1D Shutter Life - Failure at 20k reasonable?

[1DMARKII]

Hello peeps,

As some of you may be aware I recently had a 1D IIN shutter die at 20k actuations since new.

Being a member of CPS I received my quote today:

"Replace shutter unit.Set up and test. = £188"

I am curious if a 1D series failing at 20k is acceptable or am I right to feel a little bit disheartened to have this happen and pay £188?

Maybe I am being unrealistic? :shrug:

Must admit it does make me wonder whether it is worth buying all this expensive gear only for it to fail so soon.

Cheers,

Murray :)

[Flash In The Pan]

According to Canon's bumf it's rated at 200,000 actuations........

[mole2k]

Given that it's rated to 200k, I would be quite annoyed if it failed any anything under about 100-150k.

[KIPAX]

am I right to feel a little bit disheartened

and the rest... do cps not have anything to say about it.. or are they going with the ..your unlucky.. line?

[natjag]

I would consider taking this up with the place of purchase. Under the sale of goods act, the product didn't deliver it's published targets. There are a few threads on TP that detail the SOG's act and steps to take.
try this one:-
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=85519

[CT]

Isn't the 1DMK3 rated at 300K shutter actuations? It isn't that long ago that the Canon F1 was the mechanical 'built like a tank' flagship of the Canon range - fully mechanical, and the shutter was rated at just 100k actuations.

Manufactures are well aware that digital shooters shoot a lot more exposures than film users ever did, and there's little doubt the pressure is on them to increase life expectancy of the focal plane shutters. These cameras are now capable of 8-10 exposures per second. Think what happens every time you press that shutter button...

The aperture closes to it's preset size, the mirror goes up-shutter opens and closes- mirror comes down - aperture opens up again. The problem with FP shutters is they're right on top of the sensor, so the only way they can uncover the sensor is to be the same size as the sensor. They're big mechanisms and subjected to enormous stresses, particularly on continuous shooting.

I don't ever remember shutter life being quoted for any of the leaf type shutters in other cameras they just seem to go on forever. and need the odd adjustment or spring replacing at most.

Whether manufacturers can routinely achieve the expected shutter lives they're quoting with FP shutters, I'd have to have my doubts.

[redhed17]

If I had a camera that was supposed to be good for 200,000 shutter activations, and it went belly up after 20,000, :eek: I'd be very peed off. :(

I'd feel even worse if they wanted to charge me for a replacement. :bonk:

[hotchef23]

how old is the camera?

[StewartR]

Let's not get too carried away with the 200,000 figure, folks. It's just an expected value, not a guarantee.

Assuming Canon's engineers know what they're doing, I would expect that to be the MTTF (Mean Time To Failure), which would imply that 50% will fail before that time and 50% after that time. Or maybe they've picked some other percentile - perhaps it means that (say) 20% will fail before 200,000 actuations and 80% after. It is certainly not a guarantee that your shutter will live to 200,000 and it is not a prediction that it will die at 200,001.

Having said that, I agree that 20,000 does sound a bit on the low side. But unfortunately I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on legally. If I were you I'd get back to Canon and suggest that (bearing in mind you're a CPS member and you've got all this expensive Canon kit, blah blah blah, and unlucky you've been for a shutter to fail so far short of its rating) they might like to contribute to the cost of repair.

[hotchef23]

Let's not get too carried away with the 200,000 figure, folks. It's just an expected value, not a guarantee.

Assuming Canon's engineers know what they're doing, I would expect that to be the MTTF (Mean Time To Failure), which would imply that 50% will fail before that time and 50% after that time. Or maybe they've picked some other percentile - perhaps it means that (say) 20% will fail before 200,000 actuations and 80% after. It is certainly not a guarantee that your shutter will live to 200,000 and it is not a prediction that it will die at 200,001.

Having said that, I agree that 20,000 does sound a bit on the low side. But unfortunately I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on legally. If I were you I'd get back to Canon and suggest that (bearing in mind you're a CPS member and you've got all this expensive Canon kit, blah blah blah, and unlucky you've been for a shutter to fail so far short of its rating) they might like to contribute to the cost of repair.


depends on age of camera and the claims of the company

most things are covered for up to six years, but that doesnt mean you will get a new one after six years.

to me clear case of not meeting the claims of the company and not meeting the described for purpose advertising.

need to know age and then go from there. and yes he does have a leg to stand on legally.

