HD Drones etc

Peter69

Peter69

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I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this question but.....

I'm looking to buy my first drone for HD video.
Mostly it will be used for armature sports like surfing, BMX, Skate boarding and mountain biking.
It will need a reasonable range and a good HD camera preferably with high fps.

From the little I know, the DJI Phantom with gps appears to do what I want but its a bit too rich for my budget.

Any help or redirection would be much appreciated
 
Don't spend too much because it's looking increasingly likely that legislation will soon be enacted to massively curb what the public can do with drones, or prevent them from using them at all.
 
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Not too worried about that as it will always be used on private land. Although I know exactly where you are coming from with all the negative publicity and scare stories surrounding them. So far in the UK injures due to drones 0 reported - America & UK governments are spreading the disinformation with the word COULD.

Deaths caused by government drones approx.6500 last year!!
 
working on private land with punters on it, will mean you should consider PL insurance.
a friend of mine was looking at the phantom vision plus 3 or something but it's a grand.
the other would be something with a mountable go pro, but then I hear they don't pan/tilt properly.
 
The vision plus camera still is nothing special, although the gimbal is very good.
For serious video you want to be using a gopro 3 or 4 and the Phantom 2 with Zenmeuse gimbal is probably the best way to fly it.
You might look at used ones if the price is concerning. Some of the more serious users are looking at upgrading to the new Inspire.

You absolutely do need a proper gimbal although while learning it's going to be a bit vulnerable to crashes if you haven't flown one before.
 
If have to get a camera it will probably be an Ion.
PL license/ insurance needed?
 
Why not go down the self build route?
How good are your soldering/model making skills?

The reason I say this is because it will work out around half the price of anything that DJI offer RTF and you can build larger or smaller depending on your needs/budget.
Also make sure you can get a gimbal for the camera you wish to use, that's why the GoPro is recommended, lots of gimbals to choose from, I use a Tarot T-2D and GoPro Hero 3 on my hex and it's very stable.

:)
 
Rob 80386 said:
Also make sure you can get a gimbal for the camera you wish to use, that's why the GoPro is recommended, lots of gimbals to choose from, I use a Tarot T-2D and GoPro Hero 3 on my hex and it's very stable.

:)
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Agree, 3 or 4 years ago it was all new and exciting but now jerky wobbly stuff without a gimbal is barely usable - and filming a sport event even in calm conditions it will be hard to move sedately around to minimise wobbles!
Also being able to see and frame what the camera sees is almost essential I would say.
 
4wd said:
Agree, 3 or 4 years ago it was all new and exciting but now jerky wobbly stuff without a gimbal is barely usable - and filming a sport event even in calm conditions it will be hard to move sedately around to minimise wobbles!
Also being able to see and frame what the camera sees is almost essential I would say.
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In that case a 5.8GHz VTx and a monitor unless you want to go full immersion the Fatshark Dominator V.2.2 or HD's would be needed, I use the FS Dominator V2.2 and they rock, nice big bright screen, perfect for slow filming of fast and low FPV :)
 
The CAA rules state the pilot must be in visual contact with the drone at all times. So does the assistant watch this screen?
 
CAA? I can't afford a MQ-9
I was interested to read that the new DJI's software won't allow flying in restricted air space.
Is having FPV the same as visual contact?
 
Not really, it's more for framing your shots, the guidelines say you should always be able to see it, but your FPV compliments seeing it, as it helps you know which way it's pointing and how close you are to objects. Once it gets any distance away that's surprisingly difficult to judge even when you can easily see it.

Realistically it's easy to lose sight of a phantom by about 200 metres even if you stare fixedly at it - if you momentarily look away you often just can't spot it again!
Less than that if light and contrast are poor.
However it's no big deal as the controls can be used to bring it back towards the start point easily enough.
Using to film sports action you'd have it pretty close or even almost overhead a lot of the time.
 
I concur with what 4wd has said.

The Phantom range will probably give the best quality and features for the price. Not many cheaper (and thus smaller) aircraft have the capacity to carry a camera and gimbal to stabilse it (withouth a gimbal, the footage will look appalling from vibrations and jerky movements).

