My foray into MF

jamesoliverstone

jamesoliverstone

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Hi all, well I finally took the plunge and bought myself a Mamiya 645 pro with an 80mm 2.8 N.

I have been toying with the idea for ages, but I am off for a photo assignment in Africa next month, and I really want to try that 1/500 sync out in the field, using MF wide open. I just cannot wait to get some film though it now :)

I got it for an absolute bargain so I am pretty chuffed.

Any tips for a medium format noob? I have wanted to try medium format for ages, but this will be the first time I have used it...
 
Well immediately get out and use it for experience, as it would be too late in Africa.
 
The 1/500 sync is flash speak and in Africa not sure you will need that, better off at night to go bulb, also Africa is such a great big country, try using something a little smaller than f2.8, but that is up to you, from and vehicular platform you will have to compromise on what you think today.

If it was not for your rating, I would think that you were in for a troll.

I hope you travel well and have a great time, do not forget that VD is riff in AFRICA :)
 
James, your photos are great enough without being given even more real estate with medium format! Choose your film carefully and make sure when you get it developed and scanned you choose a good company to do it. The scanning be can be especially tricky.

The instructions for the camera are here:
http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/files/support/legacy/645/645_Pro3.pdf

It shoots in landscape format in its normal orientation but as it comes with a prism flipping it round to shoot portrait shouldn't be too hard. Spend some time doing this as the layout will be a lot different form an SLR.

Also, always remember to load and unload the 120 film in subdued light and store used film very carefully in a light tight box as it doesn't have the inherent protection that a 35mm casette gives.

Have fun!
 
medwaygreen said:
The 1/500 sync is flash speak and in Africa not sure you will need that, better off at night to go bulb, also Africa is such a great big country, try using something a little smaller than f2.8, but that is up to you, from and vehicular platform you will have to compromise on what you think today.
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Sorry, I should point out that the only thing I will be using the 645 for is portraits, and I shoot with a single very powerful off camera flash when I am shooting environmental work. (plus I always shoot wide open).

medwaygreen said:
If it was not for your rating, I would think that you were in for a troll.
Click to expand...

Not quite sure what you mean by this? I was simply saying that I am new to the medium, but certainly not to photography or film, and was asking for any handy tips? I dont think anything I have said is troll like?

medwaygreen said:
I hope you travel well and have a great time, do not forget that VD is riff in AFRICA :)
Click to expand...

Again, really not sure what you mean by this? I am a documentary photographer that works in child protection and I am out there producing a piece of photojournalism on some pretty serious child related issues... I dont know where you are coming from with that commment?
 
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menthel said:
James, your photos are great enough without being given even more real estate with medium format! Choose your film carefully and make sure when you get it developed and scanned you choose a good company to do it. The scanning be can be especially tricky.

The instructions for the camera are here:
http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/files/support/legacy/645/645_Pro3.pdf

It shoots in landscape format in its normal orientation but as it comes with a prism flipping it round to shoot portrait shouldn't be too hard. Spend some time doing this as the layout will be a lot different form an SLR.

Also, always remember to load and unload the 120 film in subdued light and store used film very carefully in a light tight box as it doesn't have the inherent protection that a 35mm casette gives.

Have fun!
Click to expand...

Cheers Jim for the kind words, and thats some seriously useful advice!

I had no idea about having to flip the prism for orientation, and I had no idea about the difference in loading and storing 120 over 35mm (y)

I assumed that I would use Ilford B&W and just send them to Illford for processing and scanning... are there better films and processors that I should be using? I want to make sure I dont scrimp at all on film and developing...

Thanks again Jim, I shall have a browse through the PDF now :)
 
jamesoliverstone said:
Cheers Jim for the kind words, and thats some seriously useful advice!

I had no idea about having to flip the prism for orientation, and I had no idea about the difference in loading and storing 120 over 35mm (y)

I assumed that I would use Ilford B&W and just send them to Illford for processing and scanning... are there better films and processors that I should be using? I want to make sure I dont scrimp at all on film and developing...

