Birds in Flight

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Gaz J said:
"I'm of the opinion that much of bird photography is now becoming fake, and that puts bird photographers in a bad light."

Can you explain what you mean by that and why you think it?

As for the OP. I didnt see the original post but have always taken a photographers word for their work. If they say its a true record thats good enough for me. At the end of the day they are only kidding them selves if they are not telling the truth. As for asking for a RAW file. If it was me I wouldnt have sent it, and I have a lot of respect for the guy who requested it. I would just feel that I had nothing to prove one way or the other and left it at that.

I have noticed on several forums that there does seem to be a "holier than thou" attitude toward some posts where it turns out that the photographer has paid to use a hide to get their images and others havent and seem to think that the images are somehow of a lesser merit.

Its easy to be smug if you have access to a particular type of bird or mammal but in other parts of the country they are just not around in the quantities to get good images. Utilising other peoples access to get images does'nt make them of a lesser qualilty that onyone else.

Just to make it clear the above is an observation and is not a reference to anyone or any post on here specifically. :)
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I'm only offering my thoughts.... and from what I've seen at times, people are misleading in their information, until such time as they are being 'found out'.
I have no problem with the use of hides either....
Sometimes, I'd rather see a well taken bird image, of a bird that's sat in a tree, than those images where there is no clue as to the birds habitat, because birds are photographed on 'a stick'....people no longer want 'clutter' in their images.
I have lost count of the amount of times that the general public think birds only live on sticks....and have no clue where the birds habitat is.
 
den said:
While it may appear by some members that serious manipulation as been used to achieved the final image ,I for one have to accept that the OP as answered the question ,it may be fake but then again it may not but I do believe in my humble opinion that I or anyone else does not have the right to question the OP's integrity especially as he as already given his reasons ,on the matter of sending a RAW file then yes that would have settled the matter ,but in this case the OP decided with reason not to send it...he was a new member after all and I believe it was not a case of what he was asked it was how it was asked. As said just my opinion on the matter .
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For me this is spot on Den, this is a forum not a court, if anyone thought that they were fake then maybe it would just be better to ignore and move on and wait to see what their next set of images are.
Had a similar thing yesterday when a poster questioned an image of mine and whereas they didn't outright say it was fake it was very much the intent IMO. I've been here long enough to understand that people can be a tad judgemental but a new member would hardly know this!
 
Martyn D said:
For me this is spot on Den, this is a forum not a court, if anyone thought that they were fake then maybe it would just be better to ignore and move on and wait to see what their next set of images are.
Had a similar thing yesterday when a poster questioned an image of mine and whereas they didn't outright say it was fake it was very much the intent IMO. I've been here long enough to understand that people can be a tad judgemental but a new member would hardly know this!
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Yes Martyn you are right this is a photography forum, it allows for open discussions such as this one where people can put their views across, be that right or wrong in your`s, mine or anybody else`s eyes. If somebody posts up a picture in this section then it is up for C&C, that imo allows for anybody to question the integrity of the shot A.K.A being judemental ;) and they must be prepared for other people to notice and comment on anything that to them looks wrong. If people feel they cannot accept that then there are plenty of other sections on TP that it will fit in nicely. I know I always say this from time to time, but from the time I started to frequent this section everybody was happy to recieve C&C and if asked to post up just a straight conversion to query something, then they were quite happy to do it without throwing the dummy. Nowadays it seems the slightest mention of something untowards all hell breaks loose, be that a bird or any other genre. I thought these forums were to help people expand their knowleadge and learn from others. There used to be a member who would post a link to his site, when you looked at the shots virtually each one had been doctored, even as far as adding birds into the frame. You may or may not like it or agree with it but he was good at doing it and he was selling prints. The fact was he explained everything what he was doing in each shot, which imho is the least we should expect from people who are manipulating images beyond the basic PP. I find the dummy spitting really sad, but then you have the likes of young Joe who takes C&C on the chin moves on and comes back with something better next time, that to me makes it all worth it if nothing else.
 
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I think that in general most photographers who post on here are pretty upfront with information. I know that there has been a recent request that more info is given. Thats good especially when it is info around shutter speeds etc as it gives help to less experienced photographers who may be wondering what they need to do.

I can however understand a reluctance to give too much info about where they are taking their images as a lot of time can go into finding and photographing birds, mammals etc.