[pxl8]

If you went the legal route under SoGA I think you'd have a winner. 20k isn't reasonable when Canon quote 200k and that's what the decision will be based on, the expectations of a "reasonable person".

But do you want to spend the time and effort taking that option and is it worth the saving of £188 when balanced against the time without the camera? It might be worth testing the waters with the shop to see how they stand, they might, just might, feel it's worth paying for the repair in order to avoid the additional costs they'd face from defending a claim.

[DiddyDave]

Only yesterday I read an article from a sports tog shooting up to 3,000 images a day at some events he attends; so on that basis this new camera could break after a week???

Yep - seriously peed off would be my response too

I'm with pxl8 on this one

DD

[admirable]

Could someone post a link to the Canon 'rated to 200,000 statement' as I can't find it and would like to read what they actually say.

I would also like to know how old this camera is and if the shutter count of 20,000 is warranted and if it was bought new in the UK.

[pxl8]

A magnesium alloy body with dust and moisture resistant sealing protects the EOS-1D Mark III from harsh weather and the rigours of daily use. Shutter reliability is a durable 300,000 cycles.

is what Canon say for the mkIII, I'm guessing it was similar for the mkII but 200k instead.

[shiato storm]

write a well worded letter, include example shots of shutter going tits up and don't forget to mention sales of goods act and reasonable wear and tear - if its rated to have a life expectancy in the region of 200,000k then to fail at 10% of this is unacceptable. this happened to me (non-N version), had a chat to canon - who did nothing for a couple of weeks, until I got fed up and called back and said I was CPS then a bit of frantic shuffling their end and I got a call back in an hour, ups sticker came the next day and it got fixed f.o.c. - be reasonable and polite and you should be fine.

sale of goods act means its basically got a reasonable life time in which it is expected to work without problems, six years seems to be the norm, and for higher value equipment this is obviously weighted towards an extended period of time; you paid a lot so expect it not to die in only 2 or 3 years! I believe professional equipment (like the 1d series) falls into this category. That canon state an average life expectancy on a critical working part does help in your favour - 10% of the lifespan and it fails is, without wanting to sound stupid, taking the ****. mine died at 15k so I know exactly how it feels...

[mole2k]

My 20D is around 40k, id of been annoyed had it died at the 20k mark nevermind a professional grade camera.

[StewartR]

Could someone post a link to the Canon 'rated to 200,000 statement' as I can't find it and would like to read what they actually say.

I would also like to know how old this camera is and if the shutter count of 20,000 is warranted and if it was bought new in the UK.See Canon's 1D Mark IIN White Paper (http://www.robgalbraith.com/public_files/Canon_EOS-1D_Mark_II_N_White_Paper.pdf), page 14.

[malla1962]

my 1dmk2 failed at under 40000:(

[1DMARKII]

Hello,

First off thanks for taking the time out to reply to my thread - I appreciate the help :)

Here was the first response from the CPS rep:

"I have spoken to the Canon service department and there have informed me that there is no policy stating that if the camera has done under 20,000 shots that we'll replace the shutter free of charge, if it's out of warranty by more than a couple of months then it's out of warranty and chargeable. However, they did say to ask the customer to send it in for inspection and they will see if there's anything we can do, depending on the condition and how far it's out of warranty, but it will purely be goodwill.
If the camera is in a good condition, you have a better chance of them repairing / replacing the faulty unit for you though I cannot promise you anything."


I did not say to them that there was a policy of free repair - I did mention that other folk had theirs fail above 20k and got it repaired free of charge.

What gets on my wick as such is when you hear on the net that other folk had a shutter that failed at 50k and Canon said it was well below expected limits so replaced it free of charge.

I do not mind paying £188 if I have to as in the end it makes more financial sense to get it repaired for the cost of £188 than to throw away the camera.

Camera was purchased from a small independant shop in Scotland 6 months after launch so well out of warranty and the shop itself has ceased trading.

Over two and a bit years I have put 20k through it so to have it fail at such an early stage given the light use is disapointing to say the least.

It has certainly left a sour taste in my mouth and the 5D MKII looks like a no go for me now as I really do not like the way this has worked out so far.

