Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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nilagin said:
Seems the positioning of some charging points could be proving to be unpopular.
https://amp.theguardian.com/cities/...nts-electric-car-points-pavements-pedestrians
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A new slant - ‘The law of stupid consequences’

Sits with Volvo’s experiment with Natural Gas powered V70 some years ago. In cold weather , refuelling at the only London point (Old Kent Road) took 10x longer than in warm weather. A brave attempt at alternative fuel but not practical in reality.

Long term there will need to be more practicable on-street solutions. Still a long ‘journey’ ahead with new tech.
 
Yup! Reading the whole story on the link, a sensible idea is to put charge points in/on street lights as long as they're street side of the pavement rather than the far side.
 
StewartR said:
Not really. That figure comes from dividing the total loss by the number of cars made, but it doesn't mean that if they made 50% more cars their losses would be 50% greater. In fact their automotive operations delivered a gross margin of around $540m, which is nearly $20,000 per vehicle. You would expect - and more importantly they expect - this number to increase as the sales volume grows.
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It's also ignoring the fact that Tesla, as well as SpaceX, was never designed to make a profit.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
It's also ignoring the fact that Tesla, as well as SpaceX, was never designed to make a profit.
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Tesla should at least be able to break even if it wasn't designed to make a profit. But Tesla is haemorraging money fast. So much so that they could be bankrupt by August. Their production woes aren't getting any better neither. Seems the Model 3 is still having problems and the Y has now been delayed until 2020. On top of all that I have also read of reliability and build issues with current cars.
 
nilagin said:
Tesla should at least be able to break even if it wasn't designed to make a profit. But Tesla is haemorraging money fast. So much so that they could be bankrupt by August. Their production woes aren't getting any better neither. Seems the Model 3 is still having problems and the Y has now been delayed until 2020. On top of all that I have also read of reliability and build issues with current cars.
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And their bankruptcy wouldn't matter, Elon has done what he set out to do.

He's shown what it's possible to do with electric cars and pushed battery and charging technology further ahead than anyone.

And they've shown you can produce reasonably priced electric cars that perform well in the Tesla model 3.

And he's then open sourced everything they've developed and allowed everyone else to use their patents for free.

The goal was always to make electric vehicles more accessible and pave the way for other manufacturers to take it to mass market.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
And their bankruptcy wouldn't matter, Elon has done what he set out to do.

He's shown what it's possible to do with electric cars and pushed battery and charging technology further ahead than anyone.

And they've shown you can produce reasonably priced electric cars that perform well in the Tesla model 3.

And he's then open sourced everything they've developed and allowed everyone else to use their patents for free.

The goal was always to make electric vehicles more accessible and pave the way for other manufacturers to take it to mass market.
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I am sure Tesla's bankruptcy will matter to all the employees, the suppliers of car components and the manufacturing equipment.
Did you miss the bit where I wrote they have been struggling to produce the 3? Their production woes have been so dire Musk has been sleeping in the factory whilst they try to sort it.
 
TBH I'd say they have demonstrated that it's very difficult to make good electric vehicles profitably starting from scratch. If they DO go under it may well tarnish the idea of EVs in the mind of the public and cause considerable upset to present owners - not to mention all the workers & suppliers that Neil mentioned.
 
nilagin said:
Seems it is even worse than I thought at Tesla, lawsuits for non payment to suppliers, employees going unpaid.
https://gizmodo.com/tesla-will-lock-out-contractors-on-monday-unless-employ-1825812405/amp
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Thats a pretty fetid piece of journalism you've linked to though. It reads like somebody was out to do a hatchet job on Tesla: throw enough mud and done will stick.

For example, one of the claims is that "Workers at Tesla plant in New York went months without pay". But read the article to which that links and you'll discover that (1) they are people building a Tesla factory, not people working in a Tesla factory; (2) they are not Tesla emoloyees; (3) Tesla is not responsible for paying them; (4) the non-payment is because the company building the factory is alleged to have won the job by corrupt means, and as a consequence all their expenditure is now undergoing close examination.

In other words, nothing to do with Tesla.

Did you post it here because you hadn't read it through properly and hadn't realised how shoddy it is? Or because you work for a company that is a competitor to Tesla?
 
