What does it take?

Sporty_Tog

Sporty_Tog

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I've been a news photographer for about two years now. The speed of delivery of shots is nothing new to me and the prospect of shooting sports landed on my lap.

I recently had the opportunity to shoot some Scottish football games. Started on smaller games, did a bigger one, then smaller and then did a league 2 game a few weeks ago. I absolutely love it and feel like it was meant to be, until the reality of it all sank in.

To compete in this industry, it seems like there will be many mountains to get over. There's at least 6 other togs at games and SNS Group seem to have it all wrapped up with contracts etc. I've read through the need for Dataco licensing and the requirements for that. I'm under no illusion that I'll need a long lens, second body and a few other things to accompany my 5D3 and 70-200.

When it's all added up it's a pretty steep investment before you've even been allowed in or managed to get signed on by anyone that can get you accredited for games.

When I started in the news side, I got the usual comments from other togs "There's no room" and "There's no money in it", however, I've managed alright.

Is it all worth it?
How much is the industry diluted with togs?
Is there a particular agency to avoid or help out folk like me?

I'm not looking to take over. I have a full time job for income but often have free time at the weekend and this is just perfect for me. It's just a shame to not be able to use the images I've captured. I'd like to sell some on the odd occasion to keep up the tearsheet count but I understand that i'ts not going to be as simple as that.

Any advice welcome

ST
 
Sporty_Tog said:
I've been a news photographer for about two years now. The speed of delivery of shots is nothing new to me and the prospect of shooting sports landed on my lap.

I recently had the opportunity to shoot some Scottish football games. Started on smaller games, did a bigger one, then smaller and then did a league 2 game a few weeks ago. I absolutely love it and feel like it was meant to be, until the reality of it all sank in.

To compete in this industry, it seems like there will be many mountains to get over. There's at least 6 other togs at games and SNS Group seem to have it all wrapped up with contracts etc. I've read through the need for Dataco licensing and the requirements for that. I'm under no illusion that I'll need a long lens, second body and a few other things to accompany my 5D3 and 70-200.

When it's all added up it's a pretty steep investment before you've even been allowed in or managed to get signed on by anyone that can get you accredited for games.

When I started in the news side, I got the usual comments from other togs "There's no room" and "There's no money in it", however, I've managed alright.

Is it all worth it?
How much is the industry diluted with togs?
Is there a particular agency to avoid or help out folk like me?

I'm not looking to take over. I have a full time job for income but often have free time at the weekend and this is just perfect for me. It's just a shame to not be able to use the images I've captured. I'd like to sell some on the odd occasion to keep up the tearsheet count but I understand that i'ts not going to be as simple as that.

Any advice welcome

ST
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It really depends how far you want to go in the industry. Its entirely your call.
Ive been doing it over 10 years and im still trying to get to my end point. Luckily for me im still
a young en compared to alot who do it, they have been doing it a long time and it shows in their work.
You HAVE to be into it more than just a hobby. I work 2 jobs to fund my gear ( which is the latest spec's pretty much)
Spent a fortune on it over the years. Mishap after mishap havent stopped me.
Not only doing 50 hour weeks, i do 2/3 football matches a week if possible, plus other sports as well as weddings.
If you put the time in, you'll get the money in, and maybe get noticed about the grounds which may lead to other things.
One things for sure, no one will come pestering you to shoot sports photography unless your good and reliable.
 
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There is however no reason why you can't shoot your local team at the weekend and earning a few quid
 
Sporty_Tog said:
To compete in this industry
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what industry?


this is where so many people are going so so sooo wrong... what industry is it you want to get into.. theres being a sports photographer.. and theres wanting to sit at big games lapping up the atmosphere and making money as well... ones an industry.. the others a schoolboy (or mid life crisis) dream..
 