Thanks again Jim, I shall have a browse through the PDF now :)
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I may not have been clear- as with a 35mm SLR you have to physically turn the camera onto its side. Its a bit more of an ergonomic challenge with a MF SLR! Ilford film will suit you fine- for your needs I would grab something 100iso, Delta 100 or FP4+ would suit. Ilford process and scan very nicely but are rather expensive. It will be £15 per film for dev and high res scans!
 
menthel said:
I may not have been clear- as with a 35mm SLR you have to physically turn the camera onto its side. Its a bit more of an ergonomic challenge with a MF SLR! Ilford film will suit you fine- for your needs I would grab something 100iso, Delta 100 or FP4+ would suit. Ilford process and scan very nicely but are rather expensive. It will be £15 per film for dev and high res scans!
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Gotcha, I get you with the ergonomics :)

I have grabbed a few rolls of FP4+ so I will see how that goes... is it best in the long run to just develop and scan at home?

Of course, if I fall in love with it, I may just grab a digital back too ;)
 
I only shoot B&W and only develop and scan at home. It is not hard at all to get the hang of. Scanning is the tricky bit and dependant on the planned use for the photos different scanning may be needed. Personal use and small prints are fine from a flatbed scanner (I have a 12x12 on my wall from a flatbed scan that could have gone bigger) but much larger prints may require specialist scanning.
 
Scanning is more of a problem with 35mm, with MF a cheap scanner would do..but if you are a pro and want to do home scanning then at least start with Epson V500 flatbed scanner (of course this depends if you are interested in continuing using film and spending about £140 to do so).
 
For processing, I'd have to ask; who is paying. If its a paid job I'd be inclined to get Ilford (or another lab) to do it. Scanning (I presume) a load of rolls will be a little tedious and I presume you'll have other pp to do.
 
Despite the fact that thefogging of film by x-ray scanners seems to be a moot point, it is worth insisting that your films are hand inspected. Don't forget to take the film out of the camera (and any spare backs) so it can also be included with the films to be hand inspected.

Some operators will insist that if your film is low speed that the x-ray machine will have no effect. The trick here is to include with your films a roll of iso 1600 or 3200 film (even if you don't use it), you can then argue your point.
 
Thanks for the replies all, this is really good info.

I am going to run a roll of FP4+ throught the camera and get it processed and scanned at Ilford. This will give me a baseline of what I should expect... Then I will buy the gear needed to process at home I think, and from there get some practise in with some ood film I have. We have a negative scanner at work so I can use the one here, so I reckon this will be the easiest and cheapest way of doing it...

So excited, I cant wait til the weekend to run some shots off :)

Thanks for the good advice all (y)
 
wickerman said:
Some operators will insist that if your film is low speed that the x-ray machine will have no effect. The trick here is to include with your films a roll of iso 1600 or 3200 film (even if you don't use it), you can then argue your point.
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Bloody good idea that, I shall grab a couple of cheap OOD rolls from fleabay :)
 
Rather than Ilford it would probably be better to send them to a pro lab like Peak Imaging or 'The Darkroom' as Ilford's service is geared towards being for consumers with them having a warning about the service not being designed for professional users. The price will likely be lower as well because Ilford do charge quite a bit for their service compared to other places although the prints on proper B&W paper that they do are very nice.

Just remember to pack the film in your hand luggage and not the hold; the x-ray scanners used to scan hand luggage are generally film safe but the ones that have been installed to scan hold luggage have become much more powerful than in the past and will fog film.
 
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Sorry James, I was not coming from anywhere, please accept my apologises if I offended you.

Richard.
 
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James, Having, I hope had the ^^^^ accepted, I have read some of the later posts where you develop more of what you will be doing, so here are some of my thoughts.

First, Portrait work with 645 medium is tedious as with the camera flipped on its side for the portrait aspect the viewing is difficult with waist level focussing screen, even with a prism viewfinder it can be uncomfortable, see if there is a right angle viewer available has with this you can orientate the camera and still view from above, much better ergonomically and anthropometric-ally.

second, outside work and light. the best ISO you can obtain I believe in B&W that is economical is 100, now working as a foundation with Sunny 16, this would give you a minimum of 1/100 of a second at f16, so doing the maths f2.8 gives you a speed of 1/3200 of a second I think I am right and the intense light of Africa may even compound this. Therefore on this scale if correct your MF will be out gunned by the light at f2.8.

