Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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nilagin said:
Certainly my idea of a fun car, I have fun every day. ;)
The second I first started the car at the dealership when I bought it, I developed a big soppy grin. Same grin appears every time I start it 14 months later. :)
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As long as you are having fun, (y)
 
OK, same poll here:
Us 2 cars, 2 adults
Next door up 2 cars 2 adults
Next door down 3 cars 3 adults
Next door across 3 cars 3 adults
Next door behind 2 cars 3 adults
 
Re poll:
9 houses in my close:
2 cars, 2 car driveway, 2 adults and a baby (us)
2 cars, 1 car driveway, 2 adults 2 teenagers
2-3 cars, 1 car driveway, 3-4 adults (haven't seen their Fiat for a while, may be the daughter moved out)
2 cars, 1 car driveway, 2 adults
1 car, 1 car driveway, 2 adults
1 car, 2 car driveway, 2 adults and 2 kids
1 car, 2 car driveway, 2 adults
1 car, 2 car driveway, 2 adults and 3 kids
1 car, 2 car driveway, 3 adults

This close is a bit of oxymoron, bigger taller (more bedrooms) townhouse have compact front, but less floors (thus less bedrooms) link-detached houses have bigger gardens and driveway.

Being in greater London, about half the houses don't use their car for commute. 1-2 cars per household seems to be normal around here.

nilagin said:
I don't go looking for charging points as I have no use for them, but the only ones I have noticed are the ones in the visitors car park at work and also in an O2 Arena car park. I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread but all the charging spaces were full in the O2 car park although not all the cars were plugged in, so I guess some EV owners figure they are reserved for EV cars regardless of whether being charged. When we returned to the car park 4.5 hours later the exact same cars were still in the charging spaces, still in the same plugged in or not plugged in state.
Not exactly in the spirit of use of the charging points.
Even at work emails are periodically sent out reminding people that they should vacate the spaces as soon as they have finished charging so that others can use the chargers.
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There are 2 types of EV chargers:
- less than 22kW Destination charger, with a Type 2 socket, supply own cable. There shouldn't be any pressure to vacate or unplug because it's in a car park, at one's destination. Treat it like a car park.
- 50kW+ Rapid charger, cables supplied, either Chademo or CCS plug. Treat this like petrol station pumps, come back and ready to move the car as soon as gaining enough charge for your needs
(I said for your needs, majority of EV charging should be done at destination charger (aka home for most people))

Sounds like you've noticed destination chargers, so no need to vacate. The work one is difficult because an EV don't need to charge all day yet the car won't be moved all day. So if there's more EV needing to charge than chargers, it'd be ideal if people moved their car halfway through the working day. I'll be doing this when my work charger gets installed next few months.

neil_g said:
IKEA - 1 space of 900.
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The IKEA charger is a rapid charger, not really suitable for a car park (see above). But it'll allow people to charge up much quicker. The charger can be started once another car finishes charging (Chademo also unlocks), with 2 spaces, allowing another EV to plug in.
 
wuyanxu said:
There are 2 types of EV chargers:
- less than 22kW Destination charger, with a Type 2 socket, supply own cable. There shouldn't be any pressure to vacate or unplug because it's in a car park, at one's destination. Treat it like a car park.
- 50kW+ Rapid charger, cables supplied, either Chademo or CCS plug. Treat this like petrol station pumps, come back and ready to move the car as soon as gaining enough charge for your needs
(I said for your needs, majority of EV charging should be done at destination charger (aka home for most people))

Sounds like you've noticed destination chargers, so no need to vacate.
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Treat it like a car park but parking an EV in the space with no intention of charging the battery and depriving someone of the place isn't right.
What is the point in having destination charging points anyway if people aren't expected to vacate the space as soon as the charging is done. May as well let anyone park in the spaces.
 
nilagin said:
Treat it like a car park but parking an EV in the space with no intention of charging the battery and depriving someone of the place isn't right.
What is the point in having destination charging points anyway if people aren't expected to vacate the space as soon as the charging is done. May as well let anyone park in the spaces.
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Agree with first point. It's for charging. Treat it like a car park in the sense you don't have to vacate as soon as charging is finished.
The reason for not having to vacate is that (usually 7kW) AC charging takes a few hours, you can't be expected to time your life around the car's charging schedule. You arrive at a destination, plug in and start charging, then you come back to a fully charged car whenever you are ready to leave.

