Dunnock

looks on the eye to me, (the only thing that is really sharpe),…….. but isn't it more to do with the increased shallowness of DOF at the same aperture with really long lens
Not sure what f-value Denis used…… but depending on the distance I find that even f8 can give a very shallow DOF
 
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Rustydon said:
Eye and bill (not you Bill ;)) look in focus to me Denis (y) - I guess the branch referred to by Phil is in the same plane of focus as the eye.

Russ
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i cannot even see a branch - do you mean part of the tree trunk
 
really nice in this setting.

Rob.
 
BillN_33 said:
looks on the eye to me, (the only thing that is really sharpe),…….. but isn't it more to do with the increased shallowness of DOF at the same aperture with really long lens
Now sure what f-value Denis used…… but depending on the distance I find that even f8 can give a very shallow DOF
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Spot on Bill, 300 2.8 + 1.4, 1/80 at 5.6, iso 640, distance 4.4m = very shallow DOF, the focus point was actually on the eye then lowered slightly to frame the bird, as can be appreciated from the settings, it wasn't to bright.
 
Almost Dernis but not quite I am afraid,slight motion blurr on the head ;)
 
BillN_33 said:
That's cruel Lynne, he did use 1/80th and I bet he "hand held" it
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Nothing cruel about it Bill, a lot of sharp images have been posted at far lower speeds.It is a blurred image imho,what else would you like me to say about it?
 
u8myufo said:
Nothing cruel about it Bill, a lot of sharp images have been posted at far lower speeds.It is a blurred image imho,what else would you like me to say about it?
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Great shot?...........:D

Motion blur on the head, lack of detail and too shallow DOF. If you are doing close up portraits Denis, you really need to nail them well, any fault shows up, alas this does just that.

Sorry for the honest neg crit.
 
u8myufo said:
Sorry Bill,perhaps I have missed something here, but I fail to see what your point is.
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Rich

It is just that we have discussed how to deliver crit recently, as this seemed to be causing problems in the minds of some people ........ I am not one to be "soft" ...... look at the arguments I get into, but I thought that the general opinion was that we should try to be more construction, (I am not saying you are not, by the way) ........... and that is what I have taken "on board"

I said in #4

(focus) "looks on the eye to me, (the only thing that is really sharpe),…….. but isn't it more to do with the increased shallowness of DOF at the same aperture with really long lens
Not sure what f-value Denis used…… but depending on the distance I find that even f8 can give a very shallow DOF"

By the way I am sure Denis knows all this

I never said the shot was "Good shot" or indeed a "Bad Shot", all I tried to do was to imply what the problems, in my opinion, were

I could have said ...... which means exactly what I said

"The only thing that is in focus is the eye
You have used too slow a shutter speed ........ or maybe you should have used a higher ISO value
If you take a shot from that angle you will always have a problem with DOF especially if you use too wide an f-value, and the longer the lens the worse it will be"

I could also add IMHO and that I often make the above errors

Hope this explains my thought process, and all I said was that I felt one of your points was bit "cruel" as Denis had used 1/80th sec

I quite like the shot, particularly the eye, which I find to be the "soul" of the bird and that is what draws me to the shot ........... but I know we aim for perfection in the Bird section

The hand held comment was for amusement as I would think that Denis used a tripod or some support....... so I could even have suggested that he needs to improve his technique

so here we go again discussing how to deliver critique, (again) ...... we all have different ways, and if one person comments on the way it has been delivered by another the debate continues

My answer to you to see #4 was a shorter version of what I said above, but with the need to "read between the lines" a little

So I support I would like to hear from the "experts" what has gone wrong and why rather than what is wrong with (an image)
 
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BillN_33 said:
Rich

It is just that we have discussed how to deliver crit recently, as this seemed to be causing problems in the minds of some people ........ I am not one to be "soft" ...... look at the arguments I get into,

but I said in #4

"looks on the eye to me, (the only thing that is really sharpe),…….. but isn't it more to do with the increased shallowness of DOF at the same aperture with really long lens
Not sure what f-value Denis used…… but depending on the distance I find that even f8 can give a very shallow DOF"

