Folling on from the Crufts German Shepherd thread

scottduffy

scottduffy

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36916431

I think all dogs should be healthy and able to complete the tasks they were bred for physically whether they require to do them or not (in the case of fighting dogs). Lets hope some of the bigger dog shows start to welcome this attitude. Can you imagine waiting on some of the St Bernards of today coming to rescue you from a snowy mountain?

So are we in the camp of looking good or being fit for purpose assuming we can't have both.
 
Healthy and with no names repeated on the pedigree certificate would be a good start!
 
You've to realise that a dog was bred to be fit for purpose, if its no longer required for that purpose, as most dogs aren't, then I'm not sure the relevance. On saying that I am pretty disgusted by the state of some noble dog breeds, such as the GSD, as breeders and the kennel club strive for what they consider the perfect looking dog regardless of the detriment to the breed
 
viv1969 said:
And those breeds which have been bred for no working purpose?
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Working breeds or utility breeds were the topic of this conversation but incorporating all breeds I would say that any characteristic that leads to health problems should not be promoted/rewarded.
 
jakeblu said:
You've to realise that a dog was bred to be fit for purpose, if its no longer required for that purpose, as most dogs aren't, then I'm not sure the relevance. On saying that I am pretty disgusted by the state of some noble dog breeds, such as the GSD, as breeders and the kennel club strive for what they consider the perfect looking dog regardless of the detriment to the breed
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I understand your point but how could anyone looking at that pitiful GSD consider it perfect looking? It's madness. I believe lots of dogs today could serve their original purpose but obviously the world has changed since their creation so we don't have the need for bear/deer hunting Great Danes as much but I think some of them could. I just think having seen some English Bulldogs they couldn't hang onto their last breath never mind a bulls nose.
 
The article relates to Bulldogs, which haven't been a working breed for a long long time, and your opening words were "all dogs", so forgive my confusion.

I wonder how minuscule the percentage of dogs which are actually working, is.

I agree that many breeds are obscenely over and inter bred, but I think using an animals ability to carry out the working dog tasks of the past is unrealistic, especially since there are very few carriages left for Dalmations to run alongside. :D
 
There was a whole list of health issues that were cited on the news this morning,
seems they left this one out though
Females tend to have a narrow pelvis, meaning litters often have to be born through C-section. And breathing problems mean the males often have trouble sustaining intercourse.

What annoy's me is that (Controversial) dogs are allowed to be bred perpetuating a whole myriad of health issues and yet docking of tails of working dogs,
was effectively banned. ie you have to prove the the dog will be used for work.
Which of course is not always possible in foresight.

Puppies of these types of (working) dog may be docked by a veterinary surgeon providing this is done within the first five days of life, and that the owner (breeder) can prove that the puppies have been bred to work i.e. they must be able to show the vet either a gun licence or a letter from a land occupier which verifies that the owner's dogs work on his land. The puppies must also be microchipped by a veterinary surgeon. Following both of these procedures, the veterinary surgeon must sign certificates to say that the puppies were both docked and microchipped in accordance with the law.
 
Cobra said:
What annoy's me is that (Controversial) dogs are allowed to be bred perpetuating a whole myriad of health issues and yet docking of tails of working dogs,
was effectively banned. ie you have to prove the the dog will be used for work.
Which of course is not always possible in foresight.

Puppies of these types of (working) dog may be docked by a veterinary surgeon providing this is done within the first five days of life, and that the owner (breeder) can prove that the puppies have been bred to work i.e. they must be able to show the vet either a gun licence or a letter from a land occupier which verifies that the owner's dogs work on his land. The puppies must also be microchipped by a veterinary surgeon. Following both of these procedures, the veterinary surgeon must sign certificates to say that the puppies were both docked and microchipped in accordance with the law.
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Its funny, even that seems to be confused. I'd already been asked by the breeder of my new boy if I'd like him docked. This is what they have to say about docking (the breeder that is)

There is an exemption for puppies destined for working homes but legislation and the confusion surrounding it has made it nearly impossible to find a vet willing to dock a litter.

We are lucky our vet is willing to dock puppies destined for working homes so if you are looking for a working puppy it may be possible to have your puppy legally docked.

To meet the criteria for owning a docked puppy you must have an intention to participate in gundog work with your dog.

The law accepts that not every puppy destined for a working home will mature as suitable for that use or that owners may not proceed into this field.

But at the time of purchase this must be your intention.

