesman. HUGE difference.

Yes Car Credit sold THOUSANDS of cars per month a few years back, nothing pro about their operation. In fact it was the exact opposite.

Gary.

No offence Gary, but you've simply have twisted the meaning of "professional" to mean far more than it does.

Take your point about the baker, when was the last time a baker did a sales job on you? If he or she are professional, they turn a regular profit. That could be down to a whole host of reasons but none of them alter the fact that he is a professional.

[NorthernNikon]

i thought a pro was someone who made a living from what they did until i read gary's last statement, and now i'm confused

I don't see why, Gary is simply wrong. No confusion there! :p

[EdinburghGary]

the world is full of very talented people who struggle to make a living from the great art they produce. it's also full of untalented people making a decent living from producing cr*p.

i thought a pro was someone who made a living from what they did until i read gary's last statement, and now i'm confused

Scammers and con artists cannot fairly be called professional. If I set up a site and steal 1,000 photos and sell them, I am not a pro, I am a thief.

If I set up a car company, and sell lots of dodgy unsafe motors, and make 10 million, I am not a pro, I am a law breaking criminal deserving of a serious jail term.

If I take CRAP photos and manage to use pushy sales techniques to make a million, I am not a pro photographer, I am a potentially very good salesman.

I had the police at my door about 9 months ago as we had students selling ART for £200 a piece. Only the vulnerable were buying it. Pro artists or conmen?

Making money does not = pro, simple.

Gary.

[marko400d]

hey, i thought barney had sorted this out for me, now i'm confused again :lol:

[EdinburghGary]

No offence Gary, but you've simply have twisted the meaning of "professional" to mean far more than it does.


I have twisted nothing, it can mean any number of things, hence the debate.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:professional&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

It is totally open to be interperated a huge number of ways. All I am saying is, its not as black and white as mamking money = pro.

Gary.

[68lbs]

I think the issue here is that the term 'professional' has a number of meanings, not just those derived from it's relation to the word 'profession'.

[EdinburghGary]

I don't see why, Gary is simply wrong. No confusion there! :p

In your opinion ;) :D

[EdinburghGary]

I think the issue here is that the term 'professional' has a number of meanings, not just those derived from it's relation to the word 'profession'.

Exactly. :)

[marko400d]

shall we start a new thread called Is Gary wrong? :lol:

[NorthernNikon]

Scammers and con artists cannot fairly be called professional. If I set up a site and steal 1,000 photos and sell them, I am not a pro, I am a thief.

Who's talking about scammers and theives? We're not, we're talking about photographers.

If I take CRAP photos and manage to use pushy sales techniques to make a million, I am not a pro photography, I am a potentially very good salesman.

Yes you are!!! That's the whole point. You think that all professional photograhers don't have to be good sales people? Or good book keepers? Or good marketeers? Or all the other business functions they have to juggle that come with being a small set up?

[arronbarnes]

I don't think thew shaprness of the images has anything to do with it. Being professional has nothing to do with photographic ability, it has everything to do with business acumen. You are a professional photographer is you can turn a regular profit from photography, nothing more, nothing less. You could be the worst photographer in the world but if people want to pay for your images you're a professional. You could be technically accomplished but having never made any money, either by choice or not, you're purely an amateur.

Far too much emphasis is placed on what a professional photographer is. Who cares? Why bother? If you're bothered by that measure it by income, if not measure it my competitions won, if not measure it by number of exhibitions staged, if not measure it by the reaction you get when you show your shots to friends and family. Until photography becomes a profession where, like doctros and lawyers, you have to be a member of a professional body to trade, the point is moot.

Completely agree with you Northern Nikon, I think some people look too deeply into the word "professional". There are good professionals and bad professionals out there in ever walk of life from football to photography, doctors to lawyers, the plain fact remains that whether they are good or bad they still earn their living from their chosen career.

[68lbs]

wtf? A professional photographer can be someone who is proficient at taking a photograph. Proficient having nothing to do with making money, but relating to someone's skill level in a particular task.

