Camera Kit Heading for the Bin - Please Help!!!

Hammerhead64

Hammerhead64

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726
Name
Paul
Edit My Images
Yes
I keep seeing TP posts of Birds/Wildlife that are pin sharp. I have tried and tried to get somewhere close but I am failing miserably and I don't know why. I am getting close to putting all my kit in the bin, spending the rest of my life as an outcast from the TP/Photo community. Am I asking too much from my humble kit? Am I missing something in the camera settings? Am I doing something wrong in the processing of the RAW files? Here is a prime example of the problem.

Here is the Full pic: Taken with Sony A100 using Sigma 170-500mm f5/6.3 @ a dist of approx 9.5m, ISO400, 500mm, Spot Metered f6.3, 1/320sec.

BirdCrit001Full.jpg


and also a cropped to show the lack of sharpness:

BirdCrit001Crop.jpg


:help:Please.....Please.....Please someone help......I would be lost without my Photography but the frustration is just getting to me:help:

Paul
 
Are you handholding? Using a tripod or monopod? resting on a windowledge?

I'm no wildlife expert but hopefully one will be along soon so don't despair.
 
if your shooting raw they may need sharping in post processing. but not sure if that is your only issue, also might be camera shake.
 
Opps .. :naughty:sorry peeps ....critical info I missed .... I was using my Manfrotto 055PROOB lump of a tripod not extended and on firm ground.
 
do not bin a 500mm i would die for a longer reach lens i use 300mm as it stands and i seem to get some alright shots but only after a year of practice. Just practice and practice maybe try and find a local hide and get you practice up and your guarenteed to get birds coming quite close.

also RAW's are unprocessed so they are not as sharp as JPEG's so sharpen them up loads or switch.
 
To start of with I think you need to practice a proper long lens technique, as their are a lot of factors which affect sharpness.

read and practice this technique in the link below as an absolute minimum, its very sound advice from a well respected pro.

http://www.moosepeterson.com/techtips/longlens.html

you should start to see some improvement
 
is this through a window? i.e taken through glass?
 
Could it be:

A)Noise/noise reduction? A100 isn't renowned for great noise handling even at ISO400.

B)Back focus/front focus? Another renowned problem affecting KM and Sony camera.
 
i'd say the problem may be using it wide open( f6.3 ) @ 500mm,i have the same lens on a D 80 & i've found @ 500 i's o.k at f 8-11.
 
Good link that mho cheers.
 
I shoot a long lens...Sigma 300-800 and it takes a LOT of work. The techniques described on the link above do help. I was out late yesterday and it was as windy as hell so I could not shoot at all at the longer lengths. Every touch of the camera/lens/shutter release/how you breathe etc accentuates the camera movement, especially 400mm+.

I know there are other longer lens users on here who will tell you to stick at it and practise your techniques.

Good luck!
 
Great link mho placed in my favourites, so I can reread each time I go out.

hotchef ... no I wasn't taking through glass ...although I have tried that so I didn't scare the birdy's off .... all i got was a horrible mess.


Kev M said:
Could it be:

A)Noise/noise reduction? A100 isn't renowned for great noise handling even at ISO400.

B)Back focus/front focus? Another renowned problem affecting KM and Sony camera.
Click to expand...

:( :eek: I knew I bought the wrong kit ... :bang: ... I'm doomed, forever only going to get noisy pics .... :thinking: hey .... hold on .... you're not a Nikon/Canon loving Sony hater are you??

Hey all you quick posters :love:... I think I can feel me stepping away from the edge ..... think positive ... practice, practice and hold my breath ........
 
No doubt about it you can get some shots that match the ones you think are good on here. Just that word cropping back up again, practice. Why don't you wake up really early one day and just go to a wood and just sit for a few hours that normally motivates me even if i don't get any good shots !
 
how old is the lens, It may need re-calibrating by Sigma, also you are shooting wide open at F/6.3 @ 500mm, try stopping down a stop or two, yes i know this might be too slow but the 170-500 isn't exactly the best lens for wildlife ;) It might help if you take a shot at F/8-11 at 500mm of a still object and see how sharp that is?
 
