My struggle with the 50D

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mikeyb

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Hi,

this is a reply that I made on another Forums regarding how I eventually got to the picture that I had posted that finally made me believe in the 50D as a great camera. I know CT had posted earlier about he had to rethink a bit of his handling of the 50D ( we had PM'd back and forth when I was making my mind up about selling my Mark II and buying the 50 ) and I had mentioned to him that I had read that sRAW1 was the way to go with higher ISO's with it's pixel binning method, well that was until we found out about the ALO and HTP settings (y)

Here is my saga......

I have struggled for ages with the 50D, a combination of the small sensor alongside 15mp was always going to be a problem if cropping tightly, and for the first few months of ownership I have often wondered if I had done the right thing in selling the Mark II in order to fund the 50D, and believe me even right up until I produced the Bluetit shots ( click to see it in the Bird section ) it was living on borrowed time.

I normally use Lightroom for PP work as its straight forward to use as I can't get to grips with Photoshop or Paintshop ( a mix of laziness and stupidity I think ), 30 - 60 secs in Lightroom and bang, that's it, done.

However, this didn't work for the 50D, I just couldn't get the pics to look sharp at all, I tried everything, in camera settings, new pp methods, different ISO's, RAW ( which I use exclusively anyway), sRAW1, Jpeg, the list goes on, and having looked back at my 30D and Mark II pics I thought, hell let's just sell the bloody thing and be done with it, but I am not one to give up especially if I think I can beat something.

The one thing that kept telling to keep the 50D was the fact that the power of the 1.6 sensor coupled with the 15mp was able to pull in shots that would have been binned on any other body, I could take shots from further away and still retain fantastic detail, shots looked tremendous on the lcd best I've seen on an camera, but could I get the shots to look the same once PP'd, could I heck! That as what was so frustrating, I knew I was taking great pics but just couldn't get them to process to the same effect on the pc, so I knew the camera was fine it was just me not getting it right. I had to look at my workflow again, originally it was this:

1. Upload to PC via Canon EOS Utility
2. Import into Lightroom 2.0
3. Edit in Lightoom ( usually a bit of exposure adj, black levels, sharpness etc )
4. Run in Neat Image if necessary for NR
5. Frame with Framefun
6. Upload to Smug

Simple really, all done in under 10 minutes per photo from start to finish.

I scoured the net for info on the best method of converting the RAW files and processing the results and after weeks for digging around it seemed to be that Digital Photo Professional was the way to go, I had it installed but had never used it, so once updated to be able to read the 50D RAW files I tried it, made no bloody difference whatsoever But as mentioned before I never give up easily and decided to bite the bullet and try Photoshop AND Paintshop and downloaded trail versions of both, jeez they are soooo complicated compared to Lightroom, still didn't seem to help, probably the main reason was that I didn't know A; what the root of the problem was and B: in not knowing this I just didn't know what to do to correct it.

Then one day last week, the day I took the Bluetit photo actually, I had a thought ( yeah dangerous I know ), I wonder if it has anything to do with my 'in camera' settings, so back to the camera menu I went and changed it all again to pretty much default settings, I also had a go at Micro Adjusting the AF on my Canon 400mm F5.6L lens, which I knew was fairly spot on anyway and plus this wasn't the real problem but I actually set it to +5 just by eye and it does seem to have been sharper since so I have left it at that. I also set the camera to Neutral for Picture Style, somewhere along the way I had it set to Standard which basically gives you an in camera sharpness setting of +3, I had really only set it to that so that the image on the LCD gave me a good approximation of what the final image would look like, and right enough they had looked brilliant, now I was under the impression that even shooting RAW images that all you saw on the LCD was a jpeg conversion of the file with settings in place, right? and that the RAW image itself was going to come out with no settings on it whatsoever and that you would then adjust these out of camera so to speak, Wrong ! The Picture Style setting is embedded in the RAW file too, arrghhh what a diddy, I never knew this, no wonder my images looked crap and noisy, I was adding sharpening 'in camera' AND via Lightroom too therefore overdoing it

