Cave Photography - advice needed!

Duncan, as long as the cavers won't be taking penalties with the Peli full of kit, it shouldn't need too much foam between the kit and the case. The waterproofness will be more important in your situations. I would also suggest using little cable ties through the padlock holes on the Peli - if something can be accidentally opened, it will end up being accidentally opened! Keep a few spares in the case to re"lock" it for each move after shooting. (You'll need something to cut the ties with - they're way too tough to snap!)
 
@Nod Cheers for that.
Good suggestions.
I am getting my first hands-on with a Peli this weekend - sadly no chance of borrowing as it belongs to the cave rescue team, but at least I'll be able to see what one actually looks like and get my tape measure out.
 
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I would not consider assembling your body and lens underground and as silly as it sounds I take my Nikon dslr in two (double bagged) aldi freezer bags with a sigma 10-20mm attached, with spare bags to wrap it in when needed but regardless of what you take it in, it will get dirty no matter how careful you are, one other tip on the matter of misting up lenses is just to wipe it seconds before you take the shot.
I would also make a huge effort to take a tripod because it will negate the need for flash because you can expose for as long as you like and light the shot with a torch or headlamp, lastly I always set my focus to manual and set the lens to infinity as this saves trying to focus when you are wet and covered in crap.
 
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Meanwhile back at the funny farm....
Today was another no-notice trip to Swidlons sump 1.
Imagine my trepidation with both my companions being cave divers; one is the same leader who has taken me down so far, she's extreme in a kinda sociable way (but still have to be wary), and the other can legally sign documents as 'Mad Fi'. I was a little worried, but it worked out OK apart from me going so slowly that Sarah got hugely cold and was shivering at sump 1 - hmm, I really am slowing them up 'that' much.

I tried taking piccies in four new locations, three past where I've previously taken my camera.
To be honest - they don't do it justice; I was physically pushed hard and not thinking straight, my lighting didn't do what I wanted and the poor little X30 was pushed way out its comfort zone.
But I got 5 images I'm prepared to share in TP, so that's not too bad - right?

The big challenge I hadn't anticipated tonight was the other cavers lights.
Last week Sarah only had a borrowed light that was better than mine, but comparable to the LED lighting I'm using.
This week, both cavers had enough lumens to fry bats at 50 paces and my LED lighting struggled to contribute.
I think I'm gonna have to carry a roll of electricians tape to calm their lights down so I can control the lighting better :)

First up - the bottom end of the Barnes Loop.
Dunno how I didn't spot I had no lighting on the left hand side; below the lower caver is the streamway entrance to into the lower part of the loop and it is totally missing.
It's really tough down there!
I count this as a near miss - I like the location and it shouldn't be too hard to top this result next time :)
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Tratman's Temple - not a great image.
But by the time I've slept on this and go back I should have worked out what I need to do.
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Tratman's Temple again...
Way too much light on the stalagtites. The caver in the image is illuminating the back of the formations, hence the colour, but the second caver is also illuminating the front - way too much light!
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Here's sump 1.
Last week I floated in the pool past the far caver and waggled my feet in the air on the other side.
But this week the water was about 4 inches higher and we were all a bit cold, so we didn't take the plunge.
Photographically, I'm pleased with this one as the usual image is much closer into the pool with a caver emerging, but I like this as it shows the situation.
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This is Jacobs Ladder - a 15 ft off-vertical squirm at the head of the short dry way.
Now you can see why I'm worried about kicking a Peli case through the upper stretches of the cave!
The shots I had in my mind weren't at all possible, but I'm quite pleased with this as a start point for doing it properly.
The dark hole on the top left is the exit from the zig-zags where I popped out a few weeks ago; entering the chamber it is only possible to see the white stone to put your feet on, and as the rest of you emerges you see the yawning dark abyss underneath - I had a small brown trouser moment as I wished my foot had a better placement :)
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In summary - strewth this cave photography thing is tough.
Can't wait to get my big camera down there though!
 
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paulc said:
I would not consider assembling your body and lens underground and as silly as it sounds I take my Nikon dslr in two (double bagged) aldi freezer bags with a sigma 10-20mm attached, with spare bags to wrap it in when needed but regardless of what you take it in, it will get dirty no matter how careful you are, one other tip on the matter of misting up lenses is just to wipe it seconds before you take the shot.
I would also make a huge effort to take a tripod because it will negate the need for flash because you can expose for as long as you like and light the shot with a torch or headlamp, lastly I always set my focus to manual and set the lens to infinity as this saves trying to focus when you are wet and covered in crap.
Click to expand...
Cheers for that - it's all 100% relevant!
I think (hope) I've solved the condensation problem by having a couple of gel hand-warmers in the barrel with the camera. The padding in the barrel provides insulation and they were still warm after three hours underground.

