Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't know a great deal about engineering and engines but surely a diesel engine designed for a generator will be setup/tuned very differently than that for a car?
 
It dose not help clean air. When a bus sat out side my house. Stationary for 20 minuets with the engine running.
 
How on earth can you claim to have a zero emmissions car when you have to charge it using a diesel generator - that is the ultimate madness.
It looks as though DEFRA is going to clamp down on diesel generators, because previously they have been outside the diesel emissions rules.

https://policyexchange.org.uk/is-the-party-over-for-dirty-diesel-generators/


EVs are emission free at the point of use thus reducing the nasties in towns and city air.

Looking at the tailpipes of our ICE cars, the '14 plate petrol is a damn sight sootier than the '59 plate Diesel.
 
Never mind electric charging points. I took the TVR to Pembroke this weekend and there's no super unleaded nearby, it's all towards Carmarthen, 20 miles away :D
 
your really clutching at straws with some of your quotes on this, so EV is dead because the battery might take 60mins for a big fat charge.......yawn......

I offer some boring reading for you to occupy your narrow mind

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45786690
Or he's saying, like most people here, that electric simply does not work for some people.
 
your really clutching at straws with some of your quotes on this, so EV is dead because the battery might take 60mins for a big fat charge.......yawn......

I offer some boring reading for you to occupy your narrow mind

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45786690
How do you derive that Nissan giving false impressions on their recharge times in their advertising, is me clutching at straws?
Still waiting for you to answer why when you are so pro EV, that you recently bought a fossil fuelled car recently.
 
The new Leaf is a dog without proper thermal battery management. It makes it useless in very hot weather, very cold weather, at high speeds and with repeated rapid charging. For someone that just charges up at home and bimbles then it's fine.
 
I offer some boring reading for you to occupy your narrow mind

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45786690
If no one will own their cars and they will be automated, consider a group of say 100 employees all finishing work at the same time walking out of work to get into the cab they have ordered to go home. How will you know which cab is yours? How are 100 cabs going to line up ready to collect the person that ordered them?
Once pedestrians realise these automated vehicles are designed to stop and not injure them, busy towns will be full of people crossing roads with disregard for traffic and cars will be unable to move.
Now who is short sighted?
 
Tesla outselling Jag this year. A single model (with very limited trim options) outsold whole Jaguar brand in Q3
https://insideevs.com/tesla-now-outsells-jaguar-globally/

Now who is short sighted?
So every other car manufacturer here must be wrong: https://thedriven.io/2018/10/08/the-future-is-bright-and-electric-at-the-paris-motor-show-2018/

With your attitude of saying No to autonomous vehicles, No to zero tailpipe emission vehicles. Calling other people short sighted, oh the irony ;)
 
@wuyanxu dude @nilagin couldn't give a hoot remember he works for the equivalent of British Tobaccos when they were spending loads of there cash defeding the tenuous link to cancer, he is batting for the dinosaurs so has to toe the party line.
 
With your attitude of saying No to autonomous vehicles, No to zero tailpipe emission vehicles. Calling other people short sighted, oh the irony ;)

No short sightedness from me. You answer the question then, if we are all going to have to rely on automated cars, how will the system cope with 100 people all leaving work at the same time, how will each person know which automated cab is theirs, where are the 100 cars going to wait without causing congestion?
The short sightedness is on those that haven't thought of such scenarios.
 
@wuyanxu dude @nilagin couldn't give a hoot remember he works for the equivalent of British Tobaccos when they were spending loads of there cash defeding the tenuous link to cancer, he is batting for the dinosaurs so has to toe the party line.
Ford are investing $11bn into hybrid and electric vehicles. I am currently testing and developing a hybrid engine. So I am doing more for the environment than you, Are you going to let us know why, having just had to replace your car, you didn't buy a hybrid or EV?
 
Tesla outselling Jag this year. A single model (with very limited trim options) outsold whole Jaguar brand in Q3
https://insideevs.com/tesla-now-outsells-jaguar-globally/
Fairly sure the Tesla Model 3 was all pre-order. People have been waiting quite a while since having placed their orders. Truth is having finally started to sort it's production woes, Tesla have recently managed to actually deliver customers cars. So what you are seeing is a comparison of Tesla deliveries against Jaguar sales.
 
how will each person know which automated cab is theirs, where are the 100 cars going to wait without causing congestion?
The short sightedness is on those that haven't thought of such scenarios.
Simple to answer, in your purely hypothetical scenario:
What are existing car parks going to be used for? Without car ownership, why the need to know which cab is theirs? what is stopping the first person from jumping into the nearest cab? Without car ownership, ride sharing can also work much better, there is no longer a single person being responsible for return trip. Thus won't be 100 cars waiting.