[StevieF8]

A professional photographer is someone who makes money from photography
some are good at this and some are poor but professionals none-the-less

Look at footballers for example, Fernando Torres and Stevie Gerrard are professional footballers and just about 2 of the best players in the World

on the other hand Titus Bramble and Djimi Traore are also 'professional' footballers - they get paid for their profession but both are *****

People who make money from pictures and work at another job are semi pro's who either don't feel confident enough to go pro or don't have the oppertunity

People who shoot a wedding for a mate who bungs them 50 quid and buys them drinks at the reception is a lucky amature who got paid for a one off

imo - of course! ;)

[EdinburghGary]

Who's talking about scammers and theives? We're not, we're talking about photographers.



Yes you are!!! That's the whole point. You think that all professional photograhers don't have to be good sales people? Or good book keepers? Or good marketeers? Or all the other business functions they have to juggle that come with being a small set up?

What I am saying, a very good sales person, does not have to be a good photographer. Therefore the profession of taking a good photo need not apply, and if that is the case, said person cannot be called a professional photographer. He can maybe be called a very good salesman, who happens to sell bad photos.

Gary.

[EdinburghGary]

wtf? A professional photographer can be someone who is proficient at taking a photograph. Proficient having nothing to do with making money, but relating to someone's skill level in a particular task.

My take too ;)

[PsiFox]

A professional photographer is someone who makes money from photography
some are good at this and some are poor but professionals none-the-less

Look at footballers for example, Fernando Torres and Stevie Gerrard are professional footballers and just about 2 of the best players in the World

on the other hand Titus Bramble and Djimi Traore are also 'professional' footballers - they get paid for their profession but both are *****

People who make money from pictures and work at another job are semi pro's who either don't feel confident enough to go pro or don't have the oppertunity

People who shoot a wedding for a mate who bungs them 50 quid and buys them drinks at the reception is a lucky amature who got paid for a one off

imo - of course! ;)

This is my take except as I hate fotball the names mean nothing.

[arronbarnes]

The definition from some random online dictionary :lol:

Dictionary - professional - 8 entries.
1. a. - Of or pertaining to a profession, or calling; conforming to the rules or standards of a profession; following a profession; as, professional knowledge; professional conduct.

2. a. - Engaged in by professionals; as, a professional race; -- opposed to amateur.

3. Noun - A person who prosecutes anything professionally, or for a livelihood, and not in the character of an amateur; a professional worker.

4. adjective - Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession:

5. adjective - Conforming to the standards of a profession:

6. adjective - Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career:

7. adjective - Performed by persons receiving pay:

8. adjective - Having or showing great skill; expert:

[NorthernNikon]

wtf? A professional photographer can be someone who is proficient at taking a photograph. Proficient having nothing to do with making money, but relating to someone's skill level in a particular task.

No it can't. You can have a 'professional' job which relates to a certain level of craft, but you can't have a professional craftsman without the element of pay. You can of course have a craftsman do a 'professional' job without being paid if it's his hobby. but that in no means makes him a professional.

[ivortripod]

A professional photographer uses photography to make a living.
A professional photographer uses photography to make a living.
A professional photographer uses photography to make a living.
A professional photographer uses photography to make a living.

So that's that, next question....please :bonk:

[dogyakker]

I think professional is far more about attitude than about ability.

Take a wedding tog who turns up 2 hours late and misses the bride getting ready and arriving at the church - he has no valid reason but offers to reproduce the photos at a later date. Professional? I think not!

Even if the photos he later produces are the best you've ever seen it would not be the same, there would not be everyone in the crowd that was there, the weather might be different, and more importantly it could potentially ruin your day.

Professional is about the whole package - just because tyou earn a living from it doesnt mean you are professional. Likewise there are many "amatuers" who are far more professional than so called pros.

Chris
ps i accept the example may not be the best but it was the easiest I could think of!

[arronbarnes]

No it can't. You can have a 'professional' job which relates to a certain level of craft, but you can't have a professional craftsman without the element of pay. You can of course have a craftsman do a 'professional' job without being paid if it's his hobby. but that in no means makes him a professional.

