View Full Version : Doing a Wedding HELP.
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 07:39
My Grandad gave me a old box brownie camera he had tucked away in his loft for years.
I have never taken a photograph in my life, until I used the brownie last week.
I like the idea of photography so I have decided to become a wedding photographer, I put an add in the local paper and now have 5 Weddings booked. But I need help as I don't know what to do or how to even work the camera.
1 - How much shall I charge for the weddings ?, I was thinking around £700.
2 - Do I need a lens for the box brownie or will it be ok to put a lens from my Grans glasses on it ?.
3 - I here people talk about shutter speeds and F stops, what are they and where can I get them from ?.
4 - Is the box brownie digital or film ?.
5 - I cant see how you fit a flash on the brownie, but you don't need flash for weddings anyway do you ?.
Does this sound familiar ?, I see the same thing all the time on this site.
You dont believe this is true do you? :razz:
1 £700 should be fine
2 nah, grans glasses should work fine
3 whats shutterspeed and f stop?
4 whats a box brownie?
5 the sun will do that for you
im doing my first wedding tomorrow, i got a canon sureshot 90, it has its own inbuilt flash and auto mode so i can just take pics.
I've recently asked about how to do wedding photography.
So i'll take a slight personal insult to this thread.
There is nothing wrong with people asking advice, iirc thats what this site is about isn't it? Or is it only for the pros like your self?
In my case i've been asked by a friends dad to take photos after my mates wedding cause they cant afford a pro like your self to do the photos.
I'd love to be as good as half the people onhere but without asking and trying, how will anyone get there.
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 07:50
I bet they will pay £300 for a ten minute limo ride though.
If you don't know what to do you shouldnt be practicing on the most important day of a couples life or should you ?.
DiddyDave
19-06-2008, 07:52
My Grandad gave me a old box brownie camera he had tucked away in his loft for years.
I have never taken a photograph in my life, until I used the brownie last week.
I like the idea of photography so I have decided to become a wedding photographer, I put an add in the local paper and now have 5 Weddings booked. But I need help as I don't know what to do or how to even work the camera.
1 - How much shall I charge for the weddings ?, I was thinking around £700.
2 - Do I need a lens for the box brownie or will it be ok to put a lens from my Grans glasses on it ?.
3 - I here people talk about shutter speeds and F stops, what are they and where can I get them from ?.
4 - Is the box brownie digital or film ?.
5 - I cant see how you fit a flash on the brownie, but you don't need flash for weddings anyway do you ?.
Does this sound familiar ?, I see the same thing all the time on this site.
Do I detect a hint of sarcasm here Papa???
:thinking::thinking::thinking:
Just in case though...
1 - £700 is way too much, think about something more like £15 plus travel at 40p per mile, and add on £4.50 for lunch
2 - the current lens will be fine most of the time, it has a 'zoom' function in that you can run forwards (& backwards too); Granny's glasses are likely to give barrel distortion, so I'd avoid those - also, she may trip and die if you take them so you'd have to factor the funeral cost into your wedding package, which may make you uncompetitive
3 - you don't need f-stops or shutter speeds with a Box Brownie, just flick the lever on the side and remember to wind the film on too to avoid ghosting
4 - there's a hint in my answer to 3 !!!
5 - no you don't need flash for weddings even with an old Box Brownie. For interior shots though, put the camera on a pew, use the 'B' function and ask people to be absolutely still for about 15 secs at a time - you'll be fine
Can I have a copy of your advert, cos it's obviously well written
Good luck with your newfound business, and don't forget to post some shots on here too
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
DD
PS - isn't being a Wedding tog bloody easy!
RE No.5
Either velcro a candle with a piece of black card in front of it to your head and remove card as necessary or
Leave flies undone and expose as required.
N.B. option 2 may result in leaving the wedding before you get your shots.
No one should clearly make any form of advance into any kind of photography, in fact, anyone that's an amateur should now sell all of their gear and proceed to buy a compact that takes crap pictures.
PL, It's not really your call on whether someone should be covering a wedding is it? And what the bride & groom decide they want to spend their money on is also down to them, isn't it.
Do you feel threatened by these so called amateurs doing weddings? I don't understand why it's such an issue for you, if the b&g are happy with an "amateur" doing their photos, what does it matter?
If a couple come to you to "fix" their photos, just say no, sorry I can't help... Don't get such a bee in your bonnet about it... relax, you'll live longer ;)
EDIT: Never done a wedding, not sure I ever will
Xplosion
19-06-2008, 07:57
My Grandad gave me a old box brownie camera he had tucked away in his loft for years.
I have never taken a photograph in my life, until I used the brownie last week.
I like the idea of photography so I have decided to become a wedding photographer, I put an add in the local paper and now have 5 Weddings booked. But I need help as I don't know what to do or how to even work the camera.
1 - How much shall I charge for the weddings ?, I was thinking around £700.
2 - Do I need a lens for the box brownie or will it be ok to put a lens from my Grans glasses on it ?.
3 - I here people talk about shutter speeds and F stops, what are they and where can I get them from ?.
4 - Is the box brownie digital or film ?.
5 - I cant see how you fit a flash on the brownie, but you don't need flash for weddings anyway do you ?.
Does this sound familiar ?, I see the same thing all the time on this site.
Big deal.....its the people with balls that get places and you started somewhere as well, besides you can't learn without trying so cut them some slack....:bonk: besides those 5 booked weddings won't detract from your business of a gazillion turned down bookings
hypnotic
19-06-2008, 07:59
I would love to be a full time wedding photographer but dont think i could stibk my nose that far in the air.
vecsri, i do not think it was aimed at anyone in particular. what i think he is getting at, is people who dont know how to use there camera(other than auto), without the relevant kit and general knowhow on the very basics of photography. they then proceed to charge the customer for. ok, they might manage to pull off some amazing shots, but if not the customer will not be happy and brings the whole industry down. a lot of people dont realise how demanding a wedding is, especially if your faithful camera dies right before the all important formal shots.
What would you do? hold your hands up and say sorry, cameras dead? pull out your 2nd backup cam? start swearing loudly while throwing the camera on the floor? run to the local jessops and spend the £1500 for a replacement to get the shoot?
now i am not a pro, and know that sometimes spending the money on a tog isnt always possible.
I would love to be a full time wedding photographer but dont think i could stibk my nose that far in the air. :lol:
I dont think its full time wedding photographers per se.............. just a certain few! :shake:
I can see both sides of the story here though.
We do all need to start somewhere and the learners should be given a break without insulting comments.
But on the other hand, it IS someone's very special day, and I think all the learners should do a lot of assisting and learning at other weddings before taking off on their own. For the wedding couple's sake at least.
Raymond Lin
19-06-2008, 08:03
Put in another ad in the paper/local photography club/university
£500 pay for wedding photographers wanted, pocket £1000 profit all to yourself and not have to lift a finger :p
Snowball
19-06-2008, 08:04
I've partake in a few wedding photography courses in the last year or so and shot maybe 5 weddings with some really nice feedback from all...
One of the weddings I shot was in conjunction with a 'Pro' who I found disorganised and downright rubbish, that 'pro' tog was charging £1300... When the photos were shown to the Bride and Groom, they got their money back from the Pro and took mine instead..
To some people photos are NOT the be all and end all of the wedding, despite what you may think... Everyone on here like trying new genres, I for one, and I came to this forum because of the lack of hostility and friendliness of all the togs. It's posts like this that really get my back up.
:razz::razz::razz:
I can understand the pique to be honest. I wrote a post about practical photography publishing an article where the whole tone was that you can pop into Jessops, pick up a dslr, perhaps one slightly faster lens, and instantly be equipped to shoot a wedding. Unfortunately they then illustrated their item with shots taken using a 70-200mm f2.8 which we should all know by now cost a little bit more!
I wrote to the editor at PP who, although very polite, was quite OK with encouraging a new raft of would be wedding togs, all armed with a kit lens and a stepladder.
Of course I realise that, for some, the £1500 album is going to be a non starter and the market does seem to suggest that there is a place for a more informal (and a lot cheaper) way of recording the big day and that is sometimes provided by a family member.
The danger is, however, that the degradation of the quality of the end product will lead to a situation where the good pro's can no longer afford to make their living from it and so the option of actually having a quality product at all is lost to everyone.
I did read some good advice in a bridal mag that said you should budget 1/3 of your total wedding cost for a quality photographer but in the current economic climate, that seems to be something that fewer people are able to do. Perhaps some of our esteemed pros could comment on that?
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 08:09
I don,t feel threatened at all, I have plenty of work.
But I am sick of people who don't know what to do playing around at wedding photographers. If you know how to work a camera and understand photography then fine. But I see people who don't even understand the basics playing at being a wedding photographer. I get so many calls a year from couples who have had there wedding done by these kind of people, crying because there pics are crap.Then they ask me can you please work on the pictures and give them a pro look, and I have to say if you want pro looking pictures then why didn't you get a pro.
Yes... i think the word PRO can be very misleading!
It sounds like you are very good at what you do......but it could in fact be used to say that you have done many weddings..........rubbishly!!! (the word YOU here means ONE... not anyone in particular!)
I have only done 3 weddings and the b&g are always happy with their results. The first one was in a castle and they had to choose 60 large prints (inclusive) and ended up choosing 100.. then a month later wanted another 50 large in black and white.
