If you're no good, should you give up?

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My take on this is that it doesn't matter much whether you're any good at portraits or not.
It doesn't matter whether skilled pro photographers like them, they're not the people you need to please
It doesn't matter whether whether the general public like them or not, you don't need to please them either
All that really matters, in terms of quality, is whether you like them or not.

Photography - of all sorts - is a highly subjective subject. People judge quality using criteria that is highly biased, such as style. So, whether an individual's work is popular or not is no indication whatever of its quality, in any measurable terms. Look at the work of some of the 'celebrity' photographers who give talks at photography events, run high priced training courses and so on - most of them just have verbal diarrhea, they talk the talk but they can't walk the walk. But even if I'm wrong about that, they don't have any skills that are beyond your own reach - just read, watch, study and learn. The technical aspects are pretty straightforward and the artistic aspects are covered by learned behaviour too.

But's it's really a simpler question altogether - do you enjoy portrait photography or not?
If you do, then you'll be motivated to learn, to experiment, to push your own limits. And if it's important to you then you'll learn quickly, you won't forget why something did or didn't work, because you'll have a passion for what you're doing.
But if you don't have that passiion and if you don't enjoy it, then my advice is to find something else to do
 
If you're no good, then maybe, morally, you should give up - as in stop charging people for work. (Of course this doesn't apply to you Gareth, because your work is of a pretty good standard). Anyway, people should book you on your past work, so as long as you deliver the same or better, you're fine. Photographers generally aren't like the stock market, in that past performance is usually a pretty good indicator of future results.

As for the gear rant. I'm sure you (Gareth) are well aware that's worth ignoring. People shoot in different ways, to deal with different situations, in order to achieve different results. You shouldn't aim to shoot everything in every style possible. Shoot what you want, how you want, and people will come to you for it.

For what it's worth (which is nothing, because I'm not hiring either of you), after checking out portfolios, I would take you with no lights over Paul with a grip truck full of gear every day of the week. ;) I'm pretty sure you're not going to be competing in the same market anyway.

We all get fed up from time to time, we all come home from jobs thinking, I could have done this, or that... Bottom line is, as with everything in life; if you enjoy it, and you're not hurting anyone - keep doing it.
 
riddell said:
Well you wouldn't do that would you? Having shot close to 200 weddings I'm well aware of what kit is needed and I generally have just two bags with me. However re-iterating my earlier point, to every wedding I take along lighting which sits around just as a backup, should the weather be that bad. And I've had to get it out a few times mostly around winter weddings when its just too dark.

But I should add that I shoot on site a lot, advertising, fashion and commercial and do take along, setup and take down that much gear regularly. Just not at weddings.
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2 full bags to every wedding? Not sure I could be doing with that to be honest. So you take a full bag of lighting equipment I take it?

Garry Edwards said:
My take on this is that it doesn't matter much whether you're any good at portraits or not.
It doesn't matter whether skilled pro photographers like them, they're not the people you need to please
It doesn't matter whether whether the general public like them or not, you don't need to please them either
All that really matters, in terms of quality, is whether you like them or not.

Photography - of all sorts - is a highly subjective subject. People judge quality using criteria that is highly biased, such as style. So, whether an individual's work is popular or not is no indication whatever of its quality, in any measurable terms. Look at the work of some of the 'celebrity' photographers who give talks at photography events, run high priced training courses and so on - most of them just have verbal diarrhea, they talk the talk but they can't walk the walk. But even if I'm wrong about that, they don't have any skills that are beyond your own reach - just read, watch, study and learn. The technical aspects are pretty straightforward and the artistic aspects are covered by learned behaviour too.

But's it's really a simpler question altogether - do you enjoy portrait photography or not?
If you do, then you'll be motivated to learn, to experiment, to push your own limits. And if it's important to you then you'll learn quickly, you won't forget why something did or didn't work, because you'll have a passion for what you're doing.
But if you don't have that passiion and if you don't enjoy it, then my advice is to find something else to do
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Some great points there Gary, and I totally agree. To answer your question, I LOVE portrait photography. I love shooting it and working with people and get excited when I think I am on to a good idea. Then end up disappointed with the results. :(

GatoAzul1968 said:
"Fear of failure" is one of the business disease.... don't do it!
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I'm trying!

Jayst84 said:
If you're no good, then maybe, morally, you should give up - as in stop charging people for work. (Of course this doesn't apply to you Gareth, because your work is of a pretty good standard). Anyway, people should book you on your past work, so as long as you deliver the same or better, you're fine. Photographers generally aren't like the stock market, in that past performance is usually a pretty good indicator of future results.