Oh no :eek: thats twice I have agreed with Northern Nikon :lol:

[EdinburghGary]

I think professional is far more about attitude than about ability.

Take a wedding tog who turns up 2 hours late and misses the bride getting ready and arriving at the church - he has no valid reason but offers to reproduce the photos at a later date. Professional? I think not!

Even if the photos he later produces are the best you've ever seen it would not be the same, there would not be everyone in the crowd that was there, the weather might be different, and more importantly it could potentially ruin your day.

Professional is about the whole package - just because tyou earn a living from it doesnt mean you are professional. Likewise there are many "amatuers" who are far more professional than so called pros.

Chris
ps i accept the example may not be the best but it was the easiest I could think of!

Don't you love free speech :D

Agree with your post.

G.

[68lbs]

No it can't. You can have a 'professional' job which relates to a certain level of craft, but you can't have a professional craftsman without the element of pay. You can of course have a craftsman do a 'professional' job without being paid if it's his hobby. but that in no means makes him a professional.

Point 8 of that dictionary quotation :P

[dod]

imo - of course! ;)

It's not a bad IMO though ;)

A professional photographer who isn't a good salesman (or more accurately, businessman) won't be a professional photographer very long. He'll be a photographer serving fries.

[arronbarnes]

I think professional is far more about attitude than about ability.

Take a wedding tog who turns up 2 hours late and misses the bride getting ready and arriving at the church - he has no valid reason but offers to reproduce the photos at a later date. Professional? I think not!

Even if the photos he later produces are the best you've ever seen it would not be the same, there would not be everyone in the crowd that was there, the weather might be different, and more importantly it could potentially ruin your day.

Professional is about the whole package - just because tyou earn a living from it doesnt mean you are professional. Likewise there are many "amatuers" who are far more professional than so called pros.

Chris
ps i accept the example may not be the best but it was the easiest I could think of!

I think this is professionalism, not being a professional imo :thinking:

There is a massive difference, although professionalism is derived from professional!!

[TheKrikkitWars]

No it can't. You can have a 'professional' job which relates to a certain level of craft, but you can't have a professional craftsman without the element of pay. You can of course have a craftsman do a 'professional' job without being paid if it's his hobby. but that in no means makes him a professional.

NorthernNikon is right!

[ShawWellPete]

I like this new smilie

As for the argument - I don't care

:thinking:

[Iain MacIntosh]

I have to agree to some extent with Gary but I understand NotherNikon also its very hard to define the 'Pro' tag.

If you judging 'Pro' on standard of work, is this really not all down to how a photograph is perceived , for example theres work posted on here that some call good and some of us see as not good. Now we are togs with generally an eye for a photograph but even we see differences. Hows a client going to tell the differenece, either he likes it or not.

For me Pro, means more than taking a picture. Attitude, service, working to schedule, working to clients remits and getting paid for a fair days work.

I think this debate has only really come alive since digital cams have taken off and everyone is 'photographer'. Not ever going to be an easy situation that can be resolved. End of the day its up to the client to commision/buy or not.

Just my two bob's worth.

Iain

[dogyakker]

What do you see as the defining attributes of a photographer that makes them ‘professional’?

Hmm good point about a professional but the original question doesnt read like that to me. It asks what makes a photographer professional not a professional.

This is all getting kinda hair splittery though, at the end of the day does it matter? Surely a photographer paid for his work who acts in an unprofessional manner wouldnt be a paid photographer for very long and henceforth would soon be demoted to the ranks of amatuer?

And .... I sold 20 pics today! (Yay me!) Does that make me a "pro"? Take a look at my images - I think not! I am distinctly amatuer but I approach anything I am asked to do very professionally. (I think)

Chris

[Snowball]

Oh my god, I have just seen the site Gary posted with the girl that has been changed into a toy... That is friggin awful!!! How the hell does he sell them, she looks like a new barbie toy, her eyes are screwed and her... well, it's just bad bad bad! :gag::puke:

[EdinburghGary]

Oh my god, I have just seen the site Gary posted with the girl that has been changed into a toy... That is friggin awful!!! How the hell does he sell them, she looks like a new barbie toy, her eyes are screwed and her... well, it's just bad bad bad! :gag::puke:



He's a pro remember ;)

[arronbarnes]

Whooooohoooooooooooo

[ShawWellPete]

Oh my god, I have just seen the site Gary posted with the girl that has been changed into a toy... That is friggin awful!!! How the hell does he sell them, she looks like a new barbie toy, her eyes are screwed and her... well, it's just bad bad bad! :gag::puke:

:agree:

[Iain MacIntosh]

Yeah, I mean I like my processing but that makes me feel very uncomfortable seeing that on that subject manner...