I think the only way to go about this is to suggest that people who are starting out... and assisting etc, show their shots to friends, or on here and get a proper critique and see if they really are acceptable shots in other photographers opinions.
If not.. then they need to practise until they are.
You dont have to assist for 30 years.. but we all have to start somewhere. :thumbs:
Snowball
19-06-2008, 08:17
I DO understand PL, but I pride myself on my ability to shoot, the weddings I have done have been Friends and Family which like I said went very well.
I want to be able to ask the odd question on here as I don't know everything, it's just now I feel that I'm a bit alienated!
I look at other people for inspiration as well, such as these two togs who's pictures I could look at for hours on end:
http://www.CharlotteGeary.com
and
WeddingHack (http://www.duncankerridge.co.uk/)
Forbiddenbiker
19-06-2008, 08:18
I'm a professional motorcycle mechanic of over 25 years ...
But I could assume quite accurately that most of you consider vehicle mechanics as untrustworthy and likely rip you off.
How will you feel in the future if your photography profession (and mine in the future I hope) is considered the same way?
Just stirring . ;) :D
digitalmaniac
19-06-2008, 08:18
I think the point is here-fair play. If someone is asking a few questions to reinforce their already good knowledge of photography. Like flash advise or what lens is preferred then fine.
but if someone is asking the basics of photography then as stated clearly they shouldnt be trying wedding photography.
There is a line isnt there-between advanced amatuer and I just picked up my first dslr?
By the way whats a wedding ? lol
I bet they will pay £300 for a ten minute limo ride though.
If you don't know what to do you shouldnt be practicing on the most important day of a couples life or should you ?.
Is this thread about amatures doing weddings? or couples not paying your wages? Cause i'm quite unsure about it.
They're not bothered massivly about pictures, and they asked me. You think i shouldn't do it? Fair enough.
What would you do? hold your hands up and say sorry, cameras dead? pull out your 2nd backup cam? start swearing loudly while throwing the camera on the floor? run to the local Jessops and spend the £1500 for a replacement to get the shoot?
I'd pull my second body out.
DiddyDave
19-06-2008, 08:23
Hmmm... I took it as a joke, hence a joke in response
Didn't imagine it'd get people's backs up so much, nor throw such venom back at Papa either
Chill out everyone be :):):)
Amateurs will always be doing 'Pro' work, and a great many will be great at it too
I don't seriously think anyone considering a "Mate with a camera" is trying to save £500, £1,000 or more by avoiding a Pro's rates, more likely they haven't got that £500+ spare to start with; as such, the amateur isn't competition for most Pros anyway as the couple weren't actually in the market for a Pro
People who come to see me clearly compare my work/pricing with other Pros locally, they are not saying "We're trying to choose between you & uncle Syd"
So is TP the right place to ask such questions..? Yes, I think it is - that way the couple in question may well get a better set of prints/album than if those questions hadn't been asked, and they were never going to be my (or your) paying clients anyway
So chill :)
DD
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 08:26
I was recently told about a so called photographer that started shooting a wedding and then ten minutes into it said I cant do this and p@ss@d off home. He was a amatuer trying to earn a few ££ to pay for his gear. He left a not very happy couple but hey they got what they paid for.
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 08:28
YEO: chill out, if you know how to use your gear and have an understanding of photography then thats fine.
I was recently told about a so called photographer that started shooting a wedding and then ten minutes into it said I cant do this and p@ss@d off home. He was a amatuer trying to earn a few ££ to pay for his gear. He left a very happy couple but hey they got what they paid for.
Well thats just shocking, peopel liek that **** me off. But better he did that then put their hopes into something they really regret i suppose?
WeddingHack (http://www.duncankerridge.co.uk/)
Our own WeddingHack................arent these wonderful. :thumbs:
Let us try to take a simplistic view here.
A few people from around the U.K have posted they are doing a mates wedding.
They are doing this because there is no budget for a Professional Photographer.
This means it is not a lost job for a professional as there was no possibility of getting the job unless they did it all for nothing...not going to happen.
The B&G unless completely stupid must realise their expectation should be lower and the friend with a camera hopefully tells them this to.
The amateur is unlikely to do the mates wedding and go "Great now I'm a pro too" unless he is stupid.
So no work has been lost by the pro and 2 people might just get something that helps remember the day.
Is that not reasonable
Let us try to take a simplistic view here.
A few people from around the U.K have posted they are doing a mates wedding.
They are doing this because there is no budget for a Professional Photographer.
This means it is not a lost job for a professional as there was no possibility of getting the job unless they did it all for nothing...not going to happen.
The B&G unless completely stupid must realise their expectation should be lower and the friend with a camera hopefully tells them this to.
The amateur is unlikely to do the mates wedding and go "Great now I'm a pro too" unless he is stupid.
So no work has been lost by the pro and 2 people might just get something that helps remember the day.
Is that not reasonable
Exactly!! :thumbs:
fracster
19-06-2008, 08:39
There have been people who have bought a DSLR and lens, have no basic understanding.................sod it, I can`t be bothered repeating myself, I know where the OP is coming from.
I guess as long as they are only doing it for friends and the friends know their capabilities then thats fine.. they can keep it between themselves.
It only becomes a problem when they advertise for business etc etc. and they have no knowledge of how a dslr works, or flash or whatever.
Then, I agree!
I guess as long as they are only doing it for friends and the friends know their capabilities then thats fine.. they can keep it between themselves.
It only becomes a problem when they advertise for business etc etc. and they have no knowledge of how a dslr works, or flash or whatever.
Then, I agree!
I'd also agree with this :)
There have been people who have bought a DSLR and lens, have no basic understanding.................sod it, I can`t be bothered repeating myself, I know where the OP is coming from.
But that is a problem for the B&G and the amateur not the pro.
I also don't believe that if they do a bad job it reflects badly on pro wedding togs as everyone knows they were done by a mate.
It was not going to be a pro job in the first place.
Andybilly
19-06-2008, 08:47
PapaLazarou, can you suggest how newbies should go about becoming a Wedding Photographer.
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 08:48
If the couple are on a budget then they should spend less on things like bunting and limos and use what they save for a photographer. They dont need to spend £1000 on a pro photographer. The pictures are the only thing they will have left after the wedding, the food is gone the limo is gone and all they have left are a few shots that unkle fester took. It's these amateurs who are messing up peoples weddings and pushing up some pro prices.
Just how many of you would have done a wedding in the days of film and a lightmeter ?.
Not many I can tell you.
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 08:49
PapaLazarou, can you suggest how newbies should go about becoming a Wedding Photographer.
Learn how to use your gear and understand the basics before even thinking of it.
If the couple are on a budget then they should spend less on things like bunting and limos and use what they save for a photographer. They dont need to spend £1000 on a pro photographer. The pictures are the only thing they will have left after the wedding, the food is gone the limo is gone and all they have left are a few shots that unkle fester took. It's these amateurs who are messing up peoples weddings and pushing up some pro prices.
Just how many of you would have done a wedding in the days of film and a lightmeter ?.
Not many I can tell you.
Surely what they spend the money on is up to them?
It is their day not yours
Are you a wedding planner or a photographer?:)
Snowball
19-06-2008, 08:56
Gonna add to PL and say that along with a basic understanding of the camera, using Manual mode is helpful then shadowing a wedding tog for some weddings is invaluable.
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 08:57
Surely what they spend the money on is up to them?
It is their day not yours
Are you a wedding planner or a photographer?:)
But they are being given false hope.
If the couple are on a budget then they should spend less on things like bunting and limos and use what they save for a photographer. They dont need to spend £1000 on a pro photographer. The pictures are the only thing they will have left after the wedding, the food is gone the limo is gone and all they have left are a few shots that unkle fester took. It's these amateurs who are messing up peoples weddings and pushing up some pro prices.
Just how many of you would have done a wedding in the days of film and a lightmeter ?.
Not many I can tell you.
what you have to understand is that B&G may just have their own set of priorities and budget
while you think that having a pro tog is top of the list, they may have other ideas
I sympathise with the "got a camera for Christmas - now I can do weddings - what's an f-stop" syndrome
but some people are just asking for advice, and those that have more information/experience ought to be able to share it
if you can't/don't want to share it, then it would be polite to keep quiet
IMHO
Andybilly
19-06-2008, 08:58
Learn how to use your gear and understand the basics before even thinking of it.
Maybe newbie was the incorrect term. How would the phtographer who has a good understanding of his equipment and has done a fair amount of portraiture go about becoming a Wedding Photographer, I assume that this would be the minumum requirement for this.
But they are being given false hope.
Who says so.
With a couple of braincells between them they should no not to expect miracles.
Most people know "you get what you pay for"
But if they are happy.............................
And you have not lost out as you wouldn't have got the job.
Snowball
19-06-2008, 09:02
Just going to sit back now and watch how this progresses...
As a matter of interest, how do you all think George (GFWilliams) got on at his FIRST wedding - considering he is 15 years old???
:popcorn:
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 09:06
Just going to sit back now and watch how this progresses...
As a matter of interest, how do you all think George (GFWilliams) got on at his FIRST wedding - considering he is 15 years old???
:popcorn:
I gave some comments on the pics you will have to read them.