Will just send them another email - might even send one to the board :)

I was not to sure if I was being unrealistic so I thought I would ask you guys and it seems that I am not being to far off the ball.

Many thanks again,

Murray :)

[malla1962]

I had a right go at them over mine failing but I had to pay.

[1DMARKII]

The plot thickens:

Using my downloaded 1D shutter counts from the web its says 19,206 actuations.

Just had a phone call from Canon and they say it has done 140,000 actuations.

Now I am not going to call Canon a liar but it seems I have been stitched up good and proper by the shop I bought it from.

Just a shame the shop is now out of business otherwise it would have been a time for some :bat::rules::bat:

Will just fork out the cash and notch it up as another hindsight moment.

Why cant life be simple?

Thanks for your help,

Murray :)

[Canon User]

Hello peeps,



"Replace shutter unit.Set up and test. = £188"


Murray :)

I'd be happy to pay £188 for a shutter replacement on my 1D MKII N with 63K clicks on it. My estimate was £425 for shutter replacement.
A complete shutter unit costs delivered for the states £126 if I thought I could fit it myself I'd do it!

[malla1962]

Cost me about £180 to have mine done and on the invoice the part was £65
the rest was labor, vat and return postage.I was hapy at that price in the end as the camera got a full service and calibration.

[photographerian]

I've a 1DMK2 and a 1DMK2N. The N has about 345,000 on it. Checked with an image uploaded to flicker the other day. The camera is just on its way back from CPS after have a focus and over exposure problem fixed. So 20K should be brand new. If Canon say its done nearly 150K there should be some tell tale signs of wear and tear on the body.

Mine is looking a bit battered. Been dropped. Banged it into a wall whilst climbing over it. Been soaked through, to the point where it gave up and game me the Err 99 message. Quick overnight staying the airing cupboard and its always fine.

[Canon User]

I'm calling CPS for an estimate this week my body is like new with the odd small mark on it 64k clicks out of 200k they rate on the camera.

[petris]

You will win this case for sure if counter is really under 200k This kind of camera shutter expected life time is a lot longer than 20k. It might take a bit time, but in legal way you will win.

Call directly to UK Canon sales or service manager, i think their might have a lot more understanding than custom service :D

Canon and every manufacturer things have "extended warranty" over normal 12month warranty if problem is quality based or fault in manufacture.

They called it Goodwill warranty but actually it based on law( at least in here, i think it is common in eu area)

[Graham00]

Reading this thread just makes you want to stay Nikon.

[chrisiow]

PM

[richpips]

Reading this thread just makes you want to stay Nikon.

and Nikon shutters live for ever :lol:

[Canon User]

Reading this thread just makes you want to stay Nikon.

Or move to Nikon.

[Graham00]

and Nikon shutters live for ever :lol:

Ok.......live longer ! :naughty:

[admirable]

I don't think anyone IS reading this thread, it was started last year!

[richpips]

...apart from us.

[Kryptix]

I'd be gutted if mine went at 20,000.

I bought a 450D and put 8,000 on it in less than 2 months, and that was using it now and again. When bursting motorsport it adds up quickly.

I now have a 50D that is on 3,000, so that's a large percentage of the shutters life!

[Canon User]

Canon UK sent me out a ups label so camera could be returned to them it was collected from my house wed but they will not get it until mon. Not a very good service so far if you ask me & at one of my busiest times of the year if things keep going along this routethe move to Nikon are looking more & more likely.

[admirable]

That sounds strange, any time I've had anything collected by UPS for Canon it's arrived the next day!

Are you paying for this service?

[Byker28i]

I'd be gutted if mine went at 20,000.

I bought a 450D and put 8,000 on it in less than 2 months, and that was using it now and again. When bursting motorsport it adds up quickly.

I now have a 50D that is on 3,000, so that's a large percentage of the shutters life!

My 40D shutter went at about 40K and 15 months old, not a happy bunny as the previous camera, a 300D is still going strong and I put over 75k shots through that.

The 40D wasn't fixed in a reasonable time under warrenty (8 weeks of faff through Jessops), so in the end I demanded a refund and had vouchers, so upgraded to a 50D.