[dod]

no more smiley stuff here please. Despite the fact it's just about impossible to agree, it's a serious thread and doesn't deserve to be dragged into the depths. You'll find the posts in Out of focus

[Snowball]

He's a pro remember ;)

Wow, people are really watching this debate go - I cannot believe someone who does this can be called 'Pro', it's frankly ri-di-cooooolas! :shrug:

Sod it, if he can make money turning people into freaks, then so can I!

I'm going to hand my resignation in right now! Let me get me, oh, thank you:coat:

[Werecow]

I just take it as making their living from photography. Same as any other job thats called a professional something or other.

[mmcp42]

so what is a tradesman then?

[WeddingHack]

Pro Photographer is a title that amateur photographers debate endlessly about.

A person that makes their living from photography simply calls themselves a photographer.

:)

[Toothie]

Sorry for the obvious reply, but THEY get paid! I have seen incredibly brilliant work from purely amateurs on here and lousy 'professional' shots that are sold either through event/wedding photography and stuff, or on stock sites.

Call me a cynic, but when exactly do you stop being an amateur and start being a pro - when you sell your first print? When you are regularly selling work, or when its your sole source of income? :shrug: Depends on who you are asking really.

Well said LL

My insurance company defines it as earning the majority of your income through your photography and im happy with that definition.

[dellipher]

Who's talking about scammers and theives? We're not, we're talking about photographers.

Theres plenty of "pro" photographers out there, who rip people off, and turn out bad work.

Surely they're scammers? :lol:

[Mike D]

wtf? A professional photographer can be someone who is proficient at taking a photograph. Proficient having nothing to do with making money, but relating to someone's skill level in a particular task.

I'm definately a professional, but I agree with the quote above.
Well said 68lbs:D

[Toothie]

A week or so ago, Techno Geek gave a great definition of what makes a professional photographer. He said that the difference between a pro and an amateur is ‘how sharp the images are and how sharp an image needs to be before they see the image as acceptable’.

I thought it was a great definition and very, very true.

What do you see as the defining attributes of a photographer that makes them ‘professional’?

I mentioned this in another thread (not sure which one)

On my recent course the pro photographer said that was the difference between a pro and an amateur not what makes you a pro. Making money is what makes you a pro!

[fracster]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........thud!

[Mike D]

Thoughty I'd look the word up in the Oxford dictionary.
Professional "practising for a livelihood or money"

What more can we say?::bang:

[Tomas Whitehouse]

Personally, I define a professional as a person(s) who is highly qualified in their field of work/activities and gets a job done with exceptional results.
In addition, I adopt the expectation that he/she would be enlightening and educational to interact with and in most cases take pleasure and enjoyment in the teachings of others.

Joe Mcnally (for example), I would deem a very good example of a professional in my opinion.

In any 'professional' grade of any craft, one must also master the art of business if he/she is to survive/sustain/succeed/prevail.

I lean toward the right honourable Sir Gary Of Edinburgh although Sir Nikon Of the North has raised some quite viable issues, I do wish to add the following however:

It seems the term 'proffesional' is used in all kinds of activities in which people choose to engage themselves.
There are so called 'professional' con artists/fraudsters/thieves/scammers/assassins etc which should announce that there is more than one issue being addressed here: Honest/good/moral/exemplary 'proffesionals/proffesions'.

