Cave Photography - advice needed!

DuncanDisorderly

DuncanDisorderly

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Duncan
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I recently had my first attempt at cave photography.
And it is MUCH harder than I thought it would be.
If anyone has any relevant experience and tips I'd be very grateful.

On my first cave trip I never actually got the camera out the bag.
It was slung around my shoulders and badly got in the way. I did a significant chunk of the trip with the camera bag held in my mouth.
Basically a complete failure in all respects - but at least the camera survived.
I saw some cracking photo opportunities and would love to do them justice.

The second trip was more successful and I got some images I'm proud of.
But the challenges weren't what I was expecting and conditions were much tougher I had anticipated.
I solved carrying the camera by using a caving rope sack; it is purpose designed for the job with drain holes to avoid flooding and handles to aid pulling / pushing / kicking the bag through squeezes.
De-gloving / cleaning / drying my hands, then extracting the camera from it's multiple layers of protection was a time consuming chore. Not sure how how to improve this, but the group had to hang around while I did it and I feel there is definitely room for improvement.
Communication was a problem as it was extremely noisy in the caverns. All shouting did was get peoples attention, but they couldn't make out what I was saying.

But the big problem was mist - I hadn't anticipated this and it's serious!
I was only using on-camera flash and event the slightest hint of mist ruined the shots.
A combination of high humidity and no air movement means breath hangs in the air for a long time.
Breathing while setting up the shot ruins the shot. Blowing out the side of my mouth didn't help much as regardless of where I blew it, the mist seemed to drift back towards me.
Moving a few paces and then shooting wasn't particularly practical with the rough slippy terrain and loss of focus and composition.

I think off-camera flash is probably the way forward. I've a feeling that even holding the flash at arms length will help a lot with the mist, but I'm worried about the distinctive shadows it will create.
I've just ordered some cheap radio triggers which will allow me to put the flash in a clear bag and give me a lot more options.

I love a challenge,
But it is a horrible environment to experiment and I could really use some help and advice.

For amusement, here's one of the photos from the second trip...
DSCF3191-S.jpg
 
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be aware that the author posted that in 2001...literally a lifetime ago...
 
TVRTim said:
Lots of stuff on the net Duncan, https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDoQFjAG&url=http://www.ephotozine.com/article/a-shot-in-the-dark---guide-to-cave-photography-4680&ei=wfanVMW2EIPtUo3bgcAL&usg=AFQjCNFkUduKUwZjLajzKcFI7xc9gKfwJw&sig2=gJDo5bLJ6JnBVqsxeeDTKw
Click to expand...
Cheers - that was interesting and useful.
But it's based on old equipment and their inherent advantages / challenges.
I've a feeling that a modern camera at high ISO offers a lot of creative possibilities.

One of the shots I have in mind was when I was following someone up a 45deg waterfall with a low roof.
The water cascading over their shoulders backlit by their head torch and framed by the passage looked wonderful.
I've thought about how it could be lit, but it might kill the drama that caught my eye in the first place.
Maybe a stupidly high ISO is all I need for this one - dunno, I'll give it a try.

The good news is that the group seem up for a photography trip (warmer clothing and expect a lot of standing around) which will make it much easier for me to get it right.
But I don't want to let them down :)
 
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A7s, maybe old small manual lenses, perhaps a waterproof case for the camera, means it will be bulky, and limit lens options

For flash bag you will need to keep the plastic away from the lens part of the flash as they get hot very quickly.

Gorilla pod tripod, remote release too if possible
 
pingu666 said:
A7s, maybe old small manual lenses, perhaps a waterproof case for the camera, means it will be bulky, and limit lens options

For flash bag you will need to keep the plastic away from the lens part of the flash as they get hot very quickly.

Gorilla pod tripod, remote release too if possible
Click to expand...
Good point about the flash bag - I hadn't thought of that - cheers!

I've been trawling the web for how-to guides and surprisingly few of them address the mist problem I was facing.
Here's one of the best I found
http://www.wildcaves.co.za/assets/education/cavephotography.htm
 
That takes me back a bit as I did a bit of pot holing a few, well many years ago. I used a Cosmic 35 at that time I'd bought for £5 around the Brick Lane area which was actually not light tight but presented no problems down holes. It took quite reasonable shots using big enough flash bulbs with the great advantage that once out three screws allowed the lens/shutter unit to be unscrewed allowing it to be 'gently' tapped on a bench to remove the grit. It was quite capable of matching a friends Mikonos for A3 prints and far simpler to use. Those were the days when apart from anything else I could bend.
 