I have seen comments disparaging all baited photography, which in my view is absolutely ridiculous. If we all stuck to that edict then this section of the forum would be pretty sparse.

I, like many others i'm sure, take photographs for my own pleasure. If i like something I will post it. If others like it thats great, if they dont thats fine also. I dont care.

I look at any critiscm and evaluate it. If i think its a valid point i will take it on board. But a lot of critiscm is subjective. It is someones opinion and is open to interpretation. Not everyone takes critiscm well and may feel that it warrants a robust defence.
 
Gaz J said:
I think that in general most photographers who post on here are pretty upfront with information. I know that there has been a recent request that more info is given. Thats good especially when it is info around shutter speeds etc as it gives help to less experienced photographers who may be wondering what they need to do.

I can however understand a reluctance to give too much info about where they are taking their images as a lot of time can go into finding and photographing birds, mammals etc.

I have seen comments disparaging all baited photography, which in my view is absolutely ridiculous. If we all stuck to that edict then this section of the forum would be pretty sparse.

I, like many others i'm sure, take photographs for my own pleasure. If i like something I will post it. If others like it thats great, if they dont thats fine also. I dont care.

I look at any critiscm and evaluate it. If i think its a valid point i will take it on board. But a lot of critiscm is subjective. It is someones opinion and is open to interpretation. Not everyone takes critiscm well and may feel that it warrants a robust defence.
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Some valid points Gaz, and I am of the same school of thought with regards to people liking or not my shots. The situation is that there are photographers at all levels viewing this section and submitting their shots. Picture the scenario, somebody puts up a picture, one person out of the ones that have looked and commented on it, might view it and think it does not look right and question it. You might get twenty people look at it and say how wonderful it is, you may also get one or two look at it and realise there is something not quite right, but for fear of upsetting things they keep quiet. If the latter happens, what does this do for a newbie when they look at it? Imo off they will go and try their hardest to replicate a similar shot, and you have to admit we all look at other peoples work and think " I would like to have a go at that myself. " So off that person trots and will no doubt put in a bit of time and effort to get that shot, the chances are that person is going to be sadly despondent with it all, because if that image has been altered in such a way and they are not aware of it, then there is no chance in hell of them getting a similar shot. That to me is not what we should be promoting by keeping quiet about things, it serves no purpose at all in helping fellow photographers climb, what already is a steep learning curve, be they young or old.
 
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An update on this thread.

Admin have seen the original RAW file for the tufted ducks, it is NOT a composite image, just heavily cropped.
I believe videos of people eating tufted duck can be uploaded now..

I also think that there are a few apologies that need to be made to the OP.
 
Thanks for that update Matty.
I'll apologise, as I thought that the image was a composite.
The image is very good indeed, and the OP did well in capturing it.
 
matty said:
An update on this thread.

Admin have seen the original RAW file for the tufted ducks, it is NOT a composite image, just heavily cropped.
I believe videos of people eating tufted duck can be uploaded now..

I also think that there are a few apologies that need to be made to the OP.
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Fair enough Matty but without sounding like i am dragging this out, there are still a couple of point that need addressing imho.
matty said:
An update on this thread.

Admin have seen the original RAW file for the tufted ducks, it is NOT a composite image, just heavily cropped.
I believe videos of people eating tufted duck can be uploaded now..

I also think that there are a few apologies that need to be made to the OP.
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Fair enough Matty, I will try to explain something here and hope I word it correctly and you understand where I am coming from. I for one will not apologise as I felt I did not accuse anybody of anything, the OP had a right to reply to those who he thought were doubting the shot. In saying that though the way he responded did nothing imho but make people even more sceptical, especially just up and leaving. He states that nothing more than a crop and sharpen was used, you come back and tell us it was a heavy crop, I could be wrong but in my short experience any heavy crop will more as like need a lot of sharpening to compensate for quality loss, this in turn leads to the image looking not quite as natural as far as I am concerned. Perhaps the OP should have explained all this a bit more instead of just leaving people guessing? I have no idea what the RAW looks like Matty but I still have the JPEG of the Tufties to refresh my memory. I appreciate the OP is not around, but to help me put my view across I feel that the way in which the image was edited still makes it look all wrong. If he had stayed around to discuss it in a more mature manner then there could have been a few things I or others may have suggested, and more as like tried an edit for him to look at. In turn he could have come out from the discussion and learnt something, or equally I could have looked at it and admitted that due to the heavy crop and editing he did a real good job under the circumstances. Hopefully something can be learned from all of this, but as in my previous reply, I hope having to tred on broken glass in fear of upsetting somebody, is not one of them.
 
we still appear to be a few apologies short in this thread.
Rich, granted, its a heavy crop.
 
