Advice regarding coronavirus wage subsidy

scottduffy

scottduffy

Messages
3,347
Name
Scott
Edit My Images
Yes
Hi Guys,

Just on the off chance that someone knows how this 80% subsidy works I'll ask this here. I have worked for an employment agency for over a year and during that time i have been working for the one company full time 40 hours a week. Today i was called to say the company were closing as per the government's guidance. My agency are confident i will be able to recoup 80% of my wages through this subsidy but they are waiting for word from someone and said it could take a while. I have googled this and tried to find anything which mentions workers in my situation but can't find anything. Does anyone here know a bit about this?
 
Well, there is nothing of note on the gov.uk site....... where one might expect it to be covered :(

https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus

Without wanting to know anything of your circumstances.

Just who pays your wages.....the employment company or the company you were 'placed' at........a rhetorical question!

But if it is the employment company with whom you have an employment contract
.... surely it is down to them to address the question and show the way as soon as the Government get their act together and announce the process. I was under the impression that the subsidy monies would the like a form of reverse PAYE i.e. the employer claims it for topping up the much reduced pay from the employer???
 
Last edited:
My wages are paid by the employment agency and i accrue holidays etc with them also. I would have thought it would have been them who merely had to claim for me but they are unsure. Hopefully I'll find out soon as without that and my communion bookings being cancelled it will be a dry few months. My wife is on the at risk list due to her suffering from a heart condition so the delivery jobs that are being advertised are way too risky.
Box Brownie said:
Well, there is nothing of note on the gov.uk site....... where one might expect it to be covered :(

https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus

Without wanting to know anything of your circumstances.

Just who pays your wages.....the employment company or the company you were 'placed' at........a rhetorical question!

But if it is the employment company with whom you have an employment contract
.... surely it is down to them to address the question and show the way as soon as the Government get their act together and announce the process. I was under the impression that the subsidy monies would the like a form of reverse PAYE i.e. the employer claims it for topping up the much reduced pay from the employer???
Click to expand...
 
sounds like you are an agency worker, so if you are being laid off then you will have to go on the UC universal credit, essentially sick pay.
the 80% scheme applies if you are being furloughed by your employer which I don't think applies.
there is some guidance coming out for self employed soon, personally I would speak to an accountant not google.
 
When the chancellor announced this measure he said hmrc will have it up and running in time for first (not all!) payments to be made to employers at the end of April. That is quick for a system of this scale but feels incredibly slow for those at the sharp end,

I have yet to see any firm government information on how it will work and have been looking hard for my team at work, but there is lots of speculation from HR advisors trying to justify their fees.

I think it will sadly just be a case of hold tight for a little while longer until more instruction comes out, rather than speculation.
 
Just a wee update regarding possible good news. This has gone up on Gov.uk website and seems to cover me.




Both you and your employer must agree to put you on furlough - so speak to your employer about whether they can claim. You cannot apply for the scheme yourself. Once agreed your employer must write to you confirming you have been furloughed to be eligible to claim.

Any UK employer with a UK bank account will be able to claim, but you must have been on your employer’s PAYE payroll on 28 February 2020. You can be on any type of contract, including a zero-hour contract or a temporary contract.

This scheme does not apply if you are self-employed or to any income from self-employment.

If you’re on sick leave or self-isolating because of coronavirus (COVID-19), speak to your employer about whether you’re eligible - you should get Statutory Sick Pay (SSP) while you are on sick leave or self-isolating, but can be furloughed after this.

If you are shielding in line with public health guidance, then you should speak to your employer about whether they plan to place staff on furlough.

The grant will start on the day you were placed on furlough and this can be backdated to 1 March.
 
You sound like you are employed via the agency, do you get a wage slip, do they pay your tax and ni deductions do you have a contract? It all boils down potentially to what you signed and agreed. If you an employee it is for them to claim assuming they furlough you, Ultimately take proper legal advice, this is not the place to get the correct answers :)
 
Last edited:
I know it's not mate. I was just providing an update since i asked the question. Yes i do get wage slips via the agency, pay tax, NI etc. I'm waiting to hear from them now as i messaged the payroll dept yesterday.
 
Your employer is the agency so if they decide to furlong you you should be able to get the 80%. However the contracts with these agencies are usually one sided so without an end customer you may be in a difficult position. Professional advice is required but perhaps wait until there is more guidance available. I wish you well.
 
I have furloughed myself as a company director of my own company.
I will take a few months off and get reimbursed 80% of my salary but it will not be paid until June apparently.
I am just waiting for the hmrc to launch the JRS portal so I can log all my details.
 
I've been working from home for the past week and spoke to our MD on Friday afternoon and agreed to being put on furlough from the end of this month. Our major customers in Germany, China, Spain and Italy have all closed their factories down so the orders have dried up and they aren't taking delivery of the work we currently have in progress. We are effectively shutting down too until they come back on stream.

I received my furlough notification letter today so I am officially "not working" from 17:30 tomorrow for 3 months - can't quite decide how I should feel about it all.
 