As for the gear rant. I'm sure you (Gareth) are well aware that's worth ignoring. People shoot in different ways, to deal with different situations, in order to achieve different results. You shouldn't aim to shoot everything in every style possible. Shoot what you want, how you want, and people will come to you for it.

For what it's worth (which is nothing, because I'm not hiring either of you), after checking out portfolios, I would take you with no lights over Paul with a grip truck full of gear every day of the week. ;) I'm pretty sure you're not going to be competing in the same market anyway.

We all get fed up from time to time, we all come home from jobs thinking, I could have done this, or that... Bottom line is, as with everything in life; if you enjoy it, and you're not hurting anyone - keep doing it.
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Appreciate the kind words. Yes, there is no one right way and there rest are wrong. There are lots or 'right' ways. :)
 
I think what we've learnt here is that confidence is much more important than talent.

And that: No, you shouldn't give up if you're no good. It seems that being no good at photography won't stop you having a fairly successful business doing what you love. (provided you can gather the self confidence and you believe you're good enough)
 
Just looked at your photos on Flickr. MAGIC! If you pack in, I'd certainly have to!
Taking shots at two races tomorrow, it's the experience that does it for me and the banter from the runners who know me. Love it.
Images are nowhere near your standard. Who cares ... I do it because I enjoy it.
The guy with the glasses zooming into your lens is brilliant!
 
riddell said:
Well you wouldn't do that would you? Having shot close to 200 weddings I'm well aware of what kit is needed and I generally have just two bags with me. However re-iterating my earlier point, to every wedding I take along lighting which sits around just as a backup, should the weather be that bad. And I've had to get it out a few times mostly around winter weddings when its just too dark.

But I should add that I shoot on site a lot, advertising, fashion and commercial and do take along, setup and take down that much gear regularly. Just not at weddings.
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No such thing as bad natural light, it's just a lack of understanding how you use it.
 
Gareth.

You need to man up or go home.

Nearly every thread you have posted comes from this angle

"woe is me, I'm not good enough. I'm going to pack it in etc ..."

Then follows lots of people softly telling you you are good and stroking your ego ... until the next "woe is me post". Clearly it isn't working. You are still having these doubts.

Man the hell up!!!! Set yourself some realistic targets and work on achieving them. Go on workshops, seminars. Join some photographic bodies and enter images into competitions. Do a 365 project.

Just stop posting threads whining because it doesn't seem to be helping you in any way from what I can see.

This post may come across as harsh but I think you need a slap in the face with a wet fish.
 
"Fight or Flight" is a common occurrence with any uncomfortable situation, standing up to a bully, interviews, change at work. anything... To overcome them you have to tackle your fears head on, gain knowledge and confidence. Ultimately on these occasions there is only one person that can enable this to come to a positive conclusion.
 
Jayst84 said:
As for the gear rant...
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What gear rant? I'm simply advising people that you need the knowledge to know how to use everything. Weather its a rant or not, its simply about photographers attempting to go pro way, way before they are ready and having the knowledge and experience in the first place, which is the initial thing way before you get into the gear argument.


gazmorton2000 said:
2 full bags to every wedding? Not sure I could be doing with that to be honest. So you take a full bag of lighting equipment I take it?
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No of course not. I already said the lighting stays elsewhere. The two bags I have is all the usual cameras, lenses, batteries, memory cards etc. the other bag contains more backups of everything as well as even more batteries, chargers, memory cards etc.
 
there are plenty of people that are successful portrait and wedding photographers and quite frankly their work stinks. You don't have to be the best photographer in the world to be a successful one.

don't be so hard on yourself...your obviously doing ok if people are booking you on the strength of previous work. Get mates/relatives etc to sit for portrait sessions to help build confidence and technique.
 
