Documentary photography

Pookeyhead said:
Warning to mods... this post contains LOGIC


;)


I think we getting too bogged down into Documentary. I think somewhere for longer term projects is probably a good idea though, as they tend to be big, need to be regularly updated perhaps, and can become somewhere that work can be developed over time.

The thing is... we have one really though... Projects and Themes. The problem is... no one who is interested in seeing documentary or long term projects thinks of looking in there as it is literally just full of 52s.

The problem with the way forums are set up, is that they are set up in a very literal, camera club type way... it has a person in it... it goes in People & Portraits... it has a car in it... Transport... it has a bird in it... Wildlife... etc. The problem then is... lets say for argument's sake, someone did a brilliant documentary or long term study of people who restore classic cars... where does it go? Transport? People? Projects and Themes? It can't go everywhere.... but just because it may have some cars in it, doesn't mean the crowd who currently read transport will appreciate it, and because it wasn't really about cars, those that would have appreciated seeing it, probably never did.

A solution would be to just rename the current Projects and Themes to "365s, 52s etc".. because that's all that's in there.... literally... there is nothing else in there. Then create a new one called Projects and Themes. Effectively, you've actually created a new forum for 365s and 52s, and removed everything from Projects and Themes into the new, now correctly named forum, leaving projects and themes empty for projects and themes. Then from then on, if anyone posts a 52 thread in it, mods can move it to the 52 folder.

Then anyone with an existing project based thread can request to have it moved into Projects and Themes. It won't be long before it fills up if existing threads are moved into it. Anyone who wants to post a new thread, can now put it where it should be... Projects and Themes... without fear of no one reading it because it's full of threads by people who need an excuse to pick up a camera once a week.

It makes perfect sense.

To Mods:
You know what happens when art based, or documentary based work gets mixed up with the camera club stuff... it just breaks out into an argument. This will solve the problem.
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Personally, I think you may have a point David, and it's one I'm happy to get discussed by 'da management'

I must admit, purely from a member rather than staff point of view, that I just don't really 'get' the 52 thing, but I do know it works for a lot of people, and they swear by it... I treat it a bit like religion in that respect... I may not share their views, I may personally question its validity as a whole, but if it works for someone else, then good for them...
 
Pookeyhead said:
Warning to mods... this post contains LOGIC


;)


I think we getting too bogged down into Documentary. I think somewhere for longer term projects is probably a good idea though, as they tend to be big, need to be regularly updated perhaps, and can become somewhere that work can be developed over time.

The problem then is... lets say for argument's sake, someone did a brilliant documentary or long term study of people who restore classic cars... where does it go? Transport? People? Projects and Themes? It can't go everywhere.... but just because it may have some cars in it, doesn't mean the crowd who currently read transport will appreciate it, and because it wasn't really about cars, those that would have appreciated seeing it, probably never did.

It makes perfect sense.

To Mods:
You know what happens when art based, or documentary based work gets mixed up with the camera club stuff... it just breaks out into an argument. This will solve the problem.
Click to expand...


Good idea !
 
Thank you David, you've made my point much more clearly than I was trying to do.
 
Well - I've flagged David's suggestion in the staff room - can I call for a little help here?

Could we compile a list of existing on-going threads that would be candidates for a "projects & themes" section of this nature?

it's really difficult to judge if there would be sufficient threads to keep an area active, simply because they ARE currently scattered all over the place - plus, to be honest, i'm sure that some people may be quite happy with the current location of their threads...
 
I've just had a trawl through the projects and themes - and basically, apart from the sticky threads, there's one solitary thread on the first page that ISN'T a 52 thread.

What MAY be an idea, is to have a "MANDATORY PREFIX" for posting in that area - and add "DOCUMENTARY" "THEMED" and "PROJECT" to the existing daily,weekly and monthly prefixes. Then, if you want to just see "documentary" threads you can use the "thread display options" tag at the bottom of the page to filter out just the type you want to see...