Legally docked puppies are accompanied by a docking certificate which identifies the individual dog by microchip number and details when and who the tail was docked by.
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They don't ask for any proof you intend to work your dog. Its simply enough to sign a form saying you intend to
 
stryvya said:
Does either of these Posters know or keep GSD`s ??
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If we don't does it mean we're blind or not able to look at a breed standard? My aunt breeds German Shepherds and I've seen one or two in my time.

Commentator Jessica Holm said: 'When you see [a dog] come into the ring that is so hyperactive the judge couldn't get a hand on the dog, was being handled as such that it could not move properly even if it was capable of doing so, the performance it was put in gave us all concern.

'It did not look like a healthy free-moving dog.'

Clare Balding remarked that she thought Catoria looked lame, and vet Nick Blayney said: 'I was quite frankly appalled that a dog like that could be put up as a good specimen of the breed.

I'm sure the vet has seen one or two also.
 
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Please read ALL of this Article of which I show only a part of, then condemn, if you can. How would you react under these circumstances.??

http://www.gsdleague-workingbranch.com/gsd-best-of-breed-at-crufts-2016/

German Shepherd Dogs are generally shown outside and certainly very few have ever experienced anything like the Crufts Best In Show ring. This young bitch performed extremely well in her breed ring but shortly afterwards in the main arena became overwhelmed by the environment and did not show her true beauty or proper movement, she was not the only dog to react badly to the pressure of the situation. Her internationally renowned handler Craig Rice, who has handled at the top level for many years, explained what took place in the lead up to the group judging and in the main arena….


After a foot perfect performance in the GSD Breed ring, where Tori gained Best of Breed in a high quality entry that included 2 VA rated Dogs, we were taken to do the KC appointed Vet Check. The Vet stated that there was absolutely no possible reason that he could not pass Tori as she showed no signs of bad health and her movement was not impaired in any way. This test included movement of the dog.


After a long wait of over 3 hours, which includes numerous forced photo shoots in the Crufts Best of Breed collection ring, we were finally abruptly told we would be entering the main Arena. This is a situation that no owner, trainer or handler can prepare for. A packed auditorium with hot lights, music, loud speakers and constant cheers and clapping is not an everyday occurrence for any dog. Unfortunately, after a further wait whilst inside the Arena, Tori had become quite agitated. I had tried to calm her by allowing her move around a little but was repeatedly told that I must not let the dog move at all. By the time we were judged Tori was in a high level of distress and was struggling to cope with the situation, which seemed to worsen after the judges rough handling, whilst checking the teeth, of a clearly stressed dog. Tori’s uncharacteristic erratic behaviour has clearly given a bad impression of what I consider a GSD of the highest standard in both construction and health test results.

But the OP was talking about the English Bulldog for which has a serious problem.
 
I fully respect that the dog would have had a long and testing day and it's certainly not the dogs fault that it was bred like it was. My point is that this dog is not a good example of the breed as stated by vets, commentators, RSPCA and many many others but because it's won BOB there will be many wanting to breed with/from it which just magnifies the problems. It's outrageous. The Kennel Club are even talking about banning the whole of the breed from showing if it doesn't improve. The Bulldog and the Pekingese that was mentioned in the article are just more examples of dog breeds being ruined for show.
 
stryvya said:
Does either of these Posters know or keep GSD`s ??
Click to expand...
I've had two GSD's the last one 20 years ago, it was from good bitch and mate and although they weren't KC registered they both had excellent Hip scores as did he. I have to say, I had not followed the breed for many years but was shocked to see the GSD that won best of breed at crufts. That back is not natural on a GSD and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise.
 
scottduffy said:
I fully respect that the dog would have had a long and testing day and it's certainly not the dogs fault that it was bred like it was. My point is that this dog is not a good example of the breed as stated by vets, commentators, RSPCA and many many others but because it's won BOB there will be many wanting to breed with/from it which just magnifies the problems. It's outrageous. The Kennel Club are even talking about banning the whole of the breed from showing if it doesn't improve. The Bulldog and the Pekingese that was mentioned in the article are just more examples of dog breeds being ruined for show.
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Being a bitch she can only have a maximum of 4 litters registered with the KC
I have always believed there should be a similar restriction on stud dogs
 
stryvya said:
Does either of these Posters know or keep GSD`s ??
Click to expand...
My own dog died at the beginning of this year, and this is the first time that I haven't had a GSD during the last 45 years, and I also used to train them, both for Obedience and Working Trials competitions, and many years ago I trained them for a police force too - so yes, I do know something about them and I'm sure that other posters do too.