What can be done, well you could try some ND,s you would have to experiment, but of course each level of ND is worth as you know ( I do not never used them ) so many stops this could therefore bring you back into the realms of shooting that would encompass your 645, the IQ reduction is again something for you to consider.

Lastly a comment on the use of off flash work, I guess as you have stated this in your first post it is important for you to use, I assume it creates the style of light use on the subject for you. having stated above the working light issues, perhaps you might consider the use of reflectors to add that some extra to you portrait by either using white ,silver or gold to enhance one side or the other, also the use of say black, brown or blue to achieve the opposite.

Sorry it is so long, but it is the best I can offer. (y)

Richard.
 
would just like to say have a safe and productive trip ,and its good that we have another film user with us , ( hope you keep on being one as well ) and if you're able to share any images when you have them ,,,i'm looking forward to seeing them

Andy
 
medwaygreen said:
James, Having, I hope had the ^^^^ accepted, I have read some of the later posts where you develop more of what you will be doing, so here are some of my thoughts.

First, Portrait work with 645 medium is tedious as with the camera flipped on its side for the portrait aspect the viewing is difficult with waist level focussing screen, even with a prism viewfinder it can be uncomfortable, see if there is a right angle viewer available has with this you can orientate the camera and still view from above, much better ergonomically and anthropometric-ally.

second, outside work and light. the best ISO you can obtain I believe in B&W that is economical is 100, now working as a foundation with Sunny 16, this would give you a minimum of 1/100 of a second at f16, so doing the maths f2.8 gives you a speed of 1/3200 of a second I think I am right and the intense light of Africa may even compound this. Therefore on this scale if correct your MF will be out gunned by the light at f2.8.

What can be done, well you could try some ND,s you would have to experiment, but of course each level of ND is worth as you know ( I do not never used them ) so many stops this could therefore bring you back into the realms of shooting that would encompass your 645, the IQ reduction is again something for you to consider.

Lastly a comment on the use of off flash work, I guess as you have stated this in your first post it is important for you to use, I assume it creates the style of light use on the subject for you. having stated above the working light issues, perhaps you might consider the use of reflectors to add that some extra to you portrait by either using white ,silver or gold to enhance one side or the other, also the use of say black, brown or blue to achieve the opposite.

Sorry it is so long, but it is the best I can offer. (y)

Richard.
Click to expand...

Agree with what Richard has said about the ergonomics of using the 645 in potrait mode and also his thoughts on film speed.
Also worth pointing out that if you are already juggling with holding a camera and a finder on its side and then you add a ND filter into the equation you're giving yourself a whole load of heartache in terms of having enough hands to hold everything and being able to compose with an ND filter attached.
 
medwaygreen said:
Sorry James, I was not coming from anywhere, please accept my apologises if I offended you.

Richard.
Click to expand...

None taken :)

medwaygreen said:
First, Portrait work with 645 medium is tedious as with the camera flipped on its side for the portrait aspect the viewing is difficult with waist level focussing screen, even with a prism viewfinder it can be uncomfortable, see if there is a right angle viewer available has with this you can orientate the camera and still view from above, much better ergonomically and anthropometric-ally.
Click to expand...

I hadnt considered this... I shall have a play today when the camera arrives (hopefulyl this afternoon), but to be honest I tend to shoot most of my environmental portraits in landscape anyways.. It comes with a prism viewfinder so I can have a play with this...

medwaygreen said:
second, outside work and light. the best ISO you can obtain I believe in B&W that is economical is 100, now working as a foundation with Sunny 16, this would give you a minimum of 1/100 of a second at f16, so doing the maths f2.8 gives you a speed of 1/3200 of a second I think I am right and the intense light of Africa may even compound this. Therefore on this scale if correct your MF will be out gunned by the light at f2.8.

What can be done, well you could try some ND,s you would have to experiment, but of course each level of ND is worth as you know ( I do not never used them ) so many stops this could therefore bring you back into the realms of shooting that would encompass your 645, the IQ reduction is again something for you to consider.
Click to expand...

