Profoto B1

matty D

matty D

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I've been trying to research which portable lights to get, and keep coming back to the Profoto B1's. Can anyone offer any advise as to whether these will be fast enough to freeze a dog shaking off water please?

I'm aware that the claimed 1/19,000 is at lowest power (2ws!) and is t0.5. But at 4 stops down from max power (30Ws) the duration is 1/10,000, so about 1/3000 t0.1. Would this be enough light to do what I want in a darkened barn?

Thanks in advance!
 
matty D said:
I've been trying to research which portable lights to get, and keep coming back to the Profoto B1's. Can anyone offer any advise as to whether these will be fast enough to freeze a dog shaking off water please?

I'm aware that the claimed 1/19,000 is at lowest power (2ws!) and is t0.5. But at 4 stops down from max power (30Ws) the duration is 1/10,000, so about 1/3000 t0.1. Would this be enough light to do what I want in a darkened barn?

Thanks in advance!
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If B1 is in budget, it's the best you'll get. I doubt that you'd need to go to minimum power to get what you want. T.5 times for IGBT-type flash are very close to real shutter speed equivalents so you're getting very brief true flash durations there.

Depending on exactly what you want, I would imagine you could get something pretty good without needing a B1. Lencarta Atom or similar, or speedlites would probably do the trick if you push the ISO a bit. Do you have mains power? Then consider Lencarta SuperFast heads.
 
HoppyUK said:
If B1 is in budget, it's the best you'll get. I doubt that you'd need to go to minimum power to get what you want. T.5 times for IGBT-type flash are very close to real shutter speed equivalents so you're getting very brief true flash durations there.

Depending on exactly what you want, I would imagine you could get something pretty good without needing a B1. Lencarta Atom or similar, or speedlites would probably do the trick if you push the ISO a bit. Do you have mains power? Then consider Lencarta SuperFast heads.
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Thanks for the reply, yes B1's are in budget, and I'm glad you think it will be fast enough. It won't be used just for shaking dogs, but general location work and a lot of dog photography. The TTL is very appealing for working with dogs, as trying to re-meter everytime the dog moves would be impractical.

I did think about speed lights, but unless I can guarantee line of sight, I'd have to invest in loads of triggers as well as the speed lights, and then there's the hassle of all the batteries...

I also looked at super fasts, but I don't think I will have access to mains power very often. Not looked at the Atoms, will have to do so.
 
(y)

All I would say is, with flash in daylight you will need plenty of power and may have problems around x-sync speed with moving subjects. Has Profoto sorted proper high speed sync with the B1 yet? Latest I heard was they're still working on it, and IMHO it's the B1's only weakness.
 
HoppyUK said:
(y)

All I would say is, with flash in daylight you will need plenty of power and may have problems around x-sync speed with moving subjects. Has Profoto sorted proper high speed sync with the B1 yet? Latest I heard was they're still working on it, and IMHO it's the B1's only weakness.
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I was told by a guy at Profoto UK that their firmware update is imminent, but then he would say that.... I know, HSS is its weakness, but i think its only a matter of time.
 
matty D said:
I was told by a guy at Profoto UK that their firmware update is imminent, but then he would say that.... I know, HSS is its weakness, but i think its only a matter of time.
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I don't know this for fact, but my hunch would be HSS requires a change in the hardware rather than a few lines of firmware code. Maybe just a new tube, but I really don't know if it's that easy. Would be a killer feature though.

Maybe Garry has some knowledge, as I think the Lencarta Atom is waiting for a similar upgrade.
 
I can't really think of any way that I could easily test it for you, I don't have any pooches to hand - but I've certainly been _very_ happy with my B1. If you're anywhere near London, why not rent one to see how you get on with it? Get it from Procentre and they'll refund a day's rental if you then buy one iirc
 
itsdavedotnet said:
I can't really think of any way that I could easily test it for you, I don't have any pooches to hand - but I've certainly been _very_ happy with my B1. If you're anywhere near London, why not rent one to see how you get on with it? Get it from Procentre and they'll refund a day's rental if you then buy one iirc
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Thanks for the suggestion, but i have already bitten the bullet and ordered one :) From everything that I have read, and been told about them, I'm sure I won't be disappointed
 
enjoy it, it's frankly the unrivalled best go-to battery light on the market. The new remote system is brilliant too.
 
