Bloody idjit

Problem is with the snowflake society is the criminals that break the laws (they don't like) use the laws (that suit them). It takes 4-6 police to take down a so called 'hard man' while not injuring him and safeguarding themselves. This only gives the lawbreaker 'bragging rights' to pass on to his mates, 'It took 6 of them to arrest me' where in many cases 1 policeman could could, if allowed, at least equal him and two better him.

But where do you draw the line? At the moment it is too far on the lawbreakers side and back in the day (when all police cells were at the bottom of a flight of slippy stone stairs) the line was to far in favour of the police.

Personally in the video I don't think excessive force was used, one quick sweep and it was over. Looked to me like he was asking the police to taser him.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
I know, they're already moaning because the police used a drone to check for walkers on the moors flouting the lockdown...
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Like with speeders complaining the speed camera wasn't highly visible there are many that think it's unfair that the police have the right to catch them using similar means as they do to avoid being caught. Would they complain if drones were used and were instrumental in preventing their car being stolen or their house being robbed?
 
Dangerous said:
Like with speeders complaining the speed camera wasn't highly visible
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We've been painting ourselves into a corner with do-goodery for more than 100 years now. We have far too many, far too detailed laws and too many of those laws are used to make the lives of convicted criminals much too easy.

Perhaps it's time to clear away the dead wood of the criminal law and simplify both the charges and the punishments.
 
It's a nice thought but it'll never happen and possibly rightly so as there'll always be bad apples in the police and wider system and not so bad ones too who could be easily lead to go too far. The safeguards and limits therefore need to be there otherwise there'll be a level of abuse and miscarriage of justice.

At the moment the balance may well have arguably swung too far but I can't see any real prospect of any rebalancing short of us electing someone who at the moment I don't think most of us would want to see elected.
 
A phrase that I learned from Francis Schaeffer worth applying is "freedom is not license". No-one should be free to do whatever they might wish, unless what they wish is to do things that are for the good of others and themselves.

It seems that society had thought itself to have developed further than the present situation has revealed it to have done, despite the kindness, generosity, patience and self-control of many. As we've seen repeatedly in TP, individuals have a very wide range of things they might perceive as being good for others and themselves, therefore we require the law to be carefully crafted and intelligently applied.
 
Until the other day I felt I was following guideline in as much as no non-essential travel except for provisions and that exercise was allowed as it was essential for health. I was travelling 3 or 4 times to a local country park, approx, 2 miles each way then bt myself in the car to a secluded place where I was unlikely to see other people and if I did then I would be unlikely to be within 2 mtrs.

As I am in 2 vulnerable categories I though this was safest for me.

Now we are not allowed to drive to an area to exercise I have effectively been confined to the house as has the dog. This is because I feel that anywhere local to me puts me at too much risk due to the number of people I am likely to pass close to is greatly increased. I have no intentions of boycotting the rules but personally I can't see how 2 miles each way confined in the car puts me or anyone else at more rise than walking rounds the streets.

Let's hope that all the work do to improve my health isn't undone through this forced isolation. It seems that those how can employ common sense are lumped in with those who don't have any or won't use what the do.Even the medical assistance I need will be delayed for months.

Health issues have meant I have been mostly confined to the house for over 6 months up to now and I was just able to start going out again before all this started.
 
Dangerous said:
Until the other day I felt I was following guideline in as much as no non-essential travel except for provisions and that exercise was allowed as it was essential for health. I was travelling 3 or 4 times to a local country park, approx, 2 miles each way then bt myself in the car to a secluded place where I was unlikely to see other people and if I did then I would be unlikely to be within 2 mtrs.

As I am in 2 vulnerable categories I though this was safest for me.

Now we are not allowed to drive to an area to exercise I have effectively been confined to the house as has the dog. This is because I feel that anywhere local to me puts me at too much risk due to the number of people I am likely to pass close to is greatly increased. I have no intentions of boycotting the rules but personally I can't see how 2 miles each way confined in the car puts me or anyone else at more rise than walking rounds the streets.

Let's hope that all the work do to improve my health isn't undone through this forced isolation. It seems that those how can employ common sense are lumped in with those who don't have any or won't use what the do.Even the medical assistance I need will be delayed for months.