Thesaurus
professional
adjective
* a thoroughly professional performance expert, accomplished, skillful, masterly, masterful, fine, polished, skilled, proficient, competent, able, experienced, practiced, trained, seasoned, businesslike, deft; informal ace, crack, top-notch. antonym amateurish.
* not a professional way to behave appropriate, fitting, proper, honorable, ethical, correct, comme il faut. antonym inappropriate, unethical.

Dash and blazes, I've ran out of beer :( Play nicely folks ;)

[AliB]

Or in terms of photographic insurance (admittedly only one company). Professional= deriving more than 50% of your annual income from photography.

I don't think the term professional is being used in the same context by all of us here. Some use it as a measure of proficiency in actually taking a photo, others, simply the business case.

My own take on it is that if you derive the majority of your annual income from photography then you are a professional photographer. There are good ones and bad ones, just like any other profession.

[Toothie]

In any 'professional' grade of any craft, one must also master the art of business if he/she is to survive/sustain/succeed/prevail.


So not true im a professional (not a pro tog) and i have no business sense and i dont need any!

[Tomas Whitehouse]

So not true im a professional (not a pro tog) and i have no business sense and i dont need any!

Hi, I'm sorry I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean, I don't mean any offence at all, I'm just referring to the hole registered company, vat, book keeping, accountant, tax returns etc side of things.

all the best
T.

[Toothie]

Hi, I'm sorry I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean, I don't mean any offence at all, I'm just referring to the hole registered company, vat, book keeping, accountant, tax returns etc side of things.

all the best
T.

Im saying you don't need to master the art of business to be a professional, you can always pay other pros to do that bit for you and some pros like myself have no need for it at all.

no offence ment or taken :D

[Tomas Whitehouse]

Im saying you don't need to master the art of business to be a professional, you can always pay other pros to do that bit for you and some pros like myself have no need for it at all.

no offence ment or taken :D

Ok cool, then I would say that you are looking after your business side Toothie, you pay for a service so you can focus solely on your work (and social/family life), that to me is far more professional than amateur and imo supports my point. :D

[Moadib]

Not got an issue as such, it's like buying a cake from a shop, which tastes like sh*t and saying, the baker is a pro, just because he sells loads.

I don't think selling = pro, I think selling = good salesman. HUGE difference.

Yes Car Credit sold THOUSANDS of cars per month a few years back, nothing pro about their operation. In fact it was the exact opposite.

Gary.

But it was their PROFESSION, hence, PROFESSIONAL, or "Pro".

If we ascribe other, broader, interpretations of "Pro", then it gets more difficult to judge, but at its most basic, it would be their profession. It would not ordinarily apply to photography (primarily to teaching, law etc), hence the difficulty to apply - there is no accepted judging criteria.

[Magnum]

In my opinion, a pro needs to have qualifications and get paid for the job. This doesnt mean an A level in photography, but to actually have studied for several years and acheived diplomas etc. Also, years of experience.

[sportysnaps]

What is a pro??
I think a pro is someone who provides a photographic service at a quality and price point to a paying customer who is very happy with the result.

A customer paying £50 for a wedding photographer(for example) should have lower expectations than one paying £500 or £5000, a pro will know his price point and stick to it (until he/she is better) a person who does not is either misguided or a conman - depending on intent

I also think that common attributes that pros have:

1) They attend a photo shoot with more then one camera/lens/flash (to cover breakdowns)

2) They turn up on time, dressed and equipped appropriately and do the work required by the customer and get paid for it (with the customer happy) with regular paid work every month/week – depending on the assignment/job

3) They have camera insurance, public liability and indemnity insurance

4) They have (tax) accounts and have a large collection of receipts, batteries and memory cards

5) They have a business bank account

6) They have their own domain i.e.
www.myname.com
not
www.yahoo/photographers/uk/south/SouthLeftABit/myname.co.uk

7) They have an assorted collection of flyer's, business cards, posters and photo albums, for promoting the business

8) They have a collection of magazines, newspapers and website addresses of paid published work to show clients

9) They know their kit inside out and know how to use all the functions, and are able to correctly select the best settings for all situations that you are paid for, together with a composition that is in line with the client’s needs and expectations

10) Will turn away work due to demand/choice/taste/price

11) Have some business sense :thinking:


