Grey Imports - just don't understand what's going on

[BillN_33]

Have a look at these two EBay listings from the same HK company
They make a point of using the term "UK Warehouse"

Both for a Nikon 600mm f4 VR lens

The first - the price is - £6,795 - and they say - "All price we listing on eBay are final price, UK & some of EU customer won't need to pay any extra cost" - No hidden costs

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UK-Wareho...005&prg=9178&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=261268673590&rt=nc

The second - same company - same lens - price £6,310
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nikon-AF-...005&prg=9178&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=301178003609&rt=nc

The price does not include any VAT/TAX. VAT/TAX is required when import to your country. Please contact us for more information.


Now as I understand VAT - if it is shipped from Hong Kong direct to you, the customer, (unless the shipper has an arrangement with HMRC), then you are importing the lens and have to pay the VAT.

If it is shipped from HK to their UK office, they should be registered for VAT in the UK and even if they aren't they should pay the VAT on import. Then they sell to you at a price plus VAT if registered and a total price if not

With all these "grey imports" shipped from HK, you are importing the lens and are liable for VAT at 20% - if somehow they are using a reputable carrier to get it past the UK C & E and onto you - when Customs and Excise finds out they will come to you for the VAT - it is not the HK suppliers problem, it is a liability that you, as an importer, has incurred.

I know that this has been discussed before, but I cannot understand how these guys in HK, EBay suppliers and say panamoz, get away with it - or more importantly how you as the receiver of goods on which VAT has not been paid, get away with it.

Or is their some "loop hole" that is being exploited legally here

 

[Paul Male]

It's not just VAT though is it, there's import duties as well. Well there is on car parts anyway.

 

[mike_6480]

There is no loop hole it's just customs and excise aren't very good at detecting these things. They usually don't catch stuff so things often go through without any custom charges

 

[scott199]

Also VAT and import costs are based on item value, so in a lot of cases it's done on a 'trust' basis as customs can't check every item, so company's will declare a very small amount and pay the vat or post items as gift or a mixture of both.

 

[BillN_33]

but the VAT liability is not with the HK company it is with the person that receives the goods

 

[scott199]

I mean with the "uk warehouse". So it is more than likely a person/company that will 'partner' the HK company, this way they can declare a very small amount and the partner will cover the vat

 

[ChasG]

When I purchased an item from a Hong Kong source it was imported via Germany. I wonder if this has any effect.

In addition I noticed that the most expensive version of a lens or other photographic equipment on Ebay it is, more often than not, despatched from Germany.

Perhaps it involves some sort of Belgian or Irish VAT and tax arrangement as per Starbucks, Amazon etc.

My two pennorth.

 

[BRASH]

Bottom line is if yer not happy with what's being offered don't give them yer custom. That way no problems land at your feet. Sorted.

 

[BillN_33]

If it came from anywhere in the EU that would be OK

 

[big soft moose]

a lot of bstuff from certain retailers comes in miscdeclared as toy parts or "low value gift" - which is fine (so long as you are okay with commiting a tax evasion offence) , but if it does get stopped at customs you'll have to pay the extra to get your hands on the lens...the reailer then may or may not refund the extra depending on their policy and reputation.

 

[StewartR]

Have a look at these two EBay listings from the same HK company...

Actually they aren't the same company, which is why they gave different prices.

Incidentally this is a great illustration of how lucrative it can be for Hong Kong retailers who facilitate VAT evasion. The best UK price for this lens is currently £7000 at Jessops. They won't be making much of a profit on that maybe £200 tops and possibly much less. So the price in the first eBay ad, £6795 including VAT, is a welcome but hardly earth-shattering improvement, and that retailer won't be making much profit either. However, £6795 including VAT is £5662 excluding VAT - but the price in the second eBay ad is £6310. So that retailer is making an extra £648 profit on the sale, which probably triples or quadruples their profit margin. You can see why they do it!

 

[leezer3]

Read the small(er) print:

Please note that we may ship from our main warehouse outside UK via DHL Express, Fedex Express to avoid any delay. The delivery normally will take about 3-8 working day for delivery

Then look at the negative and neutral feedback- People complaining that their items were shipped from HK (Not the UK!), and they were either late or charged import duty & VAT.

I absolutely guarantee that these will be shipped direct from HK.
The UK Warehouse in the title is simply BS aimed at drawing customers who don't read closely enough in with the false hope that they're ordering from a UK based supplier.