By the way I am sure Denis knows all this

I never said the shot was "Good shot" or indeed a "Bad Shot", all I tried to do was to imply what the problems, in my opinion, were

I could have said ...... which means exactly what I said

"The only thing that is in focus is the eye
You have used too slow a shutter speed ........ or maybe you should have used a higher ISO value
If you take a shot from that angle you will always have a problem with DOF especially if you use too wide an f-value, and the longer the lens the worse it will be"

I could also add IMHO and that I often make the above errors

Hope this explains my thought process, and all I said was that I felt one of your points was bit "cruel" as Denis had used 1/80th sec

I quite like the shot, particularly the eye, which I find to be the "soul" of the bird and that is what draws me to the shot ........... but I know we aim for perfection in the Bird section

The hand held comment was for amusement as I would think that Denis used a tripod ....... so I could even have suggested that he needs to improve his technique

so here we go again discussing how to deliver critique, (again) ...... we all have different ways, and if one person comments on the way it has been delivered by another the debate continues

My answer to you to see #4 was a shorter version of what I said above
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Cruel,really Bill? If I was stood looking at a painting hanging in an art gallery with somebody,I would not be discussing excuses because the artist used the wrong brush or indeed whether he was on his head or arse when he painted it. It has also been discussed in the past, that it helps to give people an idea by adding a bit of information in with the thread to start with.With all due respect,if Denis thought this shot was perfect to start with then so be it, but if not, why post an image which in all honesty is not sharp on the main point of the subject (that being the eye) in a forum dedicated to giving honest crit. I really cannot understand how people find such a simple thing hard to follow.If you think my reply was inappropriate in any shape or form then please feel free to report it.I will not however change my style of replying to anybody just to please an individual.
 
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u8myufo said:
Cruel,really Bill? If I was stood looking at a painting hanging in an art gallery with somebody,I would not be discussing excuses because the artist used the wrong brush or indeed whether he was on his head or arse when he painted it. It has also been discussed in the past, that it helps to give people an idea by adding a bit of information in with the thread to start with.With all due respect,if Denis thought this shot was perfect to start with then so be it, but if not, why post an image which in all honesty is not sharp on the main point of the subject (that being the eye) in a forum dedicated to giving honest crit. I really cannot understand how people find such a simple thing hard to follow.If you think my reply was innapropriate in any shape or form then please feel free to report it.I will not however change my style of replying to anybody just to please an individual.
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I did not think your reply was inappropriate, in any way, all I said was

"That's cruel Lynne, he did use 1/80th and I bet he "hand held" it" ....... I even used "Lynne" and "hand held"

cannot you see the humour in that comment?

but therein lies the problem ........ "it takes two to Tango"

and you are now even suggesting that I "Report you" and the circle continues and "the stakes" escalate - The "good old" Bird Forum!
 
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I'd report him coz he's a fool.;)

As for the picture itself, personally if it were mine I'd not have posted it for the reasons given about the sharpness or lack there of. Regardless of the reasons ie shallow dof, slow ss, camera shake, motion blur etc etc it is a sub standard shot and the OP is capable of far better than this and I'm sure he knows it too.
 
BRASH said:
I'd report him coz he's a fool.;)

As for the picture itself, personally if it were mine I'd not have posted it for the reasons given about the sharpness or lack there of. Regardless of the reasons ie shallow dof, slow ss, camera shake, motion blur etc etc it is a sub standard shot and the OP is capable of far better than this and I'm sure he knows it too.
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:agree::withstupid: times are hard when i have to start agreeing with Brian :facepalm:
 
Looking at the image critically I would agree with the comments as regards the lack of sharpness on the eye, obviously the most important area, the shot was taken at the side of a a path on a walk around at Leyton Moss & was hand held, I did not think that overall the shot was that bad, but with hindsight maybe i should not have posted as it is not 100% perfect, i will strive to do better.
 