[Byker28i]

Canon UK sent me out a ups label so camera could be returned to them it was collected from my house wed but they will not get it until mon. Not a very good service so far if you ask me & at one of my busiest times of the year if things keep going along this routethe move to Nikon are looking more & more likely.

That's strange. My 400D went through Canon to Colchester Cameras who sent a courier, collected, booked in the same day and had it turned around fixed to me in 6 days.

The other mob who Jessops used, took a week to book it in, 8 weeks to continuously tell me the part would be there in two days, yes we've got it/no we haven't..


With a 1D Mk2, do you qualify for CPS membership and a 3 day turnaround?

[CT]

With a 1D Mk2, do you qualify for CPS membership and a 3 day turnaround?
It used to be you needed 2 pro quality bodies and a minimum of 3 L lenses to qualify for CPS membership . I'm not sure if it's still the same, but I wouldn't rely too heavily on that 3 day turn around anyway. :D

[Uneducated_Rick]

People keep banging the drum about 200,000 actuations but that is "tested for 200,000 cycles" which sounds to me like Canon fire the shutter 200,000 times to make sure it is working okay and does not fail, not saying it will last on average 200,000 cycles.

Even if it is meant that it lasts 200,000 cycles on average there is no indication of variability; 1, 1000 and 1999 have the same mean and median as 999, 1000 and 1001 yet the number series varies highly.

[Canon User]

People keep banging the drum about 200,000 actuations but that is "tested for 200,000 cycles" which sounds to me like Canon fire the shutter 200,000 times to make sure it is working okay and does not fail, not saying it will last on average 200,000 cycles.

Even if it is meant that it lasts 200,000 cycles on average there is no indication of variability; 1, 1000 and 1999 have the same mean and median as 999, 1000 and 1001 yet the number series varies highly.

If you purchased a new car & was told first service was 10,000 miles would you want to take it in for a new engine or gearbox after 1,000 miles?

I contacted canon at elstree I told them I was a cos member it didn't seam to matter as it took 2 days for them to send out ups label then the service on ups label was standered meaning the collection was wed with the following Mon for delivery. Not a very good service from canon & I'll be telling them so.

[Uneducated_Rick]

If you purchased a new car & was told first service was 10,000 miles would you want to take it in for a new engine or gearbox after 1,000 miles?

I contacted canon at elstree I told them I was a cos member it didn't seam to matter as it took 2 days for them to send out ups label then the service on ups label was standered meaning the collection was wed with the following Mon for delivery. Not a very good service from canon & I'll be telling them so.

Where do Canon say it should last 200,000 actuations? I quoted directly from the Canon leaflet Stuart linked and I cannot see anything to indicate a reasonable lifetime

[Paddysnapper]

Under the Sale of goods act..... The item should be of merchantable quality... I have no personal knowlege of Canon products, but do have of Nikon.... In march the sensor of my venerable Coolpix 5700 failed....This was replaced f.o.c. by Nikon my only input was the postage out. Considering this camera was purchased in 2003, that's what I call service...
The camera was returned by courier in 10days.

I am on Nikon No.5 at present and would not change brand.

[Byker28i]

It used to be you needed 2 pro quality bodies and a minimum of 3 L lenses to qualify for CPS membership . I'm not sure if it's still the same, but I wouldn't rely too heavily on that 3 day turn around anyway. :D

They now allow the XXD range but I think you need a 1D or 5D as a main camera. My local rep (Oxford) wouldn't let me qualify a 40D and 50D, despite the canon website saying these were accepted.

So I just need a busted, cheap early 1D just for the serial number :D

[Canon User]

I can't post a link right now as I'm working from my iphone but google for the canon 1D MKII N white paper at the bottom of page 14 (from memory) it says tested to with stand 200,000 also there's a page on the camera on canon Uk site says the same

[admirable]

All it says is they have tested it for 200,000 cycles. They don't say that they guarantee it for that number nor do they imply that the 200,000 figure is a target that all 1D models should meet. I think they only mention it as no other slr with a focal plane shutter has that high a reliability rating, they will see this as a feather in their cap methinks.