Hammerhead64 said:
:( :eek: I knew I bought the wrong kit ... :bang: ... I'm doomed, forever only going to get noisy pics .... :thinking: hey .... hold on .... you're not a Nikon/Canon loving Sony hater are you??
Click to expand...

Nope, I'm a Konica Minolta 5D (what your camera came from) owner for the last 2-3 years. Like it or not the A mount has BF/FF issues, go to dyxum and you'll find plenty of examples first hand.
 
Whats wrong with that then? :D

BirdCrit001Crop-sharp.jpg


Bit of PS work is all it took. I am certainly no expert at PS and I only spent 2 mins on this one.

Oops, just noticed you haven't got your Edit pics boxed checked, sorry. I'll remove if you want??
 
Kev .....only joking with you ... I've seen some posts of yours in the past so I already know you're a KM user. Thanks for taking the time to respond, could you explain a bit more on what you mean by BF/FF issues.

Andy .... :clap: no problem that looks too good to be a pic I took .... you didn't sneak into my garden and take some pics on an uber Camera/Lens setup did you. If it is just some PS tweaking though can you let me know how you did it.....(y)
 
I'd be very interested to know how thats done also, as I've always found sharpening in PS a bit of a black art!

tbh I find myself pretty much in the same position as yourself Hammerhead, can be quite frustrating at times eh?
 
mattyh said:
I think (not one of my strong points mind :p) for longer stuff, you're supposed to press the shutter on the exhale of breath :shrug:
Click to expand...

Thought about this one and I think that, as with "real shooting", the breath should be drawn normally, held when ready to shoot after taking a half breath in. The shot is then taken whilst holding the breath (the chest has stopped heaving) and gently release the breath after the shot has been taken.
BTW is it not better to shoot with both eyes open?

David.
 
Hammerhead64 said:
Andy .... :clap: no problem that looks too good to be a pic I took .... you didn't sneak into my garden and take some pics on an uber Camera/Lens setup did you. If it is just some PS tweaking though can you let me know how you did it.....(y)
Click to expand...

I know the feeling mate which I why I did this for you. A little while ago I posted some pics and was feeling a little inferior in skill due to the sharp pics on here. CT reposted one of mine after a quick process and I couldn't believe it was my picture :LOL:

So what I did, used CS3 to process. Quick selection tool to highlight the subject, copy and paste to create another layer with only the main subject in. Run Noise Ninja plugin in main background layer. Run Smart Sharpen on subject layer, approx 50%. Flattened layers back to one and run sharpen filter on total image. Saved.

Probably not doing this properly myself but you can see the difference even if I am not doing it correctly :D

Point to remember that was made above, if shooting in RAW you will need to sharpen as the image will be slightly soft. Sharpen last, do all other processing including resizing and saving to .jpg. Those last two tend to destroy most sharpening anyway, I think.
 
Hammerhead64 said:
Here is the Full pic: Taken with Sony A100 using Sigma 170-500mm f5/6.3 @ a dist of approx 9.5m, ISO400, 500mm, Spot Metered f6.3, 1/320sec.
Click to expand...

I'm sure I read somewhere that generally your shutter speed should be at least the same as your focal length to stop camera shake? In other words 1/500sec?
 
:woot: This Thread Is Amazing :woot:

As a beginner, I have found this thread to be sooooo informative. These nuggets of information must be so taken for granted that they never seem to be mentioned and therefore, us novices never seem to get to hear them.

Thank you to the OP for starting this thread and the helpful responders, without who, I would have continued sitting in the dark for a long time to come.

Gary :)
 
I don't see too much wrong at all to be honest. It looks like you're just doing insufficient sharpening in processing. Don't forget either that if you reduce a file to web size - it WILL lose definition, and will need sharpening. Don't bin the gear just yet. ;)
 
gman said:
I'm sure I read somewhere that generally your shutter speed should be at least the same as your focal length to stop camera shake? In other words 1/500sec?
Click to expand...