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gazmorton2000 said:
Serious question. Whilst we have been here before, I can't help but think that I should pack in what I am trying to do. I seem to be getting somewhere with wedding photography. I have shot 2 this year with a third in October, then 6 confirmed for 215 and another enquiry today for 2016. The two posted on here have had what I would call positive feedback and whilst I am happy with that aspect, I really, really wanted to be a really good portrait photographer, yet it seems that every time I try, I fail. So then I put off shooting for fear of failure and for fear of letting down my subject with crap, underwhelming photographs. Because if I shoot someone, I must give them the images. Then they are out in the world, even if I don't like them or other people don't like them. Then word spreads that I'm just not very good. I feel at a bit of a loss tonight with the whole thing and, in some ways, wish I hadn't got so many weddings booked so I could just pack the whole thing in again. But then I think that those seem to be going well so I'm at a terrible crossroads. I have no one in real life like a girlfriend or partner I can ask or discuss with so am welcoming opinions here.
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If you value the approval of others above what you feel is good then you are doomed to failure. Stick to your guns, if you visualise a shot and can achieve it then that is your work done. If others don't like it, best they buy a camera and do it themselves. You are your own art and skill. Just be honest and stick with your style, it will either, please and pay, or it won't and won't

Thats it, you are selling your product which is your ability to record a moment in a desired style expected by your customer.

If you cant project your own style, you are effectively giving them free rein to say that what you have done isn't what they expected.

If they know what to expect and you deliver it, what can go wrong?? You are either good enough or not!

Steve.
 
I had a quick read back over your posts in this thread, and realise you must just be trolling.

riddell said:
yes its extremely vital that you go out get some quality flash heads Elinchrom, Bowens etc. at least 2, but budget to have at least 4 very shortly along with a selection of softboxes and reflectors etc. And also get yourself some bounces and flags and then learn how to use everything. Buy an old book on studio lighting. Forget any of the modern one, especially those with 'digital' in the title. Learn how to use and control light. Get a proper light meter. Start with inanimate objects and then progress to models, start with TFP models, then progress to paying for experienced models. Learn and study. Ask for and take and accept critique from professionals.
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I mean, nobody would really say that seriously would they? Especially not someone who claims to have been doing this as long as you.

riddell said:
What gear rant? I'm simply advising people that you need the knowledge to know how to use everything. Weather its a rant or not, its simply about photographers attempting to go pro way, way before they are ready and having the knowledge and experience in the first place, which is the initial thing way before you get into the gear argument.
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But as we all know, photographic skill has little correlation to business success.
 
riddell said:
What gear rant? I'm simply advising people that you need the knowledge to know how to use everything. Weather its a rant or not, its simply about photographers attempting to go pro way, way before they are ready and having the knowledge and experience in the first place, which is the initial thing way before you get into the gear argument...
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To be frank, I'd say that if you really have managed to build a successful business, you've proved the opposite.

Despite the fact you 'believe' you have learned all their is to learn, and how to use all this great gear. I'm afraid your work says the opposite. But it's not important, because if you're managing to get customers with your work, that's the important thing.

I have always read that quality of photography and business success have only a nodding relationship, and there's proof of it all over this thread, this forum and the internet at large. Of course; success is relative, whilst one guy is building a reputation for great work, he's concerned about bookings for next year, others have too much work, but that might just be down to low prices, others seem to be managing the work/earnings/life balance brilliantly, and at least one of my mates appears to have all but wound up (nothing to do with the quality of his work, or his confidence)

But the OP's question is all about confidence. And as the blunt have said; without confidence he will struggle in business. I personally, hope he can overcome his current crisis, because he's a nice guy and a great photographer.

As an aside, your website traffic over the last week will have done your Google ranking a favour.
 
riddell said:
Sure. Of course you can use just one light, but can't always use just one light. Just as I could demonstrate its ability on countless situations I can demonstrate just as many where I need a lot more.

And that's the really important thing - as a professional you need to be able to deal with any situation. Way too many newbies cling onto these real simple ideas such as natural light, one light, continuous light because they are either scared of, don't know how to use or can't afford a proper studio setup.

I started a shoot yesterday with 2 lights, 2x1m softboxes, basic 45 degrees. As the shoot progressed and the clothing changed I had to make about 3 or 4 changes. I'm still shooting the same shoot, but now its reflective white clothing. I now have 5 lights, 2 on the background with reflectors. A bounce light with a different reflector off the ceiling. A 2m softbox on one side and a tiny 50cm softbox on the other side as well as introducing 2 bounce boards and 2 black bounces.

Glancing over I'm utilising 13 stands and 23 clamps.

That's the point. That simple setup worked yesterday, but now the exact same clothing in a different coloured material needs a different and more complex setup. And its not just the one light thing, its the modifiers and bounces having a lot of effect on the image too.
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Then why do all your images look like you've used on camera flash, or no lighting at all when it was clearly needed? Your lighting is terrible.

I get very annoyed when people give "advice" when they clearly have no idea what they're doing.
 
After reading those comments I had to take a look and I completely agree. The lighting in that fellows work is some of the worst I have ever seen.
 