What an idiot I thought, let's go back to DPP and try again, ok I imported the shots I took of the Bluetit that day with the following 'in camera' settings:

200 ISO
Daylight AWB
AI Servo
Centre Point AF
Normal Speed Multi Shot
Neutral Picture Style ie: 0 - 0 - 0 - 0

I then adjust the sharpness within DPP to Standard which is +3, a quick check on AWB, and a bit of added Sharpening via the slider to 180 and Saturation to 114 and nothing else. I then converted to Jpeg ( mainly because I couldn't get PSP to read Tiff's ) and imported it into Paintshop Pro and added a little contrast using its own auto setting, then it was onto Neat Image to check Noise of which there was virtually none, woo hoo that was a first for me, I did some anyway on 'default' setting just to really make the background shine a bit and then framed the image within Framefun, the result is the image seen above

My Workflow will now be along these lines:

1. Import Via EOS Utility
2. Process in DPP
3. Adjust in PSP or Lightroom ( doesn't seem to matter as images could be used straight from DPP )
4. Neat Image
5. Frame
6. Upload to Smug

Sorry it has been so long winded a reply but I wanted to give an idea as to the frustration this camera has given me, which at the time was always outweighed by the the pleasure of seeing the images on the LCD, I just ended up being so deflated when I had processed them, I believe this body to be one of the best for wildlife on a reasonable budget and the only way to improve on it would be the same camera in a 1D series body with the 1d AF system, not that the AF on this is a slouch, just wish it had the 45 AF points of the Mark III etc, other than that, it just might be the best wildlife body Canon has so far produced, and by that I mean......

1. The amount of detail picked up is superb
2. Because of 1 you can use images taken at a much greater distance
3. It's a lot lighter than a Pro Series body
4. The AF is their fastest yet on a non Pro series body
5. The 1.6x Factor

Thanks for reading and I hope I haven't bored you I suppose the moral here is don't give up

Mike.
 
good report
thanks for taking the time

I've always been a believer in setting the camera to do nothing clever
and PP on the PC - phew - looks like I might be right!

ta v much! :clap:
 
Whew!! I was quite relieved at the end Mike - at the outset I thought you were working up to binning the 50D. :D

Well I'm glad you've got it sorted mate, I know how frustrating these problems can be.

I can only re-iterate what I've said all along, the 50D is the best camera out there for me at this moment in time without a doubt - I'm chuffed to little mothballs with it - it's resolving fine detail in birds shots which I just couldn't get otherwise, and quite markedly increasing my effective shooting range too.

It's true what you say - the Picture Style settings do appear to be embedded in the RAW files with DPP along with any sharpening in that setting, so it's something you need to be aware of.

I started using DPP rather reluctantly after all support for Raw Shooter Premium finished, but now I wouldn't want to use anything else -I think it prodiuces great 'out of the tin' Canon RAW files with the minimum of processing needed.
 
I've always imported images straight into lightroom from the camera. Will it really make any difference using EOS utility et al?
 
CraigDouglas said:
I've always imported images straight into lightroom from the camera. Will it really make any difference using EOS utility et al?
Click to expand...

Give it a try Craig and see what you think. I couldn't get on with Lightroom and you'll find that in comparison DPP seems a pretty simple package lacking a lot of the glitz and bells and whistles, but I'd say it's just as complex as it needs to be.

It's personal preference in the end though no doubt.
 
mikeyb said:
Hi,

The one thing that kept telling to keep the 50D was the fact that the power of the 1.6 sensor coupled with the 15mp was able to pull in shots that would have been binned on any other body....

Mike.
Click to expand...

A good example is this shot...

This shot was at a hell of a range at 700mm and 800 ISO. I normally just wouldn't bother with a bird of this size at that distance, but the nesting material made the shot so appealing.

Full frame shot..

3406937212_d068c2003f_o.jpg


And the cropped version...

3395465576_52c9b6d469_o.jpg


The full size TIFF file was 43mb, but even cropped down to the smaller version, the file was still 6.5mb and still resolving some decent detail. I'm not claiming it to be a fantastic shot, in fact it's just on the limit ol being barely acceptable, but it is still resolving a remarkable amount of detail at that distance.
 
