Photography Copyright Infringement

da8iwr · 30-05-2009, 13:01

I have just found that one of my images has been used by one of the largest, oldest and most well respected universities in England as their header image without my permission or even contacting me.

It says at the bottom copyright 2006, so i would imagine it has been there for almost 3yrs.

Does anybody know what the next process is for me, as i know Getty are famous for suing people for using their images without permission.

Many thanks
Ian

PS it is definitely my image, it is very unique and almost impossible to take twice.

namllihs · 30-05-2009, 13:20

If you are 100% sure it's your image, find out if there are other instances of the images use i.e. web pages, posters etc also what time period it has been used over. Collect copies of each of these uses as evidence. Work out what you would have charged if permission was sought and add on a bonus. Contact the University and open a dialogue with a view to being recompensed to your satisfaction.

Uneducated_Rick · 30-05-2009, 13:42

Where did you host the images for them to be taken from? Have they been entered into any competitions?

I'd ensure that wherever you hosted them retains copyright as some competitions sign it over in the T&Cs of entering

awp · 30-05-2009, 14:06

I'd do as much work as possible to find the extent of the use - then bill them whatever your normal fee would be x 2. I've done this many times - to some big organisations - incl a government ministry - and they always pay up - they cannot afford not to and for it to go to court - they know they are in the wrong. Good luck.

da8iwr · 30-05-2009, 14:18 **Thread Starter**

Hi guys, yerp I'm 100% sure its mine, without any doubt. It is a long exposure stitched panorama taken in the rain at about 5am in the morning, so it has puddles and light streaks from cars that make a unique finger print.

I don't think it is hosted on any galleries or competition sites, apart from my own servers (i own a web design company).

I know what is wrote in lots of T&Cs on sites, but i find it very difficult to believe that if for example somebody uploaded an image, the T&Cs would allow it to be redistributed freely and go above centuries old Intellectual Property Laws, especially as their is no signatures involved, just some little tick box.

For example the myspace T&Cs says on 6.1
http://www1.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=misc.terms

Quote:

By displaying or publishing ("posting") any Content on or through the MySpace Services, you hereby grant to MySpace.com a limited license to use, modify, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Content solely on and through the MySpace Services.

They then justify this directly below

Quote:

Without this license, MySpace.com would be unable to provide the MySpace Services. For example, without the right to modify Member Content, MySpace.com would not be able to digitally compress music files that Members submit or otherwise format Content to satisfy technical requirements, and without the right to publicly perform Member Content, MySpace.com could not allow Users to listen to music posted by Members.

Which is a very fair point

But as myspace is owned by the same owners as Sky TV, in theory they can use it on any advert they wish to promote them selves.

But that has never happened yet, as i don't think they would want to have a landmark court case against them. For if they loose, it would be devastating to their T&Cs and how they show and modify media files at the moment.

How much is a fair cost to charge this uni, as i know Getty charge usually about £1500 plus VAT for infringement on even 40x40 pixel size web images.

awp · 30-05-2009, 14:22

If the image has only been used on a web site then the Alamy calculator comes up with a fee of £815 for three years use. So I'd double that for illegal use.

photon · 30-05-2009, 14:22

With the Developer Tools in the Opera web-browser you can display when the file was uploaded and take a screenshot as part of your evidence. You can do the same with Wget, but without the graphics.

da8iwr · 30-05-2009, 14:36 **Thread Starter**

I have just found a random panorama on Getty to see what they would charge, and to display in

all territories (just uk and usa shows same price)
for web banner upto 728 x 90 use
over 2yrs
Web Corporate and promotional use
Education industry
on repeated pages

it comes up with £1320.
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/85861604/Riser

Whoohooo

da8iwr · 30-05-2009, 14:43 **Thread Starter**

Ahh just found acording to my firefox plugin thingy, that it was last modified 5th March 2007.

awp · 30-05-2009, 15:14

The Alamy fee was for a 1/4 screen size - so maybe should be more.....less my 10% for the advice of course.