[Uneducated_Rick]

Under the Sale of goods act..... The item should be of merchantable quality... I have no personal knowlege of Canon products, but do have of Nikon.... In march the sensor of my venerable Coolpix 5700 failed....This was replaced f.o.c. by Nikon my only input was the postage out. Considering this camera was purchased in 2003, that's what I call service...
The camera was returned by courier in 10days.

I am on Nikon No.5 at present and would not change brand.

Sale of goods act is only carte blanche for 6 months, after 6 months it is your responsibility to prove that it is a fault with the product not something you may have done to it - so any knocks, bumps or bangs could be blamed.


I can't post a link right now as I'm working from my iphone but google for the canon 1D MKII N white paper at the bottom of page 14 (from memory) it says tested to with stand 200,000 also there's a page on the camera on canon Uk site says the same

Yes, but I quoted what it said, then the second time told you to read my quote which you obviously still haven't done. Itdoesn't say it is tested to withstand 200,000 it says it has been tested 200,000 times, it gives no indication of how long it should last.

[neil_g]

has everyone missed the bit where he said canon reckon its done 140k or am i being silly?

:shrug:

[admirable]

has everyone missed the bit where he said canon reckon its done 140k or am i being silly?

:shrug:

You're being silly, it's a different camera/poster! :D

[Canon User]

Ok if canon think or know most camera shutters will fail before the 200,000 why print this number why not say 100,000 then when they fail it dozen't look so bad & yes reading through different forums there are lots of members posting where their cameras have failed well before 100,000

[admirable]

I give up.

[david1701]

stats+people that don't understand stats = failure :D

we could start wandering round variation and standard deviation but there's no point

[Chaz Photos]

If Canon say they have tested it to 200,000 then it is expected to match that. Sale of goods act will take that as a comment of its qulity

[Uneducated_Rick]

If Canon say they have tested it to 200,000 then it is expected to match that.

Why? All Canon are effectively saying is it has not failed in its first 200,000 actuations, nowhere does it say it should last that long again :bang:

[malla1962]

:plusone:

[mr_pants]

Mine failed after three days and something like a couple of hundred shots at most. I guess that I brought down the mean a little.

[keirik]

Under the Sale of goods act..... The item should be of merchantable quality... I have no personal knowlege of Canon products, but do have of Nikon.... In march the sensor of my venerable Coolpix 5700 failed....This was replaced f.o.c. by Nikon my only input was the postage out. Considering this camera was purchased in 2003, that's what I call service...
The camera was returned by courier in 10days.

I am on Nikon No.5 at present and would not change brand.


not sure you can claim lack of merchantable quality on something that is quite old in tech gear terms even if it has run for only 20k actuations - nikon's behaviour is good, but probably not a legal obligation

disappointing perhaps but doesn't make nikon better than canon, i'm sure there are nikons that have failed in the same way there are many canons that haven't. My 1D's are probably around 250k each

and if nikon are so good, why are you on your fifth? :lol:

[Furtim]

People keep banging the drum about 200,000 actuations but that is "tested for 200,000 cycles" which sounds to me like Canon fire the shutter 200,000 times to make sure it is working okay and does not fail, not saying it will last on average 200,000 cycles.

Even if it is meant that it lasts 200,000 cycles on average there is no indication of variability; 1, 1000 and 1999 have the same mean and median as 999, 1000 and 1001 yet the number series varies highly.

From a statistical point of view, I agree, however, the 1DIII sales gibbins states the following...

"New lighter body with enhanced weather resistance and outstanding reliability: featuring a shutter that's durability-tested to 300,000 exposures"

I don't have the Mk IIn stuff to hand, but assuming it's similar, there is a set expectation that you should get something like 300K exposures out of the camera. Like everything in life, some units may fail after only 1 exposure, some after 1K, some after 400K, but if it fails at significantly below 300K exposures, I would expect Canon to repair at their cost.

[neil_g]

You're being silly, it's a different camera/poster! :D

:coat:

oops

[Paddysnapper]

not sure you can claim lack of merchantable quality on something that is quite old in tech gear terms even if it has run for only 20k actuations - nikon's behaviour is good, but probably not a legal obligation

disappointing perhaps but doesn't make nikon better than canon, i'm sure there are nikons that have failed in the same way there are many canons that haven't. My 1D's are probably around 250k each

and if nikon are so good, why are you on your fifth? :lol:


I am on my fifth in the following order F401 198?.... F80 in 2000.... Coollpix 5700.in 2003 (first digital)... D70s. in 2006... first digital SLR..... D300 in 2008.
Now if that isn't brand loyalty, tell me what is.