I was told today that despite us qualifying for the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme we are not being placed on it. No reasons. Really p***ed off now thinking that this shower have made money off my hard work for over a year and when i needed them they couldn't give a toss. Poor show.
 
i have been involved with booking agency staff round here for 15+ years. Most of the agency’s make less than £1 an hour* on a temp, as it’s a competitive marketplace here in Oxfordshire. I would doubt they have the cash surplus in place to run the scheme for a few weeks even if they wanted too. Their credit controllers are consistently amongst the most prompt as invoices fall due which is always a telling sign.

doesn't help you though.


(*when you calculate hourly, employers NI and pension).
 
Mr Bump said:
I have furloughed myself as a company director of my own company.
I will take a few months off and get reimbursed 80% of my salary but it will not be paid until June apparently.
I am just waiting for the hmrc to launch the JRS portal so I can log all my details.
Click to expand...
As I recall don't you pay yourself minimum wage?
 
Mozthecat said:
i have been involved with booking agency staff round here for 15+ years. Most of the agency’s make less than £1 an hour* on a temp, as it’s a competitive marketplace here in Oxfordshire. I would doubt they have the cash surplus in place to run the scheme for a few weeks even if they wanted too. Their credit controllers are consistently amongst the most prompt as invoices fall due which is always a telling sign.

doesn't help you though.


(*when you calculate hourly, employers NI and pension).
Click to expand...
Presumably they would qualify for a loan which would enable them to pay their "staff" until the Govt money comes through?
 
MatBin said:
As I recall don't you pay yourself minimum wage?
Click to expand...


He probably gave himself and his fellow directors HUGE raises just before they were furloughed.
 
scottduffy said:
I was told today that despite us qualifying for the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme we are not being placed on it. No reasons. Really p***ed off now thinking that this shower have made money off my hard work for over a year and when i needed them they couldn't give a toss. Poor show.
Click to expand...

are you on PAYE salary? is so you should be eligible.
how are you paid?
 
MatBin said:
As I recall don't you pay yourself minimum wage?
Click to expand...

I don't pay myself minimum wage, I used to last year I was paying about £9k a year but I upped it to £14k a year (the resto goes to pension).
so i can claim 80% of my salary once the scheme is up and running :)
 
Mr Bump said:
I don't pay myself minimum wage, I used to last year I was paying about £9k a year but I upped it to £14k a year (the resto goes to pension).
so i can claim 80% of my salary once the scheme is up and running :)
Click to expand...
Depends on how much gross profit you made, any more than £50k and you'll get nothing. So, that's before salary, dividends and pension taken out of Company accounts.
 
MatBin said:
Depends on how much gross profit you made, any more than £50k and you'll get nothing. So, that's before salary, dividends and pension taken out of Company accounts.
Click to expand...

nope completely wrongo, I am not self employed, I am PAYE via my own ltd company, so there
 
MatBin said:
Depends on how much gross profit you made, any more than £50k and you'll get nothing. So, that's before salary, dividends and pension taken out of Company accounts.
Click to expand...

Not sure this is correct. CJRS can apply to directors who are employees so the £50k limit does not apply.
 
Mr Bump said:
nope completely wrongo, I am not self employed, I am PAYE via my own ltd company, so there
Click to expand...
As am I but I think you'll find there are different rules for one man band Ltd Cos. The question has been raised but so far no answer has been given. If it goes to case law to show a director was an employee then a written contract might need to be in existence showing a true employee relationship, that in turn might highlight to HMRC that certain expenses etc should not have been allowed.
Tbh I think you'll open up something you wouldn't want opened up unless you are absolutely sure an investigation would leave you clear as far as tax/NI position is water tight.
 
Last edited:
Brentor said:
Not sure this is correct. CJRS can apply to directors who are employees so the £50k limit does not apply.
Click to expand...


correct

Company Directors

As office holders, salaried company directors are eligible to be furloughed and receive support through this scheme. Company directors owe duties to their company which are set out in the Companies Act 2006. Where a company (acting through its board of directors) considers that it is in compliance with the statutory duties of one or more of its individual salaried directors, the board can decide that such directors should be furloughed. Where one or more individual directors’ furlough is so decided by the board, this should be formally adopted as a decision of the company, noted in the company records and communicated in writing to the director(s) concerned.


Where furloughed directors need to carry out particular duties to fulfil the statutory obligations they owe to their company, they may do so provided they do no more than would reasonably be judged necessary for that purpose, for instance, they should not do work of a kind they would carry out in normal circumstances to generate commercial revenue or provides services to or on behalf of their company.


This also applies to salaried individuals who are directors of their own personal service company (PSC).
 
Thar
Mr Bump said:
correct

Company Directors

As office holders, salaried company directors are eligible to be furloughed and receive support through this scheme. Company directors owe duties to their company which are set out in the Companies Act 2006. Where a company (acting through its board of directors) considers that it is in compliance with the statutory duties of one or more of its individual salaried directors, the board can decide that such directors should be furloughed. Where one or more individual directors’ furlough is so decided by the board, this should be formally adopted as a decision of the company, noted in the company records and communicated in writing to the director(s) concerned.