I use Lee ND's to reduce light down in the field to allow me to shoot wide open, so this combined with some ISO 100 or even 50 film if I can find some will be fine :)

medwaygreen said:
Lastly a comment on the use of off flash work, I guess as you have stated this in your first post it is important for you to use, I assume it creates the style of light use on the subject for you. having stated above the working light issues, perhaps you might consider the use of reflectors to add that some extra to you portrait by either using white ,silver or gold to enhance one side or the other, also the use of say black, brown or blue to achieve the opposite.

Sorry it is so long, but it is the best I can offer. (y)

Richard.
Click to expand...

Well, I do use natural light wherever possible, but when shooting wide environmental portaits you cannot use reflectors and the like as they will be too close and therefore in the shot, so a large off camera is the best way to pop some light into the scene... plus I nowadays am shooting a certain "look" to my photos which I can only achieve with additional constant, or flash lighting.

But, that being said, I go try to just shoot with a handheld reflector where possible, especially if shooting close in an urban evironment for example...

Thanks for the advice :D

donutagain said:
would just like to say have a safe and productive trip ,and its good that we have another film user with us , ( hope you keep on being one as well ) and if you're able to share any images when you have them ,,,i'm looking forward to seeing them

Andy
Click to expand...

Thanks Andy, and of course I will share any photos taken on the 645 (assuming they arent absolute junk ;))

s162216 said:
Rather than Ilford it would probably be better to send them to a pro lab like Peak Imaging or 'The Darkroom' as Ilford's service is geared towards being for consumers with them having a warning about the service not being designed for professional users. The price will likely be lower as well because Ilford do charge quite a bit for their service compared to other places although the prints on proper B&W paper that they do are very nice.

Just remember to pack the film in your hand luggage and not the hold; the x-ray scanners used to scan hand luggage are generally film safe but the ones that have been installed to scan hold luggage have become much more powerful than in the past and will fog film.
Click to expand...

After reading their site, it seems that perhaps Peak Imaging would be a good choice as its really the scan I am interested in, so thanks for that (y) Mind you though, I would have thought that Ilford would do a really good job of it, seeing as its them that makes the film? My prints on 35mm have always been absolutely spot on...

I always have trouble taking films into the field, and the last major trip I did to Africa I had 20 rolls of 35mm that all effectively got ruined becuase of the sheer amount of scanners I had to go through... even though I ended up begging the security staff to check them manually, they still werent having any of it, so this time I wont take as much with me and try to keep the ISO as low as possible... my 800 B&W didnt stand a chance last time...
 
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Thanks you for replying James and my best wishes for a fantastic and of course productive trip.

Looking forward to seeing some of the film results.

Richard.
 
Pan-F is ISO 50 and about the same price as other Ilford films, so that would probably work well. I have also heard that Fomapan 100 downrates to 50 quite nicely too. Rollei Retro 80s is also a slightly faster option. Mind you most iso 100 films can be downrated and their dev times adjusted accordingly...
 
Hi James, because of the first few posts, I had a look at your work, must say it is hard to find, but found this shot, can you tell me as I am so interested into getting that high off flash camera effect, what flash did you use and were did you place it to get that wonderful natural looking photograph. It is such a brilliant looking photograph.

Richard.

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=391676
 
menthel said:
Pan-F is ISO 50 and about the same price as other Ilford films, so that would probably work well. I have also heard that Fomapan 100 downrates to 50 quite nicely too. Rollei Retro 80s is also a slightly faster option. Mind you most iso 100 films can be downrated and their dev times adjusted accordingly...
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Aha, thats interesting... I shall see if I can grab some Pan-F as I would really like to get some iso 50 film... thanks for the info (y)

medwaygreen said:
Hi James, because of the first few posts, I had a look at your work, must say it is hard to find, but found this shot, can you tell me as I am so interested into getting that high off flash camera effect, what flash did you use and were did you place it to get that wonderful natural looking photograph. It is such a brilliant looking photograph.

Richard.

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=391676
Click to expand...

Thanks Richard, That shot is actually lit with natural light from a reflector being held by my girlfriend off to the right of the hut ;) I prefer if I can to get my subject into the shade and bounce the light to them.. sometimes using two reflectors, one closer boucing light onto the rear of the subject for seperation, and one providing the fill...