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It will only get much harder as news agencies, media, papers etc start pulling stills from video coverage and with 4K on the horizon to the masses the pitchside photographer in the traditional sense might actually struggle to earn a crust
 
Gary Coyle said:
It will only get much harder as news agencies, media, papers etc start pulling stills from video coverage and with 4K on the horizon to the masses the pitchside photographer in the traditional sense might actually struggle to earn a crust
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also lately ..add to your above problems the fact that so many agencies are doing deals with media outlets leaving even less crumbs for freelancers and WW

None of which will effect me much :)
 
I refer to the industry as the genre really. Football photography being the industry. I got in contact with an agency who said that while my images were not bad, the fact that I can't cover the whole field of play would be a concern so in this instance having the right gear would be advantageous. Yes the atmosphere is great, there's no denying that. I tend not to try and get distracted by what's going around me unless the fans are all fighting.

I've already started seeing the same people at the games and while some are very friendly, there's some who'd rather you weren't there at all. I always get the question "Who are you uploading to?" I just say no one. It's not a lie. They settle down a bit after that.

I guess my ultimate goal would be to be able to cover any game. For instance that Scotland v England game would have been amazing to cover, however, the SFA won't even answer the emails of anyone not in an agency or media outlet.
 
Sporty_Tog said:
"Who are you uploading to?" I just say no one. It's not a lie.

the SFA won't even answer the emails of anyone not in an agency or media outlet.
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Hmmmm, yes. I wonder why that is?

Could it possibly be that media slots are limited and that they are reserved for people that are actually, um, er, you know, um, working?
 
DemiLion said:
You aren't a news/press photographer then.
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Maybe not and yes that's been said to me before but I've developed a thick skin to that one. I don't accept that in order to be titled you need to be doing it full time. There's a whole legion of protogs out there who work days jobs and have successful photography business' I have 14 national usages all paid for this year alone via Demotix and the British Association of Journalists seem to accept that I am a news photographer else they would have have let me join. The NUJ asked me to speak to them about membership to so maybe I should have explained myself a wee bit more before I typed up the thread. I didn't feel it was necessary based on what I was asking. It was merely to express that I have experience in dealing with the papers/media etc etc. I just don't want to approach the sports side of things in the same way it's it's totally different and in this game you're rarely forgiven for your mistakes.
 
Sporty_Tog said:
I don't accept that in order to be titled you need to be doing it full time.
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And yet that is exactly what the Gatekeeper requirements are. Not that some issuing bodies actually stick to that, more's the shame.
 
In my mind, decent money can be made in sports photography from deals with the agencies that run the sponsors. Usage in newspapers is a nice by-product that provides a bit of pocket money, which is all it really is these days.

Specific clients need specific things, which if you are able to deliver 100% reliably time after time, they will pay good cash. Additionally, as the clubs need the sponsors you tend to get treated much better than would otherwise be the case.

It is much harder than just covering the game itself as you would shooting for newspapers, and longer hours as well. Those of you who know me know that I do this sort of stuff, and it's only through hard work and over-delivering that you can get a look-in. As well as the photography side of things, you need to be a very effective organiser, highly professional in your dealings with everyone you come across, and very very reliable.

When I first started out I was in the same boat as the OP - how on earth do you get on the ladder, how to get a press card etc etc. The answer is hard work, and optimising the opportunities afforded by all your contacts. These days though it's difficult to make sensibel money precisely because there is so much supply. Specialising in a particular area (e.g. sponsor photography) helps to maximise opportunities. You might want to select a less popular sport with lots of rich people in it (try polo!!) and cut your teeth on that.
 
I've got nothing against new-commers what-so-ever. I do, however, have a touch of a problem with people who make claims like ' I've been a news photographer for about two years now' when they are hobbiests at best and have the gaul
to talk about Demotix publications (worth about 70p) whilst stating that they have a fulltime job for income.

You want to treatr it as a hobby and take up someone else's slot who is trying to work and earn money? Yup, I don't like that in the slightest.

Do what everyone else does. Learn your craft and earn your spurs by working from the bottom upwards rather than trying to jump in at the top and expect everyone to welcome you.
 
