View Full Version : Paypal users beware :(
I sell photographs from my website using paypal. I dont have many other options that make it simple and easy .
Around 3 months ago I sold £15 quids worth and £1.50 del =£16.50
a month ago i get a notification from paypal saying the money has been taken back and on hold under investigation as the card owner says card used without permision.
i replied saying no query when they recieved the pictures and the paypal email of buyer no longer recognised..
today on return from my hols i find not only has the 16.50 been given back to the buyer but 7 quid costs taken out of my account for paypal sorting it out :( so i lose 23.50 and they have the pics.. All I have is there postal address which I will be using to have words with the buyer :(
Its put me off using paypal for large amounts of money (equipment sales for example) as it can all be taken back later even 2 months after ya recieved the money.. and you get to pay extra for losing out..
so if you didn't already know this can happen.. ya do now :(
Ring their local police force, if they've done that and got the goods, then the police need to be investigating.
Still, it sucks to have it happen :( Sorry to hear it's happened to you.
www.paypalsucks.com
foodpoison
18-07-2008, 13:44
Yeah its a nasty problem that paypal need to sort out.
Always have to be wary of it.
Should always send it signed recorded, and so you can prove to paypal that someone at the cardholder's address signed for it.
But that's outrageous!! How were you meant to know it was used without the owners permission, as long as registered paypal name and address matched with the details you used for delivery, WHY is it your fault? In fact, it should be the bank/card issuer that are taking this up not paypal as its classed as fraud if its genuine and fraud if it isn't, if you see what I mean. I take it you are objecting to paypal in the strongest possible way?
Recieving it isnt the problem.. no one disputes they got the pictures... the CC holder says the card was used without there permission :( I can write to owners and ask for pics back and they may even send them.. but I am still down.. it seems money you recieve in paypal can be taken back from you well after recieving it.. its put me off em :(
paypal is getting worse - im removing it from my sold items so i cant take payments from it anymore sod it :(
isnt there something similar out there to use??
It wouldn't surprise me if the buyer was a naive paypal user who didn't recognise the entry on their credit card statement. Often people forget that their paypal account is linked to either a bank account or a credit card. Without spare funds in the paypal account, the linked account gets debited. The buyer may have challenged the unrecognised credit card debit in good faith.
I can't see anyone challenging such a small amount otherwise.
But that's outrageous!! How were you meant to know it was used without the owners permission, as long as registered paypal name and address matched with the details you used for delivery, WHY is it your fault? In fact, it should be the bank/card issuer that are taking this up not paypal as its classed as fraud if its genuine and fraud if it isn't, if you see what I mean. I take it you are objecting to paypal in the strongest possible way?
case closed according to them... they have a policy to help cradit card companies ,, investigate and act.. it seems i get to pay the 7 quid for there admin of taking my money back off me :(
In which part of the country is the buyer? I knock on doors for a living ;)
Do the buyers dispute ordering the pictures? as opposed to disputing the card usage was unauthorised or receiving them?
Do the buyers dispute ordering the pictures? as opposed to disputing the card usage was unauthorised or receiving them?
I would hazard a guess that the person ordering the photos was not the cardholder. Husband ordering on wife's card - or son on mother's etc.
I would hazard a guess that the person ordering the photos was not the cardholder. Husband ordering on wife's card - or son on mother's etc.
Yes, that would be my guess too, which is why I am asking if there is a dispute that someone in the household actually ordered them. If this is the case, I think paypal are totally out of order in taking an admin fee as the order was taken in good faith.
Get door banging kippax :rules:
Yep it is outrageous!
It seems that paypal can claw money back upto a couple of months.
In an effort to stamp out card fraud, it seems that they have "inadvertantly" given the fraudsters a bit more "leeway" :thumbsdown:
I filed a recent claim against a fleabay scammer, got the money back eventually,
( jeeze that was hard work) but with a "proviso" that if it was counter claimed then I could have my refund "reclaimed"! WTF is that all about :shrug:
I too wish there was a safer alternative, or at least the OoFT should really look at how paypal operates"
May be worth looking at: http://www.paypalsucks.com/
Have you thought of using WorldPay or Google Checkout
How exactly was the card used without permission? If it was registered on the cardholder paypal account then technically it was the paypal account that was used without permission and paypal should investiage how that happened and what security was in place.