StewartR said:
Did you post it here because you hadn't read it through properly and hadn't realised how shoddy it is? Or because you work for a company that is a competitor to Tesla?
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I didn't post it for any of those reasons. I read the article, but do admit I didn't click on any links.
The reason I posted it is because Tesla is struggling more and more. They are struggling to produce their current model line up and yet taking orders for new models which they are now having to delay.
Tesla, as I wrote before is losing money fast. It is pretty much those advanced orders that is keeping them going at the moment, unless something changes soon, not only will there be a lot of people losing jobs and suppliers not being paid but also prospective car owners losing their deposits.
Musk was recently asked questions by financial analysts and his answers didn't exactly help Tesla's position, it was almost as if he was having a meltdown.
He has now emailed employees telling them that they must vouch for any contractors working at Tesla, any contractors not vouched for won't be allowed on the premises. It appears that contractors have been contracting work out to other contractors.
It seems that in the time he has recently spent sleeping in one of his factories trying to get things sorted has highlighted a lot of problems and he is trying to rectify them. The questions being, is it too late? And is he starting to panic. The rumoured August 2018 when the money runs out is looming.
 
Tesla has been about to run out of money in the next quarter for years. Oil companies and friends of oil billionaires will be in a right huff if tesla succeeds. EVs can turn the world economy upside down as there won't be need to invade countries with oil at all. Or be nice to them. Lots of nasty people won't have power over the rest of the planet as we won't need their oil at all.

Tesla do have some serious QC and QA issues though. For that they need a good slap by someone that can sort out their production methods. But it's not as if normal car manufacturers aren't blameless either. They have all produced duff cars or duff items. There are plenty of quality issues with many brands that can cause loads of unnecessary breakdowns.
 
I'm never going back to diesel.
Dirty, smelly, clunky.

Just the experience of putting fuel in the damn things was enough to put me off.

As for electric cars, if they can get one to full charge in under 10 minutes and the national grid can take the strain? then I'm in.
 
srichards said:
Tesla has been about to run out of money in the next quarter for years. Oil companies and friends of oil billionaires will be in a right huff if tesla succeeds. EVs can turn the world economy upside down as there won't be need to invade countries with oil at all. Or be nice to them. Lots of nasty people won't have power over the rest of the planet as we won't need their oil at all.

Tesla do have some serious QC and QA issues though. For that they need a good slap by someone that can sort out their production methods. But it's not as if normal car manufacturers aren't blameless either. They have all produced duff cars or duff items. There are plenty of quality issues with many brands that can cause loads of unnecessary breakdowns.
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Agreed every manufacturer will have warranty claims or recalls. But Tesla seems to have escalating production problems. I don't know if they had any problems with the S, but something seems to be going wrong since. Perhaps the wrong contractors are being employed to build and tool the factories. In one factory that was supposed to have started production and customers having taken delivery of their cars, robots were still in their packaging several months later, still waiting to be installed.
You can't knock Musk for his innovation and determination to progress the technology, but either his launch dates are unrealistic, or someone just isn't learning from the mistakes made in one factory as more are being made in the next.
Car manufacturers tend to have a 3 week summer shutdown, sometimes that is used for essential maintenance or retooling part of production. That involves ripping out the old line or machinery and installing the new machinery. Tesla are struggling with just half the job, the installation.
 
soupdragon said:
I'm never going back to diesel.
Dirty, smelly, clunky.

Just the experience of putting fuel in the damn things was enough to put me off.

As for electric cars, if they can get one to full charge in under 10 minutes and the national grid can take the strain? then I'm in.
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I have owned both petrol and diesel, can't say I have noticed any difference in refuelling experiences other than they were less frequent with a diesel car.
 
nilagin said:
Agreed every manufacturer will have warranty claims or recalls. But Tesla seems to have escalating production problems. I don't know if they had any problems with the S, but something seems to be going wrong since.
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It's just the transition to 'mass' production that is difficult. The Model S was much lower numbers.
It was widely predicted that despite hiring mass production experts, a new firm will always have serious problems before all the teams settle in, and get used to working together. But in mass production 'all' problems are serious problems.
On top of all that, they are doing something that no other car company has ever done. If they solve all the problems, they will be way ahead of the game.
 
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nilagin said:
I have owned both petrol and diesel, can't say I have noticed any difference in refuelling experiences other than they were less frequent with a diesel car.
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I've never felt the need to get plastic gloves for petrol. But I always used plastic gloves for diesel, getting the smallest bit onto my hand is disgusting. The smell just can't be washed off, it stays around for days.