He will learn and hope he does good.
digitalmaniac
19-06-2008, 09:08
Well this is what i did-placed an ad on a wedding forum offering FREE photography and look at my other work. Have a booking for july in nottingham am travelling there from near london doing a whole day for free and getting a portfolio and setting up a studio at hotel and hopefully get some paid work from it.
Just going to sit back now and watch how this progresses...
As a matter of interest, how do you all think George (GFWilliams) got on at his FIRST wedding - considering he is 15 years old???
:popcorn:
Firstly, his age is irrelavent.
Secondly for a First time very impressive.
I asked for some advice on shooting a wedding not so long ago...
Same old story, mate on a very ltd budget just wanted someone to take pictures...
I understand how my camera works but thought I would ask for some tips before the big day.
Most people where great and gave some good tips but a few people had a dig at me and said "If you need to ask for advice, you shouldn't be doing it".
I was gutted.
If you don't want to give advice, don't comment, but don't have a dig at people that are trying to learn.
Forbiddenbiker
19-06-2008, 09:19
Its an incorrect assumption to think that wedding couples actually know the difference between a good professional and a bad amateur shots.
Many have no clue, so when they see professional advertisement at half the price of another they think great, bargain ..and they don't actually notice the difference in quality as being that different, because just like us before photography.... we didn't see and rate an image for the composition/exposure/qualities it possessed. HTMS.
Most people know you get what you pay for yes, but how many think digital photography is much cheaper and easier than it was in the passed.
So isn't it upto the professional photographer to keep the level of his work high and in doing so compete with othrers in his field to maintain that high level....without that appreciation the general populous would slip into 'oh that will do, its digital and in focus' what else is their to want for'
I asked for some advice on shooting a wedding not so long ago...
Same old story, mate on a very ltd budget just wanted someone to take pictures...
I understand how my camera works but thought I would ask for some tips before the big day.
Most people where great and gave some good tips but a few people had a dig at me and said "If you need to ask for advice, you shouldn't be doing it".
I was gutted.
If you don't want to give advice, don't comment, but don't have a dig at people that are trying to learn.
:agree:
Xplosion
19-06-2008, 09:20
If the couple are on a budget then they should spend less on things like bunting and limos and use what they save for a photographer. They dont need to spend £1000 on a pro photographer. The pictures are the only thing they will have left after the wedding, the food is gone the limo is gone and all they have left are a few shots that unkle fester took. It's these amateurs who are messing up peoples weddings and pushing up some pro prices.
Just how many of you would have done a wedding in the days of film and a lightmeter ?.
Not many I can tell you.
I think you give far too much importance on the pictures, its the sentiment, the meaning behind the ceremony and the memory etched in themselves that they get from a wedding, if the main reason for a wedding was to get good photo's, it might as well be all staged in a studio and done exactly as required?
Photo's have varying importance to people and according to that, they'll decide if they want a full-pro or a family friend or the neighbourhood amateur, and its thier wedding and thier choice
Chillimonster
19-06-2008, 09:27
For a lot of couples the photos are there to "Capture the moment", nothing more, nothing less, so are, as a consequence, less important to the couple that the spectical of the day itself.
As we move more and more to a fully digital, "connected" society, the printed image is also becoming less important as people want to be able to email the pictures all over the world.
There will always be a place for Pro wedding photographers, but there is also the place for the "Happy Snapper" / Friend / Amateur etc depending on budget (Even more so as budgets are being squeezed ever more tightly due the increase in costs of virtually everything)
Chris
... The pictures are the only thing they will have left after the wedding, the food is gone the limo is gone and all they have left are a few shots that unkle fester took. It's these amateurs who are messing up peoples weddings and pushing up some pro prices.
I swear people used to get married before 1839.. maybe they were all just miserable for the rest of their lives. Obviously a marriage is just an excuse to get dressed up and have some swish piccys taken. ;)
I'd really like PapaLazarou to point me to a thread on this forum where a complete clueless novice has asked for advice on shooting a wedding.
I agree it's not something you should take on if you are not up to it, but it's quite possible to be up to the job and need advice because your nervous and you've never done it before. Everyone has to start somewhere and asking questions is the only way to get answers, that's why these forums exist!
Orange Peel
19-06-2008, 09:33
I attended a friends wedding as the unofficial photographer. The Pro did all the main shots and I filled in the gaps taking mostly candids.
Everyone who has seen them so far has said how well they've come out and how maybe they didnt need a pro. I think this is due to the shots coming out better than a 'point and click' camera and because I've got a small amount of experience, nothing more.
I really enjoyed the day and communicated with the pro well. He was very helpful, even giving me tips along the way.
I'd like to do another one in the same capacity to gain experience. I usual photograph motorsport so its a totally new world for me. I asked for tips a few weeks back and got some excellent help on lighting and the use of flash etc. Shame some people think anyone wanting to expand their knowledge shouldnt bother. We all started somewhere!
by the looks of it, i think people are seeing where PL is coming from, and to the sort of people he is aiming at, and i think he is trying to protect brides and grooms and credibility in his job.
i would say this thread isnt aimed at anyone who understands what the camera is and how to use it properly. more towards "buy camera, im a pro" types. the wedding tog job is to get a visual copy of the big day, you cock it up, then they can get very upset over it, it is not like a studio where you make a mistake, you can offer to reshoot. they spent hundreds or thousands on the day and it is a once in a lifetime thing hopefully.
that said, i also understand the people who come on and ask advice, as they have to shoot friend/family wedding as the budget wont stretch(they are already using family cars for transport, the whole thing has been done on favours and tight budgets). as the one with the dslr, you become the tog for the day(and hopefully you have explained what your abilities are).
there are other things to consider though, weddings normally contain a lot of people and if you are a hobbyist(as in not usually earn money of it), what happens when accidently kicks your camera bag and smashes your 70-200 f2.8is lens, trips over smashes there arm on a table and cut themselves with glass and sue you? do you have the relevant insurance to cover all this?
in the end, as long as the b&g are aware of your ability and they are happy, good luck and hope you dont have the problem. im sure many a friendship has/will be ended when/if something goes wrong.
EdinburghGary
19-06-2008, 09:38
My Grandad gave me a old box brownie camera he had tucked away in his loft for years.
I have never taken a photograph in my life, until I used the brownie last week.
I like the idea of photography so I have decided to become a wedding photographer, I put an add in the local paper and now have 5 Weddings booked. But I need help as I don't know what to do or how to even work the camera.
1 - How much shall I charge for the weddings ?, I was thinking around £700.
2 - Do I need a lens for the box brownie or will it be ok to put a lens from my Grans glasses on it ?.
3 - I here people talk about shutter speeds and F stops, what are they and where can I get them from ?.
4 - Is the box brownie digital or film ?.
5 - I cant see how you fit a flash on the brownie, but you don't need flash for weddings anyway do you ?.
Does this sound familiar ?, I see the same thing all the time on this site.
I wish I was allowed to swear. Idiotic and unhelpful post IMO.
Edit: let be clarify my harsh comments. You are basically ripping the sh*t out of anyone who has the brass balls to stand up and say "you know what, I CAN make something of myself, and the only place to start is the bottom".
For the record, I have NO qualifications, and I have ZERO time for education. I started tinkering with PC's in 1999, and I visited my first web site in 2000, when I got scared as I thought an American Web Site would cost more to visit than a UK one.
My take home pay last year was enough to pay my mortgage off, and I only managed that as I had the brass balls to stand up and say "Hey, I will do your web site", even when I was clueless.
Give people a break, and help them. Don't make them feel like ****, it makes you look smaller than them.
Gary.
Let us try to take a simplistic view here.
A few people from around the U.K have posted they are doing a mates wedding.
They are doing this because there is no budget for a Professional Photographer.
This means it is not a lost job for a professional as there was no possibility of getting the job unless they did it all for nothing...not going to happen.
The B&G unless completely stupid must realise their expectation should be lower and the friend with a camera hopefully tells them this to.
The amateur is unlikely to do the mates wedding and go "Great now I'm a pro too" unless he is stupid.
So no work has been lost by the pro and 2 people might just get something that helps remember the day.
Is that not reasonable
The question you have to ask is WHY is there no budget for a professional photographer? If there is a budget for a professional car/driver - a professional caterer - a venue - a dress - etc etc - then why is the photographer considered the one that is dispensable? The pictures will last a lot longer than even the memories of the day let alone the 5 minute car ride or the dress costing hundreds and never to be worn again.
Ok, not everyone does have all these things at the wedding, but it is often the case that they pay for these services and then want the pics for zilch. A lot of that comes down to the fact that because Pal 'A' has a digital that looks posher than their P&S then he must be able to do it.
If you are a amateur and really can work at the required standard - and have the people skills - and the equipment (and back-up) - and feel able to take on the huge responsibility - then go ahead. But there have been a lot of people on here asking very basic questions before shooting a wedding they clearly should not have been doing. It is especially damaging when amateurs deliberately give the impression of being a pro, charging very low rates - and often producing very poor work. Easy to charge low rates if you just want to earn some money for new equipment on the side - and don't have to eat, pay rent, business expenses, phones, car, travel costs, insurance etc from the proceeds - it's not all profit.
BTW I don't shoot weddings - and have been a freelance for 37 years.
If the couple are on a budget then they should spend less on things like bunting and limos and use what they save for a photographer. They dont need to spend £1000 on a pro photographer. The pictures are the only thing they will have left after the wedding, the food is gone the limo is gone and all they have left are a few shots that unkle fester took. It's these amateurs who are messing up peoples weddings and pushing up some pro prices.