deno said:
Looking at the image critically I would agree with the comments as regards the lack of sharpness on the eye, obviously the most important area, the shot was taken at the side of a a path on a walk around at Leyton Moss & was hand held, I did not think that overall the shot was that bad, but with hindsight maybe i should not have posted as it is not 100% perfect, i will strive to do better.
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That's the problem Denis, your usual standard is high and when a lesser shot is posted people compare it to your previous work so hence the critical comments. (y)
 
As I said Neil fair comments, no offence taken.
 
deno said:
Looking at the image critically I would agree with the comments as regards the lack of sharpness on the eye, obviously the most important area, the shot was taken at the side of a a path on a walk around at Leyton Moss & was hand held, I did not think that overall the shot was that bad, but with hindsight maybe i should not have posted as it is not 100% perfect, i will strive to do better.
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That is a fair enough comment Dennis, ok let`s face it we all make mistakes.However in saying that I would try not to post an image up that I knew I could have done better with,I guess I feel people should follow suite as such.And as mentioned by Neil, you have produced better.Different if you were to have posted as a newbie asking the question, why has this not come out sharp.Glad you have taken this in the spirit of things though (y)
 
deno said:
As I said Neil fair comments, no offence taken.
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Well said Denis, nice to see some one not taking offence at what others may say, after all, they are only opinions.
 
Wot the three musketeers said. I agree.
 
All of these arguments could have been spared of everything just agreed with what my underlined but unwritten statement was; the bird isn't sharp lol.

It has been sharpened to try and reclaim aome detail but yeah, just soft. Shame because it was a good pose and well framed. Ah well, you have some excellent shots in your collection so this is just one that didn't work *as well*
 
Phil Young said:
All of these arguments could have been spared of everything just agreed with what my underlined but unwritten statement was; the bird isn't sharp lol.

It has been sharpened to try and reclaim aome detail but yeah, just soft. Shame because it was a good pose and well framed. Ah well, you have some excellent shots in your collection so this is just one that didn't work *as well*
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There was only one "argument", Rich took exception to me calling his comment "cruel" and suggested that if I felt that way I should Report him,

The exact words I used were, "That's cruel Lynne, he did use 1/80th and I bet he "hand held" it" ….. which he took exception to …….. when I said it more in "fun" than anything else, and I thought that was obvious, the fun bit, but he did not appreciate it and then the usual "Like your post" society joined in and mutually admired each other …….. it's just the "Bird Section" - it happens all the time
 
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Bill, you on drugs or summat?
 
fracster said:
Bill, you on drugs or summat?
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not really I am just correcting post #27 with the facts, #27 used the word argument(s) - if there was any it was just one which was one sided

I was think about starting a "Post your Dunnock" thread to support the Bird
 
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FFS here we go again ,denis i,m sure can see the imperfections (which by the way are minor ) and overall its a pleasant image .if we were selling our photos and it had to go before a board meeting to see if it was good enough ,fair does .

BUT the majority of us take photos for pleasure and relaxation ,not for a inquisition by a small gang of so called perfectionists .in my mind there should only be two types of comment

(1) a comment explaining what is wrong in the eye of the viewer AND explaining how to correct it properly and helpfully without ANY bitchy remarks

(2) if you don't like a photo and its not up to your perceived vision of perfection SAY f*** ALL
 
the black fox said:
FFS here we go again ,denis i,m sure can see the imperfections (which by the way are minor ) and overall its a pleasant image .if we were selling our photos and it had to go before a board meeting to see if it was good enough ,fair does .

BUT the majority of us take photos for pleasure and relaxation ,not for a inquisition by a small gang of so called perfectionists .in my mind there should only be two types of comment

Post in the appropriate section then Jeff.
shrug_zpsexazxtcx.gif


(1) a comment explaining what is wrong in the eye of the viewer AND explaining how to correct it properly and helpfully without ANY bitchy remarks

I adopted this approach with one of your shots once, only to be met with dummy spitting ;)

(2) if you don't like a photo and its not up to your perceived vision of perfection SAY f*** ALL
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That is not what this forum is about.:)
 
the black fox said:
FFS here we go again ,denis i,m sure can see the imperfections (which by the way are minor ) and overall its a pleasant image .if we were selling our photos and it had to go before a board meeting to see if it was good enough ,fair does .