I do all manner of sports.. but the best money is always in football.. I make most of my money by being the only photogrpaher at the sports event... no point being at old trafford on spec hoping for a sale beating the other 50 photogrpahers most on wages or commisions.. better to be somewhere where theres only you.. anyone wnts a picture they have to come to you.. thats the industry

tobers is right.. hard work and lots of hrs..

i have never had a problem wiht weekend photographers... no reason why they cant run a part time freelance photo job on top of there full time job.. ..its weekend people who just want to go to big games and make money from newspaper sales at anfield and wembley etc that wind me up. no grass roots grounding.. no practice.. I havv a camera send me to the preemiership... its a pipe dream...
 
demotix? haha.. seriously whats the point in that? and how are you selling pics on there if you ahvent a licence?
 
DemiLion said:
I've got nothing against new-commers what-so-ever. I do, however, have a touch of a problem with people who make claims like ' I've been a news photographer for about two years now' when they are hobbiests at best and have the gaul
to talk about Demotix publications (worth about 70p) whilst stating that they have a fulltime job for income.

You want to treatr it as a hobby and take up someone else's slot who is trying to work and earn money? Yup, I don't like that in the slightest.

Do what everyone else does. Learn your craft and earn your spurs by working from the bottom upwards rather than trying to jump in at the top and expect everyone to welcome you.
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Actually get paid pretty well from Demotix (I don't sell any footy pics, only news). Wouldn't have a 5D III otherwise, and yes the taxman does know thanks.

I thought I was starting from the bottom up, you made that point pretty clear by shoving the agency I shoot news images for right down to the bottom of the pile. Is TIME a 70p publication? That was my last usage. I'm not jumping in at the top, or expecting hand outs. You have assumed this, just because of your prejudice against me because you don't think I work hard enough to get to where I am.

I could have lied through my teeth about my history and you'd have answered with a totally different attitude. I don't expect any respect on the internet, after all we can all be whoever we like. I thought, I'd be honest, and to the point, however, I'm starting to see that there's a minority of folk who despise the guy with a day job, before they've even seen a picture.
 
KIPAX said:
i have never had a problem wiht weekend photographers... no reason why they cant run a part time freelance photo job on top of there full time job.. ..its weekend people who just want to go to big games and make money from newspaper sales at anfield and wembley etc that wind me up. no grass roots grounding.. no practice.. I havv a camera send me to the preemiership... its a pipe dream...
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Yip that would do my head in too. Hence why I'll make a point of not picking up those requests. It's more about just taking pics at a match. It's the conduct at the game, and not looking like an absolute newcomer fumbling about with no clue because it's your first time at the stadium/ground. Settle the nerves with lower league games and building it up, and do one big fixture with someone. That's how I've done it so far.

KIPAX said:
demotix? haha.. seriously whats the point in that? and how are you selling pics on there if you ahvent a licence?
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Yeah folk laugh a lot with Demotix. I can't complain. The Guardian buy my shots a lot. It works for me.
 
Sporty_Tog said:
Yeah folk laugh a lot with Demotix. I can't complain. The Guardian buy my shots a lot. It works for me.
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My point was.. surely your cut from demotix is rubish.. as far as I know its pennies.... If its news why do you need demotix.. why not send direct to papers and get the full fee.. hundreds of pounds...
 
I find it very surprising that this forum, which I have found nothing but helpful, has an ugly side as well. People are happy to critique and help out hobbyists but when it comes to the money side of things, the claws come out.

Of all on the posts on this thread, only a couple have helpfully answered the OP's question. All the other posts have criticised his question, the agency that he works for, the fact that he has a daytime job, the kind of games he wants to shoot and the lack of a licence - none of which he wanted advice about.

So what if he is a weekend tog trying to work his way up as a sports photographer? After all, everybody has to start somewhere. Kudos to him for trying to follow his dream and if he chooses to keep his family and himself fed and watered by means of another job at the same time, that should be respected rather than ridiculed. If he had given up his day job and come here to post that he was starting off as a full time sports photographer, he would have been ripped to shreds about trying to jump into the game with no experience at all. You just can't win sometimes!

I think it was a well worded, respectful and succinct question that does not merit the abuse he has received so far. Unfortunately, I do not have the experience required to answer his questions. I can only hope thats someone comes along that does and that this thread resumes some semblance of normalcy.
 
nuttyboy78 said:
Unfortunately, I do not have the experience required to answer his questions.
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The thing is that if you don't have enough experience to answer the question then you also don't have enough experience to understand that what I posted above isn't 'ugly', 'getting the claws out' or even rude. It's straight forward factual.
As is Kipax's advice.