Before I went Nikon I had an assortment of cameras, from Lordomat, Olympus,
and a stack of Russian, most of which I still have and use:thumbs:

[pragmatist]

I bet there are threads out there on Nikon shutters failing below their stated amounts.
Not getting into a Nikon v Canon debate, Just saying i reckon the other side has had these problems too :)

[Martyn...]

I bet there are threads out there on Nikon shutters failing below their stated amounts.
Not getting into a Nikon v Canon debate, Just saying i reckon the other side has had these problems too :)

There was one on a D2H that had over 1,250,000 on its original shutter ... luck of the draw ... this model was known for shutter problem/issue that Nikon would replace FOC, this particular D2H with all the clicks never went in for a replacement ... go figure :shrug:

[Paddysnapper]

As you say, Luck of the draw, has a great deal to do with it

[buckas]

wow that's low!

[coldpenguin]

It would be interesting if Canon could confirm whether the camera was originally registered to someone else before you.
Obviously they cannot give out details, but if the camera thinks it is 19k, and somehow Canon have a different number stored somewhere, why?

[admirable]

It would be interesting if Canon could confirm whether the camera was originally registered to someone else before you.
Obviously they cannot give out details, but if the camera thinks it is 19k, and somehow Canon have a different number stored somewhere, why?

I think you're getting the posters mixed up, there are two different stories on this thread.

[coldpenguin]

The plot thickens:

Using my downloaded 1D shutter counts from the web its says 19,206 actuations.

Just had a phone call from Canon and they say it has done 140,000 actuations.

Now I am not going to call Canon a liar but it seems I have been stitched up good and proper by the shop I bought it from.


Possibly I am getting confused, but this is a very confusing post if that is the case!!!

[admirable]

Sorry, you may be right but that was the OP and this thread was started last year, it has recently moved on to another poster/camera and it was this 2nd situation I thought you were refering to.

[Canon User]

Why? All Canon are effectively saying is it has not failed in its first 200,000 actuations, nowhere does it say it should last that long again :bang:

How many cameras have canon tested the shutters on 1,2,3,4,5 I'm sure if they make a claim that it was tested up to 200,000 they tested quite a number so why should they or almost all live up to this number.

[Uneducated_Rick]

How many cameras have canon tested the shutters on 1,2,3,4,5 I'm sure if they make a claim that it was tested up to 200,000 they tested quite a number so why should they or almost all live up to this number.

How many times do I need to say this?

The 200,000 is not a target, it is not something to "live up to". All Canon say is every shutter that goes into a camera and is sold has successfully fired 200,000 times without them failing, there is no indication how many fail during this testing and never make it to being sold.

For all we know there are 3 failures for every successful shutter hence the significantly higher price for full frame cameras.

[it's alive]

How many times do I need to say this?

The 200,000 is not a target, it is not something to "live up to". All Canon say is every shutter that goes into a camera and is sold has successfully fired 200,000 times without them failing, there is no indication how many fail during this testing and never make it to being sold.



Do you know this to be true? From a QA perspective it's insane. I suspect that you're misreading the information.

Having read the Canon blurb I interpret it to mean that the mechanism has been tested and typically achieves 200k+ as a life-cycle test. Just as car seatbelt mechanisms are stated to last for 100k+ cycles but are not individually tested (each production batch will have a number tested to failure).

Do you not think it ridiculous for Canon to a) spend ages putting components through 200k cycles before use and b) to install components that had already been worn substantially and are therefore more likely to fail mechanically in the near future?

As has been stated by other posters, the 200k figure has most likely been derived from a series of tests conducted whilst proving the shutter mechanism design. From my experience of life-cycle testing it is likely that this is a figure that is reasonably likely to be attained.

On that basis I'd be agrieved if I had a camera fail at 10% of the expected life.

If Canon did put every shutter through 200k cycles I'd expect that the higher end bodies would fail sooner due to the excessive wear put on them in manufacture! :lol:

[Uneducated_Rick]

Do you know this to be true? From a QA perspective it's insane. I suspect that you're misreading the information.