 

[ricky1980]

In doubt ask and check small prints. If all not well raise it with eBay and get your money back or etc. Although, one finer point about buying stuff from HK or other countries, if you don't like what u have and want your money back, you will probably need to send the item back. There lies the sellers' key con. It probably cost them £50 to post from far East to UK but the return journey is likely to cost £££s if you want to declare and insure the full value of the item. Would u ever send a 7000 kit without full insurance. So no matter what happens if things don't go well, you will be out of pocket by so much you maybe better off buying UK.

Not entirely sure if u can refuse delivery when you collect your item from the courier when they ask for Import tax and VAT. If I was in that situation and did not expect the extra tax then I would simply refuse delivery and get the damn thing sent back. And claim money back from credit card company or the retailer.

 

[BillN_33]

Richard

DigitalRev who feature quite prominent on here seems to be very good and trustworthy and the prices are very competitive - so it's a matter on choosing with care and not taking the "cheapest" - the "reduced" guarantee/warranty is always a major consideration.

 

[ricky1980]

I appreciate digital rev would be good as they have UK partners or something like that for anything that does go wrong. I was making the point against the eBay ones. I have had experience is this matter although not camera gear but equally high value bike gear. And the seller was demanding me to return the product for evaluation when they didn't send complete packages and the postage for a fully insured postage was nearly £350...ebay/PayPal couldn't do anything as it was their policy that refunds can only be arranged if the product was returned to base. So I had to get my money back through credit card company.

 

[hollis_f]

Not entirely sure if u can refuse delivery when you collect your item from the courier when they ask for Import tax and VAT. If I was in that situation and did not expect the extra tax then I would simply refuse delivery and get the damn thing sent back. And claim money back from credit card company or the retailer.

And then the retailer tells you to go and....

At which point you can try to sue them - in the HK court system (which is what you agree to when you buy from them).

 

[ricky1980]

i dont believe you need to go to the court if you used credit card, which is what I will stipulate for all foreign transactions. Although it is also worth while to verify with your own credit card company their protections system. UK has credit protection systems by default - stipulated by FSA and so forth. but the transaction is in foreign country which may complicate mattes. Personally I have not had this issue with my credit card provider which is an American Express card.

 

[big soft moose]

i dont believe you need to go to the court if you used credit card, which is what I will stipulate for all foreign transactions. Although it is also worth while to verify with your own credit card company their protections system. UK has credit protection systems by default - stipulated by FSA and so forth. but the transaction is in foreign country which may complicate mattes. Personally I have not had this issue with my credit card provider which is an American Express card.

that's a commonly held belief but unfortunately its b*****ks - sect 73 protection doesn't apply if they use a third party card processor like googlecheckout, malscart or paypal (which nearly all grey companies do) because a direct relationship doesn't exist between card company and retailer - you can argue for an indirect relationship but most card companies will tell you to go forth and multiply

Also you can't refuse delivery because of import tax / vat because you are the importer not the company in HK or wherever, so its you that owes the money to HMRC , who will expect you to pay up (saying "oh I didn't expect to have to pay that" in this situation is a bad idea with a capital B, because that's an implicit admission of intent to evade tax).

bottom line if you get caught for import tax (or if as an honest soul you admit it) just man up and pay it - then try and claim it back from the supplier - whether you'll be successful varies with retailer - anecdotal evidence suggests that panamoz reimburse without question, but some other companies specifically say they won't in their T&C. (or buy from a company that supplies to the customer from a uk base like Hdew or kerso , because in that situation you aren't the importer so the whole point is moot)

 

[Gremlin]

I'll ask the question about not paying tomorrow at work.
We get quite a lot of custom charged stuff come through RM and have to collect from the customer.
RM pay the charges and then charge an £8 handling fee, which can make some cheaper items a tad
expensive.
There really doesn't seem to be any pattern to what gets charged, it can be labelled in any way, and
any value

 

[ricky1980]

I

that's a commonly held belief but unfortunately its b*****ks - sect 73 protection doesn't apply if they use a third party card processor like googlecheckout, malscart or paypal (which nearly all grey companies do) because a direct relationship doesn't exist between card company and retailer - you can argue for an indirect relationship but most card companies will tell you to go forth and multiply

Also you can't refuse delivery because of import tax / vat because you are the importer not the company in HK or wherever, so its you that owes the money to HMRC , who will expect you to pay up (saying "oh I didn't expect to have to pay that" in this situation is a bad idea with a capital B, because that's an implicit admission of intent to evade tax).

bottom line if you get caught for import tax (or if as an honest soul you admit it) just man up and pay it - then try and claim it back from the supplier - whether you'll be successful varies with retailer - anecdotal evidence suggests that panamoz reimburse without question, but some other companies specifically say they won't in their T&C. (or buy from a company that supplies to the customer from a uk base like Hdew or kerso , because in that situation you aren't the importer so the whole point is moot)

A few corrections...
1) it's section 75 not 73
2) I have stipulated the requirement to check with credit provider to make sure protection exist
3) section 75 applies even to online payment systems such as PayPal and Google check out. It is design to protect purchases using credit regardless how the credit is transfered.