A few years back I had to do a chargeback through paypal after buying a 1.4x TC on ebay, the seller had listed it under Canon but shipped a Nikon mount. They weren't willing to refund so I returned the goods (signed for) and then waited 30 days before I could claim it back through the bank. ebay and paypal didn't want to help so I just waited and the bank refunded my money. But this is very different to your situation as there was a problem with the goods and the seller was being an idiot.
I also wonder what paypal and the bank have said about the goods, shouldn't they be doing something to help recover them?
Have you thought of using WorldPay or Google Checkout
worldpay would be great.. but the last time i looked it was 350 quid a year plus setup plus big % per transaction.. I would guess google checkout will have simmilar ways to paypal with things like this.
JumboBeef
18-07-2008, 14:47
Yep, that's PayPal for you. NEVER sell anything through PayPal you wouldn't be happy giving away. There is no sellers protection, you are totally at the mercy of the buyer being honest.
I sold an item through eBay using PayPal a while ago, and the buyer left positive feedback saying how happy they were with the item. About two months later, they claimed to have never received the item! Even though there was proof they had (the positive feedback), Palpay still refunded their money!
Use Google Checkout: much better, and if you use Adwords as I do, it is totally free to 10x your Adwords bill: if you spend £100 per month on Adwords, you can take £1,000 through Checkout without charges!
SimonTALM
18-07-2008, 15:19
Ouch, feel for you. Do you KNOW that the address you sent them too is the cardholders address?
I'd try and contact the cardholder to identify if this is a "mistake" or to identify the person who used the card (e.g. a son, daughter, husband, wife etc) then I'd send them by recorded delivery a bill for the £23.50 plus a suitable admin fee (£7 appears to be reasonable) with payment by cleared funds within 14 days. If they fail to pay take them to the small claims court with addtional fees included in the claim. I think then failure to pay = CCJ and with a CCJ in the current climate they'll never get credit again.
If it's not a "mistake" I'd also contact the Police and notify them that someone at the address has commited credit card fraud and push them to investigate the situation.
I'd probably start of nice without mentioning police, fraud, bills etc and bring those out later if required. I most certainly wouldn't accept the photos back saying they are "custom goods".
P.S. What were the photos of?
sepulchre
18-07-2008, 15:24
Paypal is open to fraud from all angles whether you are buying or selling. A number of years ago I bought a laptop from ebay which never arrived, paypal and ebay bounced me back and forth between one another saying it was each others problem which made me smile given they are owned by the same company! Eventually paypal refunded me something like £112 after deducting their admin fee, quite how they can justify doing this when by making a refund they admitted I was in the right is beyond me, I ended up claiming the rest from my credit card.
More recently I had a welcome letter from ebay thanking me for opening a business account (which I hadn’t opened), the details they had were pretty much correct except for my first name which was wrong, I guess who ever opened the account must have taken a stab in the dark. I queried this with ebay and they refused to discuss the issue with me as they could not breach customer confidentially! I ended up speaking to the fraud squad on that one.
I wont touch paypal or ebay now as they IMHO seem to support the crooks and ignore the innocent parties.
Best of luck getting this sorted out, but given my experience it may be simpler to cut your losses on this one.
(was that a bit rant-ish :D)
I recently had a problem on Ebay after selling an item and being aware of this I cleared my paypal account to a level I was happy with them taking, the rest was sent to another account and I also deleted card details / banking detalis.
Paypal is convenient but they always fall on the side of the buyer, never the seller.
ivortripod
18-07-2008, 15:35
Yep, that's PayPal for you. NEVER sell anything through PayPal you wouldn't be happy giving away. There is no sellers protection, you are totally at the mercy of the buyer being honest.
I sold an item through eBay using PayPal a while ago, and the buyer left positive feedback saying how happy they were with the item. About two months later, they claimed to have never received the item! Even though there was proof they had (the positive feedback), Palpay still refunded their money!
