Sensor Size Issues.

CT

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This is a direct comparison between identical shots taken with the Canon 20D (1.6 crop sensor) and the Canon 1DMK2n (1.3 crop sensor). We have a lot of bird photographers on the forum now and this article is aimed primarily at them in the hope that it's some help to them in choosing the best sensor format for their needs. Photography of small birds brings it's own peculiar problems as it almost always involves cropping of the original image and problems in maintaining image quality in the process. I might add that I'm still coming to terms with which is the best sensor size myself.

The following two shots were both taken tripod mounted from the same position and both with the 500mm F4L IS and 2X converter. The range was about 25 feet. The minimum focusing distance for this lens is around 15 feet, so it doesn't really get much better than this for filling the frame with small birds as much as possible. Remember that both cameras put out identical sized uncompressed TIFF images - 3519 X 2345 pixels and 23.6 megabyte file size.

20D_Full_frame.jpg


1DM2n_Full_Frame.jpg



At first glance the difference in the field of view from each camera doesn't appear too significant, but it's very deceptive. The following shot is the full frame shot from the 1DMK2n cropped by eye, but fairly accurately, to the same FOV as the 20D shot.

1DMK2n_cropped.jpg



The significant thing here is that the image size has now fallen to 2736 X 1872 pixels and only 14 megabytes - nearly 10 megabytes of 'wasted ' pixels. The situation would obviously be much worse with the same shot taken on a full frame sensor. The thing to note here is that despite the fact that both mages were recorded at the same size on the sensor, the uncropped 20D shot is now showing that branch (where a small bird could be perched) quite significantly larger than the cropped 1DMK2n version.

This next shot shows the cropped shot from the 1DMK2n superimposed over the uncropped 20D shot to graphically illustrate the difference.

Combined_shots.jpg




If I were to submit either of these two shots to Alamy, in truth, a small Blue Tit or Sparrow sized bird still wouldn't be filling the fame that well in this shot and further aesthetic cropping would probably be required, impacting on the quality of both images, but more so on the image from the 1DMK2n which is already losing the battle, but the 20D image would require a 143% increase in file size to reach 48b, whereas the image from the 1DMK2n would need a 182% increase. The impact on the fine feather detail in a bird shot would be fairly obvious from the smaller 1DMK2n image.

These last two images are just 1:1 crops from shots of a bird bath detail taken with the 500mm F4L on both the 20D and the 1DMK2n to show the difference in the size of the actual subject when viewing the full size (1:1 )file from each camera.

20D

Bird_Bath_20D.jpg



1DMK2n

Bird_Bath_1DMK2n.jpg



I think the results speak for themselves!

It's not all about birds of course and I wont be getting rid of my 1DMK2n any time soon. The build quality is far superior and there are occasions when the faster AF and drive speed is going to be better for larger flying bird shots. The larger sensor also comes into it's own with wider lenses, and any shot in fact where you can fill the frame reasonably. If you're primarily a bird photographer though, and hankering after a 1 Series body, I think you'd do far better to spend the money on top end long glass if you want to see the best results. Even if you really can't avoid the temptation to buy that 1 Series body, make sure there's a 1.6x crop sensor camera in your bag for the best of both worlds.
 
thanks for that CT
a very lucid explanation
 
Interesting stuff CT - and exactly why when I started in photography (so, so long ago) I quickly got disillusioned with bird photography

Needing a 500mm with a 2x converter and a 1.6x crop factor, and still having to crop significantly at just 25ft! FFS!!!

If I wanted to photo birds now, I'd just take my 70-200mm f2.8 move to Africa and shoot Ostriches from the hotel! :LOL:
 
Very informative and well written (y)
 
Great explination! not that I understood all of it though :thinking: Oh and BTW the birds seems to have buggered off too :D
 
Interesting stuff CT - and exactly why when I started in photography (so, so long ago) I quickly got disillusioned with bird photography

Needing a 500mm with a 2x converter and a 1.6x crop factor, and still having to crop significantly at just 25ft! FFS!!!