UaeExile said:
The B1's are completely wireless.

If I'm not mistaken the Phottix Indra500 is powered by a battery pack or mains?
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it's an internal battery pack, so no wires. Am waiting for them to be on sale somewhere..

Edit - ignore me, i'm an idiot. Was thinking of something else!
 
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I have the B1's and they're great for what they do. However if I was you and really needed HSS, I'd wait til the firmware update is available (not hardware update needed apparently as the hardware is already capable). If you really needed a high power portable light right now that does HSS then perhaps maybe the iLux Summit or Lencarta Safari would do the job. I have the old Li-On Safari too and its great and will do HSS (provided you have decent triggers).

Profoto are taking their time with updates - the Nikon TTL remote was suppose to start shipping with Q1 of this year but only in September were they finally released...
 
kman said:
I have the B1's and they're great for what they do. However if I was you and really needed HSS, I'd wait til the firmware update is available (not hardware update needed apparently as the hardware is already capable). If you really needed a high power portable light right now that does HSS then perhaps maybe the iLux Summit or Lencarta Safari would do the job. I have the old Li-On Safari too and its great and will do HSS (provided you have decent triggers).

Profoto are taking their time with updates - the Nikon TTL remote was suppose to start shipping with Q1 of this year but only in September were they finally released...
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None of those flash units does proper High Speed Sync (or FP-Sync in Nikon-speak) like speedlites, ie rapid pulsing/strobing of the flash to simulate continuous light. What they offer is tail-sync - sometimes called hypersync, or supersync or whatever - and it is not the same thing at all. Neither is it anything new - it's an easy workaround bodge to do that with any flash unit and a basic trigger.
 
kman said:
I have the B1's and they're great for what they do. However if I was you and really needed HSS, I'd wait til the firmware update is available (not hardware update needed apparently as the hardware is already capable). If you really needed a high power portable light right now that does HSS then perhaps maybe the iLux Summit or Lencarta Safari would do the job. I have the old Li-On Safari too and its great and will do HSS (provided you have decent triggers).

Profoto are taking their time with updates - the Nikon TTL remote was suppose to start shipping with Q1 of this year but only in September were they finally released...
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To add to what Richard said.
The Safari2 doesn't do tail sync as well as the old Safari LiIon. IIRC the iLux does it a little better, but it is still a bodge, and if someone has the budget for the B1, then they really should buy the B1.
 
mike weeks said:
Powered by the battery pack or mains whereas you can't power the B1 by mains (not 100% sure of that) so rather have the Indra
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True, the B1 has no main option. However, what I don't get is what is the advantage of the Indra500 over a system like the Quadra which was introduced years ago, other than TTL? The whole idea of the B1 is the lack of cords and battery packs :)
The Flashpoint looks like a more suitable competitor to the B1 IMHO:

http://flashhavoc.com/flashpoint-rovelight-rl-600-now-available/
 
hijazist said:
True, the B1 has no main option. However, what I don't get is what is the advantage of the Indra500 over a system like the Quadra which was introduced years ago, other than TTL? The whole idea of the B1 is the lack of cords and battery packs :)
The Flashpoint looks like a more suitable competitor to the B1 IMHO:

http://flashhavoc.com/flashpoint-rovelight-rl-600-now-available/
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The various Chinese factories are now producing bucketloads of these studio flash heads with built in batteries, they are all virtually the same, the only thing that varies between them is the claims made for them - and of those I've personally seen, the claims are exaggerated and basically false.