I'm aiming for a shutter speed of about 1/20s as the water in the wet caves will look lush at that speed; but that's gonna need the big camera at a fairly stupid ISO (which it is more than capable of).
Hence I'm hoping I don't need a tripod in these caves - fingers crossed...
I'm experimenting with my lighting in a large cavern next week and yup, a tripod will 100% be needed for that :)

Manual focus - I didn't use it tonight as the the scatter LED lights gave enough for the X30 auto-focus to work reliably.
But I practised MF before I went down and the X30 is leagues ahead of the 5DIII in this respect as it does focus peaking.
Definitely gonna need to MF in the big cavern next week.
 
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Not done any underground for a couple of years but I always used a LED Lenser P7 torch to light paint my shots. Put my camera inside a Tupperware box lined with bubble wrap in my rucksack and used my old tripod.
Both of these are from the Forest of Dean.
The first is quite a large cavern.

Cavern by =Jules=, on Flickr
Perching by =Jules=, on Flickr
 
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Back in the day it all used to be about medium sized ammo cans on a sling so you could kick the dam thing when it got stuck the medium sized ones had a decent watertight seal too and were available via the likes of Bat Products and Caving Supplies.

Haven't been underground in years either but did a fair amount when I was 14-18


Don't think I have seen anyone mention "painting with light" which is applicable to larger spaces at least it always used to be a struggle to get enough light as black limestone seems to eat it. Sadly the few decent slides I had were lent to a lecturer at the RSM who lost them and the evening messing around shots of nasal yoga I have of some cavers are probably best left in hiding.


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I don't know no one had mentioned light painting then when you hit post someone has posted before you .....

Nice shots there
 
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@abbandon Bat Products aint no more - J-Rat is still a legend around here.
I'm told Ammo Cans are still available if you ask around, but so far none of the local cavers have suggested them as better way forward than a Peli.
I've done a fair bit of light painting above ground and am expecting I'll need to use the technique at some point, but as the local caves are quite tight I'm not expecting to need it for the vast majority of shots.
But as I said in a recent post, I'm off to play in a decent sized cavern next week and I know my lights will be struggling without a tripod and light painting.
 
Always the way:)
Thanks folks. I have a few more but they were all done the same way - camera on tripod with a cable release and then light painted. I pretty much guessed the exposure times and just waved the torch around like an idiot concentrating a bit more on the furthest parts. The first one has two of my friends top left to give you a bit of a sense of scale.
 
Aldi / Lidl occasionally sell some bags that will do the job (I have 6 of them !) Think they are about £5 - 10 but essentially you are looking at a drag bag.
I'll dig one out tomorrow - I leant some to my friend who canoed the entire Danube (1500 miles-ish) last year.
 
@Diving Pete Lidl is my preferred supermarket but I don't think I've seen those, but I'll watch for them.
I've not heard the term 'drag bag', I'll prompt the cavers over a jar of cider tonight.
So far they have been offering a selection of rope sacks for me to try fitting the Peli into when it arrives.

Absolutely epic caving adventure last night during which I shot two locations and came back with a couple of reasonably decent images. Both could be improved, but not by much; it is real progress.
I'll write it up later today.
 
Yesterday afternoon I got a text from Mad Fi (see earlier) asking if I'd like to go an a trip down Swildons Hole through sump 1.
I walked to meet her in a snowstorm and half an inch of snow fell while we were underground, it was a long cold walk back from the cave with soaked through clothing!
I'm pleased I made it all the way to sump 2 and climbed up out of Swildons One into the start of the Troubles.
This is proper caving territory and was flippin difficult; if you want a feel for just how far off the beaten track I got, read this trip report where he broke his collar bone in Swildons One. Worth noting that the first people from the Cave Rescue team on the scene included Sarah, my guide for my five previous trips underground :)
I thoroughly enjoyed swimming down the passages in Swildons One, but got quite badly stuck in a squeeze at the start of the Troubles which is a bit of a worry as there are much tighter squeezes to negotiate elsewhere in the Troubles and that's what they are aiming for me to undertake soon.
It is a measure of how much my fitness is improving that I managed all this, and still had enough energy to take some photos on the way out.