Use Google Checkout: much better, and if you use Adwords as I do, it is totally free to 10x your Adwords bill: if you spend £100 per month on Adwords, you can take £1,000 through Checkout without charges!
Just looked on Google Checkout Stores list and there appeared to be no camera retailers on there at all..:thinking:
P.S. What were the photos of?
It was five 7x5 pics @ £3 each. all of the same cricketer from diff matches (low leagues www.cricketpics.co.uk) so it deffo wasnt a random sale.. someones taken time to find the right pics.
Live and learn.. but deffo not taking any big amounts of money through paypal.. when changing lenses or cameras will take cash or summat.
Defiance
18-07-2008, 15:48
I do the same as AndrewC. As soon as I get the money, I withdraw it. Legally, it is very difficult for PayPal to them force you to pay them back. They try with things like debt collectors, but they have no legal right to repossess anything.
Also, insist on your sale items that you will only deal with confirmed and verified PayPal accounts as this should also give you some more protection.
I recently had a problem on Ebay after selling an item and being aware of this I cleared my paypal account to a level I was happy with them taking, the rest was sent to another account and I also deleted card details / banking detalis.
Paypal is convenient but they always fall on the side of the buyer, never the seller.
see my post above I had a long running claim against a fraudulent seller and struggled for a long time to get my money refunded
SimonTALM
18-07-2008, 16:41
It was five 7x5 pics @ £3 each. all of the same cricketer from diff matches (low leagues www.cricketpics.co.uk) so it deffo wasnt a random sale.. someones taken time to find the right pics.
Live and learn.. but deffo not taking any big amounts of money through paypal.. when changing lenses or cameras will take cash or summat.
You talk like you've given up - I hope you haven't and are persuing this, otherwise the person could do this again to someone else (e.g. me!!) this time for a lot more money. If it wasn't a simple "mistake" it's fraud or theft (not sure which)
Snake Man
18-07-2008, 16:52
Send an invoice to the address, with 30 days to pay. If they still haven't paid in that time, send them a late payment invoice (add a late payment charge onto it) with a further 30 days.
If they still haven't paid, hand it over to a debt collection agency. Most don't cost you a thing, as they will add their own charge onto the bill.
I think the problem with PP and fleabay is that they have grown so big, and there are probabley hundreds of 1000's of satisified customers ( or at least they don't complain)
that they can afford to loose a few disgruntled customers. When things go pear shaped then it matters little to them. Their business methods really do need to be investigated
worldpay would be great.. but the last time i looked it was 350 quid a year plus setup plus big % per transaction.. I would guess google checkout will have simmilar ways to paypal with things like this.
No doubt they will, however Google are not like Paypal(ebay) in terms of their business practice. Ebay/Paypal's policy is always to rule in favour of the purchaser, they also have a clause in their terms that says they can freeze all asset's in your paypal account for up 6 months with no prior notification and without need to contact you during those 6 months.
From the paypal sucks website there is also this as an alternative:
http://www.merchantinc.com/
Stop losing sales because you don't accept credit cards. With our FREE Online Application, you can Accept All Major Credit Cards on your Website or eBay auction in less than 24 hours! Plus, you'll also get a Free Virtual Terminal, so you can process credit card transactions manually, from any computer with online access!
Fact: Accepting credit cards with a Real Merchant Account adds credibility to your business, while increasing the potential for impulse sales.
Sign up today for a credit card merchant account with our FREE online application and pay No Application Fee and No Set Up Fee. You will be able to accept credit cards including Visa, Mastercard, American Express and Discover for your products and services in less than 24 hours upon completion of the online application.
JumboBeef
18-07-2008, 19:08
From the paypal sucks website there is also this as an alternative:
http://www.merchantinc.com/
Yes, but their charges are quite high:
Retail Discount Rate (Swipe) 1.84%
Internet Discount Rate (Internet/Mail/Phone) 2.39%
Transaction Fee $0.25 per transaction
Statement / Service Fee $5 per month
Internet Gateway Fee $19.95 per month
Google checkout is much cheaper (http://checkout.google.com/seller/fees.html?hl=en&gl=GB)(and my in case, free!)