The next new thing is TTL, which for most people isn't even a real benefit. And, mostly, when TTL is claimed it doesn't work as expected anyway.
Add into the mix the fact that most of these Chinese factories don't have a dealer network (their products are sold via Ebay) with no real warranty, the fact that even when they do have dealers those dealers don't have any repair facilities (because the factories don't provide any technical support or spares) and the fact that reliability can be a real issue, the people who want a Profoto BI have a simple decision to make - either get a B1, which is expensive for what it is but which is fully supported by a good manufacturer, or don't get one - the 'cheap' option of getting something 'similar' could end up as a expensive 'economy'.
 
The new Broncolor Siros S with an external battery pack like the Godox LP-800X would be where I would aim if looking at buying quality action stopping lights. The Siros have the option of a flash tube upgrade as I believe they do proper HSS and need a stronger tube to compensate for the heat build up of pulse flashes (as against long burn).

The Profoto B1 HSS will be a half baked software hack as against a hardware option of the extra flash tube enabling true HSS in the Bron Siros.
 
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HoppyUK said:
(y)

All I would say is, with flash in daylight you will need plenty of power and may have problems around x-sync speed with moving subjects.
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+1. There's really no other way around it. ND's to kill the ambient require higher power settings which means longer durations. Using the ambient more means the ambient will blur... 500ws probably isn't enough in daylight.

But in a darkened barn it should be adequate.
 
Garry Edwards said:
The various Chinese factories are now producing bucketloads of these studio flash heads with built in batteries, they are all virtually the same, the only thing that varies between them is the claims made for them - and of those I've personally seen, the claims are exaggerated and basically false.
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I don't *really* want to be a jerk, but aren't most of the Lencarta models just rebranded Godox (SuperFast/QT, Atom/AD, etc)? I know the deal/process and I don't have "a problem with it," but if you're going to bash the Chinese manufacturers...

I do agree that TTL can be as much of a hindrance as a benefit... How far exactly are the dogs allowed to move in relation to the lighting positions/distances? I wouldn't expect it to make much more than 1/2-1 stop difference in the manual exposures.
 
sk66 said:
I don't *really* want to be a jerk, but aren't most of the Lencarta models just rebranded Godox (SuperFast/QT, Atom/AD, etc)? I know the deal/process and I don't have "a problem with it," but if you're going to bash the Chinese manufacturers...

I do agree that TTL can be as much of a hindrance as a benefit... How far exactly are the dogs allowed to move in relation to the lighting positions/distances? I wouldn't expect it to make much more than 1/2-1 stop difference in the manual exposures.
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No, that's true of the Atom, which is a rebranded Godox, but not the others, which are all our own products sitting inside Godox or Jinbei boxes, with different performance and different specs.

In terms of capability, China is right up there with the very best (China didn't become the world's strongest economy based on nothing more than price) and their engineers and their manufacturing plants in their technology areas are superb.

But that isn't what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is the relatively low-tech products that can be made (badly) by any back street factory employing unskilled migrant labour. These factories take products made by others, and copy them badly, taking any shortcut that will reduce their costs and many of them don't have
1. Quality engineers
2. Quality control systems or adequate supervision
3. Knowledge of photography, i.e. any real understanding of photographer's needs
4. Business ethics, i.e. they will happily invent performance figures, or nick them from someone else's website.

If you'd been inside as many of these factories as I have, you'd agree with me. I've tested products with ambitious claims, such as IGBT battery powered lights, that are made in what is nothing more than a low tech sheet metal factory. After travelling from one side of China to the other (because of the claims made for this particular product) I tested both flash energy output, with a standard flash meter, and colour temperature (with a colour temperature meter) and found that the performance claims for both were totally false - which wasn't really surprising as nobody at the factory had carried out any tests, didn't have any meters and didn't even know what they were...

Another example of this is LED technology. There are some Chinese factories that are producing excellent products that are now taking the movie making world by storm - but most of the LED lighting sold as photographic uses cheap components designed for security lighing, and is totally unsuitable for the purpose.