Ford are investing $11bn into hybrid and electric vehicles. I am currently testing and developing a hybrid engine. So I am doing more for the environment than you, Are you going to let us know why, having just had to replace your car, you didn't buy a hybrid or EV?
Only $11bn into both hybrid and electric vehicles?
VW investing $84bn into electric vehicles alone.
https://www.zmescience.com/science/vw-electric-vehicles/

How much range will your hybrid engine car give us? The future is tiny motorbike engine range extender in an EV for those people who must produce tail pipe emissions. The 2040 ban is rumoured to require 50 miles zero emission range, unless you put a battery size of almost whole gen1 Leaf EV in there, you'd be hard pushed to achieve that range by engineering a traditional hybrid.
(8.6kWh in the Golf GTE to achieve 25 miles of EV range, 19kWh is likely required to achieve 50 miles of EV range. In comparison, Hyundai Ioniq battery EV 30kWh can achieve 100+ miles of range)


Speaking of tail pipe emissions. I was in the city (of London) with my wife and 6mo son to apply visa for the little one. My wife hasn't gone into the city best part of this year due to the newborn. She had only been going to local parks, supermarkets and shopping centres. Walking from Regent's Park to King's Cross, She kept saying how bad the air is, and how smelly the main roads are. The diesel taxies and idling "hybrid" buses are to blame. The electric cab future mentioned above is part the solution, with new range extender equipped electric London taxi filling the gap now.
We really need to change the way we live right now, $11bn is a drop in the ocean for one of US biggest car company, only doing development on a mild hybrid that we have already seen 20 years ago is waaaaay too late. (similarly, VW's 48v mild hybrid engines are pretty pointless IMO, PHEV should be absolute minimal right now with range extended EV coming in 2025)

Fairly sure the Tesla Model 3 was all pre-order. People have been waiting quite a while since having placed their orders. Truth is having finally started to sort it's production woes, Tesla have recently managed to actually deliver customers cars. So what you are seeing is a comparison of Tesla deliveries against Jaguar sales.
They have opened up their order books to whoever want to order their single trim level Model 3. A lot of the pre-orders are people waiting for the cheaper, shorter range version. I don't really see Tesla having problems getting sales. Demand for Model 3 faaaar out strip supply. Thanks for supercharger network, Tesla is still the only viable long distance EV, the Model 3 is the cheapest ticket into that charging network.
 
Simple to answer, in your purely hypothetical scenario:
What are existing car parks going to be used for? Without car ownership, why the need to know which cab is theirs? what is stopping the first person from jumping into the nearest cab? Without car ownership, ride sharing can also work much better, there is no longer a single person being responsible for return trip. Thus won't be 100 cars waiting.


Only $11bn into both hybrid and electric vehicles?
VW investing $84bn into electric vehicles alone.
https://www.zmescience.com/science/vw-electric-vehicles/

How much range will your hybrid engine car give us? The future is tiny motorbike engine range extender in an EV for those people who must produce tail pipe emissions. The 2040 ban is rumoured to require 50 miles zero emission range, unless you put a battery size of almost whole gen1 Leaf EV in there, you'd be hard pushed to achieve that range by engineering a traditional hybrid.
(8.6kWh in the Golf GTE to achieve 25 miles of EV range, 19kWh is likely required to achieve 50 miles of EV range. In comparison, Hyundai Ioniq battery EV 30kWh can achieve 100+ miles of range)


Speaking of tail pipe emissions. I was in the city (of London) with my wife and 6mo son to apply visa for the little one. My wife hasn't gone into the city best part of this year due to the newborn. She had only been going to local parks, supermarkets and shopping centres. Walking from Regent's Park to King's Cross, She kept saying how bad the air is, and how smelly the main roads are. The diesel taxies and idling "hybrid" buses are to blame. The electric cab future mentioned above is part the solution, with new range extender equipped electric London taxi filling the gap now.
We really need to change the way we live right now, $11bn is a drop in the ocean for one of US biggest car company, only doing development on a mild hybrid that we have already seen 20 years ago is waaaaay too late. (similarly, VW's 48v mild hybrid engines are pretty pointless IMO, PHEV should be absolute minimal right now with range extended EV coming in 2025)