Then there's the smell of non-optimum burning. When I am using 12v pump to top up air in the tyres with a cold engine, I have to hold my breath because of the smell.

The refuelling frequency is perceptive. Having gotten used to taking 5s to plug in every night, I have not visited a petrol station for 2 months. (6 weeks ago my son was born, I was driving the diesel with my EV at the ready before then. Since birth, the diesel had only been driven once a month ensure 12v battery is topped up) Never having to think about the need to stop on my way home is liberating. In a way, you could say I've not had to think about refuelling my car for over 1000 miles (4 weeks 60 miles commute).
 
soupdragon said:
Just the experience of putting fuel in the damn things was enough to put me off.
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They will obviously make you pay for a specially trained attendant to fill it up for you. Normal people, like grannies will not be expected to do it. What if they drop the hose? Boom!. Anyway they will never let people drive around with huge containers of flammable liquids on board. What if there was an accident?
And where are you going to fill it up? Do you think they'll let big rich oil companies build smelly, dirty filling up places, in the nearby streets, attracting loads of cars? Or out in the beautiful countryside?
And what about the fumes that come out? Surely it will reach illegal levels if too much comes out in one place.
No. Things aren't going to change.
 
wuyanxu said:
I've never felt the need to get plastic gloves for petrol. But I always used plastic gloves for diesel, getting the smallest bit onto my hand is disgusting. The smell just can't be washed off, it stays around for days.

Then there's the smell of non-optimum burning. When I am using 12v pump to top up air in the tyres with a cold engine, I have to hold my breath because of the smell.

The refuelling frequency is perceptive. Having gotten used to taking 5s to plug in every night, I have not visited a petrol station for 2 months. (6 weeks ago my son was born, I was driving the diesel with my EV at the ready before then. Since birth, the diesel had only been driven once a month ensure 12v battery is topped up) Never having to think about the need to stop on my way home is liberating. In a way, you could say I've not had to think about refuelling my car for over 1000 miles (4 weeks 60 miles commute).
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Why would you need to run the engine to operate a 12V pump to put air in your tyres?

My sister-in-law took her parents to their caravan for the weekend. My sister-in-law drives a Nissan Leaf, problem is the distance to the caravan is more than half the vehicles range away. There are no recharge points on the way and she had hoped to use a recharge point in a supermarket close to the caravan park. Due to bank holiday hours, the supermarket was shut. So unable to recharge for the journey home yesterday, she had to recharge overnight by plugging into her parents caravan. Only problem with that is you have to be careful what other electrics you use on the caravan at the same time as it will blow the main fuse and the park owners don't allow people to recharge electric vehicles, hence why she would have to do it unseen overnight. They then had to be early this morning to avoid rush hour traffic and get my nephew home, quick change of clothes and off to school.
Would be so much easier on a tank of petrol or diesel.
 
ianp5a said:
To be the first all electric car company to achieve mass production levels.
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The moving production line has been around for almost 105yrs. What is their delay and being the first all electric company is just an accolade, not a reason for delay.
 
nilagin said:
I have owned both petrol and diesel, can't say I have noticed any difference in refuelling experiences other than they were less frequent with a diesel car.
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It came to be a point of irritation with my last oil burner.

The times I forgot to use the "one size fits all" blue plastic gloves and got diesel on my hands only to inadvertently wipe it down my jeans.
The stink lingers forever and no amount of wet wipes/hand sanitizer/washing will get rid of the stuff.
On the subject of daily usage.
The cloud of rank smelling smoke the things billow on first morning start is wretch inducing, particularly in a following breeze.
I can find no redeeming feature in diesels whatsoever.
 
nilagin said:
Why would you need to run the engine to operate a 12V pump to put air in your tyres?

My sister-in-law took her parents to their caravan for the weekend. My sister-in-law drives a Nissan Leaf, problem is the distance to the caravan is more than half the vehicles range away. There are no recharge points on the way and she had hoped to use a recharge point in a supermarket close to the caravan park. Due to bank holiday hours, the supermarket was shut. So unable to recharge for the journey home yesterday, she had to recharge overnight by plugging into her parents caravan. Only problem with that is you have to be careful what other electrics you use on the caravan at the same time as it will blow the main fuse and the park owners don't allow people to recharge electric vehicles, hence why she would have to do it unseen overnight. They then had to be early this morning to avoid rush hour traffic and get my nephew home, quick change of clothes and off to school.
Would be so much easier on a tank of petrol or diesel.
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Having engine running to use 12v air pump is the recommendation is it not? To prevent going getting flat and better air pump speed. Either way, it doesn't detract from the cold engine problem.

