Multi Flash set up for birds

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nc_killie

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John
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Can anyone recommend cheap flashes for multi flash set up for birds - cheap, HSS, fast recycling time?? I have a Canon 430EXii and am happy to use slaves or wired configuration

Thanks in advance

John (originally posted in Equipment but no response)
 
I just bought a newer 660 iii for family use as I sold the Nikon sb700 due to not using it.
However the newer was just shy of £40 and is hss, I intend to use it as a fill for some bird shots, I've seen folk use flash and it doesn't seem to bother them in the slightest.
 
I've done ok with regular flashguns and remotes without HSS - but perched subjects, rather than in-flight. Even the most skittish of wild birds (eg. jays) don't seem to notice flash.
 
Thanks for the responses. I have useda single flash but it does not always give a realistic look (IMHO). Birds do not appear to be pased when I hve used flash, if they were I would stop.
 
Make sure you use a diffuser to cut out the double eye light
 
Assuming you mount your flash on top of your camera shoe mount or on the side of the camera, you'll probably get the "steel eye" which is most likely unavoidable but this can be easily removed in post.

If you use it for fill in flash, use Flash Exposure Compensation (FEC) this can be used with HSS mode.

A couple of ways to use multiple flashes, if you use the latest Radio transmission i.e. Canon 600EX or ST-E3-RT, it can control multiple flashes and you can set them in groups where you can fully control the power and in E-TTL mode. This can be expensive and Yongnuo does provide a good value for money solution, look it up Yongnuo 600EX (they just announced YN-600EX-II recently) and their YN-E3-RT can be use in conjunction with Canon 600EX, EX-II or 430 EX-III.

Other cheaper alternative is to use slave mode however, you can only use this in Manual mode where you need to set them up and no adjustment can be made in your "hide". This can be countered by ISO, shutter speed and aperture control albeit not having the flexibility of the former.

YMMV
 
If your thinking of a specific set up for birds, say in your garden, you may find it cheaper to buy some old fashioned flashguns and 602 or 603 triggers.
You can get sunpak or metz for reasonable money, (compared to the modern ones) possibly mains powered and they'll keep up with a motor drive. Two or three of these, one head on and one 45degrees each side (you need to experiment) will give shadowless results and some tissue over the heads will soften the light nicely. You don't need expensive TTL guns and the birds aren't in the least disturbed by flash. The man (Eric Hoskins) used this sort of setup most of the time. HTH's
 
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Silver pixels said:
and the birds aren't in the least disturbed by flash. The man (Eric Hoskins) used this sort of setup most of the time. HTH's
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No disrespect here John,but just because Eric Hoskins did it does not mean the birds were not affected,his work was years ago,the flash was mainly for the Barn owls ,Little owls in order to get motion shots,he had no option then either,i also know he allowed a farmer to shoot a adult sparrowhawk after he had shown him the nest sight,he went along with that quite happily and got his shot before the farmer did what he said he would do.....personaly i would not use flash on birds ,but thats just me,just no need for it .
I have heard arguments from both sides both with valid points ,but to me its just not natural .i also turned down a pro wildlife photographer the oportunity at my little owl sight to use a flash set up ,as said i just dont agree with it .
 
Fair enough Den. We'll agree to disagree. On reflection, I've added this edit.;

I've photographed birds over many years, going back to the days of 64 asa stuff, when, in this country, flash was necessary most of the time. In recent times, circumstances have meant that i had to make a set up in my garden, which unfortunately, is facing into the sun. My main criteria with a bird shot is that if there isn't a highlight in the eye, it goes in the bin!
This means the use of "fill" flash.

I've used this strategy for a few years and the same birds consistently return to the perches i set up and stay on the perches even when not feeding, totally ignoring not only the flash, but also the noise of the shutter. This leads me to the (Logical to me) conclusion that it doesn't distress them in any way.
What behaviour / "evidence" do you see that suggest it does?

Regards
 
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Silver pixels said:
What behaviour / "evidence" do you see that suggest it does?
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I have no evidence as i have never used flash for photographing birds...i personaly would rather err on the edge of caution for the sake of a photograph and not try it.
As for the small garden birds who forage for food during the day it may not be as big of a issue,again i dont know because i have not tried it and i wont its just my take on it and i will continue to try and capture shots the natural way ,as i said in my post i have seen arguments and valid points on both sides ,but for the sake of a picture i will not and never will use flash on any bird especialy owls for the sake of a picture ,its just a No No for me...
 