If thats on the limit of barely acceptable I may as well give up with birdies!!!!!
 
susie said:
If thats on the limit of barely acceptable I may as well give up with birdies!!!!!
Click to expand...
Don't get disheartened Susie. When I say "barely acceptable" I mean at 800 pixels it's OK for web viewing, but it's a massive crop by any standards, so you wouldn't expect to get a decent sized quality print from it.

EDIT.

The catch is the size of the files from the 50D is using up a lot of hard drive real estate, so I'm gonna be needing some mega storage space before long.
 
Interesting write up - thanks

With my 50D I import straight into Lightroom using a card reader, because usually I've gone over 1 or 2 CF cards, or I found it quicker to import.

Not only the disk space requirements go up CT, but the need for larger CF cards. I've gone from 280 shots on a 4Gb card on a 40D to 180 shots on the 50D.

The crop factor is a real winner for me and allows me to try things I haven't before, like shooting birds. My kingfisher shot is a good example.

I ran the microAF adjustment and my 24-105 was spot on, as was the 10-22. My 70-200 needed +5 and the 100-400 +3. Not sure if it's sharpened anything up :D
 
Glad you're finding the best from it Mike. Missed the Blue Tit before, it's a corker.

I've starting using 16Gb cards in my 1DsII now. And yes, I've filled on in a day before!

With 2x40D and 1DsII and a 1DII generating pictures in this house, the 2Tb network storage box is earning its keep!

Paul
 
Great report Mikey, I did read up about the micro adjusments but will stay away from that at the mo:D I am sure this will help me no end as I have just taken charge of a 50D, your advice will be my starting point so to speak. Well it just leaves me to say a big thanks for your time and effort.(y)(y)(y)

THANKS
 
Interesting read, I'm glad you have managed to solve the problem and thanks for sharing your solution :)
 
I have a thecus - equally pricey but worth every penny. 4 x 1Tb disks in a raid 5 partition. All it needs is power and a network connection (ok it's a usb box as well) and it's managed via a web interface.
 
I thought that with RAW files, the picture style is embedded with the data, but not applied until conversion? Can you not just de-select standard and re-select neutral from within DPP?
Or are you saying that the camera is also PP'ing raw files?
Testing here (admittedly, only a 400D) I can select monochrome or neutral for a shot, and convert to either (from either) within DPP after the fact as well.
 
Mike, that makes a really interesting read for someone who has always been just a little pee'd that the LCD pic is much better than when it comes out the camera (y) I have taken shots that I have been really pleased with on the LCD and then felt really deflated once loaded onto the PC.

I will change my pic settings to neutral - slowly I am using DPP more to achieve better WB etc as it's needed. I have learnt the benefits of shooting in RAW. Thanks to CT I have minimised that noise stuff so regularly shoot at 800 ISO without a care in the world.

I am pleased with this camera and what it can produce - Just a shame about the numpty behind it :LOL:
 
mikeyb said:
Hi,

this is a reply that I made on another Forums regarding how I eventually got to the picture that I had posted that finally made me believe in the 50D as a great camera. I know CT had posted earlier about he had to rethink a bit of his handling of the 50D ( we had PM'd back and forth when I was making my mind up about selling my Mark II and buying the 50 ) and I had mentioned to him that I had read that sRAW1 was the way to go with higher ISO's with it's pixel binning method, well that was until we found out about the ALO and HTP settings (y)

Here is my saga......

I have struggled for ages with the 50D, a combination of the small sensor alongside 15mp was always going to be a problem if cropping tightly, and for the first few months of ownership I have often wondered if I had done the right thing in selling the Mark II in order to fund the 50D, and believe me even right up until I produced the Bluetit shots ( click to see it in the Bird section ) it was living on borrowed time.

I normally use Lightroom for PP work as its straight forward to use as I can't get to grips with Photoshop or Paintshop ( a mix of laziness and stupidity I think ), 30 - 60 secs in Lightroom and bang, that's it, done.