If you cannot identify any of the above then you are not be a pro,:shake: if you “can tick all the boxes above” then you must be a pro :clap:– or in need of professional help….:cuckoo:

Below is the three things that I do not think are necessary to be a pro

1) Have the best kit
2) Be the best photographer in the country
3) Have your sole income from photography

[susie]

If you cannot identify any of the above then you are not be a pro,:shake: if you “can tick all the boxes above” then you must be a pro :clap:– or in need of professional help….:cuckoo:


Snipped

I could tick more than 50% of that list, but since the biggest problem I would have is number 9 I would not say I am a pro therefore I must need professional :help:


Its a hard one, I think the definition would vary from person to person, and one of the best definitions I heard many years ago was that the difference between a pro and an amateur is attitude, not only in photography but in all vocations. A pro in any industry will have the required training and qualifications (if required), and to me all the things you have listed would come under the heading of attitude. In photography there are amateurs on here who could tick most of those items and would by their experience do a better job for some clients than a lot of so called pros who make a living from photography so who is the pro :shrug:

[Toothie]

Ok cool, then I would say that you are looking after your business side Toothie, you pay for a service so you can focus solely on your work (and social/family life), that to me is far more professional than amateur and imo supports my point. :D

I work for the NHS so i don't need to look after it, but yeah i can kinda see what your getting at:)

[digitalmaniac]

They have to look like an italian opera character sorry papa lol

[NorthernNikon]

A customer paying £50 for a wedding photographer(for example) should have lower expectations than one paying £500 or £5000, a pro will know his price point and stick to it (until he/she is better) a person who does not is either misguided or a conman - depending on intent

If you go out for a meal at La Gavroche or to Cafe Rouge the prices are worlds apart but either way it's still cooked by a professional chef.

A wedding tog can charge £500 and make £200 profit, another charges £5000 but makes £100 profit, who is more 'professional'?

[Aperture87]

The right contacts.

[digitalmaniac]

The chef LOL But only if its a rat atoille:lol:

[wingnut]

I don't think anyone can call themselves professional, surely that title is what others who have seen your work, worked with you, have commissioned you to do work for them, give you based on their opinions of you and your quality of work and your conduct?

I make a nice living from my photography, but i am not classing myself as a professional, I have another job and that pays 75% of my bills, in that job I am a professional and feel proud to be classed as one, I never gave myself that title the company has given it me because of the way I conduct myself, my quality of work and attitude towards my work.
In my photography some of my clients have sent me messages of thankes for the work i have done for them, they were very very pleased with the images I produced but they were over the moon in the way I conducted myself and my professionalism in the way i dealt with their requests and dealt with the wedding guests. They used the term professional, but I don't call myself one. I even picked up a confirmed booking at the same gig without the client even seeing my work, it was all based on how I conducted myself and my ability to talk to people as people not just another job and make everyone feel at ease having their picture taken..

4) They have (tax) accounts and have a large collection of receipts, batteries and memory cards

When piled up which should be taller, because currently my receipt bill pile is fast catching up my stack of batteries and memory cards!!

[MKD]

Definition of Professional:
Following an occupation (a persons usual or principle work or business) as a means of a livelihood or for gain.

I think people are getting confused because nowhere is there any reference to skill level or ability, so it comes down to earning money doing an occupation.

[mmcp42]

Definition of Professional:
Following an occupation (a persons usual or principle work or business) as a means of a livelihood or for gain.

I think people are getting confused because nowhere is there any reference to skill level or ability, so it comes down to earning money doing an occupation.

isn't that the same as a tradesman though?

so what's the difference between a trade and a profession?
I think the professions are those that have a serious impact on other people's lives - doctors, lawyers and so on.
but then - think of the oldest profession :shrug:
(no qualifications, no exams, precious little standards - just charge for services rendered (allegedly) )

amateur - does it for love
professional - does it for money

so which would you prefer?

HTH:nuts:

[digitalmaniac]

In most other areas it means someone who has a qualification to do the job they do-solicitor, driving instructor doctor and teacher and so on.