Does a schedule 1 licence allow you to use flash on birds at their nest site? Genuine question.

Also is there any full time wildlife togs on here who needs to get a certain image to feed their families- not saying its right but its one reason i was told in the past. Anyone?


I have been in hides where birds were startled by flash and also some weren't. So can anyone answer the above questions?
 
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Mark,

I do not believe that the licence is thatspecific about the technology, but is more about disturbing (or not ) the animals involved. Generally to get a licence to photograph at the nest site you have to show god intentabout not distrubing the bird.

Professionalism has no role in the granting of a licence, although I am sure that it is easier for some than others! If two people apply and the only difference is that one 'needs it' to feed his family it should be irrelevant.

There have been papers published about the intensity of light, comparing it to other things (lightening) and the damage to eyes.

In my eyes, no photograph is worth endangering / harming any animal.

My 2p
 
@nc killie, would you or anyother person on here use flash at or near a nest site of a schedule 1 bird? Im asking because i know several pro togs who would never do it but they do for ither birds. So whats the difference? It either disturbs them or it doesnt in my book.
 
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"@markyboy.1967@nc killie, would you or anyother person on here use flash at or near a nest site of a schedule 1 bird? Im asking because i know several pro togs who would never do it but they do for ither birds. So whats the difference? It either disturbs them or it doesnt in my book."

The difference is level of potential risk. Flash a bird or any other living thing whilst perching,flying or feeding etc and it can choose not to come back. Flash a bird at the nest and if it chooses not to come back then the result may be a nestful of dead youngsters-I say maybe because the other parent may be able to successfully raise the youngsters.

With or without flash nest photography is an art which requires considerable patience and adherence to a set of rules which go way beyond wether flash is used or not. The schedule one licence requires that you do not disturb the subject . Disturbance it self is open to interpretation and with the use of flash may not be about the "flash" itself but about the level of disturbance caused during the setting up of the equipment to both the subject and the immediate surroundings. Unfortunately it is not species specific and just because this year a wagtail happily accepts flash at the nest does not mean that one just down the road will.

Far more damage is probably done by hordes of photographers chasing rare and very tired migrants for hours on end and those who know little or nothing about the nature of the subject they are attempting to photograph than has ever been done by the use of flash by an experienced nature photographer. However with todays equipment there are very few occasions when flash is absolutely necessary but the key is being able to spot the signs of potential stress in any wildlife situation and Walk away.

Regen
 
Hi all,
Clearly, a lot of differing opinions and i've no doubt this has been discussed in great depth before. Thanks to all for the interesting contributions. It's a case of "each to their own" on this i think.
PS .... You may find, "Split Second" interesting, one of a series of books by a guy called Stephen Dalton, who specialises in high speed photography. Looking back now at all the equipment necessary is ubelievable.
Cheers
 
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@Regan, you hit the nail on the head with " potential risk", which is exactly that- a risk. Its one i choose not to make and never had the need to.
You are very correct about hoards if togs chasing down a rare bird causing it stress as its something i have saw in the past and you have made some decent poibts about setting up flashes.


@Silver pixels- why not set your perch differently if you dont like facing the sun or do sone backlit shots- just showing there is always alternative answers to gaining a shot.

Still not had a straight answer about using flash on a scgedule 1 bird near its nest by those who want to use flash at other tines.
 
markyboy.1967 said:
@nc killie, would you or anyother person on here use flash at or near a nest site of a schedule 1 bird? Im asking because i know several pro togs who would never do it but they do for ither birds. So whats the difference? It either disturbs them or it doesnt in my book.
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I rarely do nest photography due to the risk of disturbance, andpotential risk to the birds - as I said earlier, no photograph is worth endangering a bird/ egg / nest.
From a purely technical perspective, flash photography at a nest woudl IMHO cause significant disturbance to get a decent photograph - most nests are secluded and it would take time(at least for me) to get the lighting correct, thus I would not be comfortable.
I do not believe that the application to photograph asks specifically about whether you intend to use flash,you are however you have to describe what you want to do,why and how. I believe that would require you to state you were going to use flash(if that is what you intended).