To question or ask if the photos are / were Photoshopped is absolutely no problem at all.
We're all here to learn. Like has been said, it's a community, not a court. The question was asked, the answer was given and he should have been taken at his word.
Sure, if it was a photo of a Peregrine Falcon sat astride a Velociraptor with an Indiana Jones hat on, then yes....it's fair to doubt the authenticity even when defended by the OP.

That said, there was a chance this was legit, and the ones who were absoutely sure it was fake certainly do owe the OP an apology.

There are at least two apologies missing in this thread which gives me as admin a bit of an insight to the behaviour and attitude in this forum.
It's been said to use before that this forum is becoming the new bitchy part of the forum, hounding those who might not 'fit in'.

Please don't make us reconsider the option of integrating it with a wider part of the forum.

PS. Yes, I have the original RAW file of one of the shots, and unless someone is going to give me technical evidence to the contrary, I'm taking that as legit.
 
Surely,as has been previously pointed out, this section is for C&C of images posted. Integrating it into another section of the forum to try and minimise the odd occasion where C&C has gone a bit over the top is going to have a detrimental effect that will far exceed the general positive effect comments made here have for photographers.

You may feel that apologies should be made but to broad brush the whole section and everyone in it because they haven't been forthcoming isn't going to help either.
 
Gaz J said:
Surely,as has been previously pointed out, this section is for C&C of images posted. Integrating it into another section of the forum to try and minimise the odd occasion where C&C has gone a bit over the top is going to have a detrimental effect that will far exceed the general positive effect comments made here have for photographers.

You may feel that apologies should be made but to broad brush the whole section and everyone in it because they haven't been forthcoming isn't going to help either.
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This forum used to be part of an "animals and birds" forum.
After an amount of "lobbying" and discussion in the staff room,
it was decided to separate it and give the birders their own forum, as it was getting quite busy.
TBH we are getting a little disheartened at the bitching by some,
and the fact that there seems to be a few, that think its their forum to run and moderate as they see fit.

The option is always there to re-integrate the birds / zoo's / pets etc back to one forum.
 
I don't think this section should be integrated either..... I feel there's just too much 'traffic' going through here, that posts will be lost if we were moved elsewhere.
I also don't think there's any reason why we aren't able to ask 'questions' about how images are taken, it's what 'birders' do........ although, I admit that there are times when it's not what's been said, but how it's been said that seems to set things on a downward spiral......
 
Gaz J said:
Surely,as has been previously pointed out, this section is for C&C of images posted. Integrating it into another section of the forum to try and minimise the odd occasion where C&C has gone a bit over the top is going to have a detrimental effect that will far exceed the general positive effect comments made here have for photographers.

You may feel that apologies should be made but to broad brush the whole section and everyone in it because they haven't been forthcoming isn't going to help either.
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I agree entirely Gaz, I also think it was an "error of judgement" as they say on behalf of Admin. who fueled the arguement by firstly questioning how the images were taken albeit under the new rules. Admin then told everyone to cease commenting then asked everyone to comment further on photos which have been removed and on raw files no one else has seen. A more mature response would have been to close the thread as all photos were deleted.
I rest my case..
 
I assume by Admin you are talking about the moderators Yv and Cobra? (Myself, matty and digitalfailure are Admin).
The moderators asked that particular line of discussion to stop.
They did not question how the images were taken, there was no mention of "new rules".
They said specifically go and comment on some other photos. Nothing to do with the OP's in particular which have now been removed.

Chas, your post was rude, disrespectful and dripping in sarcasm. There was no need for that. You've been told you were wrong by an independent third party in the issue (Matty...and then me) that should be the end of it.

The mention of re-integrating the forum was a passing comment in general about the perceptions and atmosphere within the bird forum itself, and not specific to this particular issue. It's not an issue that's open for discussion right now.

Lee has hit the nail on the head. It's never usually what was said, it's the tone and manner in which it has been said. That sets things on a downward spiral.
 
It seems odd that one is no longer allowed to question how somebody got a shot.