All that I'm saying here is don't assume that a product is better than something else just because the seller claims that the specs are better:)
 
matty D said:
I did think about speed lights, but unless I can guarantee line of sight, I'd have to invest in loads of triggers as well as the speed lights, and then there's the hassle of all the batteries...
.
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You don't need line of sight to the speed lights... I have both studio lights (Not B1's) and then 4 Canon 600-EX-RT flashguns.. and then the ST-ET-RT control, works perfectly even when the speed lights are not with-in line of sight and also gives the great chance to change settings without walking to each flash and doing it from there.
I know Speedlights are no Profoto B1's ... but they do a great job for fraction of the cost ;-)
 
GooGaBu said:
I know Speedlights are no Profoto B1's ... but they do a great job for fraction of the cost ;-)
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Only relative to the B1, you'd have a hard time describing the Canon 600s as a fraction of most everything else as they're what £400 each?
 
Garry Edwards said:
No, that's true of the Atom, which is a rebranded Godox, but not the others, which are all our own products sitting inside Godox or Jinbei boxes, with different performance and different specs.

In terms of capability, China is right up there with the very best (China didn't become the world's strongest economy based on nothing more than price) and their engineers and their manufacturing plants in their technology areas are superb.
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I'm well aware that when you order a custom run you can spec components up/down... and you can, of course, have a factory produce a completely unique/custom product (which they will immediately "knock off" typically). Either way, it's nice to know the stuff isn't "just" a rebrand.

All that I'm saying here is don't assume that a product is better than something else just because the seller claims that the specs are better:)
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I've found that to be pretty true of almost every product from every manufacturer... "specs" are often based upon some unknown non-standard or benefit from something "unique" like a different reflector design.

But yeah, China is pretty bad for consistently overrating their products... even most of the better brands.
 
The new Broncolor Siros S with an external battery pack like the Godox LP-800X would be where I would aim if looking at buying quality action stopping lights. The Siros have the option of a flash tube upgrade as I believe they do proper HSS and need a stronger tube to compensate for the heat build up of pulse flashes (as against long burn).
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The Bron sirios are wicked lights. Ridiculous spec, good prices (vs profoto D1s), really cool wifi remote control from an ipad app...

Speaking to a Bron rep the other day though, there's not a battery version in the near future, they've got their Mobil pack+head system for that (which is also very very neat)
 
itsdavedotnet said:
The Bron sirios are wicked lights. Ridiculous spec, good prices (vs profoto D1s), really cool wifi remote control from an ipad app...

Speaking to a Bron rep the other day though, there's not a battery version in the near future, they've got their Mobil pack+head system for that (which is also very very neat)
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They do look amazing and like you say, good value compared to the D1s, but from what I've seen, the price of accessories is insane :eek:
 
mm, not cheap, though for soft mods at least, just get 3rd party, calumet, profoto or chimeria (in increasing expense there ;) ) mods with bron rings
 
simonbarker said:
Can you even buy the Siros yet?
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Just checked and the Siros will not be available until the 15th January 2015, however I feel they will be worth the wait.

UaeExile said:
They do look amazing and like you say, good value compared to the D1s, but from what I've seen, the price of accessories is insane :eek:
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Not sure what accessories you refer to but the L40 standard reflectors are only £40+VAT and the set of three grids for these only £125+VAT which are Bowens/Elinchrom territory and while not the cheap crappy eBay Chinese reflector prices they won't be made as badly as those either. As for softboxes, the new Broncolor ones are very reasonably priced considering their quality of construction and will last years of punishment. Some Bron accessories are expensive like the beauty dish but the thickness of metals used is a better grade than normal (cheaper) alternatives plus you could always buy other brands of modifiers with Bron fittings if you prefer not to spend as much.

Bron reflectors like the P70/P65/P45 while a little more expensive do have a beautiful centre weighted pattern with great fall off and sharp cut which I love rather than the boring homogenous pattern most other manufacturers reflectors seem to favour.
 