CAA is the Civil Aviation Authority. They regulate the airspace, type certifications etc, and prosecute all airspace matters not relating to the military.

Small Unmanned Aircraft (SUA) (quadcopters et al) are mainly covered in sections 166 and 167 of the Air Navigation Order 2009. Basically, if the aircraft has a camera that is recording, it's classed as a SUSA (small unmanned surveillance aircraft), and has a number of distance and height limits, so as an example, you can't fly it within 150m or over groups of 1000 people of more, or built up/congested areas, or within 50m of people not under you direct control. If you want to charge for any footage taken from the aircraft, you need CAA Permission for Aerial Work (PfAW), which requires completion of 1 of 2 approved training courses (currently ~£1,600).

I fly a Phantom 2 with H3-3D gimbal with a Hero 3+ Black in. Super smooth footage although I'm looking at switching that out for a Hero 4 Black soon, mainly to get higher frame rates at 2.7k.
 
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@harryb thanks that is really useful info.
So if the video doesn't record (or is that, have the ability to record?) different rules apply?
Does the fpv feature mean you are visual control of the device?
Can you be paid for your time and give the footage away for free i.e on youtube & escape the training fee?

I'm also interested in the 'ring fencing' that is built in to new devices. Is this based on GPS maps or some kind of exclusion zone signal sent out?
Knowing nothing about gopros either, can they have a telephoto adaptor fitted?
 
Apologies, I've only just seen these posts.

@Peter69 - correct, if the data isn't being recorded, ie the camera is on but not recording, then slightly different rules apply regarding distances to objects etc.

FPV does not mean you are in visual line of sight of the device. This has to be your eye to the aircraft, and you're eye can't be aided by binoculars etc. Glasses are ok.

It's not just payment for the footage, it's anything that is considered "valuable consideration". The CAA give an example of doing some aerial filming for a friend. If the friend buys you a pint as a thank you, no issue, you haven't gained anything valuable. If the friend buys you a crate of beers, then that would probably count as valuable consideration, and thus you would technically be in breach of the Air Navigation Order.

You can't take payment in any respect for aerial work without the the CAA's Permission for Aerial Work. Taking payment for your time would count as aerial work, as would taking payment for editing time and providing the footage free. It becomes a grey area if you film the stuff, give your mate the footage for free, he then edits and charges the client for editing time only. I wouldn't want to risk it. Several people have already been cautioned formally for undertaking aerial work without a PfAW.


@beyond the blue - I went for the Hero 4 Black in the end, but have decided to keep the 3+ Black as a backup camera, and for non aerial action stuff :)
 
Sorry @Peter69, I failed to answer the second part of your post.

The ring fencing is done via GPS and is set by the manufacturer around a specific lat long position, and radius (with a variety of height restrictions the further out you get). Not all manufacturers use it, and there is no defined list of locations they should include. For example I can fly next to a large regional airport without issue, but go 40 miles down the road, and another large regional airport, and I'm restricted when flying close the the airfield perimeter. These, eg Robin Hood, are class B airports in the DJI software, so have a small no fly zone. Class A, ie Manchester etc, have the same no fly zone, but then have an extended zone where the quadcopter height is restricted by the software.


You can modify a GoPro to fit a range of interchangable lenses, but you won't be using the camera in it's waterproof casing again. Would be cheaper to buy a low end DSLR and lens. You can also remove the stock lens on the 3+ (and possibly the 3 & 4), and screw in a longer lens, as it uses the same thread as a lot of CCTV camera lenses. Lots, such as the Rage Cams lenses, are sold with extortionate markup (same lens can be had for around 1/3 price), but some report massive drops in image quality. It may also require any stabilising gimbal used with the GoPro (such as on a quadcopter) is rebalanced, and obviously voids the GoPro warranty.