They have opened up their order books to whoever want to order their single trim level Model 3. A lot of the pre-orders are people waiting for the cheaper, shorter range version. I don't really see Tesla having problems getting sales. Demand for Model 3 faaaar out strip supply. Thanks for supercharger network, Tesla is still the only viable long distance EV, the Model 3 is the cheapest ticket into that charging network.

Car parks will cease to exist, they will become housing developments etc. They aren't going to remain empty for 23hrs a day waiting to fill up with cars to pick up people for their journey home.

Lift sharing won't improve things for many people. I go to the gym straight after work on early shift and before work on a late shift, so I wouldn't be able to share a lift. The only people I know of at work, who lift share do so because of the distances they travel and they live local to each other.
Regardless of whether Tesla have opened up their Model 3 order books, most of the cars they will have supplied are long overdue orders that they are finally meeting after countless production woes so it is still a case of cars finally delivered and hence registered against actual Jaguar sales.
 
They have opened up their order books to whoever want to order their single trim level Model 3. A lot of the pre-orders are people waiting for the cheaper, shorter range version. I don't really see Tesla having problems getting sales. Demand for Model 3 faaaar out strip supply. Thanks for supercharger network, Tesla is still the only viable long distance EV, the Model 3 is the cheapest ticket into that charging network.

You need to read the article in 'Inside EV's' that you linked to again, even the EV biased site states that Tesla delivered 154000 electric vehicles which included 84000 Model 3's which were all, and I do mean all, pre-orders compared to 136000 Jags in the frist 9 months of the year. Look at the official data, Jag were out selling Tesla by 10-25 thousand units per quarter throughout the 2017 and 2018 until a sharp rise in Q2 to Q3 2018 which, let me guess was when the 84k Model 3's rolled off the production and into the hands of the customers who had pre-ordered them for $1000 in the last few years.

It will be interesting to see if once all the pre-orders have been fulfilled if the trend continues.

Meanwhile, BMW have sold around 536,000 cars in Europe alone during 2018 up to August. Some will be EV or Hybrid. We could list all the other manufacturers as well but there really isn't any need.
 
how will the system cope with 100 people all leaving work at the same time, how will each person know which automated cab is theirs, where are the 100 cars going to wait without causing congestion?
Well, you will be pleased to hear that they have just completed the 3 year autonomous vehicle and pod tests right here.
All they have to do now is collate the data and convince people they are (both) safe.... That was their words not mine..
It seems they are to be allowed to use the foot paths ( the pods) at a speed of 6mph.

I think jag has always been a fairly niche brand.
As above, they are the ones heavily involved in the testing
Jaguar Land Rover has demonstrated how self-driving cars can help cut traffic in Milton Keynes,
 
You need to read the article in 'Inside EV's' that you linked to again, even the EV biased site states that Tesla delivered 154000 electric vehicles which included 84000 Model 3's which were all, and I do mean all, pre-orders compared to 136000 Jags in the frist 9 months of the year. Look at the official data, Jag were out selling Tesla by 10-25 thousand units per quarter throughout the 2017 and 2018 until a sharp rise in Q2 to Q3 2018 which, let me guess was when the 84k Model 3's rolled off the production and into the hands of the customers who had pre-ordered them for $1000 in the last few years.
The underlined text, how did you draw that conclusion? You are obviously adding information to the short few lines of text on insideev website. You need to read the article again.

I admit majority of which are likely to be pre-orders. But this is the problem with people, people read whatever they want to read based on previous assumptions. Your assumption is wrong, Tesla opened their order books way back in July, aka Q3: https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/10/17556948/tesla-model-3-orders-now-available-north-america
 
The underlined text, how did you draw that conclusion? You are obviously adding information to the short few lines of text on insideev website. You need to read the article again.