@velocette - I know what you mean, I'm 50 and don't have anything like the fitness or flexibility that I used to be.
I'm slightly worried about a trip they are currently coaxing me down as I Googled it and found this terrifying photo of a squeeze that is on the route. http://www.mwbeale.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/void/gbdave.jpg
Apparently, the water has to be bailed out to make it passable!
It's difficult to constrain the group's enthusiasm as they see this squeeze as relatively OK. They are all very experienced, most of them are diggers and one is a cave diver.
The cave the diggers are excavating is much tighter and has been blasted to allow more of the team members to fit through - none of them have anything like my 'ahem' build.
I'll report back with how it goes - no date set yet...

And I've just ordered some more kit :)
I reckon a gel hand warmer in the camera bag will help prevent the lens from misting up.
Misting didn't happen to me on the last trip, but has happened lots of times doing landscape photography and can be a real pain.
That how-to link I posted mentions it as a cave photography problem.
No idea how effective it will be, but I reckon it is worth a go.
 
Thats not a Squeeze - its a chasm - lol....

I've been doing exploration cave diving for the last 6 years....
 
@Diving Pete Posting on a photography forum indicates some familiarity with the challenge!
Have you taken your gear down?

On a side note - there may be a delay in my plans for a photography trip.
Just back from the pub and the diggers are on a major high as they have made a breakthrough into a new cavern system.
No way to get me down there (too much SRT); so I've offered my gear to one of the diggers to try and get some images.
Maybe they will be able to take a night off and go somewhere else, but I wouldn't blame them for sticking with the headline story.
So sadly, no idea when they will be able to let me join then on their next 'tourist' caving trip.
As ever - will keep you posted.
 
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Sadly I only ever take Go-Pro's with me...

The last Hole we dived (Oct 2013) was this:

http://www.plongeesout.com/sites/roussilon-pyrenees/lot/planagreze.htm

As with any expedition, they are really hard on Gear & people, so I deliberately took last year off to just concentrate on my photography..

I used to be a rock climber, got to 8b french & E5 6C onsite flashing & my favorite sport is Scuba Diving so it was only natural to move into Exploration Cave Diving - You should see my Shed - https://www.flickr.com/photos/93774001@N03/8683486198/in/set-72157633340712117 -- lol..

I 've been asked to 'push' a couple of sites in the Mendips & in the near future may also be part of the Cave Rescue team - South East Cave Rescue Organisation - all these things take a lot of energy & time... we will see..
 
& yes I took my Scuba gear (rebreather & 4 cylinders) to the bottom - about 160m absail - multi-pitch. I was responsible for the rigging & a fellow caver was my Checkup -
 
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@Diving Pete -There is something about boats in caves that appeals to me; only remember seeing them in images of the Croesor Rhosydd Through Trip.
That's a heck of a shed; very impressive!
The photo at the top of this thread has been printed to A4 and is currently pinned up in the Wessex CC; very happy with that. Keep a look out for it (and hopefully others) when you visit Mendip. :)
All the best - Duncan
 
OK - last night I had my third trip underground; another reccy trip - but it was properly mad!
The walk to the cave was across snow covered fields and the entrance was through a waterfall of icy water :)
Managed to get the camera out three times and some things worked great, but actually it was a complete failure regards images.

What worked - the LED flash has made the water look like flowing water instead of bubble wrap, which is what I wanted.
A bit of experimentation and I'll find the shutter speed I'm after and can stick to it.
Also - the scattered lighting totally solved the mist problem; the first image had a thin fog from breath hanging in the chamber and mist from the waterfall; neither has affected the image :)

What didn't work - the longer shutter speed meant the fluttering image stabilisation in my knackered old camera is a real problem and has killed the quality in all these images. I either need to use a working camera or go back to electronic flash.
Also, I could really use a wider lens.

Anyway, here's a sample so you can see how I'm getting on.