32 amps (1 phase get 7kW, 3 phase get 22kW) charging posts are not expensive to install, only a bit more than home chargers. There's not much hardware in there, more of a simple socket.
 
wuyanxu said:
Being in greater London, about half the houses don't use their car for commute. 1-2 cars per household seems to be normal around here.
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London has a pretty good transport infrastructure. I grew up in Enfield, if we went into town we used public transport, trains etc. Anything around the periphery we used cars.
Probably less need now as well with the rise of supermarket home deliveries
 
wuyanxu said:
There are 2 types of EV chargers:
- less than 22kW Destination charger, with a Type 2 socket, supply own cable. There shouldn't be any pressure to vacate or unplug because it's in a car park, at one's destination. Treat it like a car park.
- 50kW+ Rapid charger, cables supplied, either Chademo or CCS plug. Treat this like petrol station pumps, come back and ready to move the car as soon as gaining enough charge for your needs
(I said for your needs, majority of EV charging should be done at destination charger (aka home for most people))

Sounds like you've noticed destination chargers, so no need to vacate. The work one is difficult because an EV don't need to charge all day yet the car won't be moved all day. So if there's more EV needing to charge than chargers, it'd be ideal if people moved their car halfway through the working day. I'll be doing this when my work charger gets installed next few months.


The IKEA charger is a rapid charger, not really suitable for a car park (see above). But it'll allow people to charge up much quicker. The charger can be started once another car finishes charging (Chademo also unlocks), with 2 spaces, allowing another EV to plug in.
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On the rapid chargers, is there an app for the phone that tells you when it's full, so you can return to move it for others to use? If not that may also be a way forward until the infrastructure increases?
Although that does rely on good people. Maybe an additional charge for every 10 mins you're still connected but not charging? A lower rate for the first 80% charge then exponentially more expensive for the next 20%?
 
Byker28i said:
On the rapid chargers, is there an app for the phone that tells you when it's full, so you can return to move it for others to use? If not that may also be a way forward until the infrastructure increases?
Although that does rely on good people. Maybe an additional charge for every 10 mins you're still connected but not charging? A lower rate for the first 80% charge then exponentially more expensive for the next 20%?
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Depends on the car. Some are fully connected with an app but others aren't. A lot of the charging apps do have a way of telling you how much charge you have taken.

The lower capacity cars are usually full within 20-30 minutes. Eccotricity has the 45 minute cut off. Generally with rapids you are expected to stay close to the car and not wander off for hours.

Destination chargers (7kw or below) are different. You just park up, plug in and bog off and do whatever you were there to do then come back.
 
srichards said:
Depends on the car. Some are fully connected with an app but others aren't. A lot of the charging apps do have a way of telling you how much charge you have taken.

The lower capacity cars are usually full within 20-30 minutes. Eccotricity has the 45 minute cut off. Generally with rapids you are expected to stay close to the car and not wander off for hours.

Destination chargers (7kw or below) are different. You just park up, plug in and bog off and do whatever you were there to do then come back.
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I can see the rapid chargers working at say service stations, stop off, plug the car in, quick toilet stop and coffee and onto the next stop and charger. At the moment with human nature not in places like shopping centers, especially when there's only a few. Doesn't help much if you arrive needing a charge and there's none available - unless they put one charger in the middle of 4 spaces?
App doesn't need to be on the car but on the charging point - if we want people to move to free the space then we need an incentive to do it and the information available.

Slow chargers - yup fine, plug in and leave. Probably the same App could be interrogated to find a free charger at your destinations (say in a car park)
 
Byker28i said:
On the rapid chargers, is there an app for the phone that tells you when it's full, so you can return to move it for others to use? If not that may also be a way forward until the infrastructure increases?
Although that does rely on good people. Maybe an additional charge for every 10 mins you're still connected but not charging? A lower rate for the first 80% charge then exponentially more expensive for the next 20%?
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I personally think rapid chargers should be charged by minutes you use that spot in front of the charger via CCTV. This will also solve those ICE car drivers using it as parking spot.

Price change according to charging speed, for example:
current 50kW rapid: 20p/min of car parked at rapid spot => around 25p/kWh
future 150kW: 60p/min of car parked at the spot => around same 25p/kWh
future 350kW as proposed by Porsche: £1.40/min of parked at the spot

This way people will learn about battery charge tapering, where beyond 80% it becomes slower and slower to charge, all EV's at beyond 90-something% actually charges slower than 7kW destination charger speed. This means, as you have (rightly) suggested, the per kWh rate will increase exponentially until you come to move the car.
 
wuyanxu said:
The IKEA charger is a rapid charger, not really suitable for a car park (see above). But it'll allow people to charge up much quicker. The charger can be started once another car finishes charging (Chademo also unlocks), with 2 spaces, allowing another EV to plug in.
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Agreed its pointless. People get lost for days in ikea, it'll just clog up the space.
 
Does it need cctv?