Just how many of you would have done a wedding in the days of film and a lightmeter ?.
Not many I can tell you.
Wedding costs seem to be totally insane to me now, enough to put down a decent deposit on a house. If people are limited in their budget then it's up to them how they spend that budget, they may well feel that they'd rather make sure their friends and family get well fed and remember an enjoyable day and its all captured on the point and shoots of a few friends than that a great pro gets amazing photos of people looking grumpy and miserable eating dried up cheese sandwiches at a buffet.
Oh, and I have various friend who have got married in hired or second hand dresses or ones made by friends and family and been driven about in cars owned or hired and driven by family. Pro photographers are certainly not the only pro to get cut when budgets are tight.
If you don't wish to give away your pro secrets to amateurs doing a favour for a friend, by all means don't comment on their threads asking for help but this thread seems a little unnecessary in my opinion.
The problem is far wider ranging than just weddings sadly.
Ever since digital came along there has been a steady decline in the industry both financially and quality.
The wedding business is seen as fair game to some amateurs who seem to operate on a take hundreds of pics and something will work policy.
Ive seen many of these weddings around the net and on this site and yes they look "ok" but in reality they are no better than what uncle fred could have done.
Digital photography has allowed people to take better photographs then ever before without any real knowledge ........... BUT !
Only an experienced professional will give those pics that extra little touch that seperate them from the rest,
Where the amateur really falls down at a wedding is when the light goes bad or it rains or the groups are hard to manage etc etc etc and as Ive said thats when the experience comes into play, and things do go wrong and you have to know how to fix it and fix it fast !
We will never stop the amateurs having a go and trying to do the job but remember this, there is a reason pro's have spent years training and assisting.
They will continue to knock out a very average set of pics which then get printed at an amateur lab and presented in a 2 bob album.
Am I threatened by that ??
Nope not at all
What I am upset by is the public perception of my industry when it goes wrong .
By all means get into the industry but please get training , go and assist and learn the trade there is a damm sight more to it than buying a camera from jessops and taking 100's of snaps.
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 09:42
Fletch5
Well said
...there are other things to consider though, weddings normally contain a lot of people and if you are a hobbyist(as in not usually earn money of it), what happens when accidently kicks your camera bag and smashes your 70-200 f2.8is lens, trips over smashes there arm on a table and cut themselves with glass and sue you? do you have the relevant insurance to cover all this?...
That shouldn't matter really. Although I'm sure it would be a problem in a lot of cases. If it does though, then every woman who ever puts her handbag down should take out public liability insurance for fear of some clumsy ambulance chaser.
Jamie (hates the world).
That shouldn't matter really. Although I'm sure it would be a problem in a lot of cases. If it does though, then every woman who ever puts her handbag down should take out public liability insurance for fear of some clumsy ambulance chaser.
Jamie (hates the world).
i appreciate that, but a lot take money for the shoot, thus making you a paid member, thus distinguishing you from any personal insurance policies etc..
i was under the impression as a business(which i assume would cover anyone getting paid)you have to by law have public liability insurance to cover these things.
and to clarify, i am no pro.
EdinburghGary
19-06-2008, 09:49
by the looks of it, i think people are seeing where PL is coming from, and to the sort of people he is aiming at, and i think he is trying to protect brides and grooms and credibility in his job.
He can do that without trying to deliberately upset and in my opinion publicly humiliate one or two individuals who might rightly or wrongly be trying to start as wedding togs.
Tell them straight, and keep it real. Do not use some crappy sarcastic post to show how much of an "elite" you need to be.
I thought TPF was a friendly place, for useful advice, hints and tips?
As far as I can see, his post was designed to bully and ridicule a few brave forum members.
Elitist to say the least.
Gary.
EdinburghGary
19-06-2008, 09:50
I've recently asked about how to do wedding photography.
So i'll take a slight personal insult to this thread.
There is nothing wrong with people asking advice, iirc thats what this site is about isn't it? Or is it only for the pros like your self?
Thankfully not, and for every "I'm so much better than you" member, there are hundreds of others who WILL offer help and advice. Well done to them.
I suspected something with the "Ooooh look at my f1.2 50mm".
Now I know ;)
Gary.
EdinburghGary
19-06-2008, 09:52
Do you feel threatened by these so called amateurs doing weddings?
Nail on head ;)
EDIT: Never done a wedding, not sure I ever will
Exactly why this thread sucks so badly.
Gary.
i appreciate that, but a lot take money for the shoot, thus making you a paid member, thus distinguishing you from any personal insurance policies etc..
i was under the impression as a business(which i assume would cover anyone getting paid)you have to by law have public liability insurance to cover these things.
and to clarify, i am no pro.
Yea if you're getting paid then the insurance should be there. But if you're there as a mate with a camera, you shouldn't need it anymore than any of the other guests there with their P&S (or 400D and 18-55 as everyone has these days).
The question you have to ask is WHY is there no budget for a professional photographer? If there is a budget for a professional car/driver - a professional caterer - a venue - a dress - etc etc - then why is the photographer considered the one that is dispensable? The pictures will last a lot longer than even the memories of the day let alone the 5 minute car ride or the dress costing hundreds
Simple really The Bride and Groom have decided where they do wish to spend and where they don't.
Your post is the same as saying You can't get married unless you guarantee a booking with a professional photographer.
EdinburghGary
19-06-2008, 09:54
We do all need to start somewhere and the learners should be given a break without insulting comments.
I wonder what the next person thinking of doing a wedding will feel if they read this thread? :) The way which he made his complaint was foolish and unfair, and smacks of arrogance, he is almost saying "You will never be able to do it". What a bully boy.
Gary.
Ok - if you want to shoot weddings great. Amateurs with NO experience should not shoot weddings PERIOD. Yes, you have to start somewhere - but you do not start by using a real wedding as a test ground for your ability. You start by assisting another photographer - for lots and lots of weddings - in all sorts of venues - in all sorts of weather conditions - and you learn how it's done - there is a LOT more to it than knowing how to use a DSLR. After maybe a couple of years of that you go it alone. Another way - if it's a friends wedding is to shoot candids - along side the pro - as someone mentioned in this thread - you can learn a lot from that as well - without the total responsibility of handling the entire job. If you are asked - then think long and hard - for the sake of the B&G - before saying yes.
I'm not getting at anyone - I hope this is helpful and sensible advice!
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 09:55
We don't mind helping but don't mess with peoples big day if you don't know what to do.
Asking things like do I need flash for a wedding or any other simple thing, if you dont know what to do don't do it.
If I was getting married and picked up on some of the attitudes being shown here I would consider that highly unprofessional and go somewhere else.
PL do you need to use bold text in some posts to get your point over, some might say that shows insecurity as well?
EdinburghGary
19-06-2008, 09:56
I don,t feel threatened at all, I have plenty of work.
But I am sick of people who don't know what to do playing around at wedding photographers.
Why are you even here then? If you are sick of noobs and novices wanting advice, you know how to deal with it.
Bullying them is just stupid. I am a novice, and I would LOVE to do a wedding in your neck of the woods. In fact, watch this space.
Gary.
StewartR
19-06-2008, 09:57
My Grandad gave me a old box brownie camera he had tucked away in his loft for years.
I have never taken a photograph in my life, until I used the brownie last week.
I like the idea of photography so I have decided to become a wedding photographer, I put an add in the local paper and now have 5 Weddings booked. But I need help as I don't know what to do or how to even work the camera.
1 - How much shall I charge for the weddings ?, I was thinking around £700.
2 - Do I need a lens for the box brownie or will it be ok to put a lens from my Grans glasses on it ?.
3 - I here people talk about shutter speeds and F stops, what are they and where can I get them from ?.
4 - Is the box brownie digital or film ?.
5 - I cant see how you fit a flash on the brownie, but you don't need flash for weddings anyway do you ?.
Does this sound familiar ?, I see the same thing all the time on this site.
I think this is one of the most gratuitously offensive things I've ever seen on TP.
PL, if you want to assume an air of smug elitism and tell people how to run their lives, and what they should or shouldn't spend their money on, then I'm sure there are other forums which will cater to you.
He can do that without trying to deliberately upset and in my opinion publicly humiliate one or two individuals who might rightly or wrongly be trying to start as wedding togs.
Tell them straight, and keep it real. Do not use some crappy sarcastic post to show how much of an "elite" you need to be.
I thought TPF was a friendly place, for useful advice, hints and tips?
As far as I can see, his post was designed to bully and ridicule a few brave forum members.
Elitist to say the least.
Gary.
i appreciate where your coming from, and words on forums can come over stronger than intended.
i have to agree that some of the posts seem harsh in how they are worded, but i think a fair few may be written in anger? i have also noticed, as an example gfwilliams thread, he started off with a harsh comment, perhaps of anger or worded harshly to make him think, but he does offer a lot of good advicefurther on.
the forum posts are relatively short in description, if you describe that you have put effort into figuring it out yourself and show you have understanding of the camera then PL offers good advice, but a lot dont say much about any ideas they have or any previous skills they have in that area. and with only 3 posts behind them, i tend to assume little to no experience until shown otherwise. perhaps the wrong way round, but i would rather over simplify to a pro than over complicate for a beginner.