This shot for example was shot in a pitch black hut in the bush in the middle of the day, with a big reflector bouncing the harsh African sun straight through the door to light her...
The-beauty-of-the-maasai-Edit.jpg


However, this was a shot taken outside in the middle of the day using a powerful flash off camera, and then killing all ambient light using ND filters. I couldnt shoot this indoors as there was no space, and I was in a rush, so I had no choice but to kill all ambient light and I couldnt have done this with a speedlight or smaller portable flash...

DSC_9741-Edit-2-Edit-Edit.jpg


There is a link to my website in my sig, but that only shows on the first post, but if you are interested its http://www.lomayani.com

With regards to off camera flash though, I use an Alien Bee B1600 flash in a humungous 50" softbox to give me a powerful but soft light even in the middle of the day in Africa. The reasons are twofold... 1) most of the locations I shoot in have absolutely no cover for me to shoot in shade, so its easier to fill in the shadows using a big soft light where the use of a reflector is too difficult (ie. in the shot). 2) I like to also create shots underexposing the ambient light by upto a stop, and then lighting my subject to seperate them from the environment. It may not be to everyones taste, but its a visual style that works for me :)

Anyway, sorry I was going off topic there :LOL:
 
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Thank you James for that reply, I am going to research the link you gave me and thank you for that.

The technical data on flash again is way above my head, but I will read and read again to try and improve myself.

Many thanks for your very prompt reply.

Richard.
 
James, I think your work is a real inspiration, and I look forward to seeing your work on the MF gear.
 
menthel said:
It shoots in landscape format in its normal orientation...
Click to expand...

I am really confused by this; I thought the thing about 6*4.5 cameras was that they were normally set in portrait orientation... 6 cm vertically, across the 120 film that is travelling horizontally. Does this mean that the Mamiya 645 has the film travelling vertically?
 
ChrisR said:
I am really confused by this; I thought the thing about 6*4.5 cameras was that they were normally set in portrait orientation... 6 cm vertically, across the 120 film that is travelling horizontally. Does this mean that the Mamiya 645 has the film travelling vertically?
Click to expand...

Do not think so Chris, in all MF 6 camera,s the 6 is always the width of the film and then 4.5 is your down size frame as you wind on then 6 for 6X6 etc.
 
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ChrisR said:
I am really confused by this; I thought the thing about 6*4.5 cameras was that they were normally set in portrait orientation... 6 cm vertically, across the 120 film that is travelling horizontally. Does this mean that the Mamiya 645 has the film travelling vertically?
Click to expand...

It certainly does travel vertically! A little strange but with a prism and a little practice it shouldn't be a great problem.
 
menthel said:
It certainly does travel vertically! A little strange but with a prism and a little practice it shouldn't be a great problem.
Click to expand...

Hi Jim, what do you mean by this, does the Mamiya load sideways? as opposed to most other 645. I am at a loss:bonk:
 
With the exception of the Pentax 6x7, I can't think of any MF camera which has the film travelling horizontally, like it does in in 35mm?
Some-one may well come along and prove me wrong of course.
Certainly the ones I've used : Mamiya C220, C330, Bronica Etrs, SQA, Hasselblad etc.
 
GHP said:
With the exception of the Pentax 6x7, I can't think of any MF camera which has the film travelling horizontally, like it does in in 35mm?
Some-one may well come along and prove me wrong of course.
Certainly the ones I've used : Mamiya C220, C330, Bronica Etrs, SQA, Hasselblad etc.
Click to expand...

horizontally

That,s the word I was looking for.(y)
 
Folders do, but they're usually 6x9 or 6x6 and it doesn't really matter when its square.
 
steveo_mcg said:
Folders do, but they're usually 6x9 or 6x6 and it doesn't really matter when its square.
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Exactly, but 6X9 would be LF would it not, :)
 
I didn't think LF started until sheet film 4x5 (inch) sort of size. Might be wrong though.
 
steveo_mcg said:
I didn't think LF started until sheet film 4x5 (inch) sort of size. Might be wrong though.
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Yes I think that is very true.(y) getting CM mixed with inches.
 
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The RB67 does both horizontal and vertical (y)
 
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