However, this didn't work for the 50D, I just couldn't get the pics to look sharp at all, I tried everything, in camera settings, new pp methods, different ISO's, RAW ( which I use exclusively anyway), sRAW1, Jpeg, the list goes on, and having looked back at my 30D and Mark II pics I thought, hell let's just sell the bloody thing and be done with it, but I am not one to give up especially if I think I can beat something.

The one thing that kept telling to keep the 50D was the fact that the power of the 1.6 sensor coupled with the 15mp was able to pull in shots that would have been binned on any other body, I could take shots from further away and still retain fantastic detail, shots looked tremendous on the lcd best I've seen on an camera, but could I get the shots to look the same once PP'd, could I heck! That as what was so frustrating, I knew I was taking great pics but just couldn't get them to process to the same effect on the pc, so I knew the camera was fine it was just me not getting it right. I had to look at my workflow again, originally it was this:

1. Upload to PC via Canon EOS Utility
2. Import into Lightroom 2.0
3. Edit in Lightoom ( usually a bit of exposure adj, black levels, sharpness etc )
4. Run in Neat Image if necessary for NR
5. Frame with Framefun
6. Upload to Smug

Simple really, all done in under 10 minutes per photo from start to finish.

I scoured the net for info on the best method of converting the RAW files and processing the results and after weeks for digging around it seemed to be that Digital Photo Professional was the way to go, I had it installed but had never used it, so once updated to be able to read the 50D RAW files I tried it, made no bloody difference whatsoever But as mentioned before I never give up easily and decided to bite the bullet and try Photoshop AND Paintshop and downloaded trail versions of both, jeez they are soooo complicated compared to Lightroom, still didn't seem to help, probably the main reason was that I didn't know A; what the root of the problem was and B: in not knowing this I just didn't know what to do to correct it.

Then one day last week, the day I took the Bluetit photo actually, I had a thought ( yeah dangerous I know ), I wonder if it has anything to do with my 'in camera' settings, so back to the camera menu I went and changed it all again to pretty much default settings, I also had a go at Micro Adjusting the AF on my Canon 400mm F5.6L lens, which I knew was fairly spot on anyway and plus this wasn't the real problem but I actually set it to +5 just by eye and it does seem to have been sharper since so I have left it at that. I also set the camera to Neutral for Picture Style, somewhere along the way I had it set to Standard which basically gives you an in camera sharpness setting of +3, I had really only set it to that so that the image on the LCD gave me a good approximation of what the final image would look like, and right enough they had looked brilliant, now I was under the impression that even shooting RAW images that all you saw on the LCD was a jpeg conversion of the file with settings in place, right? and that the RAW image itself was going to come out with no settings on it whatsoever and that you would then adjust these out of camera so to speak, Wrong ! The Picture Style setting is embedded in the RAW file too, arrghhh what a diddy, I never knew this, no wonder my images looked crap and noisy, I was adding sharpening 'in camera' AND via Lightroom too therefore overdoing it

What an idiot I thought, let's go back to DPP and try again, ok I imported the shots I took of the Bluetit that day with the following 'in camera' settings:

200 ISO
Daylight AWB
AI Servo
Centre Point AF
Normal Speed Multi Shot
Neutral Picture Style ie: 0 - 0 - 0 - 0

I then adjust the sharpness within DPP to Standard which is +3, a quick check on AWB, and a bit of added Sharpening via the slider to 180 and Saturation to 114 and nothing else. I then converted to Jpeg ( mainly because I couldn't get PSP to read Tiff's ) and imported it into Paintshop Pro and added a little contrast using its own auto setting, then it was onto Neat Image to check Noise of which there was virtually none, woo hoo that was a first for me, I did some anyway on 'default' setting just to really make the background shine a bit and then framed the image within Framefun, the result is the image seen above

My Workflow will now be along these lines:

1. Import Via EOS Utility
2. Process in DPP
3. Adjust in PSP or Lightroom ( doesn't seem to matter as images could be used straight from DPP )
4. Neat Image
5. Frame
6. Upload to Smug

Sorry it has been so long winded a reply but I wanted to give an idea as to the frustration this camera has given me, which at the time was always outweighed by the the pleasure of seeing the images on the LCD, I just ended up being so deflated when I had processed them, I believe this body to be one of the best for wildlife on a reasonable budget and the only way to improve on it would be the same camera in a 1D series body with the 1d AF system, not that the AF on this is a slouch, just wish it had the 45 AF points of the Mark III etc, other than that, it just might be the best wildlife body Canon has so far produced, and by that I mean......