We don't mind helping but don't mess with peoples big day if you don't know what to do.
Asking things like do I need flash for a wedding or any other simple thing, if you dont know what to do don't do it.
Some people might never have used a flash before and are considering buying one to try to make the best of their efforts on the day.
Do they need a put down because of that...no.
As I've already said it is not a job you have lost, so really not your problem.
I think this is one of the most gratuitously offensive things I've ever seen on TP.
PL, if you want to assume an air of smug elitism and tell people how to run their lives, and what they should or shouldn't spend their money on, then I'm sure there are other forums which will cater to you.
That's why I suggested maybe he should become a wedding planner.
What's all this about needing a flash to do a wedding? Not good enough to do without it? Or too lazy to do without it?
What's all this about needing a flash to do a wedding? Not good enough to do without it? Or too lazy to do without it?
I dont think anyone said you NEED at flash to do a wedding... there are times like bright sunshine where a bit of fill in is a great idea.
But apparently people who are considering it... are not allowed to do so as they arent good enough to ask for advice :shrug:
What's all this about needing a flash to do a wedding? Not good enough to do without it? Or too lazy to do without it?
i would use the flash to fill in the foreground and lighten the shadows in outdoor portraits, you would not have them looking into the sun as they will all be squinting.
EdinburghGary
19-06-2008, 10:04
i appreciate where your coming from, and words on forums can come over stronger than intended.
I agree with a lot of what he is complaining about. I totally and whole heartidly disagree with his method of complaining.
Creating a thread to DELIBERATELY slag off a few members is cruel. be honest and straight to the point if you MUST make them feel like sh*t. Why get the whole world to join in? It's playground bullying, and it sucks to see it here of all places.
Gary.
PS - ignore my spelling, I never did school ;)
By all means get into the industry but please get training , go and assist and learn the trade there is a damm sight more to it than buying a camera from jessops and taking 100's of snaps.
Which is precicely why I wrote to the editor of practical photography and I'm not even a wedding tog! (Although I do assist for a very good pro)
On the subject of assisting, it really is a good way to learn. I have no intention of doing it full time so I am not a threat to his business. What it does offer though is a chance for me to learn skills and in return, he has an extra pair of hands and eyes on the day. So hopefully I add something to his business. It's a good arrangement and yes it is hard work for me for no financial renumeration but you get out of it what you put in.
I agree with a lot of what he is complaining about. I totally and whole heartidly disagree with his method of complaining.
Creating a thread to DELIBERATELY slag off a few members is cruel. be honest and straight to the point if you MUST make them feel like sh*t. Why get the whole world to join in? It's playground bullying, and it sucks to see it here of all places.
Gary.
PS - ignore my spelling, I never did school ;)
:agree:
I dont think anyone said you NEED at flash to do a wedding... :
I think PL eluded to it in his first post, and again later.
i would use the flash to fill in the foreground and lighten the shadows in outdoor portraits, you would not have them looking into the sun as they will all be squinting.
Of course, but there are other ways of dealing with this. If we all wanted to assume PL's high n whatever attitude, I'm sure there are plenty of togs out there who could point their noses to the vertical and say he shouldn't be using flash. Rather one should master the available light.
What ever happened to CJnicolai?
DiddyDave
19-06-2008, 10:10
Is there a record for the fastest growing thread on TP ???
Or even the one with the most angry posts on it ???
:thinking::thinking::thinking:
DD
I'm not angry just disappointed with attitudes and don't like posts that deliberately set out to belittle others.
It is not necessary.
DiddyDave
19-06-2008, 10:13
Errrrrr
(Scared now :shake:)
I use flash, reflectors and ambient light
Does that make for me to be hung, drawn & quartered? :D
DD
PS trying to inject a little calm here !!!
Is there a record for the fastest growing thread on TP ???
Or even the one with the most angry posts on it ???
:thinking::thinking::thinking:
DD
Not sure, I was thinking of nominating PL's post #34 for most quoted though.. :rules:
Is there a record for the fastest growing thread on TP ???
Or even the one with the most angry posts on it ???
:thinking::thinking::thinking:
DD
:lol::lol:
I don't know, Betty got pretty upset when someone asked about freezing bugs...
hmm, frozen bugs:popcorn:
ewwwww! :gag:
How about freezing brides then, Stop the blighters moving about so much!
DiddyDave
19-06-2008, 10:17
I'm not angry just disappointed with attitudes and don't like posts that deliberately set out to belittle others.
It is not necessary.
:agree:
Though as my first post showed I didn't see it that way, and as (hopefully) my 2nd showed - anyone doing a mates wedding is not a competitor of a Pro IMHO - so yes, I'm happy to help
I've not seen a TPer say "Bought my first camera & kit lens, now I'm a Pro", but if I had, I'd rather ignore them bth
DD
Hmmm lets see what I have here to add to the discussion.
StewartR
19-06-2008, 10:17
I agree with a lot of what he is complaining about. I totally and whole heartidly disagree with his method of complaining.
Creating a thread to DELIBERATELY slag off a few members is cruel. be honest and straight to the point if you MUST make them feel like sh*t. Why get the whole world to join in? It's playground bullying, and it sucks to see it here of all places.
Gary.
PS - ignore my spelling, I never did school ;):agree:
Well said Gary.
Hmmm lets see what I have here to add to the discussion.
Waits with bated breath!!!!!
Hmm this is close, it'll have to do for now.
http://marcelbooth.co.uk/m/gfx/web/panda_riffraff.jpg
I'd also like to say. If someone feels strongly about something, that's fine, but for the love of god be polite about it. Anything less just makes them look like a tit who likes to rant.
I'll reply in more depth later.
DiddyDave
19-06-2008, 10:21
Have you got a shot of a 'Ranting Tit' then Marcel?
Love to see that one
DD
Im desperately looking through my archives to find one lol
EdinburghGary
19-06-2008, 10:22
Im desperately looking through my archives to find one lol
So we should see it next week then? :)
Marcels Archives, 100 TB and counting...
INCOMING. The man with wisdom is approaching.
Everyone stand up....and shush!
Da da da dee da da daaaaaaaaa!
So we should see it next week then? :)
Marcels Archives, 100 TB and counting...
is that all
Im desperately looking through my archives to find one lol
don't image search google with that term though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This thread has been reported as gratuitously offensive, and in all honesty - I think it is. My first instinct was to close it, but as this topic seems to come up on a regular basis, perhaps it's time to clear the air on a few things.
Whether the die hard pros like it or not, digital photography has made wedding photography a far less daunting prospect than it it used to be. The comforter blanket of that preview screen and the ability to shoot a ridiculous amount of shots is tremendous even for a hardened pro. We can moan till the cows come home that you shouldn't have to rely on rescuing often dodgy shots in processing, but the fact is you often can. Not many people would relish taking that first wedding with a roll or two of 35mm film,, but they don't have to and the pros need to wake uip and smell the coffee ... the game has changed out of all recognition. I think most of the pros woke up a long time ago though Papa. ;)
INCOMING. The man with wisdom is approaching.
Everyone stand up....and shush!
Da da da dee da da daaaaaaaaa!
And?????
Edit were you referring to the post above ?
EdinburghGary
19-06-2008, 10:29
And?????
Doh...you missed it :)
CT, well said.
i am curious to how many complaints this thread actually got to be fair
This thread has been reported as gratuitously offensive, and in all honesty - I think it is. My first instinct was to close it, but as this topic seems to come up on a regular basis, perhaps it's time to clear the air on a few things.
Whether the die hard pros like it or not, digital photography has made wedding photography a far less daunting prospect than it it used to be. The comforter blanket of that preview screen and the ability to shoot a ridiculous amount of shots is tremendous even for a hardened pro. We can moan till the cows come home that you shouldn't have to rely on rescuing often dodgy shots in processing, but the fact is you often can. Not many people would relish taking that first wedding with a roll or two of 35mm film,, but they don't have to and the pros need to wake uip and smell the coffee ... the game has changed out of all recognition. I think most of the pros woke up a long time ago though Papa. ;)
Must be something wrong with me ........
I dont shoot 100's of shots
I dont spend hours post processing
I dont spend half the wedding peering at a little screen
I dont belive the "game" has changed beyond recognition
I just think there is more choice
A client can now choose someone that knows what they are doing without all the heavy reliance on digital technology ...ie a person who has experience , technique and above all an eye for a picture ...none of which can be bought at jessops.
Or of course they can go for someone that has not bothered to learn the trade and thinks a few words on a forum will get them out of trouble ....
i am curious to how many complaints this thread actually got to be fair
enough to warrant admin intervention. CT has hit the nail on the head i think, i have nothing more to add to what hes put apart from :plusone:
Or of course they can go for someone that has not bothered to learn the trade and thinks a few words on a forum will get them out of trouble ....
caveat empor.
You pays your money, you takes your choice. Customers need to look at Portfolios, meet the tog, and decide that way.
Internet forums are what they are, the rise of cheap, digital, cameras HAS changed the game, of that there is no doubt, the pro togs have to show that they are the ones to choose over the 'learner newbies', im sure belittling those who buy a DSLR and jump in with both feet isnt the way to do, selling yourself to the customer is.
These threads always seem to make me chuckle and seethe in equal measures.