MisterE · 30-05-2009, 18:38

You can also approach them, say you want to use the image for a similar purpose and what would it cost to licence it from them. Then tell them it's yours, double their fee and then some. Or use the Alamy figure, whichever is higher.

da8iwr · 31-05-2009, 16:35 **Thread Starter**

I think for this purpose, the Getty fee is higher, so ill use theirs as it is still at the end of the day a real genuine commercial price, even if it is high. So its not like I'm picking a number out of the air and sending them it.

The letter i have sent them shows where i have got the prices from and my commercial experience in photography.

Ill let you know when i hear what i happening.

TomWoozle · 31-05-2009, 16:54

Best of luck. Hope this works out for you.

awp · 31-05-2009, 17:02

Look forward to hearing what I hope will be a successful outcome.

Kryptix · 31-05-2009, 17:21

Can we see the image/site?

da8iwr · 31-05-2009, 17:34 **Thread Starter**

Quote:

Originally Posted by awp

Look forward to hearing what I hope will be a successful outcome.

Thank you very much, ill keep you informed with what happens, as im sure there will be other people in the future with the same problems and would be interested to see how it was rectified.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kryptix

Can we see the image/site?

I cant show you the exact one, as i dont know if im legally allowed to say that somebody has stolen things in a public domain, even if they have or havent.

But...
This was taken in the same area and is a very close sort of idea of it
http://www.quicktimevirtualreality.com/bridge/

The image they took though, was taken specifically to be used in calendars and promotional uses.

Ohh also, just to help things along, it is noted in my letters and invoices to them that if they dont pay the invoice within 7 days, they will be subject to the late payment legislation, which i use on all my invoices anyway.
http://www.payontime.co.uk/legislati...tion_main.html

awp · 31-05-2009, 17:54

I think you'll be struggling to get money in 7 days - even 30 days from an organisation like this especially where you invoice doesn't have an order number on it - for obvious reasons. Last time I had a big one like this it took four months - but I got it in the end which what counted.

I'm so glad you are pursuing this as it's a major problem - in the last couple of years I've had the same sort of thing from a government ministry - a quango and an MP! Plus a few smaller ones - they all paid in the end - so I'm optimistic about your outcome - they will know they are in the wrong when confronted.

Redpaul · 31-05-2009, 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by awp

I've had the same sort of thing from a government ministry - a quango and an MP!

Bet the MP claimed it back in expenses

Paul

tontoshorse · 31-05-2009, 18:12

This happened to me a couple of months back when Newcastle Universitiy used a thumbnail of mine (via Flickr!). I copied the offending page and sent an email pointing out their infringment of my copyright.

The money I requested was for damages - not for the use of the picture. As they were "banged to rights" there was no option. After taking advice they requested an invoice which I provided, detailing the costs were NOT for the use (or future use) of my picture. They BT'd the money within 7 days of agreement.

Turning the knfe a little I did inform them that had they of asked, they could have used the picture for free.

The process, once they knew of their error was handled very well.

Good luck - just be firm and polite!

da8iwr · 31-05-2009, 18:13 **Thread Starter**

My Fiance is head of sub-department within a different University finance department and I know how bad they are at paying any bills especially as you said with no order numbers.

But to be honest, my concern is not about how thier internal paper work system goes, hopefully this will make them look through their website with a fine tooth comb and find any other potential areas of copyright material and remove it. Or they may contact the photographers, and ask them, do you mind if we pay you to use it, and put a little bit of money into this industry.

Its great to hear others having had the same problems and positive outcomes, hopefully there will be another one here.

da8iwr · 31-05-2009, 18:24 **Thread Starter**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redpaul

Bet the MP claimed it back in expenses
Paul

It would be very interesting if that could be traced, send the telegraph a date and a little info about that, i expect they would even pay for that kind of info to bring it out to the public.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tontoshorse

Turning the knife a little I did inform them that had they of asked, they could have used the picture for free.

I have said exactly the same thing, as for example i have a video on YouTube, that has been used LOADs of times by north east universities and local TV/News bits for free.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q54VKT_mZfI
As well as a few other clips i have that are not online.

Marcel · 31-05-2009, 18:35

If they try and deny or contest that the image is yours. Just tell them to look at the filename

Jimmy_Lemon · 31-05-2009, 18:37

Best of luck - after a bit of work I just found the site (the internet is a powerful tool) and, as Marcel just pointed out to me, check out the file name of the image they are using, there is no way they can explain that one too easily!