A universal charging point that accepts all payment cards (similar to cashpoints take all bank cards), so it knows your account details. It knows the charging rate being delivered so charges accordingly and ramps up exponentially after 80% to then be truely extortionate after 100% charged. Thats the only way to stop people hogging charging points whilst the infrastructure is minimal?
That money could then be used by the companies to install further charges as it's a self driving revenue stream.

More infrastructure, more money coming in for the companies, makes ev more attractive to current ICE users because more points are available
 
I believe Tesla already charge an overstay fee on their super chargers. Not that I have ever seen more than one Tesla being charged at any one time, admittedly I don't visit service stations very often though so not the best to judge I guess.
 
Byker28i said:
Does it need cctv?

A universal charging point that accepts all payment cards (similar to cashpoints take all bank cards), so it knows your account details. It knows the charging rate being delivered so charges accordingly and ramps up exponentially after 80% to then be truely extortionate after 100% charged. Thats the only way to stop people hogging charging points whilst the infrastructure is minimal?
That money could then be used by the companies to install further charges as it's a self driving revenue stream.

More infrastructure, more money coming in for the companies, makes ev more attractive to current ICE users because more points are available
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How else would you combat those who don't plug in? (doesn't matter ICE car or EV)

Rapid charger are often located near entrance of a service station, many people see this as invitation to park there.
 
wuyanxu said:
many people see this as invitation to park there.
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I quite believe it, my local garage ( no chargers BTW) is also a convenience store, with parking for about 6 cars.
The pumps are closer to the store than the small car park, so people park at the pumps, but don't buy fuel, its usually mums on the school run :rolleyes:
 
Byker28i said:
Does it need cctv?

A universal charging point that accepts all payment cards (similar to cashpoints take all bank cards), so it knows your account details. It knows the charging rate being delivered so charges accordingly and ramps up exponentially after 80% to then be truely extortionate after 100% charged. Thats the only way to stop people hogging charging points whilst the infrastructure is minimal?
That money could then be used by the companies to install further charges as it's a self driving revenue stream.

More infrastructure, more money coming in for the companies, makes ev more attractive to current ICE users because more points are available
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But how does that work in the real world - for example, in my Waitrose I get no mobile signal at all in store so would not know when its up - how soon do you propose people be charged when going over... Maybe I could be on their Wi-Fi but guest Wi-Fi can go down, app fail etc... What if they are a 20 minute walk away (very easy in a large mall) or on the way back little Johnny decides he needs a poo?

Simple answer, allocate the top floor to EV cars only - barrier at the ramp, no. plate recognition, park there as long as needed. All spaces have points. Then as demand grows you do the floor below, then below that etc...
 
I was reading today about the Mercedes GLC F-Cell, which is a hybrid that uses a combination of battery and hydrogen fuel cell for a real-world range of 300 miles. This strikes me as much more sensible than pure electric in terms of functionality, however there are apparently just 13 hydrogen fueling stations in the UK.
 
ancient_mariner said:
I was reading today about the Mercedes GLC F-Cell, which is a hybrid that uses a combination of battery and hydrogen fuel cell for a real-world range of 300 miles. This strikes me as much more sensible than pure electric in terms of functionality, however there are apparently just 13 hydrogen fueling stations in the UK.
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Don't know about the GLC but I'm in a GLE350 at the moment and it's £63k of crap. The only decent thing about it is the sound deadening. You really do pay for the badge, God knows how it acquired such worth though.
 
I've never driven a Merc in my life, but this has to be enormously better than an electric-only vehicle with a short range and >5min refuelling time.
 
My favourite vehicle in my street is next door's 1941 US Army ambulance.
Great fun, if a tad slow. :)
 
cambsno said:
But how does that work in the real world - for example, in my Waitrose I get no mobile signal at all in store so would not know when its up - how soon do you propose people be charged when going over... Maybe I could be on their Wi-Fi but guest Wi-Fi can go down, app fail etc... What if they are a 20 minute walk away (very easy in a large mall) or on the way back little Johnny decides he needs a poo?

Simple answer, allocate the top floor to EV cars only - barrier at the ramp, no. plate recognition, park there as long as needed. All spaces have points. Then as demand grows you do the floor below, then below that etc...
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Good point on wifi signal - I was trying to think of solutions...

Interestingly I read yesterday an article in Car magazine about a journalist who had a leaf on eval. He flew out of heathrow so took the car, had an issue finding a charge point in terminal 1, apparently there are so few. The article mentioned very few charge points for such large car parks at Heathrow.
Whilst away he had a pop up notification on his phone that the car was charged but only 20% so had to select recharge. This happened 4 times...