1) The shot I have in mind is the caver squeezing through the entrance hole at the top of the waterfall with the water cascading around their waist while they look for holds on the descent. But the caver is so experienced they managed it without getting wet (unlike the rest of us), and it was so noisy I couldn't even get their attention by shouting. Lesson: better communication to the team before we split up for the shot.
View attachment 28640

2) This is the location that inspired me on my original trip; and I have totally failed to capture anything of what first attracted me to it. I wanted the camera much closer to the crack and I wanted the water at the top of the chute to be back-lit as it cascades over the caver. There is a light at the top but it is totally in the wrong place. Lesson: stronger vision of what I want from the shot and convey it to the team so they can help me set it up.
View attachment 28641

3) Yes those are tree roots; the caver is climbing up into the base of the tree to exit the cave. What has been lost is the drop below them. Lesson: I need to find a different position for this shot; maybe if I climb up off the floor I will be able to get a better angle. Trouble was the caver was in an increasingly precarious position and wasn't hanging around while I sorted myself out; and I couldn't really make myself heard over the noise in the rift. Need better preparation before taking the shot.
View attachment 28642

4) I moved back as far as I could (still not far enough), but the light I asked to be held at the bottom of the rift is way too bright. The shot would work better if the bottom of the rift was a dark void giving just a hint of the depth below. I need to rethink the lighting on this shot, but feel it has potential.
View attachment 28643

In summary: I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and take down one of my proper cameras - and have a long think about lighting plans as well as improving my communications with the cavers at the start of each shot.
 
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Duncan, The main problem you have is that some of the shots you 'have in mind' just arn't possible due to space limitations - sure you can take the pic but it wont convey the 200m drop !!!
It is more pick the correct tool for the job and recognise that lighting & caving & water bring their own set of problems...
 
oh diagrams are the way i'd do it - as I'm guessing you dont have any PMR's... (only work with Line Of Sight) I take my own comms into the Cave - RACAL PTC404's, - but these are not caves that are 'traveled'
 
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why not start with some mines ?
They aren't as wet as caves and are a bit bigger so you can have more time to experiment and perfect technique.
I have also found that air temperature above ground makes a massive difference too.
 
Pete - points taken.
Next time I'll take a wider lens and a working camera; I'm still optimistic I can get the shots I have in mind. I've produced mountain images that show the situation quite well, just have to get my head in gear in unfamiliar surroundings and do better next time! e.g. http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/th...pe-photograph-2014.572885/page-2#post-6652160.
Radios - you the cavers already mentioned this as worth a go. I have some old Motorola Tlkr T5 radios from when I used to organise photography meets that I don't mind risking. They might even last a while if I wrap them in a sealed bag.
Lighting plans - this was just a reccy trip, and at least I've now got something to plan against :)

Penguin - unfortunately there aren't many mines that I know how to get into in this part of Somerset; but there are some dry caves! That would offer a much less hostile environment for me to practice in.
Excellent suggestion - thanks!
 
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Evening!
Just had a cracking trip underground tonight.
Almost didn't take the camera because at the last moment we decided to go down to sump one in Swildons; which for an unfit desk jockey like me is more than enough to leave me shattered without extra-curricular photography.
Wiggled my feet in the air on other side of sump one but didn't go through; next time I'll probably take the plunge (literally).
Main reason for not going through was concern over getting back up the hanging ladder under the 20ft waterfall; which caused me huge problems the only other time I've tried it - but tonight actually turned out OK.
I'm only typing this post at this late hour because I'm still coming down off the adrenalin buzz.

We left the camera gear above the ladder pitch so we could have a play on the way out, but the main problem was that I was shaking so badly with fatigue that the OIS on the X30 was struggling; I wasn't thinking too clearly either.
But it wasn't expected to be a full on photo trip, so these images are a bonus :)

I placed the lights up as high as I could get them to give the impression of depth and am pleased with the way it's working out. I like the lighting in this shot, but Sarah could do with being in a slightly more dynamic pose and it would be nice to have a wider lens to capture the full scale of the scene.
But not bad for a reccy shot :)
View attachment 29132

Here's a better pose, but we've lost the lovely stalactites from the first image.
I really do need to bite the bullet and take my SLR down there with a decent wide angle lens.
View attachment 29133

Here's 'that' shot again, but one light has been placed outside the entrance and another inside the rift as high above my head as I could reach.
I've got the light fall-off about right and the tree roots at the entrance look great, but I'm as far back as I can get and that darned lens just isn't wide enough.
Next time...
View attachment 29134

Like I said - this was really just a reccy trip; by the time I got the camera out the barrel I was utterly spent.
However, considering the challenges I'm feeling quite pleased with these three snaps :)
 
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For your amusement...
Here's an illustration of the difference between a novice caver and an experienced caver.