EDIT - Damn it marcel - type slower

sprint95m · 31-05-2009, 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by da8iwr

I have just found that one of my images has been used by one of the largest, oldest and most well respected universities in England as their header image without my permission or even contacting me.

Good luck, Ian.

You have my sympathy, especially so, as I have lost a small fortune from similar unauthorised use of my photographs.

awp · 31-05-2009, 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by da8iwr

It would be very interesting if that could be traced, send the telegraph a date and a little info about that, i expect they would even pay for that kind of info to bring it out to the public.

the irony was - he was a member of the government who introduced the 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act - giving photographers copyright in their own works! LOL

awp · 31-05-2009, 19:58

I hadn't noticed the file name - get a screen grab of that - I think that nails it!!

Kryptix · 31-05-2009, 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprint95m

Good luck, Ian.

You have my sympathy, especially so, as I have lost a small fortune from similar unauthorised use of my photographs.

Lost? How so?

Obviously they wasn't prepared to pay for it, so they would never have bought it anyway. If they didn't use your image they'd just move along and use another image from another photographer.

In all honesty, when I was 16-18 I knew no better and used to search Google for cool images to use on websites I created. As I said to the OP in PM, the site was probably made by a student who also knew no better and thought it'd cause no hassle from doing so.

You never know, someone may have copied your image, uploaded it to a free image directory and then he got it from there. Doesn't make it right, but it does mean he wasn't to know.

Lensflare · 01-06-2009, 02:18

Ignorance of the law is no defence, in law.

Uneducated_Rick · 01-06-2009, 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lensflare

Ignorance of the law is no defence, in law.

Except for secuity officers 'confiscating' camera equipment - there is a clause allowing ignorance of the law by anyone other than a police officer

Lensflare · 01-06-2009, 08:08

I disagree, just because you do not know a law exists does not make you immune from it.

There may be instances where "security officers", we used to call them caretakers, step beyond the law and usurp powers they do not possess. If this was pursued through the courts with a private prosecution it would succeed. The trouble is most people just the let the matter go.

I haven't read the Greek man's story because my computer won't allow me to see links, it just goes to a blank page each time, but I would like to think he received suitable recompense, he certainly was due some.

30-05-2009, 13:01	#1
da8iwr New here Location: Sunderland, Tyne and Wear, UK Posts: 22 iTrader: (0)	Photography Copyright Infringement I have just found that one of my images has been used by one of the largest, oldest and most well respected universities in England as their header image without my permission or even contacting me. It says at the bottom copyright 2006, so i would imagine it has been there for almost 3yrs. Does anybody know what the next process is for me, as i know Getty are famous for suing people for using their images without permission. Many thanks Ian PS it is definitely my image, it is very unique and almost impossible to take twice. __________________ My Photogrpahy Portfolio www.QuickTimeVirtualReality.com My Little Design Company www.NewWorldDesigns.co.uk - My Bullet Time Rig My Photography Kit Bullet Time Rig with 36 x 450Ds, Canon 5D, Nikon Coolpix 4500 and 8mm lens, Olympus 2020-3030-4040-5050, Sigma 8mm (canon fit), Nikon 10.5mm (for my 5D with adapter plate) and loads of other bits.

30-05-2009, 13:20	#2
namllihs Feet under the table Real name : Steve Location: Lufbra, Leicestershire Posts: 2,740 Camera: 40D iTrader: (8)	If you are 100% sure it's your image, find out if there are other instances of the images use i.e. web pages, posters etc also what time period it has been used over. Collect copies of each of these uses as evidence. Work out what you would have charged if permission was sought and add on a bonus. Contact the University and open a dialogue with a view to being recompensed to your satisfaction. __________________ My Website My Flickr

30-05-2009, 13:42	#3
Uneducated_Rick Feet under the table Real name : Ricky Tillson Location: Birmingham/Bangor University Posts: 1,695 Camera: Canon 30D + Grip iTrader: (7)	Where did you host the images for them to be taken from? Have they been entered into any competitions? I'd ensure that wherever you hosted them retains copyright as some competitions sign it over in the T&Cs of entering __________________ 30D + Grip \| Canon 10-22mm \| Canon 24-70mm L \| Canon 70-200mm 2.8 L \| Canon 100-400 L \| Sandisk Memory \| LowePro Computrekker Plus \| Generic Jessops tripod \| Lee foundation kit \| 0.3 0.6 0.9 Hitech NDG hard \| 0.3 0.6 0.9 Hitech ND My FLICKR