So there is something there about notification and control, also about the lack of charge points. Quite interesting to find the article in the Car magazine after the discussions on here
 
ancient_mariner said:
I've never driven a Merc in my life, but this has to be enormously better than an electric-only vehicle with a short range and >5min refuelling time.
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Not for nipping down to town or the supermarket.
 
ancient_mariner said:
I've never bought a car just to nip to Tesco or into town, and I probably never will.
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and yet many second family cars do that in the market we think the EV is perfect for. The housewife looking after the young kids or doing the school run rarely needs much mileage and it would help clean up the environment in town.
 
Most importantly EV for school runs mean no more 3L Chelsea diesel tractors idling.


Came across this article on EV battery reuse and recycling: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/advice/happens-used-lithium-ion-battery-packs-electric-cars/
So, while there may be many and varied answers to the question of “where do used EV batteries go?”, ecological and economic good reason are unanimous on one thing: not into the ground.
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I personally think an EV battery pack (or part of) are perfect to hang on the exterior of homes. It's already built to withstand exterior temperatures. But the article seems to suggest EV battery are over engineered for stationary use, we should recycle the materials to build lesser batteries.
 
neil_g said:
Exactly. Recycling may be catching up slowly but the actual initial manufacturing extraction and process leave a lot to be desired environmentally and ethically.
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because digging oil up is really safe and good for the environment.

Your off your rocker if you actually think EVs will damage the environment more than oil ever has in its entire lifetime.

The Deepwater Horizon oil spill (also referred to as the BP oil spill, the BP oil disaster, the Gulf of Mexico oil spill, and the Macondo blowout) is an industrial disaster that began on 20 April 2010, in the Gulf of Mexico on the BP-operated Macondo Prospect, considered to be the largest marine oil spill in the history of the petroleum industry and ...


The full list

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_spills
 
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Mr Bump said:
because digging oil up is really safe and good for the environment.

The full list

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_spills
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Oil may be an environmentally disaster when something goes wrong but nature has a habit of repairing that damage relatively quickly, certainly when compared to a nuclear disaster and I dont think you'll get all the electricity you'll need to power EV (assuming huge take up) out of "safe" renewables.
 
MatBin said:
Oil may be an environmentally disaster when something goes wrong but nature has a habit of repairing that damage relatively quickly, certainly when compared to a nuclear disaster and I dont think you'll get all the electricity you'll need to power EV (assuming huge take up) out of "safe" renewables.
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Solar PV is considered safe is it not?

http://uk.businessinsider.com/map-shows-solar-panels-to-power-the-earth-2015-9?r=US&IR=T
skitchmap2.png
 
Byker28i said:
and yet many second family cars do that in the market we think the EV is perfect for. The housewife looking after the young kids or doing the school run rarely needs much mileage and it would help clean up the environment in town.
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Apparently people also buy cars capable of cross-country driving for doing just that too. Certainly if someone wants a car just for those things then an EV is quite suitable.
 
Mr Bump said:
because digging oil up is really safe and good for the environment.
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where did i say that exactly?

Your off your rocker if you actually think EVs will damage the environment more than oil ever has in its entire lifetime.
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depends if they keep dumping chemicals into the earth in the mining process or not..

point is, battery manufacture is not a magic bullet for global pollution.
 
wuyanxu said:
Solar PV is considered safe is it not?

http://uk.businessinsider.com/map-shows-solar-panels-to-power-the-earth-2015-9?r=US&IR=T
skitchmap2.png
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As is often the case, the energy needs to be transportable, which is why fossil fuels have remained dominant for so long, easily discovered, refined and transported relatively safely from one location to another.
I don't doubt for a moment we are coming to the end of fossil fuels, especially as that is exactly what I worked in until 2015 at which point the oil price plumetted and has since seen little gain in price, partly because consumers are now seeking alternative energy and it has become the equivalent of the drunk driver of energy production. But we still need massive amounts of energy, which if the population growth is not curbed will only increase along with the increased consumption of all of the Earth's resources which we are plundering. Swapping out perfectly good cars to buy "eco" friendly cars is a complete mistake, partly because of the use of raw materials to create the cars themselves but moreover the upstream production of these vehicles and I dont just mean the batteries.
We are creating new production lines, consuming vast amounts of resources in so doing, creating employment in parts of the world that have neither a sensitive eco policy or any form of birth control thereby increasing the human population way beyond what the Earth can cope with and all the time Western mature countries are applauding themselves for being eco-friendly, complete madness.
 
neil_g said:
where did i say that exactly?



depends if they keep dumping chemicals into the earth in the mining process or not..

point is, battery manufacture is not a magic bullet for global pollution.
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Quarrying, surprisingly, is actually one of the culprits of putting particles in the air.
 
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