Of course, it does mean someone (probably read "silly bugger over here who suggested it") would have to go though all the existing threads and add a prefix to them all...
 
I currently have three on-going themes that I'd love to be able to put in a section such as this and add to over time.
 
I love doing documentary projects,it does seem a bit of an dying art with most of the outlet for it in the pasts now be taken up by lifestyle stuff :(
 
@TheBigYin
Mark, I have my 100 strangers project in there that is current and ongoing. It's probably on page 2 by sheer weight of 52's.

I also know that @posiview has a minimal project. @Dark Knight has a horizontal project and @susiejb has a hands project to name a few which are current.
 
I'm glad you posted that Iain as I didn't even know that Andy @posiview had a project going .... I'm really glad I've found it, they can tend to get lost among all the posts.

Do they have pinned topics on here, maybe it could just be a pinned section in Projects and Themes so it stays at the top. I must admit that personally I do find that section a really pleasant one and it would be nice to stay there.
 
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blakester said:
@TheBigYin
Mark, I have my 100 strangers project in there that is current and ongoing. It's probably on page 2 by sheer weight of 52's.

I also know that @posiview has a minimal project. @Dark Knight has a horizontal project and @susiejb has a hands project to name a few which are current.
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Top project with very high quality images. This is exactly why a Projects thread is required. The 52 needs its own thread.
 
blakester said:
@TheBigYin
Mark, I have my 100 strangers project in there that is current and ongoing. It's probably on page 2 by sheer weight of 52's.

I also know that @posiview has a minimal project. @Dark Knight has a horizontal project and @susiejb has a hands project to name a few which are current.
Click to expand...

susiejb said:
I'm glad you posted that Iain as I didn't even know that Andy @posiview had a project going .... I'm really glad I've found it, they can tend to get lost among all the posts.

Do they have pinned topics on here, maybe it could just be a pinned section in Projects and Themes so it stays at the top. I must admit that personally I do find that section a really pleasant one and it would be nice to stay there.
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Thanks for the mention Iain :)

Obviously my project isn't documentary, IMO.

In actual fact, I've driven past an allotment near me for years and I'd live to get in there and make a documentary of the gardeners.....just a bit :oops: :$

Cheers.
 
TheBigYin said:
Well - I've flagged David's suggestion in the staff room - can I call for a little help here?

Could we compile a list of existing on-going threads that would be candidates for a "projects & themes" section of this nature?

it's really difficult to judge if there would be sufficient threads to keep an area active, simply because they ARE currently scattered all over the place - plus, to be honest, i'm sure that some people may be quite happy with the current location of their threads...
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Just had a quick trawl through.

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/going-home.474714/

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/ghosts-in-the-archive.540732/#post-6248841

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/branch-first-draft.585760/

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/the-merfolk.585379/


Those are the ones I can remember posting... I'm sure there are more though... just can't recall off the top of my head.
 
posiview said:
Thanks for the mention Iain :)

Obviously my project isn't documentary, IMO.

In actual fact, I've driven past an allotment near me for years and I'd live to get in there and make a documentary of the gardeners.....just a bit :oops: :$

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Not had a look at this Andy but when I'm back on my big screen I'll have a look.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Just had a quick trawl through.

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/going-home.474714/

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/ghosts-in-the-archive.540732/#post-6248841

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/branch-first-draft.585760/

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/the-merfolk.585379/


Those are the ones I can remember posting... I'm sure there are more though... just can't recall off the top of my head.
Click to expand...

Ghosts is the Archive was super. Really enjoyed looking at them again.

Blank_Canvas said:
Not had a look at this Andy but when I'm back on my big screen I'll have a look
Click to expand...

Cheers. Minimal isn't easy, and it shouldn't be.
 
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They're clearly in there.. lost amongst the 52s.