The GoPro has 3 lens settings, which are Ultra Wide, Medium and Narrow. It basically crops the image, but uses the extra sensor size to ensure IQ isn't lost. Not all 3 are available in all resolutions though. For flying, I use Medium field of view, which is available upto 2.7k. It makes a massive difference, but the fish eye effect from wide FOV can be fixed in the GoPro studio software anyway :)
 
I can see why Alan Sugar moans about the CAA (I wonder if he ever did fit his microwave with the expensive sticker on it).
At the moment it looks like I need to spend £1k or more. I was hoping for £500 or less. I also didn't know they were man enough to carry a DSLR
 
Peter69 said:
I can see why Alan Sugar moans about the CAA (I wonder if he ever did fit his microwave with the expensive sticker on it).
At the moment it looks like I need to spend £1k or more. I was hoping for £500 or less. I also didn't know they were man enough to carry a DSLR
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Yep. To do it commercially you are looking at £2k+ (£1,600 for the BNUC-S/RPQ-S + insurance), plus a reliable rig like an S900 and a GH4. You can do it commercially with a Phantom 2 and GoPro, but the IQ isn't there for a lot of the higher end work.

You can fit a slightly longer lens to the GoPro, but unless it's on a high end gimbal and balanced, the video (and possibly stills) will be a blurry mess.

Sorry, I misunderstood the point about the telephoto lens initially. Obviously a Phantom won't lift a DLSR, but any long range images aren't going to be easy, even with a GoPro. Best bet would be shoot in 4K and crop down if you want video, or use a small P+S for stills. Even the Hexa's and Octo's usually carry a camera with a specific, fairly wide lens (around 24mm), and most gimbals are unsuitable for any telephoto work.
 
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Can't rate these guys enough http://www.unmannedtechshop.co.uk/

A friend of mine bought an iris+ from them & got a great service. But something that he found was this, don't expect to get perfect results first time. It took him a few months of playing around to start nailing the shots he wanted.

Also it's best to practice flying a 'cheap' quad before sending £800 odd of gear up into the sky & loosing it after 5 mins. Ignore the YouTube videos, flying a quad isn't easy, even with all the autopilot gear on board. It's always best to learn with a small cheap quad before you start out with something more expensive.
 
The problem with practising on a cheap quad is that it might just put you off flying a quad altogether. A cheap quad won't have gps or altitude hold or basically stay where it is if you panic and take your thumbs off the sticks. A cheap quad will need constant inputs of the controls to keep it even hovering, a Phantom 2 with a Zenmuse H3 3D gimbal with cosy you around £700 ( without a go pro) but you will be flying it spectacularly well in a couple of hours or less. If you get totally disorientated with it, just flick a switch and it will come back to you. A cheap quad will just disappear, usually into some water close by!
You could practice without the gimbal attached while you save for a GoPro, and a top end GoPro ( Hero 4 Black) will give you professional quality video footage. If they are good enough for the BBC, they are good enough for commercial use, albeit with limited range.
Allan
 
The airspace above private land has nothing to do with the owner of the land. If legislation restricting use of SUA and SUSA is brought in it'll apply everywhere.
 
allanm said:
The problem with practising on a cheap quad is that it might just put you off flying a quad altogether. A cheap quad won't have gps or altitude hold or basically stay where it is if you panic and take your thumbs off the sticks. A cheap quad will need constant inputs of the controls to keep it even hovering, a Phantom 2 with a Zenmuse H3 3D gimbal with cosy you around £700 ( without a go pro) but you will be flying it spectacularly well in a couple of hours or less. If you get totally disorientated with it, just flick a switch and it will come back to you. A cheap quad will just disappear, usually into some water close by!
You could practice without the gimbal attached while you save for a GoPro, and a top end GoPro ( Hero 4 Black) will give you professional quality video footage. If they are good enough for the BBC, they are good enough for commercial use, albeit with limited range.
Allan
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Spot on.
 