30-05-2009, 14:06	#4
awp Victor Meldrew Real name : Andrew Location: S. Lanarkshire, Scotland Posts: 4,783 Camera: D3 (x2) D2Hs (x2) iTrader: (14)	I'd do as much work as possible to find the extent of the use - then bill them whatever your normal fee would be x 2. I've done this many times - to some big organisations - incl a government ministry - and they always pay up - they cannot afford not to and for it to go to court - they know they are in the wrong. Good luck. __________________ Andrew my Alamy

30-05-2009, 14:36 Thread Starter	#8
da8iwr New here Location: Sunderland, Tyne and Wear, UK Posts: 22 iTrader: (0)	I have just found a random panorama on Getty to see what they would charge, and to display in all territories (just uk and usa shows same price) for web banner upto 728 x 90 use over 2yrs Web Corporate and promotional use Education industry on repeated pages it comes up with £1320. http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/85861604/Riser Whoohooo

30-05-2009, 14:22	#6
awp Victor Meldrew Real name : Andrew Location: S. Lanarkshire, Scotland Posts: 4,783 Camera: D3 (x2) D2Hs (x2) iTrader: (14)	If the image has only been used on a web site then the Alamy calculator comes up with a fee of £815 for three years use. So I'd double that for illegal use.

30-05-2009, 14:22	#7
photon Feet under the table Location: ǝʌɐɔ ʇɐq ǝɥʇ Posts: 2,372 Camera: Koni-Omegaflex (well, it's the heaviest) iTrader: (5)	With the Developer Tools in the Opera web-browser you can display when the file was uploaded and take a screenshot as part of your evidence. You can do the same with Wget, but without the graphics.

30-05-2009, 14:43 Thread Starter	#9
da8iwr New here Location: Sunderland, Tyne and Wear, UK Posts: 22 iTrader: (0)	Ahh just found acording to my firefox plugin thingy, that it was last modified 5th March 2007.

30-05-2009, 15:14	#10
awp Victor Meldrew Real name : Andrew Location: S. Lanarkshire, Scotland Posts: 4,783 Camera: D3 (x2) D2Hs (x2) iTrader: (14)	The Alamy fee was for a 1/4 screen size - so maybe should be more.....less my 10% for the advice of course.

30-05-2009, 18:38	#11
MisterE Feet under the table Real name : Michael Location: Crawley, West Sussex Posts: 1,705 Camera: Canon 5D iTrader: (0)	You can also approach them, say you want to use the image for a similar purpose and what would it cost to licence it from them. Then tell them it's yours, double their fee and then some. Or use the Alamy figure, whichever is higher.

31-05-2009, 16:35 Thread Starter	#12
da8iwr New here Location: Sunderland, Tyne and Wear, UK Posts: 22 iTrader: (0)	I think for this purpose, the Getty fee is higher, so ill use theirs as it is still at the end of the day a real genuine commercial price, even if it is high. So its not like I'm picking a number out of the air and sending them it. The letter i have sent them shows where i have got the prices from and my commercial experience in photography. Ill let you know when i hear what i happening.

31-05-2009, 16:54	#13
TomWoozle Getting Comfy Real name : Tom Location: Beds/Herts Posts: 215 Camera: Sony A200 iTrader: (0)	Best of luck. Hope this works out for you.

31-05-2009, 17:02	#14
awp Victor Meldrew Real name : Andrew Location: S. Lanarkshire, Scotland Posts: 4,783 Camera: D3 (x2) D2Hs (x2) iTrader: (14)	Look forward to hearing what I hope will be a successful outcome.

31-05-2009, 17:21	#15
Kryptix I'd buy that for 6 mirrion dorra Posts: 1,697 Camera: Canon EOS 50D iTrader: (10)	Can we see the image/site?