xsjado-man
18-07-2008, 19:27
PAYPAL are a joke, they never listen to sellers, iv had many people do things like that to me via paypal
You have got me worried now i have recently sold my 350d and some other stuff through e-bay/paypal and got nearly £400 paid in to paypal which i have withdrew and spent i couldnt afford for the £230 i got for my 350d to be taken back
Flash In The Pan
18-07-2008, 19:56
This is a commom Paypal scam. I'm sure there is something in the terms and conditions about amounts under a certain figure being automatically refunded if challenged. Iirc it was $24 or thereabouts which probably equates to about £15 going by Paypal's exchange rates. I've had it done to me a couple of times, once was probably a genuine error by the buyer (not recognising the name that appeared on the cc statement as mentioned above) but the other time was definitely a scammer. There's really nowt you can do about it, the Police aren't going to be interested in wasting manpower on chasing it up - it's hard enough to get them to look out for your car if it gets nicked, never mind going looking for someone for £16.50 and I get the feeling they would view it as a civil matter and not a criminal one anyway.
For it to be criminal I think you'd have to prove that the cardholder deliberately set out to defraud you, which is nigh-on impossible to do. Best to just chalk it up to experience, sorry :(
hence why i said.. you lve and learn.. might send her a letter asking for the pics back to spook her.. but after counting to 10 prob wont do that either... my post wasnt to look for ways to stop it or getthe money back but to highlight what can happen.
Hi all
the paypal structure is outrageous. I agree with the comments above about big enough now to not give a s~#*. It does seem that they almost do support the scammers
Had a couple of bad experiences with them myself. Wish that googlecheckout was an option I could use but based in France, no go.
terryodee
Small Claims Court...
Just because they are disputing using the credit card doesn't mean they are disputing buying the items. I would send them a legal letter saying that they have 14 days to reply or pay in full. If they don't start a small claims procedure against them.
puddleduck
18-07-2008, 20:26
I hate Paypal for this reason, and its even worse now because on Ebay you have to display a Paypal logo and be willing to accept it, and accept payments through Credit Card. But if the credit card is stolen, then you lose the item and the money.
Boney Boy
18-07-2008, 21:03
Can I suggest payments by BACS aka Bank Transfer.? If you're selling images from your web site, will your ecom solution allow you to create an invoice as opposed to just taking a payment there and then.? If so when images are ordered, your cart creates a total amount due right..? So, the purchaser receives a correctly worded email with instructions and simply does a bank transfer which takes around 3-5 days to complete at most, and the money is in your bank - sorted.
It they are geniune orders, paying by BACS is not a problem - in fact they may (your customers) prefer that as [a] no credit card charges [b] there are still a lot of people out there that don't have a card, and [c] many people don't like PayPal.
We design and build web site and have an e-commerce solution called the G-Cart, and as standard it offers integration with PayPal (sorry), Protx and WorldPay, and cheque with order/BACS payment as the standard methods of payment. However, it is not really suitable for selling images from - it's more a product based solution, sorry. BTW i'm not trying to sell it, I am just letting you know that I have some experience with e-payment solutions.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but any recourse you may pursue in trying to get back £23.50 may cost you a lot more. It might just be best to put this behind you and move forward, no matter how annoying it is :bat:
Look at it this way - in some respects, at least you've only had your fingers burnt for £23.50 and you (and everyone reading and contributing to this thread) have now learnt from that experience... it could have been a lot worse! What if they had ordered 10 times that :bang:
If it helps - 5 years ago we had a client whose business went down with them owing me £13K..!:bonk: :bonk: :bonk: Imagine that :gag:
Flash In The Pan
18-07-2008, 21:09
Small Claims Court...
Just because they are disputing using the credit card doesn't mean they are disputing buying the items. I would send them a legal letter saying that they have 14 days to reply or pay in full. If they don't start a small claims procedure against them.
For fifteen quid??:thinking:
For fifteen quid??:thinking:
Hell Yeah! Plus I'd add charges for my time for chasing it etc ;)
As mentioned before, send them an invoice and then a reminder. If no joy, send them parcels of dog s**t now and again. It wont cost too much 2nd class!!
Or sign them up for free porn mags both gay and straight!!