I'd decided to solve the super-bright head torch problem by asking Fi to carry one of my less powerful torches, but she wasn't keen on that as she already has three lights strapped to her helmet and didn't want to carry more weight up there - fair enough.
A quick hunt around the Wessex produced a roll of yellow hazard tape which did the job nicely apart from creating a nasty colour cast which I've largely sorted in PP. Next trip I'll have my own roll of tape!

First was a new location for me to photograph; it is the lower of the infamous Double Pots. Fi's preferred descent method is to dive off the top of the falls into the pools; I climbed around the walls. People frequently fall in, and once you have suffered a ducking in these pots you are considered a Son Of Mendip.
The depth of the water made getting my lights placed quite a challenge, but I think this is working :)
Main change I'd like to do next time is to get the caver to go up and down a few times; I only shot Fi going up and most of the shots are of her back - whoops!
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The second location was a return to Jacobs Ladder, the last location in my previous set.
If you go back and look at that shot then you may well wonder where on earth I took these images from!
Having placed my lights I squirmed up a dead-end cleft running parallel to Jacobs Ladder where once I was wedged in Fi passed my camera through the hole I've shot these from.
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Jacobs ladder is an off-vertical 15ft climb up a narrow rift.
Descending is easy, you can't fall as it is too narrow for that to happen; getting up on the other hand is much more challenging - especially while pushing the camera gear ahead of me.
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Notice how Fi has braced herself simply by bending her legs against the other wall !
Also, her breath is visible in the torchlight neatly illustrating why on-camera flash doesn't work underground.
View attachment 29694

In summary...
My fitness levels are improving enough I can actually get to the locations with sufficient energy left to take photos.
I feel I'm getting to grips with the lighting and am forming ideas about the sort of shots I want to take.
Peli case should be arriving this week and as soon as I can borrow a suitable sack to carry it in I'll be able to take my big camera down - woot woot!

And after that fairly extreme adventure, sitting in front of a roaring fire in the pub tucking into a big juicy steak was one of the most intensely pleasurable experiences I've had in a long time :)
 
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I went on my Redcliffe Caves trip to practise my lighting in relatively benign conditions; it was a lot of fun and I'm pleased with how they turned out.
I managed to light 18 locations in the two hours I had available, and they all produced images, but some worked better than others.
Anyway, here's 4 to amuse yourselves with :)

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The main difference was that I've bought a self-contained LED floodlight - 30W Cree LED and claimed 4 hours runtime.
I was chatting with a cave dive and noted that was what he was using to great effect.
It's lush!

Also - the 5DIII coped far better than the little X30 I've been taking down the 'real' caves on my reccy trips.
Won't be long now - the Peli case has arrived and now I just need a sack large enough to carry it in!
 
DuncanDisorderly said:
Yay - just ordered a Peli 1300 from Amazon (30% discount :))
Advice I've been given is to worry about finding a bag to carry the thing once I've got it so I can check it fits.
Luckily one of the caving bag manufactures isn't too far away, so I should be able to get one fairly quickly.

Then I can get my decent camera down the caves and I'm really looking forward to that! :)
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Maybe Warmbac could make you a bag to measure - or even start a new product line specifically to fit some of the Peli cases?
 
Nod said:
Maybe Warmbac could make you a bag to measure - or even start a new product line specifically to fit some of the Peli cases?
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Great suggestion - Warmbac was my fallback.
The the cavers have recommended a Petzl Transport 45, and they can get one for me at significantly below online prices (and free delivery).
I've tried one for fit and it is just oversized enough I can squeeze a monopod down the side; it's a lovely bit of kit!
It'll also be perfect for taking to West Beach Race is we ever get a repeat of conditions like a couple of years ago :eek:
 
Tonight I took a GoPro down as my only camera - it was 'interesting' :)
Loads of potential shots that I can only take with a waterproof camera and we proved the shot I have in mind of Swildons Sump 1 is possible - can't wait to get back and do it properly!