Also I am not sure if this is the case, but there is no stopping you from refusing paying the custom tax and after a certain time has lapsed the item will be shipped back to sender as default. I think you maybe utter a load of rubbish to tone the language in the tone you have used.

Lastly as I have also stated from my personal experiences that I have successfully claimed money back from credit card providers when things go wrong with foreign sales and through using paypal. So I think you are chatting sh&t there.

 

[big soft moose]

I
3) section 75 applies even to online payment systems such as PayPal and Google check out. It is design to protect purchases using credit regardless how the credit is transfered.

erm , no it doesn't

see this from money saving expert (who are slightly more likely to know what they are talking about than you) http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases#exceptions

You're unlikely to be covered when payments are made to a company that isn't the one providing you with the product or service. In these cases, the credit card company usually says it didn't have a direct relationship with the supplier, so isn't equally liable.
If you stand your ground, it's possible to argue that the indirect relationship constitutes an arrangement to pay. The Court of Appeal decided this was acceptable in 2006, but it's unlikely to be an easy task.
The first main area is paying via an online processor such as PayPal, WorldPay or Google Wallet. Though these can have their own refund systems, they aren't as strong as the legal protection of Section 75.

Also I am not sure if this is the case, but there is no stopping you from refusing paying the custom tax and after a certain time has lapsed the item will be shipped back to sender as default.

again , I'm sorry but that's rubbish - when you import an item the HMRC will expect you to pay import tax and vat (they usually collect via the courier but it is still an HMRC charge) You can't refuse to pay the tax any more than you can refuse to pay any other kind of tax. It won't be shipped back to the vendor because you have already paid for it and imported it yourself - if you default on the tax that's between you and the HMRC , and if you think default in your tax is a smart move ... well that's up to you but most people would be well advised to avoid getting a penalty notice issued against them and winding up in court

Golden rule of giving advice on such matters "first know what you are talking about"

(as far as getting money back from your credit card - card companies can choose to offer resolution services even where sect 75 doesn't apply - but its not a legal right in those circs so they can equally chose not to)

I think you maybe utter a load of rubbish to tone the language in the tone you have used...... chatting s***
.

English isn't your first language is it ? - do you work for a grey importer in HK by any chance ? (the phrase you were looking for is "talking s***")

 

[ricky1980]

erm , no it doesn't

see this from money saving expert (who are slightly more likely to know what they are talking about than you) http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases#exceptions





again , I'm sorry but that's rubbish - when you import an item the HMRC will expect you to pay import tax and vat (they usually collect via the courier but it is still an HMRC charge) You can't refuse to pay the tax any more than you can refuse to pay any other kind of tax. It won't be shipped back to the vendor because you have already paid for it and imported it yourself - if you default on the tax that's between you and the HMRC , and if you think default in your tax is a smart move ... well that's up to you but most people would be well advised to avoid getting a penalty notice issued against them and winding up in court

Golden rule of giving advice on such matters "first know what you are talking about"

(as far as getting money back from your credit card - card companies can choose to offer resolution services even where sect 75 doesn't apply - but its not a legal right in those circs so they can equally chose not to)
English isn't your first language is it ? - do you work for a grey importer in HK by any chance ? (the phrase you were looking for is "talking s***")

let me see, get your facts right to start as you clearly do not know what you are talking about because you dont know what section 73 or section 75 is. so to quote your own "Golden rule of giving advice on such matters - first know what you are talking about"

**Mod Edit**
Last sentence removed
Personal abuse is unacceptable!

 

[jakeblu]

again , I'm sorry but that's rubbish - when you import an item the HMRC will expect you to pay import tax and vat (they usually collect via the courier but it is still an HMRC charge) You can't refuse to pay the tax any more than you can refuse to pay any other kind of tax. It won't be shipped back to the vendor because you have already paid for it and imported it yourself - if you default on the tax that's between you and the HMRC , and if you think default in your tax is a smart move ... well that's up to you but most people would be well advised to avoid getting a penalty notice issued against them and winding up in court

Not so sure about that Pete. MinL bought some undies online as an Xmas pressie and it turns out the were in the USA. (This is what happens when you let OAP's on the internet). She received a postcard from RM stipulating amount to be paid, never paid amount never had door kicked in at 3am by HMRC. Ok so it was less than £20 but still.....