View attachment 29135

My suit has only been used in two caves and my helmet was straight out the box onto my head.
Sarah's suit is not only covered in mud, but is full of holes from almost daily trips underground.
I feel utterly confident in her leadership and safety, but occasionally it does feel like trying to follow a greased rat down a drainpipe.
 
A question please!
It is becoming obvious that I need to take my 5DIII down the caves so that I can use wider focal lengths.
But I have a technical issue I haven't solved yet.

The cavers have lent me a watertight barrel for transporting my gear, which is amply sized for the X30, two flashes, some other accessories and lots of padding.
The 5DIII would fit in lens down with adequate padding around it, but the neck is too narrow for the body to go in sideways.
I've Googled and this barrel already has the widest neck available on similarly sized barrels; it looks almost exactly like this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wide-mout...Canoeing_Kayaking_ET&var=&hash=item3a95f2bfc9
The only way I can think of is to pack the body and lens separately, and assemble them in-situ.
I'm really worried about the spray filled locations where the only place for my kit is to balance the barrel on a few boulders sticking out the water. Hence can't drop anything and there is a constant unpredictable stream of drips coming from the roof.

All suggestions gratefully received.
 
I used to use a peli case. Thats a Daren Drum. They are ok but not that watertight copared to a pelicase plus the pelicase has foam in it too.
4464465082_20b943ce30_b_d.jpg

top tip is to put a few pairs of disposable gloves in the box too. makes it easier to handle the camera without getting mud on it !
 
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@mountainpenguin Can you please post a link so I can see the sort of Peli case you have in mind - ta!
I'd love to try a macro of those pebbles - it would look wonderfully abstract. Thanks for sharing!
Edited to add - where was that shot taken please ?

I'm carrying the barrel in a rope sack which makes getting it in and out of the caves relatively straightforward.
Swildon's has tight bits where there is no way I can carry the sack on my back (I got jammed until I spotted the other cavers had already taken their sacks off off).
Once off the shoulders it's a question of either pushing it ahead of me (Swildons short dry way) or hanging it on a sling and pulling it up after me (Swildons wet way, current is too strong to push ahead). Either way, the rope sack is designed for this sort of abuse with lots of harness points and handles.
Though I won't let them throw my camera gear down the pitches like the rest of their equipment :)

Gotta admit I'm struggling to work out how the heck film crews get their gear down some of the tighter caves!
 
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Woot Woot :banana:

Just back from the Hunter's Lodge (cavers pub of choice in the Mendips).
I offered Roger Doors (the landlord) a print of the second shot in last night's set to blu-tack up in the pub expecting him to say no (there are no modern images anywhere else in the pub).
And he said yes!
He even told me to forget the blu-tack as he'd find a frame for it !!!!!

I'm feeling so chuffed (where's that 'cloud-9' smiley that used to be on TP?).
 
from me again - lol...

Get the smallest Peli you can

Ignore the SLR at mo.

Work on:
lighting,
posing
positioning,

Until you are 'relaxed' in a cave you will struggle with even basic shots. - good lights really make an enormous difference...
I have a lovely Rude Nora II.....(& I'm thinking a 'blind bat' may come in handy...lol
 
yeh petes dead right smallest peli that will fit your camera in. Then spend
The cave pearls were taken in a mine in north wales it was a section that had been relatively undisturbed for ~100 years.
I never got round to trying it but I did think that adding a rucksack style straps to a peli case would make life a lot quicker / comfier as they get very bulky quickly.
 
Thanks both!
Sounds like a Peli case might be just what I'm needing.
I'm meeting the cavers for a few jars of cider tonight and I suspect it won't take much prompting to get their 2p on the subject now I know what question to ask.
My concern is whether they are suitable for regular use in the local caves; I know Sarah has ported kit for some BBC type underground filming and will have met them in action.