Photography would have been like that once but now people dont feel the nned for a qualification

[specialman]

What makes a professional photographer?
... the difference between a pro and an amateur is ‘how sharp the images are and how sharp an image needs to be before they see the image as acceptable’.

Absolute codswallop. Any image can be sharp but if it's a photograph of a dog turd, no matter how much technical know-how you apply it will still be no more than a photograph of a turd. It’s the context in which you take the image of the turd that matters and no matter how much training you have, a keen eye is the most important thing. You can’t buy that.

IMO the main difference between a pro and an amateur is that one does it for the love, the other does it for the love AND the money. The think the clue is in the title.

I think people forget that professionals are in the position they're in, mainly because they decided to go from being an amateur into professional, paid work. Any one of us can go and become a professional – if you own a camera you can go and take images – but very few will have the ability to make our photography work for us, even though many of us are very good photographers. It’s only if you get a salaried job where you can take images that being a ‘pro’ photographer is much easier; you’re getting paid regardless of the work you produce.

I think a lot of folk forget about respect. Pro photographers are ultimately the best out there, otherwise they go out of business but it’s respect more than anything, respect for them and their images, that makes them money. Amateurs are in essence, professional photographers just without the universal respect that ultimately leads to commissions.

[Tomas Whitehouse]

Definition of Professional:
Following an occupation (a persons usual or principle work or business) as a means of a livelihood or for gain.

I think people are getting confused because nowhere is there any reference to skill level or ability, so it comes down to earning money doing an occupation.

Hi Mike,

I don't think that's entirely accurate, there are plenty of references about:

google definition: professional (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&hs=DEH&defl=en&q=define:professional&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title)

wether this is held of value is another issue, often the definition, in the opening of the sentence, will loosely be described similar to: "Professional:engaged in a profession or engaging in as a profession or means of livelihood; "
and then followed by something like this:
"the professional man or woman possesses distinctive qualifications ..., or one who is a specialist in a particular field or occupation.

Personally I think Professionalism has everything to do with skill and ability (in creative industry - regardless of qualifications) in addition to earning a full time living from the given profession.

Let's say you were extremely poorly and were in dire need of an operation that, in the event of an error, may seriously reduce the chances of your survival, would you prefer:

Doctor/Surgeon A:
works full time but only recently earned the position.

or:

Doctor/Surgeon B:
working full time more than 100% longer than Doctor/Surgeon A.

I think it would be B, and I would say that conclusion is drawn due to experience and knowledge.

IMO of course, I think those two elements seperate an amateur from a pro.

Just for the record, I earn all of my income from photography, working full time and do not call myself a professional.

All the best
T.

[sportysnaps]

amateur - does it for love
professional - does it for money

so which would you prefer?

HTH:nuts:


what i currently do; take photos of the sports i love and get paid for it


A wedding tog can charge £500 and make £200 profit, another charges £5000 but makes £100 profit, who is more 'professional'?
the first is a better business man, and more professional - why did the second waste £4900 of the clients money?

[digitalmaniac]

what i currently do take photos of the spots i love and get paid for it



the first is a better business man, and more professional - why did the second waste £4900 of the clients money?

He didnt waste the clients money-he wasted his own as he charged 5000 but spent too much lol.

Its only the clients money if your quoting on a commision

[Toothie]

isn't that the same as a tradesman though?

so what's the difference between a trade and a profession?
I think the professions are those that have a serious impact on other people's lives - doctors, lawyers and so on.
but then - think of the oldest profession :shrug:
(no qualifications, no exams, precious little standards - just charge for services rendered (allegedly) )

amateur - does it for love
professional - does it for money

so which would you prefer?

HTH:nuts:

I seem to remember from a lecture about professional standards in college that professionals have to be registered with a professional body. for example the NMC is the one for nurses they regulate us.

[NorthernNikon]

the first is a better business man, and more professional - why did the second waste £4900 of the clients money?


Errr, the point I was making was that the post I was referring to implying that the more you charged the more professional you are.

Having said that, why should the second tog have 'wasted the clients money'? He could quite easily have simply been reducing his margin to make sure he got the job.