1. The amount of detail picked up is superb
2. Because of 1 you can use images taken at a much greater distance
3. It's a lot lighter than a Pro Series body
4. The AF is their fastest yet on a non Pro series body
5. The 1.6x Factor

Thanks for reading and I hope I haven't bored you I suppose the moral here is don't give up

Mike.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the report Mike
You have just described what I am going through at the moment :bang::bang::bang:
and have saved me pulling my hair out :woot::woot:
I will give it ago tomorrow
 
Hi,

thanks to all who have replied, and CT you don't know how close it came to being sold, or along with the PC out through the window was another option I had considered :D

I hope some of you will be able to get more out of your 50D by reading my experiences with it and the best advice I can give is persevere, no doubt it's a great machine, it just needs that little bit more work to get it right, but when it does .....WOW!

My next test will be BIF ( Birds in Flight ) as this was something my Mark II and Sigma 500mm combo wasn't very good at, the lens' fault more than anything, I think although it had an HSM motor it just wasn't quick enough, the 400mm F5.6 L lens I have now should be much better, and now with the Ospreys being back I will be out trying to improve on the shots I took last year and the year before.

Mike.

PS: remember and take time to read CT's thread HERE about switching off ALO and HTP as this is a real benefit.


.
 
Would someone mind navigating me through on my 50D to check the optomizer setting please?

Thanks :D
 
u8myufo said:
Would someone mind navigating me through on my 50D to check the optomizer setting please?

Thanks :D
Click to expand...

Hi,

no problem ( in av or tv mode ie: not one of the preset modes ) go to: MENU/then scroll along to copper coloured CAMERA setting that lists the custom functions select C.Fn II : IMAGE, scroll along to No. 3 and set HIGHLIGHT TONE PRIORITY to DISABLE, then go to No. 4 and then set AUTO LIGHTING OPTIMIZER to DISABLE.

Those are both the settings that CT mentione din his thread.

Hope it helps,

Mike.
 
coldpenguin said:
I thought that with RAW files, the picture style is embedded with the data, but not applied until conversion? Can you not just de-select standard and re-select neutral from within DPP?
Or are you saying that the camera is also PP'ing raw files?
Testing here (admittedly, only a 400D) I can select monochrome or neutral for a shot, and convert to either (from either) within DPP after the fact as well.
Click to expand...
That's exactly right actually - you can change to any picture setting within DPP. It's only a potential problem if you don't realise that any sharpening associated with that style is also applied initially and you're under the impression that none is applied to the RAW file at this stage.

I'm not exactly seeing the problem I must admit, but then I don't have any standard sharpening procedure or batch processing system - I always sharpen images individually on their merits.
 
CT said:
That's exactly right actually - you can change to any picture setting within DPP. It's only a potential problem if you don't realise that any sharpening associated with that style is also applied initially and you're under the impression that none is applied to the RAW file at this stage.

I'm not exactly seeing the problem I must admit, but then I don't have any standard sharpening procedure or batch processing system - I always sharpen images individually on their merits.
Click to expand...
Hi CT,

exactly right, it was only causing me a problem as I didn't realise it was embedded and I only found out when I started using DPP (y)

Mike.
 
Ah right Mike - so it was still embedded with other software????
 
CT said:
Ah right Mike - so it was still embedded with other software????
Click to expand...
Hi C,

Well I think that was what was happening, ( probably be proved wrong and can't be bothered to check just now ;) ) certainly in Lightroom my images looked so noisy due to the sharpening when I added it that I can only assume that the 'standard' setting was embedded, I ended up just leaving the sharpness slider alone or just trying the presets I had downloaded but that still made them look crap, although Lightroom has a way of making images look grainy and noisy anyway, but once exported into say Neat Image they looked a lot cleaner.