Yes you are correct as a rule of thumb for hand holding. When you can't achieve that you need to use a tripod, or other support method to stop camera shake. Here a tripod was used so that shutter speed/focal length ratio is ok.
 
gwocni said:
Thought about this one and I think that, as with "real shooting", the breath should be drawn normally, held when ready to shoot after taking a half breath in. The shot is then taken whilst holding the breath (the chest has stopped heaving) and gently release the breath after the shot has been taken.
BTW is it not better to shoot with both eyes open?

David.
Click to expand...

No, you generally have one "dominant eye" To find out which one is your dominant eye.... line up your finger held at arms length with an object in front of you but a few feet away. Do this with both eyes open. Then check how close you are with each eye. One will be more accurate thant he other. I'm slightly left eye dominant.

As for shooting and breathing, the best time to pull the trigger is actually at the end of an exhale. The body is much more relaxed at that stage and you don't need to rush to inhale your next breath, it gives a nice long window to take the shot.

Glad the OP is getting sorted. It is so heartening to see eveyone help each other like this and one reason I love this place :love::love:
 
andyjayh said:
I know the feeling mate which I why I did this for you. A little while ago I posted some pics and was feeling a little inferior in skill due to the sharp pics on here. CT reposted one of mine after a quick process and I couldn't believe it was my picture :LOL:

So what I did, used CS3 to process. Quick selection tool to highlight the subject, copy and paste to create another layer with only the main subject in. Run Noise Ninja plugin in main background layer. Run Smart Sharpen on subject layer, approx 50%. Flattened layers back to one and run sharpen filter on total image. Saved.

Probably not doing this properly myself but you can see the difference even if I am not doing it correctly :D

Point to remember that was made above, if shooting in RAW you will need to sharpen as the image will be slightly soft. Sharpen last, do all other processing including resizing and saving to .jpg. Those last two tend to destroy most sharpening anyway, I think.
Click to expand...

Andy .... (y) I've only got access to CS2 do you or anyone else know if this is possible using this version.

AliB said:
Glad the OP is getting sorted. It is so heartening to see eveyone help each other like this and one reason I love this place :love::love:
Click to expand...

I agree with this sentiment I am overwhelmed by the response to this thread .... although I shouldn't be surprised the TP'ers are in a class of their own...... :1st:
 
andyjayh said:
Yes you are correct as a rule of thumb for hand holding. When you can't achieve that you need to use a tripod, or other support method to stop camera shake. Here a tripod was used so that shutter speed/focal length ratio is ok.
Click to expand...

Ah, I knew there was an exception to this rule but couldn't remember! Many thanks, I was having similar problems with my 70-300mm (y)
 
I have the 170-500 and Sony A100.
It's virtually impossible to tell from an 800x600 image what is causing your woes.
If I had to make a guess I'd say camera shake. Even on a tripod with a 750mm (eq) lens at 1/320s you have the potential for movement. Did you turn SSS off because it was on a tripod? Leave it on, I've been amazed at how easy it is to move the camera on a tripod.

Have a close look at the full size image. Can you see a sort of ghost image of the perimeter of the main objects? If so it's going to be camera shake.

Wide open at that range you will have very little depth of field and the A100 focus accuracy isn't all it could be. Have a look at the fence rail at full size and see if there is a point in front or behind the bird that is in focus. That would suggest that limited DOF and focus accuracy are a problem.

Much is said about the noise handling of the A100, some of it justified and some of it just hooey. It's fair to say that you will need to invest in some noise reduction software, I use Neat Image. But it's also fair to say that at iso 400 and 800 on a well exposed image the A100 records more detail than any of it's contemporaries that I've ever seen.
Sony have chosen to adopt conservative settings for noise reduction and sharpness. It records a lot of detail and stops the image looking plastic. But you have to know how to bring it out. When I first got mine I was apalled by the high iso quality but having got the hang of it now I really like the detail.