I think we have a case. The problem is that these are usually LONG term projects. No.. the thread won't leap alive overnight, and people who work like this may only post something once every few months... but that's the nature of projects as opposed to 52s that force you to shoot any old crap to a deadline.
 
I'm gradually ploughing through that area and adding in "daily" "Weekly" and "monthly" to all the appropriate threads (plus deleting/moving a couple of stray threads that had been either pulled by the OP or were basically wanting feedback on an external blog etc) which may help in locating the "real" project threads - i.e. if it hasn't a prefix on it, there's a chance it may be one...

It's still under discussion BTW - certainly the people that are involved in the 52's etc want the repeat-challenge things to be moved to a separate forum stream (as they were until a recent (and IMO unsucessful) re-organisation / aggregation of separate bits). Problem is, over the weekend, we seldom get a full complement of Admins in there to actually comment, so it could take a while - but the threads being mentioned in here should be good pointers for what needs to be in a (possibly re-named) projects section.
 
Pookeyhead said:
They're clearly in there.. lost amongst the 52s.
Click to expand...

That's the thing David - the sheer volume and "enforced refresh" nature of the 52's is always going to swamp anything else that it's included with - I think "spinning out" the time related challenges into their own area (as they were up until the last re-shuffle) would be better not only for the 52'ers but for people who are doing a genuine long term project...

I think if i'd have thought about it when I started with the whole "spooky old still life" stuff, I'd have turned it into a "progress / project" kind of thread myself - but as it's years ago now, I only really have the shots for the first "burst" of the work - and I doubt it'd have the same impact or value as something that "grew" as I progressed.
 
TheBigYin said:
If it gets off the ground, Steven, I can always leave a "permanent" redirect marker in the Filmies Section - you know how some of them never emerge out of the darkened rooms ;)
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Well you know how it is in there if you leave you chair empty for a few minutes some one sits in it. Bad form really. :D

Wouldn't worry about it I'll just spam the show us thread :)
 
There was a thread about someone's model railway construction, I think in the 'Out of Focus' section, which may be suitable.
I reckon it's a great idea for a new section.
 
On another point:

Pookeyhead said:
I suppose that may work. I have no idea why there can't be a section for it though. After all, if we can have that ridiculous glamour section that is essentially outdated, insulting and objectifying soft porn that most intelligent people would find objectionable, then I don't see why we can't have a documentary section for more serious series of work, or project based work.
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TheBigYin said:
I must admit, purely from a member rather than staff point of view, that I just don't really 'get' the 52 thing, but I do know it works for a lot of people, and they swear by it... I treat it a bit like religion in that respect... I may not share their views, I may personally question its validity as a whole, but if it works for someone else, then good for them...
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Each to their own. I see no point in knocking someone's choice of subject, be it birds, motorsport, trains or glamour.
 
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kendo1 said:
On another point:




Each to their own. I see no point in knocking someone's choice of subject, be it birds, motorsport or glamour.
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IMO.... actually...

I do see a point. It's harmful. It's objectifying, promotes self-image insecurity in young girls as well as the problems that body image in adolescents can cause such as eating disorders, or even just shyness caused by not being model perfect (we do have children on this forum after all), and such attitudes shown in that forum almost certainly promote a casual sexism that most intelligent people will agree has no place in society. Birds and motorsport are inert... they does no harm. The majority of people want Page 3 banned for these reasons, yet here we are in TP land proudly showing it when the forum is meant to be young person friendly. It's not the nudity that bothers me... it's the objectification.

If it wasn't sexist.... why are there almost no shots of men in there? Those that are (very, very few) are mainly by women, and aren't so loaded in sexual connotation and don't display the blokes as things for the male gaze to own and covet (or even the female gaze). Like this...

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/art-nude-male.565235/

That doesn't really need a nude and glamour forum... that should really just be in People and Portraits.. why tuck that away in a forum full of sleaze?

Yet this....

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/natalia-forrest-christmas-shoot.572258/

That's soft porn, pure and simple. Can you suggest ANY other reason for taking something like image number 4 in that thread? One reason please.. just one.