Health issues have meant I have been mostly confined to the house for over 6 months up to now and I was just able to start going out again before all this started.
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Yes that’s how I feel too
I completely understand the need for the keeping away from people but I would rather be able to drive somewhere to go for a walk somewhere isolated and have far less chance of encountering anyone than walking around the local streets
But what’s happened is that some people not using common sense has forced the authorities to bring in those rules which I will stick to but it’s frustrating
 
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Dangerous said:
Until the other day I felt I was following guideline in as much as no non-essential travel except for provisions and that exercise was allowed as it was essential for health. I was travelling 3 or 4 times to a local country park, approx, 2 miles each way then bt myself in the car to a secluded place where I was unlikely to see other people and if I did then I would be unlikely to be within 2 mtrs.

As I am in 2 vulnerable categories I though this was safest for me.

Now we are not allowed to drive to an area to exercise I have effectively been confined to the house as has the dog. This is because I feel that anywhere local to me puts me at too much risk due to the number of people I am likely to pass close to is greatly increased. I have no intentions of boycotting the rules but personally I can't see how 2 miles each way confined in the car puts me or anyone else at more rise than walking rounds the streets.

Let's hope that all the work do to improve my health isn't undone through this forced isolation. It seems that those how can employ common sense are lumped in with those who don't have any or won't use what the do.Even the medical assistance I need will be delayed for months.

Health issues have meant I have been mostly confined to the house for over 6 months up to now and I was just able to start going out again before all this started.
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The problem lies in That 2 mile each way drive ,you could possibly have a breakdown,puncture or accident which will then involve others coming to your aid and putting you or them at risk .. or you could be stopped by the police and again either you or them is in danger of cross contamination . We are all in the same scary boat so best to comply as much as it’s a pain in the arse
 
I'm pretty sure *in the circumstances* that driving 2 miles each way in order to exercise in a place that's well away from others is within the spirit of the regulation. The 'no drive' thing is about stopping people driving from Devon to the Peak District to 'enjoy a walk', when there's pleanty of places to exercise locally.
 
the black fox said:
The problem lies in That 2 mile each way drive ,you could possibly have a breakdown,puncture or accident which will then involve others coming to your aid and putting you or them at risk .. or you could be stopped by the police and again either you or them is in danger of cross contamination . We are all in the same scary boat so best to comply as much as it’s a pain in the arse
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I could trip on the kerb, get knocked down, which would also involve others coming to help me. I could stay at home and fall down the stairs, cut myself making dinner, there could be a gas explosion. The things that could happen whatever I did are many. I could just stay in bed safe, until I needed to go the toilet and break my back getting up (yes, that did happen to someone in the same hospital ward as a friend who broke his neck).

I am complying, but unlike those that will walk locally near to where others are walking locally I am not prepared to take that risk.
 
Your still not getting it are you ,you want to bend the rules to suit yourself and your needs ,trouble you are not the Only one there are now vast swathes of the population who think it’s just my problem so I’ll do what I want it wont hurt .
Get this in your head stay home means stay home
wake up and smell the crematorium
 
the black fox said:
Your still not getting it are you ,you want to bend the rules to suit yourself and your needs ,trouble you are not the Only one there are now vast swathes of the population who think it’s just my problem so I’ll do what I want it wont hurt .
Get this in your head stay home means stay home
wake up and smell the crematorium
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You are the one not getting it, I am complying. I have not said I want to bend the rules to suit myself. I have said that the rules have created a situation where I can't get the exercise I need to help improve my health without the increased risk following the rules would put me in.

Get this in to your head, I am staying in the house well away from those that are allowed out and may be infected and pass it on to me. The legislation was introduced to stop those that ignored the guidelines. I was following guidelines issued in other countries long before they were issued by the UK, Were you?
 
nog said:
Locals not giving visitors much of a welcome in North Wales(y), road blocked and visitor - just popped down from Sheffield :banghead: called police as he felt threatened

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/snowdonia-visitor-blocked-angry-locals-18000081
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Many ways of looking at this, the locals should mind their own business perhaps? Did they own the land? He's a guy out for a drive sight seeing, or am I missing something? He was a bit melodramatic calling the cops perhaps? but then the local guy said if the visitor hadn't , he would have .... I think these 'lock down' obsessive people are highly f'ing irritating tbh - you're not suddenly the law because there's a pandemic, stay at home indoors and mind your own if it's so important to you.
 