Jayst84 said:
But as we all know, photographic skill has little correlation to business success.
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Yet another one of the classic statements rolled out by wannabes....

Its been an interesting thread and to be honest all I'm doing is walking away with a continued confirmed belief that wannabes have a very filtered view of the world and believe what they want to believe and are very delusional.

Its interesting as it just confirms why whenever I need another photographer do I get so many amateurs apply for the job who really have no idea what they are doing and ultimately all this thread does it make it that much more difficult for me to even attempt to try any new photographers and realistically means that they are losing out on good paid work and experience.
 
riddell said:
Yet another one of the classic statements rolled out by wannabes....

Its been an interesting thread and to be honest all I'm doing is walking away with a continued confirmed belief that wannabes have a very filtered view of the world and believe what they want to believe and are very delusional.

Its interesting as it just confirms why whenever I need another photographer do I get so many amateurs apply for the job who really have no idea what they are doing and ultimately all this thread does it make it that much more difficult for me to even attempt to try any new photographers and realistically means that they are losing out on good paid work and experience.
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I genuinely don't know if you're being serious or not.
 
riddell said:
Yet another one of the classic statements rolled out by wannabes....
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Like it or not, it's also a truism - not just in photography. Business and marketing skills are more important to business success than technical skills, provided you are at least competent enough to provide a service which satisfies your customers.
 
theurbanclown said:
I genuinely don't know if you're being serious or not.
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I don't think it even matters any more.

Either Paul is the only 'professional' photographer who's contributed to this thread, or he's the only photographer who hasn't got a clue.

To judge that, all you need to do is measure his work against the other posters.

Of course, he could be a genius, and the FB page and website could be set up as a ruse to make suckers of us.
 
Put it this way. If paul is right then I sure as hell want to be as wrong as is possible so that I am the complete polar opposite of his offering
 
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I don't like to slate a pro's work in public unless they're asking for crit so I'll reserve judgement on Riddell's website. He's obviously doing something right, even if that isn't the photography.
 
The23rdman said:
I don't like to slate a pro's work in public unless they're asking for crit so I'll reserve judgement on Riddell's website. He's obviously doing something right, even if that isn't the photography.
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I see what you did there :exit:
 
The23rdman said:
I don't like to slate a pro's work in public unless they're asking for crit so I'll reserve judgement on Riddell's website. He's obviously doing something right, even if that isn't the photography.
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I wouldn't have gone this far, but several subtle 'we've seen your work, you might want to be less forthright' posts were ignored.

Talking down to people as if you're the best photographer in the world is always a bad idea but even worse when it's clearly unfounded.
 
Phil V said:
I wouldn't have gone this far, but several subtle 'we've seen your work, you might want to be less forthright' posts were ignored.

Talking down to people as if you're the best photographer in the world is always a bad idea but even worse when it's clearly unfounded.
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Agreed. If he'd been more humble to start with nobody would have even checked his work out.

He talks a good game though eh...
 
gazmorton2000 said:
Serious question. Whilst we have been here before, I can't help but think that I should pack in what I am trying to do. I seem to be getting somewhere with wedding photography. I have shot 2 this year with a third in October, then 6 confirmed for 215 and another enquiry today for 2016. The two posted on here have had what I would call positive feedback and whilst I am happy with that aspect, I really, really wanted to be a really good portrait photographer, yet it seems that every time I try, I fail. So then I put off shooting for fear of failure and for fear of letting down my subject with crap, underwhelming photographs. Because if I shoot someone, I must give them the images. Then they are out in the world, even if I don't like them or other people don't like them. Then word spreads that I'm just not very good. I feel at a bit of a loss tonight with the whole thing and, in some ways, wish I hadn't got so many weddings booked so I could just pack the whole thing in again. But then I think that those seem to be going well so I'm at a terrible crossroads. I have no one in real life like a girlfriend or partner I can ask or discuss with so am welcoming opinions here.
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Hi Gaz,

You have to get past this feeling that you're not very good. You're producing great stuff. One of the problems I find is that I am the harshest critic of my own work, I've only just got to a stage where I feel it is getting to the standard I want. But in all the while I've been shooting I've not had one bad customer review, they all love my work.

There are two things I have found that have increased my ability and my confidence. The first is to shoot as much as possible, then shoot some more and then, well I think you get it. The second was to take a look at the websites of my local competition and to use that as a guide point as to how I feel I am progressing.