I admit majority of which are likely to be pre-orders. But this is the problem with people, people read whatever they want to read based on previous assumptions. Your assumption is wrong, Tesla opened their order books way back in July, aka Q3: https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/10/17556948/tesla-model-3-orders-now-available-north-america
Err, Tesla are still fulfilling pre-ordered Model 3's only. You cannot buy one and have it delivered before the current (pre orders) are fulfilled. Sorry if I didn't state that in my previous reply as I assumed it was common knowledge.

I'd also expect a jump in 'sales' or deliveries in the UK sometime next year when Tesla start production of the right hand drive Model 3 which was due to start early 2019 the last time I looked.
 
The underlined text, how did you draw that conclusion? You are obviously adding information to the short few lines of text on insideev website. You need to read the article again.

I admit majority of which are likely to be pre-orders. But this is the problem with people, people read whatever they want to read based on previous assumptions. Your assumption is wrong, Tesla opened their order books way back in July, aka Q3: https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/10/17556948/tesla-model-3-orders-now-available-north-america
No he has based his opinions on facts not assumptions. Tesla had taken 420k $1k deposits by July, yet had barely made a dent in cars delivered by that date. It has been in the press over the past few weeks that Model 3 production is now being made in sensible numbers, hence Tesla's sales actually being mostly long awaited cars being delivered and registered as opposed to other manufacturers regular order, build and registration process. So the assumptions are all yours by finding information that doesn't give the full facts, but just numbers.
 
I'd also expect a jump in 'sales' or deliveries in the UK sometime next year when Tesla start production of the right hand drive Model 3 which was due to start early 2019 the last time I looked.
They need to come up with a price first and I bet it won't be cheap.
 
Err, Tesla are still fulfilling pre-ordered Model 3's only. You cannot buy one and have it delivered before the current (pre orders) are fulfilled. Sorry if I didn't state that in my previous reply as I assumed it was common knowledge.

I'd also expect a jump in 'sales' or deliveries in the UK sometime next year when Tesla start production of the right hand drive Model 3 which was due to start early 2019 the last time I looked.
You can't buy one before the current (pre orders) are fulfilled? oh really? "Delivery within 4 weeks" https://3.tesla.com/model3/design?#battery

You two need to actually read the articles. You can now order, get it built and start driving your Model 3 in 4 weeks time as long as you order a specific trim and live in US.
 
You can't buy one before the current (pre orders) are fulfilled? oh really? "Delivery within 4 weeks" https://3.tesla.com/model3/design?#battery

You two need to actually read the articles. You can now order, get it built and start driving your Model 3 in 4 weeks time as long as you order a specific trim and live in US.

Interesting, that link goes direct to a reservation page asking for a credit card and £1000 to reserve.

However, this link https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/model3 shows a delivery timescale of 12-18 months for the Model 3 although it does also mention orders placed today will begin in 'early 2019' which is sooner than 12 months but 'early' isn't defined.

You can get a Model S in 7-14 days if it's an inventory one or 3-4 months for a custom order.
 
They need to come up with a price first and I bet it won't be cheap.

Probably won't be cheap but the range it has will attract people to buy, after all I do see a few Tesla Model S's and the occasional Model X around, not as often as I see Jaguars obviously.
 
Interesting, that link goes direct to a reservation page asking for a credit card and £1000 to reserve.

However, this link https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/model3 shows a delivery timescale of 12-18 months for the Model 3 although it does also mention orders placed today will begin in 'early 2019' which is sooner than 12 months but 'early' isn't defined.

You can get a Model S in 7-14 days if it's an inventory one or 3-4 months for a custom order.
Thanks for checking.

For me, that link takes me to the US order page for some unknown reason. If you do select their US site and click order Model 3, you should be taken to the order page and it will say 4 weeks delivery.
 
Interesting, that link goes direct to a reservation page asking for a credit card and £1000 to reserve.

For a split second that link points to a US based site but it doesn't stay there long enough to see any details before reverting to the UK pre-order site.

Seen a couple of I Pace test reports and (other than the price!) I could be interested.
 
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-n...rant-axed-for-phevs-and-cut-for-electric-cars
As I mentioned in an earlier post, it is now confirmed EV grants are to be reduced and plug in hybrid grants are to be axed all together.
Only £1000 taken off from battery EV grant, now £3500 per car. Not too much difference in grant scheme of things.