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the black fox said:
The problem lies in That 2 mile each way drive ,you could possibly have a breakdown,puncture or accident which will then involve others coming to your aid and putting you or them at risk .. or you could be stopped by the police and again either you or them is in danger of cross contamination . We are all in the same scary boat so best to comply as much as it’s a pain in the arse
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Good point actually
 
Cagey75 said:
Many ways of looking at this, the locals should mind their own business perhaps? Did they own the land? He's a guy out for a drive sight seeing, or am I missing something? He was a bit melodramatic calling the cops perhaps? but then the local guy said if the visitor hadn't , he would have .... I think these 'lock down' obsessive people are highly f'ing irritating tbh - you're not suddenly the law because there's a pandemic, stay at home indoors and mind your own if it's so important to you.
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The problem being that our NHS infrastructure is geared around the median population density. The Police are now turning "visitors" away at the border. All bets are off just now...

GC
 
Cagey75 said:
He's a guy out for a drive sight seeing, or am I missing something?
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Don't think many people go sightseeing towing a trailer, watch the video

The incident took place on Saturday morning on a narrow lane near Bala after locals spotted a Range Rover and trailer in the area
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I think stating that people could go out for a daily walk, run or cycle was one of the worst decisions the government could have made. From what I can see, a lot of people have taken this to mean that it's expected for them to do so! They're wandering around like they're on a bank holiday break, toddling into the local shop on their way to buy sweets for the kids they have with them, etc.!

For goodness sake, it's supposed to be a lock-down to stop the spread of a deadly virus, not a minor inconvenience or something to decide to opt out of if you don't like being told what to do!

Just what does it take for people to realise this is serious? Perhaps if it killed children rather than the elderly and vulnerable? Never mind, the figures are starting to accelerate now, over 1,000 dead today. Get it straight, each time you leave the house - for any reason - you risk contracting and/or spreading this disease.... how many of the next ones to die might be your fault?
 
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Gremlin said:
Don't think many people go sightseeing towing a trailer, watch the video
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Trailer looks like a camping trailer? No idea what he was doing up there, but I'm not the ne stopping him, I'd have asked him nicely 'what are you doing up here with a trailer?' he may have a legit answer, do we know the answer?
 
gcgraphs said:
The problem being that our NHS infrastructure is geared around the median population density. The Police are now turning "visitors" away at the border. All bets are off just now...

GC
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The Police, yes, leave it to them.

I'm tired of the 'Lock down' brigade in general, everyone is suddenly the law - and lecturing others on what they should and shouldn't do. What I see in this video is locals shouting at someone for just being there, unless they suspect him of stealing cattle or something with his little trailer then it's really none of their business

You have to ask yourself this - if you're walking down a country lane, for a break from all of this, and you're suddenly pounced upon by a couple locals shouting and screaming at you, are you going to be happy about it?

I must add, that even as a wild Irishman, I had to run it a couple times before I could tell it wasn't a foreign language :D - felt very League of gentlemen too, without video evidence I'm feeling "We didn't burn him!" potentials
 
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Hold on one of our members phoned me in the week his wife works at one of the three main hospitals in north wales ,that’s right only three to cover a vast area . The message passed on to me was that last weekend in the a and e dept there were 35 people waiting and 34 of them were visitors /day trippers no wonder tempers are getting frayed
 