The digital world has turned my industry and our hobby on it's head and then over and over again. The market I work in, not weddings btw, has changed as much as the equipment I use to serve it and in some ways the work is harder to getand there is no shortage of snappers crying into their beer about how their living has been eeked away by the unworthy.
My response is always the same...... Tough!
Just get on with it, if you're good enough then the work is still out there. It may take less time now and hence be worth less but that's the way it is. In the olden days of film, jobs took an eternity with polaroids to shoot and waiting on film biked over to the lab. All that time was charged and we raked in the cash. Now, I shoot, the client looks at the laptop, he/she tells me I'm great ;) and we move on.... job done and I issue a much smaller invoice than I would in the days of the big wait.
This is just too much for some snappers. Whether it's the commercial bod like me, the wedding hack like PL or the freelancer shooting for stock.
It's odd that none of them stop to think about the people that used to process their great wads of film, or work over an enlarger to make those beautiful prints....... they have no job left at all and no-one moans for them.
The world has changed. Smile and move with it or shut the f.......ummm, door on the way out. :D
GarynLea
19-06-2008, 10:50
SO from a noobs point of view ...
I dont intend to shoot weedings but if I did, where do I start?
I dont know any pro togs in my area that I can shadow. Yes, I can learn the techniques from books, I can practise in a studio or on family doing portraits but a wedding is a totally different ball-game.
To me, the best resource was here. Listening to the helpful tips and advice offered, looking at the shots that you guys have taken and thinking about how I could achieve similar. I say 'was' because after reading this thread, I'd now be looking elsewhere for fear of upsetting someone.
Gary
and thinks a few words on a forum will get them out of trouble ....
Are you trying to top the bill for having the most offensive post in this tread??
It's not about "a few words getting you out of trouble", for me it has been, and still about getting advice from friends that know a bit more than you.
Don't lock it Admins, sticky it!
This has been very enlightening and may cut down on similar threads being posted! :thumbs:
Dangleman
19-06-2008, 10:52
Don't lock it admins - this forum is great, but normally everyone is so polite it can get a tad dull ;) Nice to see some passion!
right then - is everyone happy again? :)
WeddingHack
19-06-2008, 10:53
Ok - if you want to shoot weddings great. Amateurs with NO experience should not shoot weddings PERIOD. Yes, you have to start somewhere - but you do not start by using a real wedding as a test ground for your ability. You start by assisting another photographer - for lots and lots of weddings - in all sorts of venues - in all sorts of weather conditions - and you learn how it's done - there is a LOT more to it than knowing how to use a DSLR. After maybe a couple of years of that you go it alone. Another way - if it's a friends wedding is to shoot candids - along side the pro - as someone mentioned in this thread - you can learn a lot from that as well - without the total responsibility of handling the entire job. If you are asked - then think long and hard - for the sake of the B&G - before saying yes.
I'm not getting at anyone - I hope this is helpful and sensible advice!
The risk-averse may wish to look away now ...
I shot my first wedding on the day after I left my previous non-photogrphy related job. It was for a friend of a friend - they had not budgeted for a photographer and my friend let them know my situation (redundancy) and asked if I could shoot for them. I was working at cost - the couple paid for the cost of the prints, that's all.
Prior to this I was a keen amatuer with two years photography experience, but rarely shot people and had never owned a flash. In the week before the wedding I bought a 1DMKii, 16-35, 70-200 & 580ex - my 10D wasn't going to cut it in weddings. I had 1 days experience with the new kit before going to the wedding.
To be perfectly honest I didn't have a clue what I was doing and made it up as I went along. The couple were very happy the results and I used this wedding as a portfolio to get four other weddings over the next three months (Nov-Jan) - all again at cost - my aim was to build a portfolio and my experience before taking on paid jobs the next year. The clients were all very well aware of my level of experience, and all were pleased with the results.
In the next year I shot 25 paid weddings, turned over £30K with a profit of approximately £0 - like any first year business there is a lot of expense to soak up - don't think wedding photography is a get rich quick option. I'm now in my fourth season and doing well financially.
What I'm saying is that you can jump in to this game with nothing and make a success of it - but you do have to have supreme confidence in your abilities, be very comfortable with people, and manage client expectations well. That's to say nothing of the business and marketing skills you need. In my view shooting with another pro for years is a waste of time and potential earnings if you have the balls to do it alone. All you are going to learn is how to shoot like them. I've always shot pretty much what I please and then found clients that were drawn to that.
As for the view that couples should make photography a higher priority and cut costs elsewhere to fund it, that's just nonsense - everyone has their own priorities in life, for some photography doesn't score that highly. Last year I shot two weddings in succession - one was higher end, budget probably in excess £50K - they booked my smallest package, the next weekend my fee was greater than the cost of their venue & food for 60 combined - different strokes for different folks.
If you are interested in wedding photography as a profession, it's the most rewarding job I've ever had, I get to go to a party every weekend, and I'm being paid to do what I love the most - learning to take better photos (yes I still learn on the job - shock horror). The flip side I work long hours and miss out on my friends social life at the weekends. You need to enjoy stress, enjoy people and be able to turn out the goods in any situation. It aint easy, but the good things in life never are.
Duncan
Graham_P_Clarke
19-06-2008, 10:53
I think that this has got out of hand.
But I would like to add one point, Many people are saying the only thing from a wedding is the photos. When I got married 23years ago I could not afford a photographer or car or much at all, infact the most expensive part of my wedding was the registrars fees!!!. I would have loved to have some pictures from the day but I got the most important thing that day my WIFE!!.
Snowball
19-06-2008, 10:54
These threads always seem to make me chuckle and seethe in equal measures.
The digital world has turned my industry and our hobby on it's head and then over and over again. The market I work in, not weddings btw, has changed as much as the equipment I use to serve it and in some ways the work is harder to getand there is no shortage of snappers crying into their beer about how their living has been eeked away by the unworthy.
My response is always the same...... Tough!
Just get on with it, if you're good enough then the work is still out there. It may take less time now and hence be worth less but that's the way it is. In the olden days of film, jobs took an eternity with polaroids to shoot and waiting on film biked over to the lab. All that time was charged and we raked in the cash. Now, I shoot, the client looks at the laptop, he/she tells me I'm great ;) and we move on.... job done and I issue a much smaller invoice than I would in the days of the big wait.
This is just too much for some snappers. Whether it's the commercial bod like me, the wedding hack like PL or the freelancer shooting for stock.
It's odd that none of them stop to think about the people that used to process their great wads of film, or work over an enlarger to make those beautiful prints....... they have no job left at all and no-one moans for them.
The world has changed. Smile and move with it or shut the f.......ummm, door on the way out. :D
:agree:
I work in an industry where we are now being overrun by people coming out of school/university with a lot of skills and my industry (System Design) is now saturated with people, not all of them with the necessary skills, just a basic understanding... I can't post in forums to tell them to stop as it pushes my wages down, just make myself stand out from the crowd!
I keep refering to Duncan Kerridge and Charlotte Geary, but look at their work and you will see that they will stand the test of time as they have produced a style of their own which (in my eyes) is amazing!!! :thumbs:
its not going anywhere. As long as people stay civil and polite it will all be fine...
Snowball
19-06-2008, 10:55
And here is said 'Duncan Kerridge'...
Snowball
19-06-2008, 10:55
But I would like to add one point, Many people are saying the only thing from a wedding is the photos. When I got married 23years ago I could not afford a photographer or car or much at all, infact the most expensive part of my wedding was the registrars fees!!!. I would have loved to have some pictures from the day but I got the most important thing that day my WIFE!!.
:clap:
Must be something wrong with me ........
I dont shoot 100's of shots
I dont spend hours post processing
I dont spend half the wedding peering at a little screen
I dont belive the "game" has changed beyond recognition
I just think there is more choice
A client can now choose someone that knows what they are doing without all the heavy reliance on digital technology ...ie a person who has experience , technique and above all an eye for a picture ...none of which can be bought at jessops.
Or of course they can go for someone that has not bothered to learn the trade and thinks a few words on a forum will get them out of trouble ....
but the eye for a picture can be faked to a degree.
now, i realise you dont take 100s of shots, but the less seasoned pro/amateur can just click off a couple of thousand, and laws of averages should, out of 2000, get 100 that are ok(unless they messed the settings up or equipment failure) out of those 100 there would be some nice shots that would look professional.
now they may have missed the right exposure, so they spend alot more time than you editing the shots (brightening, cloning out dodgy bits, blurring the bg)
they then take to the couple, a portfolio of 100 images or so that look nice, everyone is in focus, they pic there shots and get there album, which they are happy with.
now your workflow and ability means you took less shots than the amateur, and you spent less time editing, and probably better shots, but the amateur has managed to produce some good quality shots for his website and b&g and the only extra thing has been more time.
The clients were all very well aware of my level of experience
I got the most important thing that day my WIFE!!.
That's it guys, the whole deal summed up in two sentences. We can add tuppences till they stack up to the moon but it's not going to get closer to the heart of the matter. :)
I thought the first post was funny! There are some serious points to be made though, my sister hired a very well thought of professional tog for her wedding and the photos were stunning! However on the day the togs were absolutly awful at getting the groups togther. Everyone just ignored their quiet shouts! It took me and another well seasoned secondary school teacher and everyone was soon rounded up! The togs were about to take major shots with only half of the people there!
Its not just the skill behind the camera you have to be able to deal with large groups of 'merry' people too!