Regarding hybrid. As I was saying above in middle of post #1543. Tiny ICE engine as range extender EV is the future (if you MUST have ICE). Not all PHEV have been axed from the grant, i3 REx hybrid can still get the grant because it sits comfortably in category 1.
https://www.nextgreencar.com/view-c...xtender-auto-plug-in-petrol-hybrid-automatic/

Unfortunately car manufacturers don't seem to get this. Still puts underpowered electric motor in their hybrids and insist on firing up ICE when kick-down is activated. What they really need to focus on is to go full electric with a new chassis (like VW's MEB) and have a Tesla style "frunk". Then put in an ICE as range extender for those who REALLY want to burn fossil fuel. As production of this new platform ramps up, economy of scale will bring price of EV down, then like the MQB, the chassis can be offered on cheaper and cheaper cars. (eg. Golf first, now Polo is on MQB)

Oh, and all EV should be rear wheel drive. The electric motor is size of a watermelon, no longer constrained by the ICE location. Only reason not to put it in the rear is to re-use current production lines (Leaf is produced on the same line as Juke in Sunderland) I can feel the horrible torque steer in my sedate Leaf, there's also report of torque steer and wheel spin in the Kona.
Also better traction control. Unlike ICE, you can electronically control motor output in under a millisecond. The TC in Kona is obviously not up to the task, my Leaf TC is also questionable when accelerating in wet.
 
Oh, and all EV should be rear wheel drive. The electric motor is size of a watermelon, no longer constrained by the ICE location. Only reason not to put it in the rear is to re-use current production lines (Leaf is produced on the same line as Juke in Sunderland) I can feel the horrible torque steer in my sedate Leaf, there's also report of torque steer and wheel spin in the Kona.
Also better traction control. Unlike ICE, you can electronically control motor output in under a millisecond. The TC in Kona is obviously not up to the task, my Leaf TC is also questionable when accelerating in wet.
The torque steer in your leaf is down to a combination of poor chassis, suspension and narrow tyres, not that it is fwd. A fwd car needs to have an engine or motor producing over 250bhp to have torque steer.
All modern ICE vehicles with TC, should be able to respond within milliseconds. The system in my car monitors various sensors 100's of times a second and reacts accordingly. Even the slightest amount of front wheel slip or torque steer and 70% of the drive is immediately sent to the rear wheels and if the need should arrive, up to 100% of that drive going to the rear wheels can be sent to either rear wheel to keep traction meaning no loss of drive and being able to continue accelerating in a controlled manner even round bends and in the wet.
 
Only £1000 taken off from battery EV grant, now £3500 per car. Not too much difference in grant scheme of things.

Regarding hybrid. As I was saying above in middle of post #1543. Tiny ICE engine as range extender EV is the future (if you MUST have ICE). Not all PHEV have been axed from the grant, i3 REx hybrid can still get the grant because it sits comfortably in category 1.
https://www.nextgreencar.com/view-c...xtender-auto-plug-in-petrol-hybrid-automatic/

Unfortunately car manufacturers don't seem to get this. Still puts underpowered electric motor in their hybrids and insist on firing up ICE when kick-down is activated. What they really need to focus on is to go full electric with a new chassis (like VW's MEB) and have a Tesla style "frunk". Then put in an ICE as range extender for those who REALLY want to burn fossil fuel. As production of this new platform ramps up, economy of scale will bring price of EV down, then like the MQB, the chassis can be offered on cheaper and cheaper cars. (eg. Golf first, now Polo is on MQB)

Oh, and all EV should be rear wheel drive. The electric motor is size of a watermelon, no longer constrained by the ICE location. Only reason not to put it in the rear is to re-use current production lines (Leaf is produced on the same line as Juke in Sunderland) I can feel the horrible torque steer in my sedate Leaf, there's also report of torque steer and wheel spin in the Kona.
Also better traction control. Unlike ICE, you can electronically control motor output in under a millisecond. The TC in Kona is obviously not up to the task, my Leaf TC is also questionable when accelerating in wet.
I'm not sure anyone WANTS to burn focil fuels as you so eloquently put it. Personally I wouldn't mind going down a more environmentally friendly route.

But it just doesn't cut it for me right now.

The range/haulage capacity isn't there, the charging infrastructure isn't there, batteries are still massive environmental issues in their own right, our electricity generation is not particularly clean etc etc
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top