I live in an over 55 estate, most of the residents are over 70, there are only 3 of us, including the warden are younger.
The older ones aren't complaining, they are protecting themselves by self isolating and getting either the local help
group or us younger ones to help them when they need it, even if it's just a chat over the phone.
Surely it's up to people to protect themselves, I would prefer not to have to walk through the streets to get out fro fresh air,
and exercise, which is important as the health service themselves have been telling us for years, yes there are risks, so are there in everything we do.
Not everyone is lucky enough to open spaces on their doorstep, I used to but moved for easy access to the shops without having to drive
 
the black fox said:
Hold on one of our members phoned me in the week his wife works at one of the three main hospitals in north wales ,that’s right only three to cover a vast area . The message passed on to me was that last weekend in the a and e dept there were 35 people waiting and 34 of them were visitors /day trippers no wonder tempers are getting frayed
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What's that got to do with some random guy on his own in his car in the middle of no man's land? it's not like he had a gaggle of kids in his car. If he's guilty of something, I'd love to know what - but this guilty and shame nonsense from 'do-gooder' Joe public is never going to turn out pretty if it keeps up
 
the black fox said:
34 of them were visitors /day trippers no wonder tempers are getting frayed
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Not at all, I can't understand the need to drive miles to get out of the way, I have loads of places within a few miles from home
about 10 mins drive
 
Cagey75 said:
I'm tired of the 'Lock down' brigade in general, everyone is suddenly the law
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It is a fundamental principle of British law enforcement that everyone is "the law" and that everyone is obliged not only to obey the laws but also to enforce them.

When Robert Peel published his "Principles of Law Enforcement" in 1829, which is the basic foundation of British policing, he made this point in Principle 7: "the police are the public and the public are the police". You can read the full text here: https://www.durham.police.uk/About-Us/Documents/Peels_Principles_Of_Law_Enforcement.pdf

Police in discussion Exeter Road Exmouth P1130332.JPG
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
It is a fundamental principle of British law enforcement that everyone is "the law" and that everyone is obliged not only to obey the laws but also to enforce them.

When Robert Peel published his "Principles of Law Enforcement" in 1829, which is the basic foundation of British policing, he made this point in Principle 7: "the police are the public and the public are the police". You can read the full text here: https://www.durham.police.uk/About-Us/Documents/Peels_Principles_Of_Law_Enforcement.pdf

View attachment 273353
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Might be the reason for such difference between the Irish and British, over here those people would just be labelled nosey c**ts - you're either a copper, or you're not.

It's fine to report suspicions, but aggressively confronting someone who's not really clearly guilty of anything, is wrong. No matter how you like to swing it.

Picture yourself as the guy in that car - [hypothetically] you were already self isolating, you like to camp out alone maybe [hence the trailer - looks very much a camping trailer] - you see potential in this slip road, away from 99.99% of civilization ... drive up for a peek - here comes the f'ing local do-goo cavalry, shouting at you like you're some P**** just pulled into a kid's playground with your bits hanging out. I see over reaction, and the tone they put across ... not surprised he was calling the cops, he was s***ting himself by looks of it - bit deliverance vibe about it all
 
O.k I have now watched the video that’s definetly a camping trailer ,probably a home made one but gas bottle on front gives it away , there are NO campsites open in north wales at this moment in time , the guy has come from Sheffield so probably using Facebook to avoid police roadblocks on the main routes in but there are back roads to do that. .
The area around lake Bala is huge and thinly policed so good on the local populace to take it into there own hands . I would also say this guy has probably visited before to be driving down a lane with that rig . Plus after last weekend when thousands of trippers decided on a jolly boys outing the tensions and feelings of the local populace have risen . Don’t know what the outcome of this was but I bet the police told him to get back to Sheffield ASAP
 
Cagey75 said:
Many ways of looking at this, the locals should mind their own business perhaps? Did they own the land? He's a guy out for a drive sight seeing, or am I missing something? He was a bit melodramatic calling the cops perhaps? but then the local guy said if the visitor hadn't , he would have .... I think these 'lock down' obsessive people are highly f'ing irritating tbh - you're not suddenly the law because there's a pandemic, stay at home indoors and mind your own if it's so important to you.
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As often happens, parliament enacts legislation then others attempt to impose their own version of it.
The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020
were enacted on 26 March. These Regulations and only these regulations ARE the law.

Restrictions on movement are here:-
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/6/made

They do not specify a limit on the number of times per day people may exercise. (How did this well publicised once per day incorrect version of the law appear)
They mention "travel" but do not define the mode.
There is nothing to say that "travelling" to a walk is prohibited.

Problems always surface when people / police etc. opt to tell people that they must do things that are not the law.
 