 

[Garry Edwards]

Firstly, you need to understand how these "Companies" actually work.
Normally, regardless of what they claim in their Ebay listings, they operate as a stockless model. They actually consist of no more than a stall in a shopping mall, and everyone else in that shopping mall is in the same or a very similar business, that's how Chinese business works.
When they get an order from you, they just wander off their stall and buy the product from someone else in the same shopping mall. Prices are very competitive so they won't be making much on it, if they then do everything legitimately, and margins on popular and new model lenses are tiny to start with - and whether or not this is admitted, the major manufacturers have a global pricing policy anyway, which means that the price in HK, Shanghai or the UK is pretty much the same. I tried to buy a Nikon 24-70 lens in Shanghai but found that the cost was slightly higher than from WEX...

So, to make a much higher profit, they sell it at an inflated price (that they would never get from their local customers) and mis-declare the value of the goods on the Customs form. Packing is usually pretty amateurish, so that our own Customs think that it's from a private individual rather than a business, and because of this, and their very limited resources, most of these parcels don't get checked by Customs. If they do get checked it will become your problem, not that of the seller. Customs won't look for the seller, who has made a fraudulent statement on the Customs form, and even if they did, he would be impossible to find.

The seller also makes extra profit because he doesn't stand by his products, or give any kind of real guarantee. As far as he is concerned, if the goods arrive damaged or faulty then it's your fault for buying from him in the first place. Some actually include impossible terms in their small print, for example they say that faulty or damaged goods can be returned at your expense for exchange but must be received by the seller within 7 days of purchase (which is usually before you actually get them). All that these people are actually concerned about is making sure that your PayPal payment doesn't get reversed and that you don't leave negative feedback, so in the event of a problem they will keep the conversation with you going via email, making every possible false promise, until it's too late to get your money back or to leave negative feedback.

Of course, they may well be 100% legitimate businesses operating in HK and selling via Ebay as well, but what I've described above is the typical scenario.

So, if you buy a lens (or anything else) from a seller in HK, just be aware that you aren't getting a bargain at all and that you will be on your own if there is something wrong with it, or if it isn't as described, or if Customs open it. And also be aware that the main reason why camera shops in this country are struggling to survive is because they don't trade dishonestly.

 

[simonblue]

Well i just buy from UK shops or s/h

 

[SFTPhotography]

Well i just buy from UK shops or s/h

That's great.

 

[big soft moose]

let me see, get your facts right to start as you clearly do not know what you are talking about because you dont know what section 73 or section 75 is. so to quote your own "Golden rule of giving advice on such matters - first know what you are talking about"
!

yes because me making a typo is exactly the same as you writing a whole load of factually incorrect rubbish about what sect 75 allows and giving terrible advice based on your misunderstanding of the law :bang:

my facts above are right with the sole exception that i typed 75 when i meant 73

 

[ricky1980]

yes because me making a typo is exactly the same as you writing a whole load of factually incorrect rubbish about what sect 75 allows and giving terrible advice based on your misunderstanding of the law :bang:

my facts above are right with the sole exception that i typed 75 when i meant 73

Is that a world of brown stuff again? How fat is your finger? Two inches wide, last I checked the number runs from 1,2,3,4,5 and that is reflected on the keyboard.

Giving you the benefit of doubt on this. You still completely ignorantly read my original post.

So...

 

[big soft moose]

Yes, I have - your first post is rubbish, the UK does not have "credit protection systems by default" for transactions where the payment is processed by a third party and the relationship with the supplier is thus indirect (because these are exempt from sect 75). This applies to all credit card including American Express, and it is irrelevant whether it is in the uk or abroad

i dont believe you need to go to the court if you used credit card, which is what I will stipulate for all foreign transactions. Although it is also worth while to verify with your own credit card company their protections system. UK has credit protection systems by default - stipulated by FSA and so forth. but the transaction is in foreign country which may complicate mattes. Personally I have not had this issue with my credit card provider which is an American Express card.

your card holder can choose to refund you regardless of the fact that they don't have to (which will be what you've experienced with Amex, assuming of course that you arent "chatting s***" about the whole thing) as a gesture of customer service , but to say that you are protected on transactions of this type is both wholly incorrect and misleading, and if we are charitable shows a misunderstanding of how the law stands.