Your example highlights problem with the public rapid charging network. If there are as many rapid charging as petrol pumps, and as well spread out, that journey wouldn't be a problem. May I ask which part of the country is that? I've never been far away from a rapid charger in N London, but I still wouldn't rely too much on them simply due to each location only have one charger.
 
soupdragon said:
I'm never going back to diesel.
Dirty, smelly, clunky.

Just the experience of putting fuel in the damn things was enough to put me off.

As for electric cars, if they can get one to full charge in under 10 minutes and the national grid can take the strain? then I'm in.
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soupdragon said:
It came to be a point of irritation with my last oil burner.

The times I forgot to use the "one size fits all" blue plastic gloves and got diesel on my hands only to inadvertently wipe it down my jeans.
The stink lingers forever and no amount of wet wipes/hand sanitizer/washing will get rid of the stuff.
On the subject of daily usage.
The cloud of rank smelling smoke the things billow on first morning start is wretch inducing, particularly in a following breeze.
I can find no redeeming feature in diesels whatsoever.
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Not driven a modern one then?

Even then my 03 or 05 vag dervs never smoked at start or sounded clunky. But then they were all serviced regularly by vag indis.
 
neil_g said:
Not driven a modern one then?

Even then my 03 or 05 vag dervs never smoked at start or sounded clunky. But then they were all serviced regularly by vag indis.
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I'd have to agree, my current 16 plate German diesel never smokes on start up, nor is it in any way clunky.
Can't remember the last time I managed to spill diesel on myself either come to think of it. Mind you I'd rather spill a little diesel than petrol, only one of those goes bang when there's a spark :)
 
neil_g said:
Not driven a modern one then?

Even then my 03 or 05 vag dervs never smoked at start or sounded clunky. But then they were all serviced regularly by vag indis.
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Only a 2018 Skoda Octavia. That stank and smoked when starting in the morning.
Perhaps it's a Skoda thing.

What's a vag? I mean I can think of plenty of words it might be abbreviated from.
 
neil_g said:
Not driven a modern one then?

Even then my 03 or 05 vag dervs never smoked at start or sounded clunky. But then they were all serviced regularly by vag indis.
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My '63 reg Skoda 2.0 diesel (same VAG engine used in VW and Audi's) doesn't visibly smoke, but the horrible smell is still there. Serviced by Skoda all its life.

When compared to a smooth petrol or EV, even the most modern 6 pot diesel are noisy. It has improved over the years, but it's simply in a different league.
 
PaulF said:
I'd have to agree, my current 16 plate German diesel never smokes on start up, nor is it in any way clunky.
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Likewise my 11 plate Mini. The last Diesel I owned that smoked significantly on startup was a Citroen BX in the late 90s. The Peugeot 406 that replaced it in the mid 2000s did not, nor the 55 plate 307 that replaced it, nor the wife's 05 plate Beetle or her 12 plate Mini Cooper SD. None of them were clunky, and all drove well for a car of their design regardless of fuel type (and in some cases better than the petrol version).

Getting diesel fuel on your skin is unpleasant, but so is an electric shock - just take the appropriate precautions not to come into contact with your chosen fuel type and all will be well.
 
soupdragon said:
Only a 2018 Skoda Octavia. That stank and smoked when starting in the morning.
Perhaps it's a Skoda thing.

What's a vag? I mean I can think of plenty of words it might be abbreviated from.
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Volks Audi Group.

Odd, Ive been out in a few 2015 octavia (vrs dsg) and none have noticeably smelled or smoked. Maybe it's the type of driving?

wuyanxu said:
My '63 reg Skoda 2.0 diesel (same VAG engine used in VW and Audi's) doesn't visibly smoke, but the horrible smell is still there. Serviced by Skoda all its life.

When compared to a smooth petrol or EV, even the most modern 6 pot diesel are noisy. It has improved over the years, but it's simply in a different league.
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As above.