I think I just talked myself into buying another Phantom 2 with Zenmuse H3-3D. I sold mine a few months ago, it was an earlier version with the H2-3D. I think the newer ones have a few more updates and appear easier to fly.
I'd keep away from the Vision though, they seem to be the ones that like to go for a wander on their own.....
Allan

Of course, it should be a H3-2D
 
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allanm said:
I think I just talked myself into buying another Phantom 2 with Zenmuse H3-3D. I sold mine a few months ago, it was an earlier version with the H2-3D. I think the newer ones have a few more updates and appear easier to fly.
I'd keep away from the Vision though, they seem to be the ones that like to go for a wander on their own.....
Allan
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I'm waiting on the release of the H4-3D before I buy the Phantom 2. Should be this month.
 
I saw that too, i assume it's for the Hero4? I thought the H3 3D gimbal could accommodate the Hero4
Allan
 
allanm said:
I saw that too, i assume it's for the Hero4? I thought the H3 3D gimbal could accommodate the Hero4
Allan
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It can, but not properly. The side button is depressed by the gimbal, and it isn't properly balanced unless you stick a coin on the camera!
 
It seems to vary by gimbal. Some seem to be just wide enough to not depress the button. Mine wasn't, so I used a dremel to remove the warranty (and the bit of metal pressing the button), and balanced it with a self adhesive tyre weight (perfect size). I've already got a H3-3D from when I had the Hero 3+ mounted, so don't want to shell out another £250+. If I was buying it all again, H4-3D would be on my P2 instead :)
 
Just been looking online for alternatives to the Phantom 2 and found this..

Works for me. There are lots of videos on YouTube and all rate it very highly.
With my Birthday coming up next week, how could I resist.........
Allan
 
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Thanks for the link to rcgroups, makes interesting reading. I saw that the monitor comes with a clip on shield so reflections shouldn't be a problem. I think you can also connect android and iOS devices to receive the video too.
It just seems like a good package, I like the size too, easier to see in the distance and it also has a "follow me function", which seems excellent.
Should be here Monday! I'll let you know how good or bad it is.
Allan
 
Ricardodaforce said:
I look forward to hearing more about it.
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Brilliant!
It is so stable and easy to fly, video from the CGO2 camera is very smooth and sharp, at least as good as my Gopro Hero 4.
The whole package seems well made and inspires confidence. I like the follow me feature, but it is really only for use on level ground, it won't change altitude if you do. Home feature works well and you can quickly take over control or adust it's return couse whilst still in home mode. Not sure what will happen if you turn the transmitter off though.
If I had one criticism, it would be that the props are easily damaged and quite brittle.
If I had two criticisms, it would be that spares in the UK are non existent at the moment, although I understant this should change late next month. You can get spares from Germany, but postage puts the price up a bit.
I loved the way the Phantom flew, I think this is better.
Allan
 
Interesting thread and discussion, Im currently reconfiguring my hexacopter, basically upgrading the flight controller, gimbal, and radio gear and battery's. The frame, esc's, motors and props are staying the same, will also be adding waypoint control so it can fly a pre-programmed route. I have also thought about moving the esc's from under the motor mounts to on the main copter board, but decided to keep them where they are as they are always cool there. I will get some pics if anyone's interested through out the build, it wont be an over night thing.
 
Quick update on the spares for the Q500. Although I ordered a set of props from Germany, they are also awaiting stock. It looks like stuff is starting to arrive at the dealers now though, but Yuneec are sending me a set for free.
Also, when I registered the quad, the website said I would qualify for a Free Steadygrip. It's a handheld mount that takes the camera and gimbal from the quad and allows you to use it with your smartphone as the display.
Pretty cool and free, or so it would be if you lived in mainland Europe or anywhere else in the world where they sell these. Not in the UK though!
Still, the quad is still flying great. And with gps turned off, it will likely outperform the Phantom for speed and manoeuvrability. With GPS on, it's a very stable video platform, which it sold as.
MHO, good luck with the build. I built a 450 size quad using a Crius FC. It did everything. Nice stable flight, rth, waypoints and very nimble.
Kept dropping out the sky though! Something wrong with the latest firmware. I downgraded it, it never dropped out of the sky again, but I sold it to buy a Phantom.
Allan
 
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