This situation is not limited to grey importers and would equally aplly to transaction in the uk where the credit card payment was proccesed by a third party - however at least within the uk you have other options to reclaim your money (such as small claims court) which are not an option if you buy from beyond our borders

 

[Dave *]

Is that a world of brown stuff again? How fat is your finger? Two inches wide, last I checked the number runs from 1,2,3,4,5 and that is reflected on the keyboard.

Giving you the benefit of doubt on this. You still completely ignorantly read my original post.

So...

Ricky, you are making yourself look stupid, there's a saying about stop digging when you're in a hole...

 

[OldCarlos]

Ricky, you are making yourself look stupid, there's a saying about stop digging when you're in a hole...

Maybe that's just a British saying?

Confucius said; A man who has committed a mistake and doesn't correct it is committing another mistake.

 

[big soft moose]

Maybe that's just a British saying?

Confucius said; A man who has committed a mistake and doesn't correct it is committing another mistake.

did he also day "man with hand in pocket feel cocky all day long"

 

[Dave *]

did he also day "man with hand in pocket feel cocky all day long"

He did say "man who walk naked through swing doors is going to Bangkok"

 

[OldCarlos]

He could have been referring to the wait for an apology when saying; Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in.

 

[ricky1980]

did he also day "man with hand in pocket feel cocky all day long"

a quick google on section 75 shows...

Payments through Paypal
There are some transactions where the company that deals with your credit card payment is not the same as the one that provides the goods or service - such as Paypal.
If you use your credit card to pay for something through PayPal and the funds go direct to the seller, then as long as the company you're buying from has a 'Commercial Entity Agreement' with Paypal you may still be able to claim under Section 75 for any misrepresentation or breach of contract.
PayPal offers its own buyer protection scheme, called PayPal Buyer Protection, so it's worth checking if you'd be covered by that if you have a problem with your purchase.

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act#link-5

MOD EDIT: Come on, no swearing.

 

[Dave *]

edited to remove quote.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

a quick google on section 75 shows...

Payments through Paypal
There are some transactions where the company that deals with your credit card payment is not the same as the one that provides the goods or service - such as Paypal.
If you use your credit card to pay for something through PayPal and the funds go direct to the seller, then as long as the company you're buying from has a 'Commercial Entity Agreement' with Paypal you may still be able to claim under Section 75 for any misrepresentation or breach of contract.
PayPal offers its own buyer protection scheme, called PayPal Buyer Protection, so it's worth checking if you'd be covered by that if you have a problem with your purchase.

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act#link-5

so please stfu and go shove your trolling somewhere else! dicks

It only says you "may still be able to claim" so that can also mean that "you may not".

 

[big soft moose]

indeed and as I said earlier

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases#exceptions says

You're unlikely to be covered when payments are made to a company that isn't the one providing you with the product or service. In these cases, the credit card company usually says it didn't have a direct relationship with the supplier, so isn't equally liable.
If you stand your ground, it's possible to argue that the indirect relationship constitutes an arrangement to pay. The Court of Appeal decided this was acceptable in 2006, but it's unlikely to be an easy task.
The first main area is paying via an online processor such as PayPal, WorldPay or Google Wallet. Though these can have their own refund systems, they aren't as strong as the legal protection of Section 75.

end of the day I strongly suspect mr Wong may be involved with a grey retailer, and thus may have a vested interest in people believing transactions are protected when in fact they may not be

Bottom line though to be clear, without going into the rights and wrongs of the ethics of grey retail , is that if you use a supplier with a good reputation you'll probably be okay , if you use some fly by night could be anyone supplier then the chances of getting ripped off are much higher, and in that case your credit card co will be your best (probably only) hope of getting your money back - but the chances are that they'll be acting out of the customer service not obligation (although that said its a better bet than paying by bank transfer or god forbid paypal gift or western union)

My last thought on this (returning to the question posed in the OP) is with any transaction whether its uk, grey, or dodgy dave dealing out of his Datsun behind the Dog and Duck , if a deal seems too good to be true, it probably is

 

[big soft moose]

You've got his joke wrong, the punch line is "cocky" not "dicks", I know they can both lead to the same innuendo, but it doesn't work as well .

Man who walks naked into confectioners is going to have bendicks

 

[Matt]

end of the day I strongly suspect mr Wong may be involved with a grey retailer, and thus may have a vested interest in people believing transactions are protected when in fact they may not be

thats pretty racist to assume that just cos the guy is called Wong he is a connected to the hong kong retailers?! Did you run out of knowledge that youve found on google and just decided to resort to that instead?

interesting thread ruined by overly defensive posts and massive ironies.