Life as a press/sports photographer isn't a land of milk and honey.

If this post had started with 'How do I' rather than 'I am' the result would have been significantly different.
 
DemiLion said:
The thing is that if you don't have enough experience to answer the question then you also don't have enough experience to understand that what I posted above isn't 'ugly', 'getting the claws out' or even rude. It's straight forward factual.
As is Kipax's advice.

Life as a press/sports photographer isn't a land of milk and honey.

If this post had started with 'How do I' rather than 'I am' the result would have been significantly different.
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My not having experience as a sports photographer does not mean that I cannot understand the tone of a conversation. I have a lot of experience in my own specialty, which involves a lot of human contact and conversation and I don't need to have an IQ of over 200 to see that what has been said is not helpful. Criticism needs to be constructive, not destructive to the point that the OP thinks "Why bother"?

Life in any field isn't a land of milk and honey. Not in yours, not in mine. We just need to deal with it and help each other.
 
nuttyboy78 said:
I do not have the experience required to answer his questions.
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so your input to this thread is to moan at the poeple who do.... hmm nice
 
too many cry babies for me..... said my bit.. take it or leave it.....



next :)
 
KIPAX said:
so your input to this thread is to moan at the poeple who do.... hmm nice
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Well, somebody has to stand up to the bullies........ ;)
 
Are we trying to outdo the bird forum or OOF? It's been so pleasant in here lately. Let's keep it that way please. I've started to like my quiet Friday nights with a glass or two of wine.
 
nuttyboy78 said:
Well, somebody has to stand up to the bullies........ ;)
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It's a very poorly moderated forum.I was called an idiot on one post and that was backed up by a moderator liking it. Same people time and time again.I have complained to Marcel the administrator but very little seems to be done.
 
You weren't called an idiot at all. If you were called an idiot we would have deleted it and dealt with it. And you may think that little is done but time and time again when the staff are being told this, we also tell everyone time and time again that not all moderating is done in public and there are plenty of warning points etc that are given behind the scenes.

And didn't I just write in the post above yours to keep it pleasant in here?

We also have jobs and lives outside of this forum and Marcel may possibly be busy and not had the chance to have read your message. Again, like we tell people, if you want to contact the Admin, then use the Contact Us form.

Now, let's draw a line under this and get back on topic
 
kelack said:
You weren't called an idiot at all. If you were called an idiot we would have deleted it and dealt with it. And you may think that little is done but time and time again when the staff are being told this, we also tell everyone time and time again that not all moderating is done in public and there are plenty of warning points etc that are given behind the scenes.

And didn't I just write in the post above yours to keep it pleasant in here?

We also have jobs and lives outside of this forum and Marcel may possibly be busy and not had the chance to have read your message. Again, like we tell people, if you want to contact the Admin, then use the Contact Us form.

Now, let's draw a line under this and get back on topic
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It' looks to me like I am being called an idiot and it is LIKED by a moderator.Same people as before.Here it is. post #13 http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/dataco-rules-and-this-forum.568413/ That is poor moderation no way should a moderator be liking a post that is rude and insulting.
 
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Nope. Not at all. The words were stop making yourself look like one. Not you are one. I really can't see how this is rude and insulting. Not as rude and as insulting as you saying we are poor moderators. I'd better tell the Admin to dock our pay this month.

But as it offends you so much and you have asked so nicely, I will personally moderate it right this minute for you.
 
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Actually you were told to stop making yourself look like an idiot, which is an entirely different thing and would generally indicate that obviously you are not, or did when I when I went to school. If you aren't prepared to take the advice given by the experienced sports photographers on this forum, then why bother asking the question in the first place, it is a pointless exercise that appears to have trollish intent - please note that use of 'appears', it means I am not calling you a troll, it means I am saying your posting could be taken that way given your reaction to the answers you didn't want. As you have pointed out, you have reported it to Marcel, forum owner, and I am sure he will take any steps he feels are appropriate, perhaps by refunding your joining fee.