BUT the majority of us take photos for pleasure and relaxation ,not for a inquisition by a small gang of so called perfectionists .in my mind there should only be two types of comment

(1) a comment explaining what is wrong in the eye of the viewer AND explaining how to correct it properly and helpfully without ANY bitchy remarks

(2) if you don't like a photo and its not up to your perceived vision of perfection SAY f*** ALL
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If you're taking pictures for pleasure there's a section for that. This is a critique section. Folk are too happy to get their balls tickled by their matey mates but when someone, god forbid, crits a pic because it is in need for improvement folk don't like it. It's f***in' arse attitudes like that which have made me and other stop posting pics on here.
 
the more I look at the Dunnock shot the better it gets …. Denis must be sneakily improving it

Just as an aside, Brian, if I may be so familiar, is it an "unwritten rule" that all the shots in the Bird forum are there to be critiqued - or are they there just for comment unless tagged with the Critique label?



I think that I have become a troll, according to another thread ………. is a troll someone who keep asking questions ……. or just talks a load of rubbish in the minds of some ………. serious question?

This is the internet definition that I got

"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]

This sense of the word troll and its associated verb trolling are associated with Internet discourse, but have been used more widely. Media attention in recent years has equated trolling with online harassment. For example, mass media has used troll to describe "a person who defaces Internet tribute sites with the aim of causing grief to families."[5][6]"
 
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BillN_33 said:
Just as an aside, Brian, if I may be so familiar, is it an "unwritten rule" that all the shots in the Bird forum are there to be critiqued - or are they there just for comment unless tagged with the Critique label?
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No. It is a Critique section the same as any other. No special request has to be made. If the pic is posted here, it's open for critique. The end!!!!
 
BRASH said:
No. It is a Critique section the same as any other. No special request has to be made. If the pic is posted here, it's open for critique. The end!!!!
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so have you and "others" stopped posting images because no one critques them?

(I am not trying to start an argument - I.e. I am not intentionally "trolling" AFAIAA)
 
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BRASH said:
No!! See #33
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so you (and others), have stopped posting on here because of how others comment on images posted on here

(I am not trying to start an argument - i.e. I am not intentionally "trolling" AFAIAA - just discovering all these internet words)

you should both or all three or four of you post more images, I have always found them interesting
 
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BillN_33 said:
so you (and others), have stopped posting on here because of how others comment on images posted on here

(I am not trying to start an argument - i.e. I am not intentionally "trolling" AFAIAA - just discovering all these internet words)

you should both or all three or four of you post more images, I have always found them interesting
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No. I/we're sick of the kiss arse comments given to images that are clearly not all than and when honest crit is given you get snidey remarks contradicting the comments you have honestly given "Ooooh, I think the comp is fine," or "I don't think it's over sharpened," or whatever. Mugs!! Did you mention Trolls? There you go. I'm at work at the moment and too bust to continue this line.
 
BillN_33 said:
so have you and "others" stopped posting images because no one critques them?

(I am not trying to start an argument - I.e. I am not intentionally "trolling" AFAIAA)
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I appreciate that you asked Brian the question Bill but feel I should answer to clear up any thoughts you may have.I have stopped posting mainly due to the fact I sold all my kit off to keep my head above water after the heart attack.Yes I got a little EOS -M which I will endevour to use on a few bird shots if I get the chance,not a top priority at the moment though as I have some product stuff to do for someone shortly.Howevcer in all seriousness, all we are expecting is that if a picture is posted people just share their opinions on it,there is no need for arguements as such. And again, as for your reply " That's cruel Lynne, he did use 1/80th and I bet he "hand held" it " If you meant it in jest then use an appropriate smiley,you know as well as anybody it is difficult to understand what somebody means with a reply like that. And on the other hand if some honest C&C has been given out, and perhaps you or anybody was serious about not agreeing with that said comment, all that has to be done is quote and reply in an adult manner. It`s so bloody simples to create a serious topic of discussion, yet it always gets derailed when somebody gives some honest crit.
 
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