Like you, I've taken on a few jobs because the money was attractive, even though they aren't exactly what I want to be doing. On a couple of occasions I've been surprised how much I ended up enjoying the shoots, and others where it has confirmed my feelings. What is in common with every job I've done is that I've learnt from the experience and my confidence has grown.

There is no certificate, plaque or award that you'll get when you're a pro photographer. When I first started out I felt like I was playing a role, almost pretending. However, one morning you'll wake up and realise that that is just what you are.

Don't be so harsh on yourself, there are photographers out there making good money who are producing work that isn't close to your standard, and there are always going to be photographers who you feel are better, too.

Very best of luck, I hope you stick at it and become the photographer you want to be!

Jenny
 
riddell said:
Yet another one of the classic statements rolled out by wannabes....

.
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I'd be happy to be a wannabe if it avoids producing work as utterly unaccomplished as yours.

You're giving all this advice about wedding photography to Gareth, yet his work wipes the floor with yours. He lacks confidence is all... I can see Django's point... Gareth does seem to get all bogged down in self-pity, but we've all been there, and sometimes you just need to hear nice things. However, advice like having a car full of studio lighting being something a wedding photographer needs, when you clearly don't bloody well use any is just complicating things, giving bad advice, and what's more... hasn't helped YOU, so why mention it?
 
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Pookeyhead said:
I'd be happy to be a wannabe if it avoids producing work as utterly unaccomplished as yours.

You're giving all this advice about wedding photography to Gareth, yet his work wipes the floor with yours. He lacks confidence is all... I can see Django's point... Gareth does seem to get all bogged down in self-pity, but we've all been there, and sometimes you just need to hear nice things. However, advice like having a car full of studio lighting being something a wedding photographer needs, when you clearly don't bloody well use any is just complicating things, giving bad advice, and what's more... hasn't helped YOU, so why mention it?
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is there a prize for best post on TP each year?

if so I think we just saw it right here
 
Pookeyhead said:
I'd be happy to be a wannabe if it avoids producing work as utterly unaccomplished as yours.

You're giving all this advice about wedding photography to Gareth, yet his work wipes the floor with yours. He lacks confidence is all... I can see Django's point... Gareth does seem to get all bogged down in self-pity, but we've all been there, and sometimes you just need to hear nice things. However, advice like having a car full of studio lighting being something a wedding photographer needs, when you clearly don't bloody well use any is just complicating things, giving bad advice, and what's more... hasn't helped YOU, so why mention it?
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We're talking about a guy who uses 'colour popping' extensively in his wedding portfolio. With awesome and not-at-all-dated PP skills like that surely you don't need a Transit full of OCF equipment right?!
 
riddell said:
Yet another one of the classic statements rolled out by wannabes....

Its been an interesting thread and to be honest all I'm doing is walking away with a continued confirmed belief that wannabes have a very filtered view of the world and believe what they want to believe and are very delusional.

Its interesting as it just confirms why whenever I need another photographer do I get so many amateurs apply for the job who really have no idea what they are doing and ultimately all this thread does it make it that much more difficult for me to even attempt to try any new photographers and realistically means that they are losing out on good paid work and experience.
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This is descending into even more of a slanging match now.

All I'll say is, I wish I had your marketing skills.
 
Wow. Lots of replies since I was last here. Definitely not going to attempt to multi-quote all of them!

What I will say, in response to @JennyGW, is that I have not, since starting this earlier this year, taken on a job for money that I don't really want to do. And I can't see me doing so in the immediate future. I want to get good at primarily weddings. I didn't get into shooting weddings for the money. I started to do it because, looking at other wedding photographers work whom I admire, I wanted to be able to do that. I think it's amazing to be a great wedding photographer and that is primarily my objective. But I also love portraiture. Great photos of people that capture something about them. That's what I am now trying to improve. I am a little tempted to work with some models again to primarily work on my interaction and to see if i can realise some of the images in my head.

@CanonDjango , You are absolutely right with the tough words. I do appreciate the comment. As above, I have goals and I am going to keep trying to achieve them. I just wish I knew which direction to go in. It's tricky.

I'm not going to get into any debates about other peoples work who have posted here but I do appreciate all the comments. I think it has been an interesting thread to be honest that has raised some good points for me, and perhaps for other people who have felt similar.

And I must also say, I WILL NOT shoot anything and everything just for money. Photography for me is not primarily about being a business. The moeny/business side of it is hopefully a by-product of producing good wedding photography that people would love to have. That's the goal anyway.
 
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