Pete - I hear what you are saying :)
It is possible I might be more relaxed using the DSLR as the conditions are right on the edge of what the little camera can cope with and the DSLR will be totally in its comfort zone (and mine) as I've always enjoyed landscape photography in fairly extreme weather (check my website for examples).
Lighting, posing, positioning - needs work, but I'm getting there!

I know what you mean about good lights making a difference; since I stopped borrowing a helmet I'm only using a vintage Petzl from my mountaineering days. If I'm being followed by a caver with a decent light then I can't see anything except my shadow and it is obvious how their light illuminates the whole cave, not just the bit in the main beam.
I've ordered a light based on a recommendation from the group; I'm very much looking forward to getting it!
 
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mountainpenguin said:
why not start with some mines ?
They aren't as wet as caves and are a bit bigger so you can have more time to experiment and perfect technique.
I have also found that air temperature above ground makes a massive difference too.
Click to expand...
It's happening!
I've been invited to practice in Redcliffe Caves, Bristol.
The caves are man-made, so it's almost a mine - they are dry and spacious; perfect for experimenting with lighting.
Gonna be interesting to see how I cope with the large chamber.
Looking forward to this :)
 
Very interesting thread...look forward to seeing how you do Duncan,post plenty of pics!
 
StuartH said:
Very interesting thread...look forward to seeing how you do Duncan,post plenty of pics!
Click to expand...
Cheers Stuart - will do!

I can't believe how fast things are falling together.
Wednesday night was a solo battle into the unknown and yet today (36 hours later) I spent most of the morning dealing with emails on the subject of cave photography.
Seems there are very few recent images of Mendip caves and I may be the only person pushing to get them.
The level of support I'm being offered is almost overwhelming.

As they say - "watch this space" :)
 
On the subject of Peli cases - the general reaction was, yes it's what everyone uses.
But kicking them through the local caves is definitely going to be a problem and not a decision to be taken lightly.
However, they tell me it is not a show stopper and if that is what it takes to get the images I have in mind then Peli cases are the way forwards.

I've been offered a look at a selection of Peli cases so I can see what I'm letting myself in for.
Gulp...
 
@Diving Pete - Sarah the cave diver says she must have met you.
I don't know your details other than your public TP profile, so she was unable to make the connection.

Sarah is a bit of a local legend and has a staggering history.
For example, tonight she presented me with a coffee-table book of the Berger to look at the lighting (its wonderful).
As it was being passed around the group it became obvious she is in a lot of the photos - what! - wow!
I know she leads ambitious groups around some of the most extreme round trips that Mendip and South Wales has to offer and is involved in one of the more promising Mendip digs.
Please PM me if you would like contact details.

Edited to add - it's this book!
http://www.gouffreberger.org/
That is one heck of a book!
 
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Peli cases...
I've been researching Peli cases and it's looking far more like a solution than I the initial reactions I got; though as you both suggested, it needs to be the smallest possible case that will fit my DSLR.
I asked this question on the 5DIII forum, but I think that may be the wrong place, so I'll try here!
Here's the question...

What's the smallest Peli case that will take a 5DIII with an attached lens?
I've been trying to work it out and it looks like the 1400 is the best bet, but it still doesn't leave much padding at the top and bottom; the other dimensions are way bigger than I need as I'm only planning to carry an attached wide angle lens.

Has anyone got any first hand experience they can pass on?
It's for a personal project to capture underground images in Mendip.
I'm currently using a Darren Barrel with my X30, but I really need to get the 5DIII down.
A lot of the locations are unsuitable for changing lenses, hence am looking to carry with the lens attached.
The container needs to be waterproof with deep enough padding to absorb the knocks when I'm pushing it ahead of me in the narrow bits.
It needs to be as small as possible because getting the barrel through the narrow bits is already an effort and the 5DIII is probably going to be a right PITA
A few people have recommended a Peli case but I'm slightly perplexed by all the options.

Also - what alternative are there to Peli that would do the job ?
Thanks in advance - Duncan
 
I did a lot of looking for an alternative to a peli but couldn't find anything that came with a guarantee that I trusted.
I used the 1300 with a 350d until it succumbed to gravity!. That "just" fitted in a 100m rope bag (without the rope) I wouldn't want to go much bigger though.
I did also have a small camera box that I could clip to my srt kit with a camera lights and gorilla pod.
 
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