On a tangent, the only time Ihave photoraphed a schedule 1 bird on the nest was in the US (different laws) and it was from a helicopter. A respected conservation group was monitoring eagle nests from a helicopter! I have to admit that manyof the birds seemed totally unfazed by a helicopter, one of lasting memories is flying parallel to a golden eagle and it was unconcerned! All of the birds seen did not appear to be unduly concernedby teh helicopter. I am not advocating use of such but the photo below was taken from a helicopter and teh eagle just gave a look over its shoulder and carriedon as before. Beautiful birds.
The welfare of the bird always comes first!!

Golden Eagle and Chick by nc_killie, on Flickr
 
I shoudl also add that it does not matter to me whether it is a schedule 1 bird or not, same rule applies!
 
Im using the schudule 1 as an example as i have said i know pros who use flash for some birds but wont do it for schedule 1 birds so my question was - whats the difference? It was noted about set up of flash etc but to me thats a cop out as if done carefully there can be little or impact on the set up if you know the subjects movements and habits and some of the pros i know are very skilled, so to me these pros dont do it for another reason.
 
Suggestions:
1. They know it would not get approved
2. They are not willing to suffer the bad press if it became known - look at the divergant opinions on this thread
3. To get good flash coverage on teh nest would, for most nests, require (unacceptable?) disturbance

Like most things in life I think you may be looking for a black / white answer when reality is a shade of grey. Why don't you ask some of these people you mention - sounds p***y but not meant as such!
 
John

Glenn Bartley uses flash a lot with his bird shots + the Better Beamer ... he gives some advice on his web site

It is something that I have started to do to correct for shadows in strong light - I have just started off by using the Nikon SB 800

I have not found that it disturbed the birds, (out here in S Africa anyway)
 
Here's 2 shots from this week ... first few shots - so early days

Nikon 300mm f2.8 + 1,4TC on a tripod + Nikon SB 800
f9 .......... one at 1/250th and the other at 1/160th
I'm experimenting with different setting EV values, speeds
I also have the R1C1 set up, (in no way "cheap") with me which I am using for insects/flowers

These are very small birds

250.jpg

16010.jpg
 
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BillN_33 said:
John

Glenn Bartley uses flash a lot with his bird shots + the Better Beamer ... he gives some advice on his web site

It is something that I have started to do to correct for shadows in strong light - I have just started off by using the Nikon SB 800

I have not found that it disturbed the birds, (out here in S Africa anyway)
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Thanks Bill. It was actually Glen Bartley photos that got me thinkingabout multi flash in the garden. I have used a fill in flash withBetter beamer and found that birds do not appear to be impacted by it.

Now to save up to go on one of his trips,I think his photos are stunning.

Thanks
 
nc_killie said:
Thanks Bill. It was actually Glen Bartley photos that got me thinkingabout multi flash in the garden. I have used a fill in flash withBetter beamer and found that birds do not appear to be impacted by it.

Now to save up to go on one of his trips,I think his photos are stunning.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I agree - I have followed Glen for a few years and he did post on here very occasionally
 
nc_killie said:
Thanks Bill. It was actually Glen Bartley photos that got me thinkingabout multi flash in the garden. I have used a fill in flash withBetter beamer and found that birds do not appear to be impacted by it.

Now to save up to go on one of his trips,I think his photos are stunning.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I agree - I have followed Glen for a few years and he did post on here very occasionally
 
"Still not had a straight answer about using flash on a scgedule 1 bird near its nest by those who want to use flash at other tines."

When you apply for a schedule 1 licence to CCW as was then they require a great deal of information before it is granted. This not only includes how, when and why you want to "disturb" this particular bird but also where and wether you have the land owners permission. Having to jump thro so many hoops to prove you have the necessary experience would lead most applicants to the conclusion that flash will not be permitted so there is little point in following up on a site that requires it- simply find a site that does not . Apart from owls at night I would not bother to put in an application to use flash because I am sure it would be turned down.

They do go into a lot of detail and when I wanted to photograph red kites at the nest I was asked to run it past the local kite expert for approval first and this entailed putting the hide in position before the start of the season on the assumption that the bird would use the same nest before a licence was granted.

They also require a report of the nest outcome - failure to do so means no more licences!

As equipment and technology improves I find it difficult to think of a schedule 1 bird where the use of flash would be absolutely necessary - apart from owls.

