Willow Tit (I think)

gemini

gemini

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I took these near to a reservoir today, I think they're Willow Tits - there were 2 seperate birds so not sure if they are both WTs as I think they look slightly different, see what you think

C & C welcome & appreciated

Alison :)

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They are either willow tits or marsh tits - I really struggle to tell those two apart. The second one is a juvenile and the third one has a deformed beak.

Lovely pictures, thanks for sharing them.

Ken
 
No, it's not a deformed beak, the bird has a seed in it! Have a closer look... :)
 
Good captures gemini (y) However #1 has got me wondering now so I shall have to put up a thread myself :thinking:
 
bionicsherpa said:
They are either willow tits or marsh tits - I really struggle to tell those two apart. The second one is a juvenile and the third one has a deformed beak.

Lovely pictures, thanks for sharing them.

Ken
Click to expand...

Thanks Ken, they were both pretty much the same size as each other so think they may have been a pair? The third one has a sunflower seed in its beak :)

theMusicMan said:
No, it's not a deformed beak, the bird has a seed in it! Have a closer look... :)
Click to expand...

(y)

u8myufo said:
Good captures gemini (y) However #1 has got me wondering now so I shall have to put up a thread myself :thinking:
Click to expand...

Thank you, I'm just going to pop over to your thread now :)
 
My gut feeling is the first two are Willow Tits - the thicker neck and the slightly curious heavy typical shape they have, while the third one could well be a Marsh Tit with it's more defined neck and slimmer shape.

It's never easy though to tell these two apart.
 
michael23 said:
hi, what is making you say willow? If you like i can put a link to this thread on surfbirds and see what is said, they can be really tricky to seperate.
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Hi Michael, I really think the 1st one is a willow tit because it was so small and "egg-shaped" and I believe that marsh tits are more slender. Yes, by all means you can put it on surfbirds, I don't mind at all. I'm wondering like I said in my original post whether these are actually 2 different birds - one willow and one marsh?? I have got quite a few more pictures if you need any more.

Let me know if you find anything out :)

CT said:
My gut feeling is the first two are Willow Tits - the thicker neck and the slightly curious heavy typical shape they have, while the third one could well be a Marsh Tit with it's more defined neck and slimmer shape.

It's never easy though to tell these two apart.
Click to expand...

I think you may be right CT, I said in my original post I thought they may be 2 different species, why do they have to be so similar :)
 
hi gemini, here is the reply from surfbirds, where were they? note the comment about cambs in final paragraph! I got totally confused, as i did last time!

"They are Willow Tits.

You have it wrong about the bill - it is not pale cutting edges but a pale spot at the base of the upper mandible that denotes Marsh Tit. have a careful read of this: http://blx1.bto.org/pdf/ringmigratio...broughton1.pdf

Willow tits also have a pale cutting edge to the lower mandible.

Shape, cap, neck, wing etc is useless in trying to identify these. Not only is it extremely unreliable and subjective, but these birds appear to be juveniles just entering moult (note the pinky tones to the legs, for juvs). Juveniles can be inseperable in these species, except for the bill feature and tail feather measurements (both of which have margins of error, around 5% and 25% respectively).

All of the pics clearly show a lack of a pale mark at the base of the upper mandible, so the chances of them being Marsh Tits are tiny. But, no matter what anyone says, you cannot be 100% sure on these images, but you can be about 95%. It's much easier with autumn/winter birds after the post-juv moult, as you have several features to base it on (mainly cheek, bill and wing).

Finally, location is also a major help these days. Willow Tits are down to around 5-7000 pairs, and their range has contracted sharply. Marsh are about 8-10 times more common, and much more widespread. But there are still lost of places where one species occurs and the other doesn't.

Incidently, I notice the OP is Cambridge-based. If these birds are in Cambs and the reservoir is e.g. Grafham then the sightings is notable indeed. Willows are extinct in Cambs."
 
michael23 said:
hi gemini, here is the reply from surfbirds, where were they? note the comment about cambs in final paragraph! I got totally confused, as i did last time!

"They are Willow Tits.

You have it wrong about the bill - it is not pale cutting edges but a pale spot at the base of the upper mandible that denotes Marsh Tit. have a careful read of this: http://blx1.bto.org/pdf/ringmigratio...broughton1.pdf

Willow tits also have a pale cutting edge to the lower mandible.

Shape, cap, neck, wing etc is useless in trying to identify these. Not only is it extremely unreliable and subjective, but these birds appear to be juveniles just entering moult (note the pinky tones to the legs, for juvs). Juveniles can be inseperable in these species, except for the bill feature and tail feather measurements (both of which have margins of error, around 5% and 25% respectively).

All of the pics clearly show a lack of a pale mark at the base of the upper mandible, so the chances of them being Marsh Tits are tiny. But, no matter what anyone says, you cannot be 100% sure on these images, but you can be about 95%. It's much easier with autumn/winter birds after the post-juv moult, as you have several features to base it on (mainly cheek, bill and wing).

Finally, location is also a major help these days. Willow Tits are down to around 5-7000 pairs, and their range has contracted sharply. Marsh are about 8-10 times more common, and much more widespread. But there are still lost of places where one species occurs and the other doesn't.

Incidently, I notice the OP is Cambridge-based. If these birds are in Cambs and the reservoir is e.g. Grafham then the sightings is notable indeed. Willows are extinct in Cambs."
Click to expand...

Hi Michael

Thanks for that, I am normally based in Cambridge but I'm up in Stoke-on-Trent at the moment visiting my family up here, so these are in Staffordshire.

Don't know if you can get back to them on surfbirds about this??

Alison :)
 
michael23 said:
yep, replied to the surfbirds thread with their location. thanks for that.
Sorry about getting confused about the id.
Click to expand...

No probs, they are very, very similar aren't they? Thanks for taking the trouble to put it on surfbirds, it's much appreciated (y)

Alison :)
 
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