Having read the Canon blurb I interpret it to mean that the mechanism has been tested and typically achieves 200k+ as a life-cycle test. Just as car seatbelt mechanisms are stated to last for 100k+ cycles but are not individually tested (each production batch will have a number tested to failure).

Quoted from the Canon EOS 1D MkII N White Paper which StewartR linked and I've already quoted:

"The shutter is tested for 200,000 cycles"

Sounds like they test each one for 200,000 cycles to me.



Do you not think it ridiculous for Canon to a) spend ages putting components through 200k cycles before use and b) to install components that had already been worn substantially and are therefore more likely to fail mechanically in the near future?

Only as ridiculous as IKEA using a matress roller press thing to compress a mattress 250,000 times to ensure the springs are good enough.



As has been stated by other posters, the 200k figure has most likely been derived from a series of tests conducted whilst proving the shutter mechanism design. From my experience of life-cycle testing it is likely that this is a figure that is reasonably likely to be attained.

The 200,000 figure comes from the quote above. I have yet to find anything from Canon saying that the shutter is expected to last for 200,000 actuations, and even if they did just because it is expected to last that long there is certainly nothing that says what will happen if it fails before then.

[it's alive]

Quoted from the Canon EOS 1D MkII N White Paper which StewartR linked and I've already quoted:

"The shutter is tested for 200,000 cycles"

Sounds like they test each one for 200,000 cycles to me.

What they mean is that the shutter design is tested to 200,000 cycles. This test is destructive to the shutter. What actually happens is that they cycle a number of shutters to destruction and then state a statistically viable expected life-cycle.

I understand how you can make the assumption that you have, but I'm afraid that you're incorrect in this case.





Only as ridiculous as IKEA using a matress roller press thing to compress a mattress 250,000 times to ensure the springs are good enough.

Indeed. If you were to take a matress from the shelf and examine it you would find no sign of any wear. The Ikea testing is conducted as I suggest above. I actually know this for a fact (the same goes for the seatbelt testing), I work in this area of industry.

Think about how many matresses IKEA sells and how long it would take to test each one to 250,000 cycles? How many machines would IKEA have to have in order to keep up with demand? Where are they all? How could they possibly maintain prices low? But more to the point, why would they sell matresses that had been tested almost to the point of destruction when they could sell matresses untested that lasted many years longer??

The same goes for Canon shutters.


The 200,000 figure comes from the quote above. I have yet to find anything from Canon saying that the shutter is expected to last for 200,000 actuations, and even if they did just because it is expected to last that long there is certainly nothing that says what will happen if it fails before then.

I really hope you're having me on here. Do you really believe that Canon cycle the top end shutters 200k times before sale? Most shutters are expected to last a fraction of that time. How much overspecification would be required in every part to give a reasonable life?

I suppose it would explain why the higher end bodies are so ruddy expensive :lol:

If you still stick to your guns after this I'll agree to differ. But, seriously, think about the practicality of the manufacturers doing what you suggest. From that perspective alone it's impossible.

[Canon User]

How many times do I need to say this?

All Canon say is every shutter that goes into a camera and is sold has successfully fired 200,000 times without them failing significantly.

So canon are fitting used shutters in new cameras well that's what I'm taking from you're above statement!

[pearce_jj]

either way I think a 10fps camera failing at 20k would not be what "a reasonable person" would have expected when buying it.

[malla1962]

So canon are fitting used shutters in new cameras well that's what I'm taking from you're above statement! I do not believe they do.

[Uneducated_Rick]

Final rebuttal:

If Canon test the shutter design is tested to 200,000 cycles (as it's alive says), and Canon only fit brand new shutters to bodies for sale (as per Canon User and malla1962) then there would be some cameras that fail on their first hundred actuations or that don't work at all - has anyone ever heard of one of these?

I don't believe that Canon would not test each shutter as there would be some, albeit a very small proportion, that would have defects and not work

P.S. "IKEA beds are vigorously tested with 30,000 'doinks' before entering the store", taken from http://www.ikeasouthamptonstore.co.uk/whats_the_question_promo/index.php?comp=2 even if that's not the number they test the design too (I'm sure I remember a number over 250,000) all mattresses get some kind of destructive testing