31-05-2009, 17:54	#17
awp Victor Meldrew Real name : Andrew Location: S. Lanarkshire, Scotland Posts: 4,783 Camera: D3 (x2) D2Hs (x2) iTrader: (14)	I think you'll be struggling to get money in 7 days - even 30 days from an organisation like this especially where you invoice doesn't have an order number on it - for obvious reasons. Last time I had a big one like this it took four months - but I got it in the end which what counted. I'm so glad you are pursuing this as it's a major problem - in the last couple of years I've had the same sort of thing from a government ministry - a quango and an MP! Plus a few smaller ones - they all paid in the end - so I'm optimistic about your outcome - they will know they are in the wrong when confronted.

31-05-2009, 18:12	#19
tontoshorse Been here a while Posts: 311 iTrader: (5)	This happened to me a couple of months back when Newcastle Universitiy used a thumbnail of mine (via Flickr!). I copied the offending page and sent an email pointing out their infringment of my copyright. The money I requested was for damages - not for the use of the picture. As they were "banged to rights" there was no option. After taking advice they requested an invoice which I provided, detailing the costs were NOT for the use (or future use) of my picture. They BT'd the money within 7 days of agreement. Turning the knfe a little I did inform them that had they of asked, they could have used the picture for free. The process, once they knew of their error was handled very well. Good luck - just be firm and polite! Last edited by tontoshorse; 31-05-2009 at 18:42. Reason: different uni!

31-05-2009, 18:13 Thread Starter	#20
da8iwr New here Location: Sunderland, Tyne and Wear, UK Posts: 22 iTrader: (0)	My Fiance is head of sub-department within a different University finance department and I know how bad they are at paying any bills especially as you said with no order numbers. But to be honest, my concern is not about how thier internal paper work system goes, hopefully this will make them look through their website with a fine tooth comb and find any other potential areas of copyright material and remove it. Or they may contact the photographers, and ask them, do you mind if we pay you to use it, and put a little bit of money into this industry. Its great to hear others having had the same problems and positive outcomes, hopefully there will be another one here.

31-05-2009, 18:35	#22
Marcel Mod Team Real name : Marcel Location: Manchester Posts: 3,384 Camera: Canon 7D iTrader: (13)	If they try and deny or contest that the image is yours. Just tell them to look at the filename __________________ "What we do for ourselves, dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains, and is immortal." Please do not PM me about site issues. I'm always here to help, but I'm not always around to reply, and if you use the 'Report Post' or 'Contact Us' feature, all staff get notified and a permanant copy of your message gets put in the staff room for us all to discuss. Thanks

31-05-2009, 18:37	#23
Jimmy_Lemon Real men do it sat down Real name : Tom Location: Skipton, UK Posts: 8,767 Camera: Canon 40D + Grip iTrader: (1)	Best of luck - after a bit of work I just found the site (the internet is a powerful tool) and, as Marcel just pointed out to me, check out the file name of the image they are using, there is no way they can explain that one too easily! EDIT - Damn it marcel - type slower __________________ Canon 40D + Grip, 17-40 F4L, 70-200 F4L IS, Canon 50 1.8, Sigma 10-20, Canon 350D + kit lens, Canon IXUS 75 \| My Flickr \| My Photoblog \| My Website \|

31-05-2009, 19:58	#26
awp Victor Meldrew Real name : Andrew Location: S. Lanarkshire, Scotland Posts: 4,783 Camera: D3 (x2) D2Hs (x2) iTrader: (14)	I hadn't noticed the file name - get a screen grab of that - I think that nails it!!

01-06-2009, 02:18	#28
Lensflare Forum Regular Real name : Simon Everett Location: Uttoxeter, Staffordshire. Posts: 1,497 iTrader: (11)	Ignorance of the law is no defence, in law.

01-06-2009, 08:08	#30
Lensflare Forum Regular Real name : Simon Everett Location: Uttoxeter, Staffordshire. Posts: 1,497 iTrader: (11)	I disagree, just because you do not know a law exists does not make you immune from it. There may be instances where "security officers", we used to call them caretakers, step beyond the law and usurp powers they do not possess. If this was pursued through the courts with a private prosecution it would succeed. The trouble is most people just the let the matter go. I haven't read the Greek man's story because my computer won't allow me to see links, it just goes to a blank page each time, but I would like to think he received suitable recompense, he certainly was due some.