If I wanted to photo birds now, I'd just take my 70-200mm f2.8 move to Africa and shoot Ostriches from the hotel! :LOL:
Or... buy an E-510 / E-3 :)

Not so bad see are they.... Oly's:woot:
 
. This is where Oly users really can benefit from their 2X crop factor.

Well it depends really. Don't forget they still get the same size image on the sensor for a given focal length lens. If they can get the long glass - 500mm and 600mm lenses, then there's an obvious benefit. That has to be offset though against things like pixel size and how many pixels are crammed onto the sensor which can produce other problems like noise.

It can get quite cerebral and I don't pretend to understand all the implications - I'm still getting my head round this like most everyone else. :shrug:
 
Interesting read CT. Thanks for that. Learn a bit more every time I log into this site.
 
Diddy dave, you dont need a telephoto to get close to a dead ostrich!!
 
So is the ideal setup a 40D for the telephoto shots and a 1Ds mk 3 for everything 100mm or greater??
 
sorry that should be 100mm or less (focal length):amstupid:
 
Thanks for this CT, will test this weekend and order the 40D on Monday :eek:.

Just got an invite from the Bank Manager for a cup of tea and a chat, how nice.
 
I say buy a bigger lens :)

The coming 800mm Canon will solve all the frame filling issues in that scenario :D


Bank emptying issues as a result are a whole new problem though :eek:
 
These are rather geeky comparisons but I have to say it's pretty intersting and useful too.

I can see where the smaller sensor is rendering the 1d the lesser too for the job but it's also so with the bigger sensor cameras. I'm starting to feel a little sorry for my 1d, in terms of image quality it's pretty much becomming outclassed but most of the canon lineup.

Even the smallest of canon's full frame line up (that is still the 5d isn't it?) will outperform the 1d II. A shot taken on the 5d and then croppped back the 1.3x sensor size will still produce a bigger file than the full frame from a 1d II.
 
Geeky!!! Thanks mate! :LOL:

The 40D is looking a really well spec'd camera now. The problem with buying the 1 Series camera is that the prosumer range soon follow it up with a model which is pushing it on specs anyway.

The new 1DSMK3 will have 21 million pixels and still be beaten in the cropping stakes by the 40D. :shrug:
 
The new 1DSMK3 will have 21 million pixels and still be beaten in the cropping stakes by the 40D. :shrug:

Indubitably Mr :geek: CT :)D).
However you you'll be able buy the 500mm f4 AND the 40D for the price of that body alone... makes you think some.
 
Geeky!!! Thanks mate! :LOL:

Well I'd never insult you with a label I wasn't happy to wear myself. :LOL:

Besides, we both know the reason for rating the 1d II so highly won't be found in the spec list, or even image quality. When I shoot with mine, I know the jobs in the bag pretty much every time I hear the shutter go. It feels right, the fit and balance are perfect. Even the way it just hooks itself over your fingertips as it hangs by your side is just right.

Shooting with the 5d, I spend that bit more time checking the histgram and focus before I move on.
 
So is the ideal setup a 40D for the telephoto shots and a 1Ds mk 3 for everything 100mm or greater??
The ideal set up Paul is a full frame sensor and fill the viewfinder with your subject.

Andy Rouse the wildlife tog uses a 1DMK3 and a 1DSMK2. Without doubt he'll get the 1DSMK3 as soon as it's available.

Andy isn't an out and out birder though, he travels the world (lucky b*****d) taking shots of Grizzlies, Gorillas, Tigers and all manner of critters where he can use those larger sensors to maximum benefit.