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gazwas said:
Not sure what accessories you refer to but the L40 standard reflectors are only £40+VAT and the set of three grids for these only £125+VAT which are Bowens/Elinchrom territory and while not the cheap crappy eBay Chinese reflector prices they won't be made as badly as those either. As for softboxes, the new Broncolor ones are very reasonably priced considering their quality of construction and will last years of punishment. Some Bron accessories are expensive like the beauty dish but the thickness of metals used is a better grade than normal (cheaper) alternatives plus you could always buy other brands of modifiers with Bron fittings if you prefer not to spend as much.
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It's their own fault for making all these nifty special application modifiers, which is great until you see the price tag which seems to have a few extra zeroes but this goes as much for Profoto as it does Broncolor.

I get the impression Broncolor is less popular in the UK as I can only find a few places with decent stock, it's a shame.
 
simonbarker said:
I get the impression Broncolor is less popular in the UK as I can only find a few places with decent stock, it's a shame.
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Not so sure, I think Bron is more popular than you realise. Up until the release of the B1, Profoto only had a handful of dealers in the UK. Hopefully the Siros will help increase Broncolors profile to a wider and younger gereration of photographers and make it more accessible. I imagine most photographers who own Bron kit use it for years as it just doesn't break so rarely crops up used. I've seen Bron Flashman heads from the 1980's on eBay that look and function as well as they did when bought new that still work on current Bron packs today - amazing!

Profoto has a big rental market so has a bigger presence than Bron but it would be interesting to see some numbers of photographers who own their gear between Profoto and Bron.
 
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gazwas said:
Not so sure, I think Bron is more popular than you realise. Up until the release of the B1, Profoto only had a handful of dealers in the UK. Hopefully the Siros will help increase Broncolors profile to a wider and younger gereration of photographers and make it more accessible. I imagine most photographers who own Bron kit use it for years as it just doesn't break so rarely crops up used. I've seen Bron Flashman heads from the 1980's on eBay that look and function as well as they did when bought new that still work on current Bron packs today - amazing!

Profoto has a big rental market so has a bigger presence than Bron but it would be interesting to see some numbers of photographers who own their gear between Profoto and Bron.
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From my experience as a freelance assistant in the London non-still life advertising and high end editorial markets, for the relatively rare photographers who own their gear, it's mostly profoto. I almost exclusively worked with people photographers though, I'd imagine that there will be a larger percentage of still lifers who have bron
 
Excellent new feature, and real HSS to boot!

Can't wait to hear user reports on how it works.
 
Just had a quick play in the house, nothing scientific, but I can confirm the firmware update is very simple, takes about 1 minute.

It works faultlessly right up to 1/8000 with full TTL.

I didn't do anything sophisticated, I just put the unit in the corner of my bedroom, 1/8000th f10 I could get a good exposure of the room using TTL, f11 and the unit would beep warning me of underexposure, but it was still ok, f16 not useable
 
The problem with "proper" HSS is you also get very low power from it. The reason it's beeping it f/11 is it can't deliver enough power and keep up w/ the SS. It's probably at it's lowest power already in order to keep up.

The best solution for killing the sun is usually high power and ND's. The best solution for freezing motion is usually low power/short durations from short distances (in a darker environment). The next best option for doing either is really short durations/low power matched to a high SS (HSS).

In your situation you could reasonably expect a T.1 of 1/8000 at min power (possibly higher) as opposed to a 1/8000 SS at min power HSS. The advantage of the first is battery savings. The advantage of the second is that it doesn't require a darker setting.
For all the IGBT heads I've seen actual test measurements for the T.5 is very close to the T.1 at anything but 1:1 and the low power settings (<1/16). At 1:1 it seems to be around 1/3 (3x as long) and at low power it seems to be around 1/2 (2x as long). So you might have almost as fast of a T.1 at ~ 1/16th as you would at minimum.

But I don't think you will need 1/8000 to freeze water being slung off a dog. I think 1/4000 would probably be adequate. The point is, you'll probably have a fast enough flash duration at 1/8-1/16th power with reasonable power and less battery usage. HSS is nice to have, but it's not necessarily your best choice.
 
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