How can a forum that suspends you for calling someone an idiot allow sexually explicit images of women with the legs spread... pussy on show, looking suggestively toward the camera? LOL. Not only that... but do so in a forum we all know has kids in it. Would you leave your w*** mags lying around on your coffee table when the grand kids come over? No... so why post it in here? You think putting "NSFW" makes it OK?

Time to get rid I think. I'm not referring to nude studies, or anything aesthetically beautiful, or anything thought provoking as they can just live in People & Portraits - this is not about nudity or sex... I'm just on about the objectifying soft porn.. women in lingerie so small that they've avoided showing the genitals by mere millimetres (and in some cases not quite managing it) sticking their asses out for the camera... or women with arched backs on hands and knees on beds.. basically in doggy style positions... spread legs with semi see-thru pants... come on... s**t like that is just objectifying soft porn that sends the wrong message to young girls - namely that life's better for women if they look like models, spread their legs, and smile because men will like them more. It causes huge confidence issues in adolescents. Fact.

This is not about being prudish or offended by sex. I enjoy ****ing as much as the next bloke. It's about attitudes. Attitudes that would probably suggest it's more acceptable to take images of women that definitely suggest they all want you, the viewer to f**k them.... but if I talk about f**king, that's probably a no no. Even that word... f**k.... gets people all upset for some reason.... I mean it's so much more worse than showing images of young girls looking like they're had their ovaries hoovered out huh?

Twisted logic.

It's not the 1970s FFS. What will people say next... there's no harm in 'Love Thy Neighbour' and that Bernard Manning is also still acceptable on pre-watershed TV?



Looks like feminism hasn't really touched these forums... sums up a great deal of amateur photography generally really... it's kind of stuck in 1979 and on repeat.

Rant over.
 
AFAIK young members can't view the Nude and Glamour forum , so really its a problem that only exists in the heads of the 'concerned minority' ("won't someone think of the children... and the kittens" - end of the day I don't shoot N&G, but if people want to I see no harm in it , nor do I see any other member having the right to tell them that they shouldnt.

Back on the point of thid thread I tend to agree that projects and themes is the place for documentary (or other) projects - ) and that the 52s and 365s want coralling into their own subfora ( I thought they were, but if not they should be)
 
I don't see any women complaining.
In some respects I agree with you. I never said I agree with the section, it's a bit marmite in some respects.
It's just, where do you stop, where do you draw the line at censorship.
Next stop is only women in head scarfs are allowed to be shown...

Trains on the other hand... :)

Sex is a part of life, deal with it.
 
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Pookeyhead said:
Yet this....

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/natalia-forrest-christmas-shoot.572258/

That's soft porn, pure and simple. Can you suggest ANY other reason for taking something like image number 4 in that thread? One reason please.. just one.
Click to expand...

It's clearly a documentary series of images about a young lady decorating her Christmas tree, the heels necessary for her to reach the upper branches and to place the star on top and while she's doing that ... er ... she suffers an unfortunate fastener incident which causes her dress to fall off.

No, can't do it. Unless Robin Askwith pops up later in the series, perhaps gurning through the window, and it's reclassified as a retro study based in the 1970s ... :oops: :$
 
Just adding my tuppence for what it's worth. I tried a project in 2012 (I think) to run alongside the 52 mainly to get feedback and critique on my images. Apart from a few people, it just died as it fell into 52 obscurity.

I think project work in photography is massively important to improving, and having a section where people focussing on different projects could get visibility would be well worthwhile. With the 52s, I look at the main pictures thread and go comment on them. Occasionally, I'll drop in on Iain's thread and Susiejb but if there are projects going on outside of that forum it's highly unlikely I'll spot them. David's "Branches" I only found because of this thread and it's brill. I personally learn a lot from these long term endeavours and if "the management" can make them easier to find - especially with a dedicated area - I'd be grateful. Commenting constructively takes a while. Pondering the image(s) and thinking of how to reply can take me 10 minutes. If all the stuff I want to look at (projects interest me more than "people" or "birds") is in the same place, my time can be spent commenting rather than hunting around or getting distracted in Talk Equipment or dreaming in the Classifieds.