Before any apologists for the breeders and show judges try to rationalise the damage that has been done to the breed, they should be aware that the GSD was originally a sheep guarding dog - and to do it's job it had to run, at a slow gait, in a large circle around a flock of sheep for hours at a time, to guard the flock against predators such as wolves. And it had to have the speed, weight and temperament to engage a pack of wolves when necessary. Later, they were used as military, police and security dogs and again they had to be fit, and to have the temperament to cope.

The successful show GSD's of today tend to be nervous wrecks that can barely walk properly, let alone run.

As for the Bulldog, this is an extreme example of a breed that has been wrecked by breeders and the show ring, and the reason why they can't breathe, and can't give birth naturally, is all down with the breeder's attempts to destroy the natural shape of their face and to distort the shape of their bodies.
Going on to other breeds, Cocker Spaniels are supposed to be gundogs, the show variety tend to be undersized nervous wrecks that become hysterical in stressful situations. Poodles were designed for use as water retrieving dogs, many of them today have a shiver fit if they get slightly damp, and a lot of the owners of these small breeds don't let them get wet, and some of them don't even allow their dainty little paws to touch the ground...
 
boyfalldown said:
They don't ask for any proof you intend to work your dog. Its simply enough to sign a form saying you intend to
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It wouldn't be a N. Ireland sourced dog by any chance?
As that's pretty much what it says on their Gov. web site.
But yes I agree it still confused,
I suppose I can see why the "restricted ban" was introduced, the vets were loosing a fortune because breeders were doing it their selves,
now of course they have to jump through a few hoops to get it done ;)
And I still say a Rottie or Dobie with a tail looks out of place.
Would "guarding my stash" be classed as working I wonder ? :D
 
Cobra said:
It wouldn't be a N. Ireland sourced dog by any chance?
As that's pretty much what it says on their Gov. web site.
But yes I agree it still confused,
I suppose I can see why the "restricted ban" was introduced, the vets were loosing a fortune because breeders were doing it their selves,
now of course they have to jump through a few hoops to get it done ;)
And I still say a Rottie or Dobie with a tail looks out of place.
Would "guarding my stash" be classed as working I wonder ? :D
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No he's coming from a breeder in Leicestershire (which is more onerous then the dark side of the moon)
 
If a supposed working dog must be docked within five days of birth, wouldn't it be the breeder who must provide such "proof", since they are, at that time, the owner?
 
viv1969 said:
If a supposed working dog must be docked within five days of birth, wouldn't it be the breeder who must provide such "proof", since they are, at that time, the owner?
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Correct, as the owner it is the breeder that has to provide the proof that the pups were bred for working purposes, finding a vet to dock them could be more of a problem

boyfalldown said:
No he's coming from a breeder in Leicestershire (which is more onerous then the dark side of the moon)
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My GSP came from Leicestershire. nightmare dog, serious aggression problems due to brain inbalance, when he had fits it wasn't collapse it was kill the nearest
living thing
 
Gremlin said:
My GSP came from Leicestershire. nightmare dog, serious aggression problems due to brain inbalance, when he had fits it wasn't collapse it was kill the nearest
living thing
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I know things go wrong, but it'll have taken 2 years to find the right litter from the right breeder. Fingers crossed I'll have a healthy well balanced dog
 
boyfalldown said:
I know things go wrong, but it'll have taken 2 years to find the right litter from the right breeder. Fingers crossed I'll have a healthy well balanced dog
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So did the Guy that bought my boy, came to me as a rescue foster at a year old and stayed for 3 years until things got really bad
Mother was from a top kennel, father got BoB at Crufts, he cost a small fortune, I have his pedigree and KC reg, lots of same
dogs on both sides, far too inbred.
Shame really I was gun training him, he was a natural, but neither vets nor a very good behaviourist could do much
 
Gremlin said:
So did the Guy that bought my boy, came to me as a rescue foster at a year old and stayed for 3 years until things got really bad
Mother was from a top kennel, father got BoB at Crufts, he cost a small fortune, I have his pedigree and KC reg, lots of same
dogs on both sides, far too inbred.
Shame really I was gun training him, he was a natural, but neither vets nor a very good behaviourist could do much
Click to expand...