You may not get your money back but think of the smiles and pleasure you would get in annoying them!!
You may be lucky after sending an invoice but wouldnt hold your breath...... Good luck mate!!!
It was five 7x5 pics @ £3 each. all of the same cricketer from diff matches (low leagues www.cricketpics.co.uk) so it deffo wasnt a random sale.. someones taken time to find the right pics.
Live and learn.. but deffo not taking any big amounts of money through paypal.. when changing lenses or cameras will take cash or summat.
When you accepted money was the account were Verified as well as address?
As mentioned before, send them an invoice and then a reminder. If no joy, send them parcels of dog s**t now and again. It wont cost too much 2nd class!!
Or sign them up for free porn mags both gay and straight!!
You may not get your money back but think of the smiles and pleasure you would get in annoying them!!
You may be lucky after sending an invoice but wouldnt hold your breath...... Good luck mate!!!
Nice one Vinny! You could also book them hearing aid / reclining bed / double glazing appointments, and order them a HUGE takeaway....
Allan
strobemonkey
18-07-2008, 22:07
Paypal sucks! There are others you can use like PPPay or Nochex. I have used Nochex before and its good if you are a seller because they don't refund payments, which for the same reason might put buyers off.
If you don't get your money back, I'm more than willing to send them junk for you! :)
Galaxy66
18-07-2008, 22:16
Yeah its a nasty problem that paypal need to sort out.
Always have to be wary of it.
Should always send it signed recorded, and so you can prove to paypal that someone at the cardholder's address signed for it.
^^^ The best advice indeed. I have always sent my sold goods via RMSD.
Kipax - it sounds like you are giving up? It will probably only take a single letter to sort this out. You have the name and address, so.....
Dear *****
On the (date) you ordered (description) and paid £** via PayPal.
This company/we/I fulfilled your order in good faith, despatching the items on the (date).
We are somewhat dismayed to learn that the PayPal transaction has since been reversed due to the card holder not recognising the debit.
We suspect this may be an oversight on someone's part and invite you to rectify the matter by forwarding a cheque to the above address made payable to ********* and made out in the sum of £*****. This figure is the original cost of the goods plus the PayPal reversal fee which we have had to bear.
If we are wrong and this has not been an oversight then a credit card has been used without the knowledge or consent of the cardholder. This is fraud and we shall convey your details and information about this transaction to the relevant authorities, namely, the Police.
We look forward to receiving your payment within seven days.
Love & kisses
Galaxy66
18-07-2008, 22:29
Even an anti paypal site here, http://www.paypalsucks.com/
Paypal have engineered their terms and conditions to increase profits by giving them the right to claw back/impound funds and charge admin fees for the slightest reasons.
I had some newbie make a mess of his payment and it took weeks before I got the cash for my goods, all this time my money was earning interest for them.
hey 2blue4u .. i already lost 23.50 on the deal..i may as well make it 24 quid and buy a stamp... will use that fanx.. prob get nowhere but what the heck :)
boneyboy your not the bearer of bad news I KNOW! hence why i said you live and learn :) I just wanted to highlight the prob for others to consider.. I have certainly reconsidered the amounts I will take from now on.
Galaxy66
18-07-2008, 22:35
Kipax - it sounds like you are giving up? It will probably only take a single letter to sort this out. You have the name and address, so.....
Dear *****
On the (date) you ordered (description) and paid £** via PayPal.
This company/we/I fulfilled your order in good faith, despatching the items on the (date).
We are somewhat dismayed to learn that the PayPal transaction has since been reversed due to the card holder not recognising the debit.
We suspect this may be an oversight on someone's part and invite you to rectify the matter by forwarding a cheque to the above address made payable to ********* and made out in the sum of £*****. This figure is the original cost of the goods plus the PayPal reversal fee which we have had to bear.
If we are wrong and this has not been an oversight then a credit card has been used without the knowledge or consent of the cardholder. This is fraud and we shall convey your details and information about this transaction to the relevant authorities, namely, the Police.
We look forward to receiving your payment within seven days.
Love & kisses
You see some great expert advice on this forum:thumbs:
I think Paypal is a joke. I hate Paypal (http://www.paypalwarning.com).
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