Cagey75 said:
Might be the reason for such difference between the Irish and British, ... you're either a copper, or you're not.
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An Garda Síochána traces its roots back (with some pride, it appears) to The Peace Preservation Force set up in 1816 by none other than Robert Peel when he was Chief Secretary for Ireland https://www.garda.ie/en/About-Us/Our-History/

The County Constabulary was formed in 1822 and replaced in 1836 by two separate forces: the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police. These two forces were replaced by the Civic Guard in 1921, which was renamed as the Garda Síochána na hÉireann in 1923.

There has never been an appetite for semi-military policing (such as the various European gendarmeries) anywhere in the British Isles and so I imagine that Peel's principles apply as much in the Republic as elsewhere.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I followed that link expecting to find half a page of clear instructions. What I found instead was page after page of verbiage.

I'm not surprised that everyone is confused and has different ideas on what they are supposed to do or not do. :(
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Restrictions on movement? Doesn't seem there is that much to grasp?
 
And, us in Cornwall, have the Daft t***s that came down here to get away from it, FFS we don`t want you this year.

Come back when this is over .
 
I really cant understand the reactions/posts of some forum members , this is not a bloody joke ,its real its a silent unseen killer and if we have to USE OUR COMMON SENSE and stay indoors to defeat it then simply comply .. I read a while back that one of the reasons that a full lockdown was not implemented sooner was the attitude towards freedom of movement of the u.k public .if it had been done sooner I wonder how many lives would have been saved . personally I have three members of close family that are on the extreme danger list and on 12 week isolation order I wouldn't like to think that any one of them would die because Fred Bloggs fancied a trip to the woods or beach to take some pictures .walk the dog.fly a kite etc etc
its a problem but its everyones problem ,no one is immune so please ....put up or shut up
 
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arclight said:
Problems always surface when people / police etc. opt to tell people that they must do things that are not the law.
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Regardless, there are reasons why increasing the number of cars on the road at this time is a bad idea if this "unnecessarily" adds to the risks of spreading the virus that might otherwise have been avoided e.g:

Increased visits to petrol stations, increased risk of contact

Increased risks of road traffic accidents, with increased risks of contact, increased pressure on health services. And you might just have an accident with an ICU doctor on their way to work, or some other key worker.

Increased congestion for emergency vehicles to negotiate.

Car break down needing to call out car rescue services, increasing risk of contact

Risks of attempted car break-in leaving car door handle contaminated.

Increased pressure on ambulance/rescue services if called out to more distant casualties.

All low risk I admit, but when avoiding contact is so important and with high estimates of the percentage of people with the virus, but without symptoms, there are going to be a lot of people out there who are able to infect you, or for you to infect.

Until we get some case law on the regulations it's enforcement is going to rely on government and police interpretation of what is required (as do all acts and regulations).

Personally, regardless of the law, I think we should be doing everything possible to minimise the risks, even low ones, and if there is any way we can avoid getting in our cars and driving somewhere we should take it.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I followed that link expecting to find half a page of clear instructions. What I found instead was page after page of verbiage.

I'm not surprised that everyone is confused and has different ideas on what they are supposed to do or not do. :(
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Most people rely on Government guidance on how acts and regulations should be interpreted and implemented.

I have been told that Acts and Regulations cannot be written in a clear and unambiguous way, as they cannot anticipate "every" situation and the assumption is that aspects will be challenged in courts and a body of case law will develop over time to refine meaning, interpretation and implementation.

The act/regulation may sometimes be changed through new or amended legislation but often it's only the guidance that changes, citing the case law as the reason. at least that has been my experience with environmental law.

Given the constantly moving goalposts of this situation, and the rush that the legislation went through, I'm guessing the purpose of this legislation is primarily to make sure "any" guidance/instructions the government gives is also 'legal" so I would expect this Act to be even more ambiguous than most.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I followed that link expecting to find half a page of clear instructions. What I found instead was page after page of verbiage.

I'm not surprised that everyone is confused and has different ideas on what they are supposed to do or not do. :(
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It is one thing to be confused about what to do, but faced with confusion (and certainly not everyone is confused) it is certainly not sensible to attempt to direct others. Nevertheless, it is never permissible for any organisation to set about presenting their version of movement restrictions as being required by law when it clearly is not the case.
 
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