So here's a few tips I've learned in the last 2 years of A100 ownership:

Leave SSS on all the time, if it isn't needed it won't be used.
Use DMF focus mode when shooting wide open, holding the button autofocusses and then disengages the AF so you can fine tune with the manual focus ring.
Use the focus area select, exposure follows the focus point so if you lock focus and recompose the shot will be exposed for wherever the focus point is now, not your subject.
Don't be affraid to use iso800 if the light is bad, be carefull not to underexpose and iso800 shots can be excellent.
Use NR software to clean up the image (I find all Sigma lenses produce noisey bokeh?) and apply a bit of subtle sharpening.

I'm crap at wildlife photography, it's really not my thing but even I have managed some good sharp shots with this combo.
The first couple of shots here are with the beercan but all the rest are hand held with the Sigma.
http://public.fotki.com/spannerdude/wildlife/
 
andyjayh said:
Yes you are correct as a rule of thumb for hand holding. When you can't achieve that you need to use a tripod, or other support method to stop camera shake. Here a tripod was used so that shutter speed/focal length ratio is ok.
Click to expand...

Except the rule of thumb originates from the film days, so we have to take into account the crop factor too. So in this case 1/750s.

SSS is your friend ;)
 
Even pressing the shutter release whilst tripod mounted can cause shake.

A remote wireless or cabled might help.
 
PSI Fox beat me to it. You need a remote, either cabled or radio.

As to working out which eye is dominant, I reckon I will have a problem with that one! I suffer with pure double vision in both eyes! A bit bizarre but had it for as long as I can remember!

BTW some superb advice on this thread, thanks for posing your question.

Regards

Chris
 
The remote cable release is well meaning guys but it's wrong when used with a long lens for wildlife. Long telephoto lenses create a huge problem in that mirror and shutter vibrations travels along the lens and cause image blur. You absolutely have to damp the lens with your left hand as described in the link to long lens technique in the post by Mark (mho) above.

Apart from anything else, you need one hand on the camera and one on the lens, even with a gimbal head, to have any chance of tracking birds hopping around.
 
With CT above.

My left hand stays on the lens...well, my left arm.

My first shots with my current set-up were blurry. I reviewed my technique and had a go at different shutter speeds, aperture settings etc, carefully reviewing when I got home.

I have also found that anything over 400ISO is not all that great (Nikon D2X).

(As an aside...with the greater ISO range of the D3 and not that much difference between the greater range of the 300-800 on a 1.5 crop I am starting to think that the greater shutter speeds may be of benefit.)
 
Hi CT and Brains,

Apologies to all, I bow down to your greater experience. I had wrongly assumed (should have known better as I have taught you make an ASS out of U and ME for the last 20 years) that it would be the same as a smaller lens.

Now I know what to do when I eventually get my biggy!

Regards

Chris
 
LOL. No probs Chris, I always associated a tripod with a cable release. It was news to me too when I first start looking at long lenses. ;)
 
Hammerhead64 said:
Andy .... (y) I've only got access to CS2 do you or anyone else know if this is possible using this version.
Click to expand...

Not to sure about the CS2 features compaired to CS3, so I am going to assume that the sharpening filters are the same?? :shrug: Someone else may be able to answer that based on knowledge rather then a guess :bonk:

Noise Ninja is a third party app that can be a stand alone app or a plugin for CSx. I use it as a plugin and therefore can use it during processing the image.

Hope that helps

Andy
 
spannerdude .... (y)thanks for the tips these will be a great help being specific to the A100.

It seems I did get one thing right on this and that was the use of a tripod but not with a cable release. I am going to try the long lens tips next time to see if that helps.

Andyjayh ... (y)thanks for the contiuned tips I've looked up both noise ninja and neat image and will look to purchase one of them when funds become available. :shrug: In the meantime is PS not able to produce some results with its built in features. I have a tip that I use at present using the high pass filter and will have a try on the pics posted to see what sort of result I get. Will post up the revised pic when done.
 
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