Last noisy/smelly diesel I owned was an old Fiat Tempra many moons ago :D
 
wuyanxu said:
Having engine running to use 12v air pump is the recommendation is it not? To prevent going getting flat and better air pump speed. Either way, it doesn't detract from the cold engine problem.

Your example highlights problem with the public rapid charging network. If there are as many rapid charging as petrol pumps, and as well spread out, that journey wouldn't be a problem. May I ask which part of the country is that? I've never been far away from a rapid charger in N London, but I still wouldn't rely too much on them simply due to each location only have one charger.
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I have never had to have the engine running to use my 12v power supply to pump up tyres. If you are having to put more than 2-3psi in each tyre you either don't check your tyres enough or you have a puncture / leaking valve and should get it fixed.
My sister in law had to drive along the A12 from just inside the M25 to just short of Clacton. There are a few charge points along the way if you don't mind making a detour. But still not ideal for a two way commute that can easily be done on just over half a tank of fuel.
 
I see from the news, Nissan are pulling out of diesel cars.
I originally went diesel as the fuel was cheap and the mpg good.
With diesel costs at the pump outstripping petrol now, I can see no compelling reason to go back to it.

Wasn't the VAG group responsible for Dieselgate?
 
nilagin said:
My sister in law had to drive along the A12 from just inside the M25 to just short of Clacton. There are a few charge points along the way if you don't mind making a detour. But still not ideal for a two way commute that can easily be done on just over half a tank of fuel.
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There's a Ecotricity rapid right on the A12. https://www.zap-map.com/pts/l2pcq9u/
There's a Nissan dealership off A road in Colchester, will be slower local roads, but saving a few miles of ring road going around Colchester, hardly out of the way.

It's not ideal for commuting, but it definitely doesn't require an overnight stay. Having said that, I'd have done it in my diesel because there is not enough plan B en-route. By the time there are as many rapid charging stations as petrol pumps, top up during quick rest stops will be easy.

neil_g said:
Odd, Ive been out in a few 2015 octavia (vrs dsg) and none have noticeably smelled or smoked. Maybe it's the type of driving?

Last noisy/smelly diesel I owned was an old Fiat Tempra many moons ago :D
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Of course you can't smell it inside the car. It's an invisible smell outside the car near the rear. Next time start a cold diesel, wait 1min and have a whiff near the rear bumper.

Our diesel only see long distance driving, minimal is my commute 30 miles one way 25 of which are on the motorway.
 
soupdragon said:
Only a 2018 Skoda Octavia. That stank and smoked when starting in the morning.
Perhaps it's a Skoda thing.

What's a vag? I mean I can think of plenty of words it might be abbreviated from.
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That must have been a "Friday afternoon" example.
I often use a company Octavia, '67 plate, and there's no smell, no rough engine tone, no smoke.
Actually it's a rather nice car all round.
 
Cobra said:
They put a car in space, you silly billy :D
That'll help the emissions (y)
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Ah but Ford helped put an electric vehicle on the moon long, long before that. They were responsible for NASA Mission Control. ;)
 
wuyanxu said:
There's a Ecotricity rapid right on the A12. https://www.zap-map.com/pts/l2pcq9u/
There's a Nissan dealership off A road in Colchester, will be slower local roads, but saving a few miles of ring road going around Colchester, hardly out of the way.

It's not ideal for commuting, but it definitely doesn't require an overnight stay. Having said that, I'd have done it in my diesel because there is not enough plan B en-route. By the time there are as many rapid charging stations as petrol pumps, top up during quick rest stops will be easy.
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The Ecotricity chargepoint is only on one carriageway and unfortunately the wrong carriageway. It would have meant a recharge on the way home and very close to the vehicles range limit. Factor in traffic levels on a bank holiday weekend, having to make diversions for a recharge isn't always as easy as it would normally be.
 
nilagin said:
Ah but Ford helped put an electric vehicle on the moon long, long before that.
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Allegedly :D

At least this one can be seen in real time ....
Oh hang on, Have you seen "Moon Raker"? :D
 
My 6 pot BMW sounded ok for a diesel but compared to my current four pot and near silent petrol I'm never going back to diesel. I don't mind the slight economy and performance hit to gain a greater level of refinement.

How are so many people getting fuel on their hands when filling up? The nozzle is miles away. I dread to think what happens when you shake the snake.... stand clear everyone!
 
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