With regard to other species I would be quite happy to use flash at the nest if necessary based on 60 years experience coupled with the ability to walk away if necessary. However with todays equipment and carefully chosen sites it should soon be unnecessary for any species in the uk apart from owls at night and birds like swallows which invariably nest in barns.


" It was noted about set up of flash etc but to me thats a cop out as if done carefully there can be little or impact on the set up if you know the subjects movements and habits and some of the pros i know are very skilled, so to me these pros dont do it for another reason."

This is a broad sweeping statement which simply is not true. Every nest of every species schedule one or not is different. There are many sites which even a super skilled person could not work without causing disturbance before, during or after photography for many reasons including geographical location, potential disturbance by other people, predation,irreparable damage to vegetation etc.

And the reason is that they would not get a licence to use flash at the nest of a schedule 1 bird -end of

Regen
 
BillN_33 said:
Glenn Bartley uses flash a lot with his bird shots + the Better Beamer ... he gives some advice on his web site
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Glen uses flash to get a better photograph,fine Bill,and fine if thats the way you go about it when you use flash ,but i am with those that dont do it for ethical concerns .
I dont need a image that bad ,plus you always have shadows and highlights in photoshop that can do the same job for you....:)
 
I would never take an image of a bird nesting or even go near a nesting bird ....... in fact I thought many "bird" forums/sites banned images of such
 
den said:
Glen uses flash to get a better photograph,fine Bill,and fine if thats the way you go about it when you use flash ,but i am with those that dont do it for ethical concerns .
I dont need a image that bad ,plus you always have shadows and highlights in photoshop that can do the same job for you....:)
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I only use flash occasionally ...... having started a couple of weeks ago because of the strong light out here
 
BillN_33 said:
I only use flash occasionally ...... having started a couple of weeks ago because of the strong light out here
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I can see why flash would be of some advantage on some ocassions ,and as i have said before ,i have heard and read a lot about the subject of using flash in bird photography ,it will always be a divided subject ,i also know what a simple torch beam can do to a barn owl and a tawny owl ,i have no expert knowledge on the subject but i can tell you they were not happy ,the barn owl just circled around the edge of the light,not normal ,and the tawny allowed me to get closer than i could without one ,these are nocturnal i know ,so a totaly different subject than garden birds,,,i am not saying flash is bad ,i just choose to not for ethical concerns only
 
BillN_33 said:
I only use flash occasionally ...... having started a couple of weeks ago because of the strong light out here
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Bill your not photographing at the correct times. I know the light can be strong for you so why not limit your hours to early morning and evenings like many others in your situation. Flash is the easy option i feel rather than do the legwork and homework on the species your after.
 
@Regan, yeah its a very sweeping statement however its not untrue. Your basing your assumptions and statements on the knowledge you have of some togs. With enough knowledge , skill and equipment then even the most difficult nests can be photographed- whether flash disturbs them then yeah i still believe it does in some circumstances and my reaction is not to use it rather than try and see which bird gets disturbed or annoyed by it but then again i dont knowingly get to close to nests to photograph in them.
 
"@markyboy@Regan, yeah its a very sweeping statement however its not untrue. Your basing your assumptions and statements on the knowledge you have of some togs."

To assume makes an ASS out of U and ME-I most certainly am not -I make no assumptions as my comments are based only upon my own experiences

"@markyboy With enough knowledge , skill and equipment then even the most difficult nests can be photographed-"

Indeed yes and usually to the detriment of the subject but anybody with that mindset probably has the "get the picture at any cost" attitude and may have the equipment but certainly not the knowledge or skill.

"@markyboy but then again i dont knowingly get to close to nests to photograph in them."

So how can you possibly make the above statement?

Markyboy you asked the question "why are professionals not prepared to flash Schedule 1 species but will flash others at the nest? I gave you an answer based upon my own experience which was that when applying for a licence you have to state exactly how you will operate and that if you say you will use flash then I don't believe a licence would be granted.