Edit: cross posted with Kelly.
 
shapeshifter said:
It's a very poorly moderated forum.I was called an idiot on one post and that was backed up by a moderator liking it. Same people time and time again.I have complained to Marcel the administrator but very little seems to be done.
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Thats because you "appear" to be trolling and looking for an argument with just about every single post you make in here, you need to buy a new bridge.
 
I "appear" to look like a sports photographer, although whether I am is definitely open to question lol.

In a competitive industry you've got to expect people to be guarded when you're first starting out until they know you or your work.

In my proper job we HAVE to be able to rely on people, and although it's not a competitive industry, we are still very careful around new people as my industry is inundated with wannabes and Walter Mitty types.

Now I'm in NO way saying that anyone is in here, but they are out there in most industry.

In my job I turn up to help people in time of need, I regualry get called all the names under the sun and have been threatened with all sorts and assaulted, spat at etc etc.

Just laugh it off, if someone's written something that you dislike then ignore it, or take the advice, or clarify if it came across wrongly, most of us aren't professional writers........or thinkers for that matter lol.

Take it from me, life can be very very short (I have examples!!).

I've had nothing but helpful advice on here both in print and a few phonecalls, but I accept that there's probably a few who think......oh not another bloody newbie question on here ;0)
 
I happen to think that the moderators we have now on this forum are the best mix that we could have, they are the most level headed and fair bunch that i have had the pleasure to work with. I also think that the mods do the very best job that they can. I am a member of a lot of forums, i can show you a lot of poor moderating on those.
 
I happen to think that my decision to submit to Demotix was ok at the time. Everything goes up to Corbis and a payment came through today for £116 for one image I took last year for a book cover, so it's not that bad. 50% fee is still a kick in the stones but If I had dealt with the media direct, that sale wouldn't have happened.

I'm not really surprised by the reaction to my thread. I'm not going to make excuses for my approach to the path to Professional Photography as in the light of other information, I happen to think I'm doing alright. I don't tend to ask anyone for information on anything, but the sports route tends to have no entry point and now I know why.

I'm with a smaller agency now and we get on just fine. I just wanted a wee insight into the 'real' world, and I'm pretty sure that's been answered by a few. The cat claw comments are just what I've come to expect across the board. I've been elbowed in the face within groups of togs at events, and had my bag zipped open by other togs so that my gear fell out just so they could get in front of me. Togs stand in the line of sight all the time and it's just a case of thinking that everyone is out for themselves and you'll never have friends or can trust anyone.

Photographers etiquette is non existent in the field and if you as much as sniff of a newbie you will get burned. I don't bother anyone when I'm out, I don't even talk to other togs when I'm out gathering news pics.

I may not be a staffer, or a full time freelancer, but I'm trying my best to fit into an industry that keeps pushing me away. People at the top of the ladder shouldn't be worried about people at the bottom, however, it's almost like some people would rather that the ladder didn't exist.

It's a fact that with the increased popularity of photography and the ease of access of DSLR's and lenses and forums like POTN to help folk it's going to impact on working pros at one point, however, not everyone will make it. Loads give up, but I won't be one of them.
 
Sporty_Tog said:
I happen to think that my decision to submit to Demotix was ok at the time. Everything goes up to Corbis and a payment came through today for £116 for one image I took last year for a book cover, so it's not that bad. 50% fee is still a kick in the stones but If I had dealt with the media direct, that sale wouldn't have happened.
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Sorry to come back to the thread but the above absolutely underlines the point I've been making.

Whilst you may well be chuffed about getting your photo on the cover of a book, the simple fact is that you've been rather badly mugged by your agency.

For a UK edition only paperback with a print run of 10,000 ( usually the lowest commercially available run) should be getting in the region of £500-1000 depending on the subject matter. If the shot is a rarity, that'll be an awful lot more.

If you don't care about what you earn, neither will the agency. Corbis & Demotix sell their shots cheaply so that they make, irrespective of quality.

It then becomes a vicious, circular race to the bottom with no one winning.

At the very least, learn the value of your work.
 
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