My dad has noticed the same with Picasa 3 that he uses as images now look over-sharpened if he adds some more in Picasa.

Mike.
 
Well that would explain it. I thought the picture settings were only recognized by DPP software but your experiences seem to indicate otherwise. Something to be aware of anyway Mike. (y)
 
mikeyb said:
Hi,

no problem ( in av or tv mode ie: not one of the preset modes ) go to: MENU/then scroll along to copper coloured CAMERA setting that lists the custom functions select C.Fn II : IMAGE, scroll along to No. 3 and set HIGHLIGHT TONE PRIORITY to DISABLE, then go to No. 4 and then set AUTO LIGHTING OPTIMIZER to DISABLE.

Those are both the settings that CT mentione din his thread.

Hope it helps,

Mike.
Click to expand...

Thank you Mike(y)
 
Must admit I was a bit apprehensive on reading the op at first, thinking I should have kept the 40D, but I soon realised I was not alone in thinking something was not quite right but due to my limited technical knowledge I was not bold enough to post my own findings.

I have already followed CT's advice and after reading mikeyb's solution I have installed DPP, Utilities etc.

However, I have been unable to try it out because on opening EOS Utilities the only option I have is "Monitor folder" all the rest is greyed out so unless there is a simple solution which I will understand I will just have to drag my son over to sort it for me.
 
Well, without being there Galaxy, I would have to ask the question, was the camera plugged in, turned on, at the time? (and no offence intended)
That is what mine does when the camera falls asleep.
If it is on and working, then I think the drivers might need to be re-installed
 
coldpenguin said:
Well, without being there Galaxy, I would have to ask the question, was the camera plugged in, turned on, at the time? (and no offence intended)
That is what mine does when the camera falls asleep.
If it is on and working, then I think the drivers might need to be re-installed
Click to expand...

No offence taken, sometimes it is easy to miss the bleeding obvious until it is pointed out to you:).

I followed the instructions and as far as I am aware, if you are referring to the installation, the camera does not need to be plugged in at the same time. If you are referring to the uploading of the images I use a card reader.

If it is a driver issue said son will have to sort it for me, when that will be is another issue:D.
 
Well while I have a 40D some of the above is still very relevent. I've been dissapointed with some of the files of late and hey presto! picture style with in camera sharpening is present.

Now I just need to find my DPP disk to see if that works better than Capture One Pro
 
@Galaxy
The EOS utility will only show monitor folder unless the camera is plugged in (on the main screen). For modifying the picture style embedded in the raw, you need to either click Accessories, then Picture style, or load Digital Photo Professional (another utility from Canon).

@Mikeyb
Your photos make me jealous, what lens were you using at the time?
 
Mitch (madmitch) has given me the headsup on a new version of DPP - Version 3.6.0.0, which I'm just downloading. It's supposed to have some useful improvements - I'll let you know.
 
coldpenguin said:
@Galaxy
The EOS utility will only show monitor folder unless the camera is plugged in (on the main screen). For modifying the picture style embedded in the raw, you need to either click Accessories, then Picture style, or load Digital Photo Professional (another utility from Canon).
Click to expand...

Many thanks for your Pm also (y)
 
Version 3.6.0.0 is intalled - it just overwrites the existing version. The only obvious thing I'm noticing different is adjustment for highlight and shadows under RAW contrast adjustment which could be useful. I don't think that was there before? (In fact it wasn't - I just checked the old version on the other PC.)

Other than that it seems snappy and responsive enough.
 
CT said:
Version 3.6.0.0 is intalled - it just overwrites the existing version. The only obvious thing I'm noticing different is adjustment for highlight and shadows under RAW contrast adjustment which could be useful. I don't think that was there before? (In fact it wasn't - I just checked the old version on the other PC.)

Other than that it seems snappy and responsive enough.
Click to expand...

I can only find DPP version 3.5.2 :shrug:
 
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