I can`t remember if I saw these shots or not to be honest, but it seems that people were questioning if they were authentic, perhaps not in the most diplomatic way,granted, but surely the OP could have explained all this himself rather than pm you guys after appearing to have flounced off in a huff.
 
fracster said:
It seems odd that one is no longer allowed to question how somebody got a shot.
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I have to agree with this nugget;)

There are blatantly people who lie, cheat and deceive with their pictures and are all to happy to take the plaudits until they are rumbled, then make pathetic excuses trying to justify their misrepresentations. They know who they are. This is a generalisation and not aimed at the OP in this Thread, or anyone in particular. Honest!!

It's only natural to question something if you have doubts about it's authenticity.
 
BRASH said:
I have to agree with this nugget;)

There are blatantly people who lie, cheat and deceive with their pictures and are all to happy to take the plaudits until they are rumbled, then make pathetic excuses trying to justify their misrepresentations. They know who they are. This is a generalisation and not aimed at the OP in this Thread, or anyone in particular. Honest!!

It's only natural to question something if you have doubts about it's authenticity.
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I haven't read it that we aren't allowed to ask questions on the authenticity of an image.

And, Brash has hit the nail on the head..... if only posters were honest about how they're getting their images..... and, to be fair, most are.......
But, when you've praised a posters images, only to find out they have been less than forthcoming, it grates a little(or a lot).
 
If I remember correctly the OP did answer the question regarding authenticity ,some resulting comments afterwards were bordering on the edge of questioning his integrity.what some people may be forgetting is the forum lost a member because of this...Just my humble opinion on this matter
 
Comment deleted by me , pending a formal response. Request made by me also to have my account removed from this website forthwith. ..
 
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Guys, you are missing the point of Marcels post - no one is saying don't question how a photo was taken, by all means do, but as we keep saying, do it politely and in a friendly manner and once the answer has been given, feel free to doubt it if you wish, but leave it and move on, life it too short. A new member has been driven away by the 'woodpecker' effect that can happen in here and that is what is bothering us and was the reason for the guidance thread in the first place. They are not 'new rules', they are simply a way of asking you all to be a bit more thoughtful before you hit the Post Reply button - give the information about the photo when you post [which is what I asked the OP to do and had done in several other threads, including one of yours Chas, so your point is not really valid, not demand he 'proved' how he photographed it - and once he had, you were asked by staff to move on], be polite when responding, use the ignore function when all else fails. This isn't pointing fingers at anyone, but there is a notable 'divide' in the bird forum between some members - members that are otherwise good, valuable members - we cannot make you all like each other or agree with each other, and in truth wouldn't want to, but all we are asking is that you know that is happening and step back from it or it just looks like a witch hunt, which is what happened in this case - frankly, I think I would reacted in exactly the same way as the OP in the circumstances.
 
Chas Moonie said:
For the record Marcel, and I choose my words carefully ,my post was well meaning, polite courteous and factual. I still contend that this thread should have been closed and deleted when the original poster asked for his account to be deleted. As for admin/ moderators, I used the term "Admin" to refer to all staff on this site.
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All fine and dandy to say that Chas, but that then stops the discussion dead, nothing gets learnt from it and we are back to square one again in a couple of months once all the dust and feathers have settled. I assume the OP is still a member and my guess he even took a quick look in to see how the thread was going. If he felt the thread needed to be locked he could have asked for that. I have read several reviews of TP as a photography forum, I read a post from one guy who slagged it right off due to the nature of some of the C&C on here. The most rewarding thing was to read further down the review list, that he had the guts to come back and apologise for his first reply and apologised for being wrong, and accepted he was actually being given the harsh but stark truth about his pictures. I do not think anybody is saying not to query the integrity but yes, perhaps we do need to be a little more subtle with others when asking questions of this type.
 
My apologies everyone, I have had to lock this thread.
Unfortunately, Chas Moonie believes that my opinion of his post being rude and disrespectful is libellous and extremely offensive. He has asked for immediate removal of my comment.
He has insinuated legal action and therefore I have had to exclude him from the site for our own protection.


As for the subject, if you think a photo is too good to be true, then most definitely are you allowed to question it on the basis of how good it is. Do it politely and respectfully, without cynicism, sarcasm and rudeness.
If you are then told it's legitimate, then shrug your shoulders and walk away.
 
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