I wish I had the photography skill and then I'd be sorted! Wedding guests are still easier than year 11's
I think Duncans wedding photos are fantastic. He wasn't about when I got married. Its almost worth getting divorced and remarrying her :)
Just to redress the balance, as I can to some extent see the other point of view - when we see people posting asking for basic technical advice virtually on the eve of the big day and in the same breath asking what is the going rate for the job - even being urged by some to charge the pro rate on the basis that if they're good enough to do the job they should charge the going rate. Totally unrealistic..it hasn't even been established if you can do the job yet, and I can understand how that would rankle with many pros.
On that note I'm going shopping, there are just some days when I don't need to be around this forum and this is one of 'em.
Are you trying to top the bill for having the most offensive post in this tread??
It's not about "a few words getting you out of trouble", for me it has been, and still about getting advice from friends that know a bit more than you.
Not at all offensive
Its completely true just look around and you will see the proof so how can it be offensive?
Who is a Wedding "God" in my eyes!
I abolutely adore Duncan's photography and to cap it all, everyone says he's a blooming nice bloke too.
I've read a fair few of your posts Duncan and all I can add to my previous crawling is that we are blessed to have you here among us!
Right, that's enough of that. I'll get back to normal now :)
ivortripod
19-06-2008, 11:05
And here is said 'Duncan Kerridge'...
If this topics got to continue:
1]at least talk sense :bonk:
2] Use the posters forum name, as opposed to their real name [which most readers won't recognise]
Cheers :thumbs:
I agree. ^^^
Ive just had a good old look and they truly are lovely. :thumbs:
If this topics got to continue at least talk sense :bonk:
He is, people are just quick at posting in this thread, so some popped up between his and WeddingHack's (Mr Kerridge's) post.
starman,
Show me a thread where a TP member is asking for, as you put it "a few words getting you out of trouble" and I will show you 100 threads with people that are just after a few tips that they may not have thought of.
It offended me.
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 11:13
God why are so many of you getting upset ?.
If you know about photography and know more then just P MODE then fine.
But if you dont know anything you shouldnt be doing weddings should you.
I dont know how to fit a new gas fire but I wouldnt try and fit my Grans new one just because I know how to light one.
I wanted to make the post funny but it's got a few peoples backs up I wonder why.
If you know about photography and know more then just P MODE then fine.
.
I have actually heard of a fair few "pro" togs resorting to P on the day. I guess as long as they know how their camera works inside and out... it doesnt matter as long as the results are good.
Possibly because it wasn't funny just rude and dare I say unprofessional.
I dont know how to fit a new gas fire but I wouldnt try and fit my Grans new one just because I know how to light one.
But some would
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 11:16
I have actually heard of a fair few "pro" togs resorting to P on the day. I guess as long as they know how their camera works inside and out... it doesnt matter as long as the results are good.
Now thats a joke.
starman,
Show me a thread where a TP member is asking for, as you put it "a few words getting you out of trouble" and I will show you 100 threads with people that are just after a few tips that they may not have thought of.
It offended me.
LMAO !
If that offended you my friend you really ought to stay out of forums
Oh and as you are chucking around " my friends know more than you "
EDITED : Don't be so bloody rude
Offended ?
If this topics got to continue at least talk sense :bonk:
It did make sense!
Maybe cause its made us realise we're all crap compared to you, and attempting something is bad unless you'e a pro.
Unless you're born with an instant ability to photo a wedding, leave it to you?
;)
Now thats a joke.
Wasnt meant to be, PL. A friend of mine has been assisting togs for a couple of years now and said quite a lot are using P mode.
Seems amazing doesnt it. :shrug:
Papalazarou,
People are upset (me included) because your post wasn't funny, it was rude and offensive and not something I ever thought I would see on TP.
namllihs
19-06-2008, 11:19
Interesting reading.
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t260841-getting-sued-over-wedding-pictures.html
digitalmaniac
19-06-2008, 11:20
Why would anyone want to use p mode? Ap possibly. sp possibly-but p.
But then according to some pros ive come across in my time-telling me they dont even meter a scene at all and just grab a s speed from the air. Well then if they can do that and get it right every time-they are not togs, but magicians.
Starman - not a great first impression...
attempting something is bad unless you'e a pro.
;)
Calm down a bit folks, it was the "attempting" bit that has (I hope I'm right) got Papa a bit sarcastic in his post.
A wedding is not really the place to do "attempting" unless, as has been previously stated the B&G are Ok with their tog doing that. The communication needs to be crystal clear on that or the "attemptee" could be letting them down, big style. Please note the use of the word could, the potential in there for it all to go horribly wrong and that is a risk than needs managing.
Duncan is here to prove that it CAN be done too.
The OP post was not rude and offensive, just his view of things. Some agree, some don't, such is the nature of things.
Why would anyone want to use p mode? Ap possibly. sp possibly-but p.
But then according to some pros ive come across in my time-telling me they dont even meter a scene at all and just grab a s speed from the air. Well then if they can do that and get it right every time-they are not togs, but magicians.
I don't but simplicity and laziness come to mind. Of course a professional in any trade anywhere would never resort to either of those.
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 11:24
It's so hard to get through to some people.
If you know what your doing fine, go and do a wedding.
If you dont have a clue then what are you doing shooting a wedding ?.
And time and time again people come on this forum who dont know the basics and think it's fine to do a wedding. It's not just weddings but any kind of photography work, it's only weddings that we mention as you only get one shot at it.
Chillimonster
19-06-2008, 11:24
Now thats a joke.
So to be "Professional" you need to stay out of [P] mode :shrug:
I thought it was results that counted :thinking:
Starman - not a great first impression...
You should see my one of Jimmy Saville
:lol:
LMAO !
Oh and as you are chucking around " my friends know more than you "
Edited quote too
Offended ?
I can only say sorry about the post you have quoted, it should have read "friends that know more than me"
To clear up that issue, I was talking about some of the friends I have made on TP.
As for my avatar image, I wasn't trying to show a great image of me, it was showing a very drunk image of me....
Offended?? No.....
Edited this too
WeddingHack
19-06-2008, 11:25
I know several pros that shoot on P through choice the whole day, and turn out good stuff with it. It's not because they don't understand how to use their camera, it's because they understand very well how the camera operates in P mode and fit their shooting around that.
At a Joe Buissink seminar (american celeb photographer) he claimed to work on P for most of the day. His minimum fee is $10,000.
ewwwww! :gag:
How about freezing brides then, Stop the blighters moving about so much!Hmm :thinking:
1 How long would it take to freeze one
2 If frozen before the ceremony would the marriage be legally binding
3 If frozen after the ceremony would it be down to the tog to arrange the freezing or would a specialist be required
4 Would a separate cost need adding to the budget
On a more serious note (and let me say I am allergic to weddings and do not want to take pictures of either weddings or people!!)
Hypothetically if I were to get dragged kicking and screaming to a wedding I would not want to ask on open forum about taking my camera and getting some pictures - yes I would pm some people and ask advice, but after reading this I would be very careful. For example I am someone who has not got a flash as I do not need one for my main interest so how do I come on here and say I am going to xyz wedding and am taking some pictures what sort of flash would I need and how would I use it after reading this thread :(
With costs going ever higher people are going to cut back on a lot of things, weddings included so its quite likely that less people will rely on professional photographers and more on friends with dslr's or decent p&s cameras. Of all the people I know who are married only one has a wedding picture out on display, the others just have them tucked away somewhere so I think times are changing a lot and everyone photographers included need to adapt to the way people are doing things. Some people do get married on a shoestring, they use a "posh" car belonging to and driven by a friend who will get it cleaned polished and ribboned up for them, a different friend will make the cake, and yet another may do the brides hair/nails etc so what would to a looker on be an extravagent wedding may well be a lot of people doing everything they can to make the day a great one, and although thr car/cake/makeup may to a professional be not as technically good as the pro would have done to the bride and groom it will mean a lan incredible amount more because of the huge effort and thought that friends have made on their behalf.
I do agree that if someone wants to take up wedding photography seriously they should learn properly before going out and charging people, but if photos are way down on the list of priorities and the couple want a friend to do some then thats their choice, provided of course the person taking the pics is honest about their ability or lack of. Equally if someone admits that they lack knowledge don't make them feel worse about themselves than they already do if they ask questions.
I can only say sorry about the post you have quoted, it should have read "friends that know more than me"
To clear up that issue, I was talking about some of the friends I have made on TP.
As for my avatar image, I wasn't trying to show a great image of me, it was showing a very drunk image of me....
Offended?? No.....
Edited
Interesting ......
I responded to you based on your original post
So
Does that still make me pathetic seeing as you have now said it was a mistake ?
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 11:27
Starman has a great idea, I just hope he posts it.
Starman has a great idea, I just hope he posts it.
LMAO !!
Too scared to !
It's so hard to get through to some people.
If you know what your doing fine, go and do a wedding.
If you dont have a clue then what are you doing shooting a wedding ?.
And time and time again people come on this forum who dont know the basics and think it's fine to do a wedding. It's not just weddings but any kind of photography work, it's only weddings that we mention as you only get one shot at it.
But it is not your call to make.
So as you have not lost anything why not just show a bit of goodwill and give some useful advice(as they are going to do it anyway).
Your post about my avatar was pathetic....