I'm not convinced the 52 is best for me, but it's a great way to get to know other members and take part in a photographic journey over time with encouragement and support as well as doing the same for others. If a section were created and devoted to long term projects, that would almost certainly inspire me to actually start one again. Especially looking at the quality of some of the projects I've seen recently.

Like I said, just my tuppence.
 
kendo1 said:
It's just, where do you stop, where do you draw the line at censorship. Next stop is only women in head scarfs are allowed to be shown...
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No one mentioned censorship with regards to nudity. I also posted a link to a fully nude shot of a bloke.. knob on display and everything. This is not about nudity, and if you think it is, you have completely missed the point of my post :)


kendo1 said:
Sex is a part of life, deal with it.
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I do... Are you sure you actually READ my post? This is not about sex, nudity, or censorship.. this is about attitudes, and appropriateness. This is a photography forum that kids often view. Porn has no place here. Porn is all very well... nothing against porn either, but I just find it odd that we have swear filters for words as essentially mild as s h i t yet feel it's OK to post what is essentially soft porn.

Double standards and massively hypocritical.
 
fabs said:
David, as has already been pointed out, the Nudes/Glamour forum is age restricted.
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Sure.... except you can put whatever age you like in the forum application if you wanted to, and most people tell their home computers to remember passwords anyway. I never have to type my password when I enter here, and the page is probably not blocked by parental controls unless manually set, and I bet no one does.

I just wish people would stop calling it Glamour.. there's nothing glamorous about it. It also bugs me that this forum is SOOO strict on what are essentially trivial things, yet seem to have a hugely outdated and relaxed opinion on stuff that should be much more closely moderated.

Clearly we are never going to agree. I've said my bit... perhaps we leave it at that. This is not the thread for it any way either.
 
b*****ks, and I did read your post. Just got bored half way through it.
It's not double standards and definitely not hypocritical.
To be fair, you are right, porn has no place here.

This is a photography forum, and just because YOU don't like a particular form of photography does not mean that other people should be castigated for it.
They have a right to try to be the best they can in their chosen niches and have constructive criticism, just as with any other form of photography.


I doubt very much that the younger members are rushing to look at the latest threads in that section. There are other sites available :)

I can't say I'm a great fan of the section, but there again I'm not a great fan of the transport and birding sections either.
Each to their own...

Edit, BTW, I was typing as you were, David. We'll agree to disagree :)
 
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kendo1 said:
To be fair, you are right, porn has no place here.
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err... Then we agree.




kendo1 said:
David. We'll agree to disagree :)
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But we seem to agree.. LOL

I'm more than happy to let it drop though. Too many people just think you're a prude if yo mention this, whereas there's nothing further from the truth... I have no sexual morals to speak of when single... I'll shag anything. I'm fiercely monogamous when involved though... but I assure you this has nothing to do with prudishness and everything to do with attitudes toward women in our society.

You either get it or you don't I suppose.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Sure.... except you can put whatever age you like in the forum application if you wanted to,
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And kids could nick their dad's nudey mags, not seeing your point.

Pookeyhead said:
I just wish people would stop calling it Glamour.. there's nothing glamorous about it.
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Glamour is the accepted term for the genre of photography. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it any less valid.

Pookeyhead said:
stuff that should be much more closely moderated.
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It is more closely moderated, have a look at the sticky in the 1st thread in that section.

Pookeyhead said:
Clearly we are never going to agree. I've said my bit... perhaps we leave it at that. This is not the thread for it any way either.
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But I notice you made sure you got your point in first. ;)
 
... I'll get the last! :)
 
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