Experimenting with lighting on the Swildons 20.
Most people end up on the ladder under the waterfall which will make a cracking shot; but my guide was in the mood for keeping dry and she is good enough to avoid the water (I'm not). This has potential to be a cracking shot!
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Alien v Sarah - the alien doesn't stand a chance!
That's a mighty impressive formation and I really can't wait to get my big camera down there...
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I'm sat exactly where I took the previous shot, but this time Sarah has the GoPro - it is a stunning location with so much potential.
Love the shadow puppets :)
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My guide Sarah wasn't in the mood for diving the sump, so I gave her the camera and I did all the loony stuff.
Yup it is under water. Yup there aint a lot of room.
I now know the shot I have in mind is possible - I want the whole arc of rock over the caver as they come through the Sump.
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The reason there isn't an arch of rock is that the water level is too low and there is a slight air gap.
Yup - this is my second time through the sump in this session - someone has to play model :)
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In summary - the GoPro has a lot of pros and cons, but it works!
It doesn't compete with my DSLR, but the images it is capable of producing will add to the set and I'll get a much more vibrant set of images as a result - but I need to think about how to get the best out of the GoPro to make this happen...
 
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Can't really contribute in any meaningful way but I've enjoyed reading the thread and looking at the pictures and links.

I can cope with airy mountain ridges but tight underground spaces would give me the heebie jeebies.
 
Advice [tongue in cheek] stay out of tight spots underground! Saw a snippet of a programme last night which showed a pair of cave divers coming across a wetsuit full of bones... [/tongue in cheek]

Enjoying the shots though!
 
Last night was a 'crawling trip' in Redcliffe Caves, Bristol.
This was the first time I've used the Peli Case, and it did fine other than the foam needs a little taping up as bits of it are coming loose.
I managed to light less scenes than my previous trip, but the conditions were tougher - that's life :rolleyes:
There images have only received rough and ready post-processing in Lightroom; I exposure bracketed everything and there is an awful lot more image quality capable of being extracted from these images. :sneaky:

This first shot was the most uncomfortable I've ever taken.
Cramped and dirty in a disused sewer deep below central Bristol; access was a 10ft climb up a narrow vertical tube with alarmingly unstable edges - eek!
The sewer got tighter and tighter as it ran along, with Sarah (my caving guide) commenting that if she got stuck then it was my job to pull her back out - she's half my size and I'm not even sure I could have reached her boots! Luckily, she found a hole just big enough to turn around in, hence this shot is of her head rather than her boots.
Unfortunately, I got a bit of mud on the lens and wiping it off has produced a smear from her light - thank goodness for Photoshop.
It was REALLY tough down there! :)
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There is a well that drops from street level straight through the caves down to the water table. A hole has been knocked through for inspection; here's Sarah clambering back out.
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The other side of the well with both Sarah and I in the shot.
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Many walls have been built to shore up the caves, some of them have holes punched through for access; the result is a maze of columns and walls that it is ridiculously easy to get lost in.
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We were granted access because there was a caving group being led on a guided tour; they occasionally wandered in and out of where I was photographing.
Here they are posing in a shot I had already set up.
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In summary - that was the first trip with the big camera packed for travel.
Can't wait to take it down a proper cave!
 
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I'll bet they look even better at a decent print size! Not that the baby X is a slouch, just that a DSLR has a bit of an edge.
 
I can't contribute to your questions but I'm enjoying the thread (y) I've always been keen on cave systems whether it's exploring or diving, I've not done any of them though but wish to some day. I'm a certified diver but the furthest I've gone into a cave was only to explore the entrance of one out in Egypt whilst I was exploring some reefs at Dahab in the Red Sea. I'm not sure if you need other qualifications to be allowed to go cave diving? or just an extremely big pair of "cojones".

I've always wanted to explore caves since I was a kid, but it wasn't till I saw this documentary many years ago that made me want to go cave diving. Some very interesting stuff to see down below. Take a look at the video, it's where salt water meets fresh water in a cave, creates an unusual effect.

 
Nod said:
I'll bet they look even better at a decent print size! Not that the baby X is a slouch, just that a DSLR has a bit of an edge.
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Sure does!
Also - I took those at ISO 100 and was checking critical focus - they are blimmin sharp and can be enlarged to pretty much any size I need.
I'm using the 8-15 fisheye lens at 15mm. It's a wonderful lens that is going to get a huge amount of use and abuse during this cave photography project!
 
@CaveDweller Bookmarked for later :jaffa:

My regular cave guide Sarah is a cave diver.
It's an intriguing idea; must be the closest thing to zero-gravity in space.
I can see why I might like it, but the level of skill needed and consequences of a mistake are a bit off-putting......
 