I'm bored now...
Back to work
ivortripod
19-06-2008, 11:29
It's so hard to get through to some people.
If you know what your doing fine, go and do a wedding.
If you dont have a clue then what are you doing shooting a wedding ?.
And time and time again people come on this forum who dont know the basics and think it's fine to do a wedding. It's not just weddings but any kind of photography work, it's only weddings that we mention as you only get one shot at it.
:bonk::bonk::bonk::bonk::bonk:
digitalmaniac
19-06-2008, 11:29
I don't but simplicity and laziness come to mind. Of course a professional in any trade anywhere would never resort to either of those.
My point being what difference does it make. if you shoot manual then you choose the aperture you want and then judge what speed is correct. So unless you want to over or under expose for white or dark objects-ap does the same thing anyway. just means you dont have to move the tog wheel for the speed.
Ive got to admit I have gone to full manual now-but if im just walking round shooting something in general use ap so i know i wont miss it. if im shooting the same type ofthings of course Quick shots donthave time to adjust speed.
I'm going to say this once and once only.
If anyone on here can't discuss something in an adult and respectful manner, go and find another forum to play on. I don't normally threaten the banning stick, but if I see more personal attacks and rudeness, this thread will be closed along with some accounts, that goes for BOTH sides of this little 'argument'.
birdy961
19-06-2008, 11:31
I'm going to say this once and once only.
If anyone on here can't discuss something in an adult and respectful manner, go and find another forum to play on. I don't normally threaten the banning stick, but if I see more personal attacks and rudeness, this thread will be closed along with some accounts, that goes for BOTH sides of this little 'argument'.
Well said :thumbs:
Dangleman
19-06-2008, 11:32
I think Duncans wedding photos are fantastic. He wasn't about when I got married. Its almost worth getting divorced and remarrying her :)
Arrrg too many replies going on - could someone kindly tell me who Duncan is, or post a link to his wedding shots please?
My point being what difference does it make. if you shoot manual then you choose the aperture you want and then judge what speed is correct. So unless you want to over or under expose for white or dark objects-ap does the same thing anyway. just means you dont have to move the tog wheel for the speed.
Ive got to admit I have gone to full manual now-but if im just walking round shooting something in general use ap so i know i wont miss it. if im shooting the same type ofthings of course Quick shots donthave time to adjust speed.
Think you mis understood. I'm not saying auto is wrong:)
digitalmaniac
19-06-2008, 11:34
Think you mis understood. I'm not saying auto is wrong:)
Ok:razz::lol:
Arrrg too many replies going on - could someone kindly tell me who Duncan is, or post a link to his wedding shots please?
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=737714&postcount=153
StewartR
19-06-2008, 11:37
I know several pros that shoot on P through choice the whole day, and turn out good stuff with it. It's not because they don't understand how to use their camera, it's because they understand very well how the camera operates in P mode and fit their shooting around that.
At a Joe Buissink seminar (american celeb photographer) he claimed to work on P for most of the day. His minimum fee is $10,000.That's a very good point.
My last non-digital SLR was a Minolta Dynax, and the response of the programmed modes was documented very well in the manual. So I knew exactly how the camera would trade off shutter-speed and aperture in any given situation, and I knew when that would work for me and when it wouldn't.
I'm sometimes frustrated by the lack of documentation of the Canon programmed modes. I wish they were documented properly, so I could know when I could safely use them (ie when they would make the same kind of decisions I would) and when not. If I were a professional and people were paying me to get results, I think I'd probably set some time aside to work it out for myself. But nobody is paying me, so it's not that important to me.So to be "Professional" you need to stay out of [P] mode :shrug:
I thought it was results that counted :thinking:Absolutely. (So long as the results can be relied upon.)
So to be "Professional" you need to stay out of [P] mode :shrug:
I thought it was results that counted :thinking:
Well I have to say that if after I have looked at WeddingHacks shots that I have just seen and loved.... if he said to me "Janice, I took all those shots on fully automatic on my camera" then I would answer "Good for you and well done."
It is the result that counts.. the bride and groom couldnt care what setting your camera is on. If P happens to work best in certain situations, then use it.
Dangleman
19-06-2008, 11:39
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=737714&postcount=153
Thanks Susane - cracking stuff indeed
digitalmaniac
19-06-2008, 11:39
Yes if I can be as good as Duncan one day-I will be in heaven. That is a pro tog imho. Im not worthy LOL
bookwyse
19-06-2008, 11:40
We don't mind helping but don't mess with peoples big day if you don't know what to do.
Asking things like do I need flash for a wedding or any other simple thing, if you dont know what to do don't do it.
The point you are all missing is that it is the B&G big day. NO ONE elses. If they choose to ask a friend/relation to do the photo's that is THEIR choice. I fthat person then comes on here and asks for help on what to do in order to make the best of the day then I think it is down to us to TRY and help them.
Not ridicule them in a way that frightens people off!!!!!!
We all have to start somewhere and I am willing to bet that PapapLazarou made a few mistakes in his time that were paid for by the client and also had to ask for assistance.
I applaud all of those who are brave enough to assist someone on their wedding day when asked and have the balls to ask for help.
I dont think ANY of those who said they were doing a wedding said they were getting paid for doing so either!!!!!!
ivortripod
19-06-2008, 11:42
I'm going to say this once and once only.
If anyone on here can't discuss something in an adult and respectful manner, go and find another forum to play on. I don't normally threaten the banning stick, but if I see more personal attacks and rudeness, this thread will be closed along with some accounts, that goes for BOTH sides of this little 'argument'.
I'm with you Marcel [honest]:bonk:
The point you are all missing is that it is the B&G big day
I did mention that earlier.
professional using p mode:thinking:
i think it doesnt sound bad as long as you understood and kept an eye on the settings your using. your camera manufacturer has put a lot of time thought, testing into getting the modes working correctly and perfecting it, so why not use it, as long as you understand what it is using and whether it achieves the shot your after. but again we are bought back to knowing your equipment and how to use it properly.
if we are talking people who use p mode because it is the only mode they know how to use then i would class that as different.
Your post about my avatar was pathetic....
I'm bored now...
Back to work
awwwww
its been so entertaining
:lol:
PapaLazarou
19-06-2008, 11:47
The point you are all missing is that it is the B&G big day. NO ONE elses. If they choose to ask a friend/relation to do the photo's that is THEIR choice. I fthat person then comes on here and asks for help on what to do in order to make the best of the day then I think it is down to us to TRY and help them.
Not ridicule them in a way that frightens people off!!!!!!
We all have to start somewhere and I am willing to bet that PapapLazarou made a few mistakes in his time that were paid for by the client and also had to ask for assistance.
I applaud all of those who are brave enough to assist someone on their wedding day when asked and have the balls to ask for help.
I dont think ANY of those who said they were doing a wedding said they were getting paid for doing so either!!!!!!
I make mistakes all the time, and so will every other wedding tog.
But to ask for help on the basics come on, just dont do it if you dont know.
In the meantime.... all novices have a look at THIS (http://tips.romanzolin.com/articles/article006.php#IntheBagofWeddingPhotographer)
and EVERYONE SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!! :D:D :lol: :D
I make mistakes all the time, and so will every other wedding tog.
But to ask for help on the basics come on, just dont do it if you dont know.
But surely the point is that the people who come on here asking for help are not wedding togs, they are friends / family of a bride or groom who can't afford a wedding tog and want to do the best possible that they can to record the big day for that friend.
If someone is saying that they are planning to charge £1300 for a day, have never photographed a wedding and don't know where to start then by all means tell them politely that you don't think it's appropriate.
But to generally slate everyone who isn't a pro and wants to take photos at a wedding seems a bit off to me.
awwwww
its been so entertaining
:lol:
Stop being antagonistic.
This is perfect
My plan can finally happen .....
What I am going to do is advertise nationally for loads of wedding bookings
Then I am going to buy a load of kit cameras and modify them so they stay on P
Give one each to a load of amateurs along with a copy of the how to do a wedding guide and then sit back and count my money !
Cant fail !!!
perhaps time to close the thread?
digitalmaniac
19-06-2008, 11:57
Sorry that article said use manual flash and the flash will work out the light-will it LOL
Thought that was what manual meant-manually adjust it yourself
But to ask for help on the basics come on, just dont do it if you dont know.
So never aspire is that it?
How does one strive to improve without asking?
Sorry that article said use manual flash and the flash will work out the light-will it LOL
Thought that was what manual meant-manually adjust it yourself
doh! didnt see that. I think he mustve meant use manual on the camera.. that is what I do.. and let the flash do its own thing. :thumbs:
digitalmaniac
19-06-2008, 12:02
Awww yes:bonk:
Dont ya just love these smilies
This is perfect
My plan can finally happen .....
What I am going to do is advertise nationally for loads of wedding bookings
Then I am going to buy a load of kit cameras and modify them so they stay on P
Give one each to a load of amateurs along with a copy of the how to do a wedding guide and then sit back and count my money !
Cant fail !!!
Oh dear:bang:
perhaps time to close the thread?
Possibly lol
I think weve had our fun and the answer is no one will ever agree on this subject
birdy961
19-06-2008, 12:03
perhaps time to close the thread?
:thumbs:
digitalmaniac
19-06-2008, 12:04
Dunno i think this thread is great now we are away from a slanging match lol