The issues we're discussing here are really peculiar to birds and smaller critters, but to answer your question, a good setup could be a 1.6X crop body for use with long lenses and a full frame body for landscape and everything else. It depends very much though on what sort of togging you do. :)
 
Well I'd never insult you with a label I wasn't happy to wear myself. :LOL:

Besides, we both know the reason for rating the 1d II so highly won't be found in the spec list, or even image quality. When I shoot with mine, I know the jobs in the bag pretty much every time I hear the shutter go. It feels right, the fit and balance are perfect. Even the way it just hooks itself over your fingertips as it hangs by your side is just right.

Shooting with the 5d, I spend that bit more time checking the histgram and focus before I move on.

I couldn't agree more. What I want is a 1DMK3 with a 1.6X crop sensor. :shrug:
 
I say buy a bigger lens :)

The coming 800mm Canon will solve all the frame filling issues in that scenario :D


Bank emptying issues as a result are a whole new problem though :eek:
Erm.. these example shots (all but the last two) were taken at 1000mm. ;)
 
I couldn't agree more. What I want is a 1DMK3 with a 1.6X crop sensor. :shrug:

I would take a guess that using a T/C on a Mk3 would give the same resultant IQ loss as trying to cram the pixels into less space.

Maybe the solution we should all be pushing for is an affordable EF800/1.2L IS with an MTF chart that emulates the EF135.....I'm sure that would sell although visually it would probably emulate something capable of performing in a 21 gun salute.

Bob
 
I think I'll go back to point and shoot, will sort out my bad back (and my short temper...)

Think of the holidays we could all have, and still bring back 7Mb of kids and the wife....
 
Just thought I'd add that's it's not just for birds but macro as well...
 
I need to lie down




#medic!
 
LOL. This is causing probs over on the bird forum where one or two people are having trouble accepting it. :D
 
I'm not surprised, you told them the cheaper body is better. Just tell em to be thankful they're not using a Nikon :D
 
Don't forget that reach isn't everything and generally bigger pixels give a better noise performance, which can also be very important in poor light.

A 1DII has the same pixel pitch as a 5D and a 1DSII is the same as a 10D.

To take this to an extreme, then a D2X is probably about the best option as it has the most pixels on an APS-C sensor.

I agree that for bird portraits in good light, a "prosumer" body is probably best, but for birds in flight, give me that 45 point AF anyday.

You say you want a 1D with a crop - I think what I really want is a 3D (which I define as 45 point AF in a 40D/5D body)
 
Don't forget that reach isn't everything and generally bigger pixels give a better noise performance, which can also be very important in poor light.

A 1DII has the same pixel pitch as a 5D and a 1DSII is the same as a 10D.

To take this to an extreme, then a D2X is probably about the best option as it has the most pixels on an APS-C sensor.

I agree that for bird portraits in good light, a "prosumer" body is probably best, but for birds in flight, give me that 45 point AF anyday.

You say you want a 1D with a crop - I think what I really want is a 3D (which I define as 45 point AF in a 40D/5D body)
Go on... you can say it... it goes..... OOOOLLLYYMMMPPPUUSSSS

You are allowed to say it you know... can't quite bring yourself to say it eh... :):)
 
Here are the dimensions for Canons camera's:

EOS-1D MkII = Width = 28.7mm and 3504 pixels = 8.2 microns
EOS-1D MkIII = Width = 28.1mm and 3888 pixels = 7.2 microns
EOS-1Ds MkII = Width = 36.0mm and 4992 pixels = 7.2 microns
EOS-1DsMkIII= Width = 35.8mm and 5616 pixels = 6.4 microns

EOS-5D = Width = 35.8mm and 4368 pixels = 8.2 microns
EOS-400D= Width = 22.2mm and 3888 pixels = 5.7 microns
EOS-20D =Width = 22.5mm and 3501 pixels = 6.4 microns
EOS30D = Width = 22.5mm and 3501 pixels = 6.4 microns
EOS-40D = Width = 22.2mm and 3888 pixels = 5.7 microns

There is a trend for pixels to become smaller with newer camera's without increasing noise levels. This is good as the higher pixel density equates to better sampling of objects photographed.
 
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