That was a heck of a trip to Swildons; there was enough snow-melt to make the conditions rather sporting - my cave guide Sarah was reassuring me she she been down there in far worse conditions, but it was plenty enough for me!
And I got to take my big camera down for the first time! I've not weighed the sack, but it is darned heavy. I'm using a Petzl Transport 45 which comfortably takes the Peli case with the big camera, a Darren Barrel with accessories and two big LED floodlights. Getting it through the tighter passages at the top of Swildons is a bit of an effort, but I guess I'll get used to it :)

Playing it safe, we only shot two locations; the roaring 20 and the tranquil Barnes Loop.
It was plenty enough for this trip!

Sarah emerging from the Swildons 20
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Getting drenched on the ladder at the Swildons 20
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Tranquillity in the Barnes Loop
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One of the Barnes Loop crawls
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Impressive formations in the Barnes loop
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In summary - I need to get fitter to be able to take my camera gear to the places I want to photograph. However, three months ago it just about killed me getting to this same location carrying nothing and in less challenging conditions - fingers crossed my fitness will carry on improving :)

Edited to replace the small images with medium sized images - they just weren't doing them justice as it is the detail that make these shots!
 
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Nod said:
Duncan, as long as the cavers won't be taking penalties with the Peli full of kit, it shouldn't need too much foam between the kit and the case. The waterproofness will be more important in your situations. I would also suggest using little cable ties through the padlock holes on the Peli - if something can be accidentally opened, it will end up being accidentally opened! Keep a few spares in the case to re"lock" it for each move after shooting. (You'll need something to cut the ties with - they're way too tough to snap!)
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I can now respond to this suggestion!

The weight and bulk is a problem in the upper parts of Swildons and my caving guide could hear my progress by the resounding thumps echoing up the passages from the Peli and Darren Barrel making solid contact with the rock as I pushed, rolled and occasionally threw my bag ahead of me; the passages are way too tight to wear the bag on my back. I'll try and photograph this so I can show others just how flippin tough it is.
For amusement, here's the bag I'm using.
I'm told bags this size are really intended for expedition caving on the continent, and they have much larger passages. Because of this, the bag doesn't have drain holes as it is designed to keep things dry; pushing the bag across pools inevitably led to the bag flooding and the weight became almost too heavy to lift. The bag could do with a handle on the bottom to aid draining!
For the next trip we plan to use the tackle bag used to carry the climbing gear (ladder and rope) to split the load once the gear has been rigged; this will help enormously heading into the more distant section of the cave but I've still got to plan on doing all the lugging myself on the upper stretches.
Fingers crossed I will get better at it!

The Peli 1300 is perfect for the job.
There wasn't a drop of water inside despite full immersion, and it survived the beating with no signs of stress or wear.
I'm feeling a lot more confident about getting my DSLR safely down the caves :)
I decided not to use cable ties because the Peli is inside a very tough sack and hence nothing can get under the latches. If it weren't in the sack then it would be a very real concern!
 
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You may find this interesting.
 
Is the road sign for Wooky Hole still there on the other side of sump 1 in Swildons. As it is years since I have been through the sump.
 
Nikon Fan said:
We did Swildons and GB a few months back, but we went through Mud Sump towards the Shatter Series.
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Shatter series - blimey....
My caving guides are both aiming to get me through the Short Round Trip before too long.
I'm not sure I'll fit - I'm really borderline on my shoulders :eek:
One of the reasons for the concern is I failed to even get up to the Troubles in the reverse direction. Asking around, I got up to where the passage drops though a hole in the floor to get down to the Landing (straight on to the Vicarage), but I failed to get up through the hole in the floor. That squeeze is harder in that direction, but doesn't normally rate a mention on the round trip as the others are far worse :puke:

Hence I'm kinda dreading the Short Round Trip - it could be spectacularly uncomfortable and a complete failure.
But it would be a real achievement, so it's got to be worth a go....
 
Nikon Fan said:
Here is a shot from GB, taken up in the Ladder Dig area. Image taken with a simple point and shoot camera and off camera flash.

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Nice shot (y)
Yup - GB is a lovely cave (see post #1 for my early attempt just using on-camera flash).
I found it considerably easier than Swildons; most of it is like a Gorge Scramble, not a caving trip; and I can do that :)
 
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