Good luck with your photography

Regen
 
This is a bit off topic with flash but its a situation i was in a couple of years ago working with a Bird Ringer who had just taken up serious photography after years of just ringing.
The guy knew that i was aware of nearly every nest site within a few miles of a certain stretch of river,we did know each other and he did contact me regarding getting shots ,he had a schedule 1 i didnt ,he knew i was getting shots pretty close, so i told him were i was getting the shots ,i also told him that watching there behaviour and were they go after coming out of the nest and placing a perch was the best spot as not to disturb them ,doing this allowed me to literaly get thousands of shots ,to the point were i ignored a lot of oportunitues and just watched the bird coming and going,the bird ringer was pretty impressed at my set up, but because he had a schedule 1 (i have also since found out that its site specific and he didnt tell me that at the time ,i just presumed he could do what he wanted because of the license) he decided to set up a hide ,with camera on tripod and shoot remotely from behind a tree just 15 ft away from the nest on a bank .I then left him to it until he called and told me the bird was coming down but not visiting the nest much ,i told him that for the last week i could set my watch at the feeding times ,bearing in mind this was at the peak of feeding ,i then went down at every oportunity i had in my spare time ,set up my hide and got shots ,again i got a call asking for the info on the activity etc,as he was not having much luck ,until i went down with him ,watched him set up and then retreat to behind a tree with his remote ,a few hours later no sign of the birds so we both moved ,now i had an idea that his set up was a bit to close and that him being behind the tree was not a good idea ,it just didnt sit right with me in how to get photographs of Kingfishers ,to me he was disturbing the birds ,because to me a few days earlier i was getting shots for fun and the birds were at there peak feeding ,he then decided that my spot was fine as he had seen the shots i got and low and behold ,he got shots ,no remote ,no standing behind a tree ,just sat in a hide level with the river out of sight were he could watch the birds feeding regular and if he got lucky land on the perch i set up ......of which he got with his new camera equipment,now he may like to impress with his schedule 1 but he knew f*** all about Photographing Kingfishers ,he might be able to put his hand in a nest pull out the chicks and ring them,and them put them back ,but he certainly knew how to disturb the birds with his new camera equipment of which i witnessed at first hand .....
 
markyboy.1967 said:
Bill your not photographing at the correct times. I know the light can be strong for you so why not limit your hours to early morning and evenings like many others in your situation. Flash is the easy option i feel rather than do the legwork and homework on the species your after.
Click to expand...

Fair enough ........ I'll get up at 05:30am tomorrow and every day I shoot - and make an appointment with my subjects asking them to get in the correct position ...............really look forward to that



I cannot understand why you are arguing
No-one is suggesting that flash should be used all the time
No-one is suggesting that flash be used to scare birds or photograph nests, or even taking shots of nocturnal birds at night

Read what an expert with a great knowledge of bird photography, bird watching in all conditions has to say – he is also well experienced in post processing – he has a wealth of experience and is a sensible specialist pro – Glenn Bartley


“The importance of flash in your own photography depends a lot upon the environments in which you do most of your shooting. If you live in a sunny and open place where you are able to take advantage of the warm low angle rays of light on a consistent basis then flash will be largely unnecessary. If shooting in “sweet light” is a rare occurrence then learning to use flash is an absolute must. Here are just a few of the benefits of learning how to use flash as a nature photographer:

• Allow you to shoot within the forest

• Extend the shooting day

• Provide a catch light, fill light and punch to images taken in flat light

• Creative lighting opportunities and doing something “different”

• Freeze the action”
 
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Bill im not arguing in any waY, im putting my own point across just like you are. Im not using anyone as back up like you and others are with using Glens name- that means nothing to me and is similar to saying" my dad is bigger than your dad". I say what i see and asked the question because as said many pros wouldnt use flash on schedule 1 birds but then its likely some will. I personallyl dont use flash for my own reason and experiences but you may want to- thats your decision and im not saying your wrong.
 
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BillN_33 said:
Fair enough ........ I'll get up at 05:30am tomorrow and every day I shoot - and make an appointment with my subjects asking them to get in the correct position ...............really look forward to that
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If i do have video showing everyone by getting up at 5.30am ,going to a site were i know the subjects are ,set up a perch ,sit and wait until i get some nice light ,fire away then come home with some decent shots ,without using flash ,i guess i could say i am a expert and no need for flash ,my ethical conscience is clear...i am not trtying to argue here Bill but its something i dont believe is necassary and can quite easily be done without the need for artificial light ,its just my view...Its not ilegal so its a simple personal choice by the individual,i could get a portfolio of little owl shots with flash at night without a problem,..its just not for me ,but on the other hand i have seen some good images were its been done correctly and the outcome is good ,but its not for me .
 
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