Fortunately one of the things I like about this litter is Dads a Hungarian import and mums an American. It'll be the first litter they've had together and there is practically 0 inbreeding. The coefficient is something silly like 0.01% which is silly low for a pedigree
 
stryvya said:
After a long wait of over 3 hours, which includes numerous forced photo shoots in the Crufts Best of Breed collection ring, we were finally abruptly told we would be entering the main Arena. This is a situation that no owner, trainer or handler can prepare for. A packed auditorium with hot lights, music, loud speakers and constant cheers and clapping is not an everyday occurrence for any dog. Unfortunately, after a further wait whilst inside the Arena, Tori had become quite agitated. I had tried to calm her by allowing her move around a little but was repeatedly told that I must not let the dog move at all. By the time we were judged Tori was in a high level of distress and was struggling to cope with the situation, which seemed to worsen after the judges rough handling, whilst checking the teeth, of a clearly stressed dog. Tori’s uncharacteristic erratic behaviour has clearly given a bad impression of what I consider a GSD of the highest standard in both construction and health test results.
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This was quoted in the other thread.

I struggle to understand how anyone can see this as a defense.
 
stryvya said:
as a defence for what?
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breeding a dog with a bent back and restricted rear legs? (and, if others are to be believed, a very non GSD temperament) oh, and then allowing (even expecting) that look to be accentuated by the way it is handled as if it is a good thing.
giving a dog 1st place when it is clearly a distortion of what the dog should look like (looking at history and even the kennel club rules)
giving a dog 1st place when it clearly wasn't performing well on the day? (for whatever reason) How does that work? the GSD leagues "excuse" is that the dog could not cope with the stress so was not at it's best. But it still got the prize? That is a bit like Hamilton having a hissey fit at Rosberg and taking them both off, only to be awarded the win because he would have one otherwise.

from the tone of your post I assume this all normal/ok to you?
 
So you are an Armchair Critic, thought so.!!

brman said:
I would love for someone to really explain why the majority of posters in this thread are wrong
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Why not, all of you, go to a Local GSD Regional Show, not a Kennel Club Registered show, and see your "so called" crippled GSD in action??
 
stryvya said:
So you are an Armchair Critic, thought so.!!



Why not, all of you, go to a Local GSD Regional Show, not a Kennel Club Registered show, and see your "so called" crippled GSD in action??
Click to expand...
By that I take it you mean I have no experience of a "real" GSD or seen one at a show?
You are wrong.
still, I have had my say and you don't appear to want to respond to the points I (or anyone else) made so I'll bow out of this thread now before things get too personal.
 
But all the observations above on the GSD Breed are based on the Crufts Footage which is not a fair assumption to make, as the poor Dog was not allowed to be settled by the Show Officials.
I bet they were not taken to task for their handling of the situation??

Go and see for yourself instead of making rash judgements, I dare you.
 
It's easy to see that the dog in question, Cruaghaire Catoria, is horribly slope backed, whether in show stance or not.
It's sad to see the deformities which have become common place within this and other breeds. :(
And yes, I speak as an experienced GSD owner.
 
But all the observations above on the GSD Breed are based on the Crufts Footage which is not a fair assumption to make, as the poor Dog was not allowed to be settled by the Show Officials.
I bet they were not taken to task for their handling of the situation??

Go and see for yourself instead of making rash judgements, I dare you.
 
Are you addressing me?
My comment wasn't based either on the video footage or still images from Crufts, or indeed the result. It is based on personal experience of the breed.
There are many images available online of that particular dog, both in show pose and not, and I'm sorry if it offends your sensibilities, but she is, to all intents and purposes, deformed. Go ahead and look, I dare you.
I'm not making rash judgements, save for the fact that Crufts has become nothing more than an exercise in owner vanity, and nothing to do with proper breeding / showing.
 
stryvya said:
Why not, all of you, go to a Local GSD Regional Show, not a Kennel Club Registered show, and see your "so called" crippled GSD in action??
Click to expand...


Because the dog in Question is too far away to come to a show local to me.
As I stated on the other thread I no longer go anywhere near the GSD ring at shows, last time I did there were some
gorgeous free moving straight backed dogs bred in Cornwall that didn't even get placed, and before you asked yes I do have
many years experience with the breed and to be honest I am so appalled at the way they are going now, both in looks and temperament
that I doubt I'd have another if I did it would be an import czech GSD
 
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