Where furloughed directors need to carry out particular duties to fulfil the statutory obligations they owe to their company, they may do so provided they do no more than would reasonably be judged necessary for that purpose, for instance, they should not do work of a kind they would carry out in normal circumstances to generate commercial revenue or provides services to or on behalf of their company.


This also applies to salaried individuals who are directors of their own personal service company (PSC).
Click to expand...
That's not the full article
https://www.bishopfleming.co.uk/ins...tion-scheme-can-directors-furlough-themselves
 
Last edited:
Yes mate and have been for over a year. I DO qualify but they still refuse to place me on the scheme. That's my biggest gripe.
Mr Bump said:
are you on PAYE salary? is so you should be eligible.
how are you paid?
Click to expand...
 
scottduffy said:
Yes mate and have been for over a year. I DO qualify but they still refuse to place me on the scheme. That's my biggest gripe.
Click to expand...
One man Company?
 
No i work for a fascia and soffit provider delivering to sites but via an agency. It's Driver Hire who paye me via paye and this happens weekly. I accrue holidays etc with Driver Hire and they are my employers.
MatBin said:
One man Company?
Click to expand...
 
No pay at all. Just told me there's no work and advised me to claim Universal Credit even though they could place me on furlough. They are refusing to do it.
Brentor said:
So are they proposing to keep paying you? Have they made you redundant?
Click to expand...
 
MatBin said:
As am I but I think you'll find there are different rules for one man band Ltd Cos. The question has been raised but so far no answer has been given. If it goes to case law to show a director was an employee then a written contract might need to be in existence showing a true employee relationship, that in turn might highlight to HMRC that certain expenses etc should not have been allowed.
Tbh I think you'll open up something you wouldn't want opened up unless you are absolutely sure an investigation would leave you clear as far as tax/NI position is water tight.
Click to expand...

There's no different rules. If you're a LTD company with sole directorship you can furlough yourself on 80% of PAYE. Capped at £2500 per month.

Whereas self employed get zero if earnings above £50K
 
scottduffy said:
No pay at all. Just told me there's no work and advised me to claim Universal Credit even though they could place me on furlough. They are refusing to do it.
Click to expand...

the problem with placing a person on furlough is the company still has to pay you while they wait for the HMRC to sort out the JRS portal which still isn't active and personally I don't expect it to be active until end April, given the speed of how they work I don't expect companies to receive any pennies until late May.

so basically they are not wanting to front your salary on the off chance they should get the money back, a fair few companies are behaving that way as they don't have faith in the HMRC coffing up, can you blame them?

personally I have large cash reserves in my ltd company so I can keep paying myself and hopefully the HMRC will pay me out my 80% but if they don't hey ho.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
There's no different rules. If you're a LTD company with sole directorship you can furlough yourself on 80% of PAYE. Capped at £2500 per month.

Whereas self employed get zero if earnings above £50K
Click to expand...
Andy if you go to the article I linked to you will see that it's not clear cut at all. A single employee type Ltd Co will need to prove the employee status via an existing contract etc. My view is that HMRC having the view that single employee Ltd Co are nothing more than disguised employees able to claim they behave like self employed and therefore take advantage of certain tax legislation to lower their overall tax/NI burden will not receive a favourable decision when they answer the question raised regarding furlough position and govt payments.
Call me cynical but I have been in this position before with an Insurance co regarding a policy that should have paid out when I had no work and also when destitute I tried to claim unemployment benefits, in both cases because I had a significant controlling interest in the running of the Co they regarded me as self employed and applied their rules accordingly, I don't see any difference this time, I guess time will tell.
 
MatBin said:
Andy if you go to the article I linked to you will see that it's not clear cut at all. A single employee type Ltd Co will need to prove the employee status via an existing contract etc. My view is that HMRC having the view that single employee Ltd Co are nothing more than disguised employees able to claim they behave like self employed and therefore take advantage of certain tax legislation to lower their overall tax/NI burden will not receive a favourable decision when they answer the question raised regarding furlough position and govt payments.
Call me cynical but I have been in this position before with an Insurance co regarding a policy that should have paid out when I had no work and also when destitute I tried to claim unemployment benefits, in both cases because I had a significant controlling interest in the running of the Co they regarded me as self employed and applied their rules accordingly, I don't see any difference this time, I guess time will tell.
Click to expand...

The rules aren't different then, they're the same for any other PAYE employee. They've already confirmed that if you're a Ltd company then you're an employee, not self employed.

Yes there are hoops to jump through, but there's also limitations on the Self Employed scheme. If you were to apply the same limitations to an Ltd, then if the pre-salary company profit was over £50k you'd get zero help. Whereas if you're on a salary of over £50K you'll get £2500 per month help.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
They've already confirmed that if you're a Ltd company then you're an employee.
Click to expand...


That's not correct, for LTD companies you must have registered on the PAYE system, lots of single director companies don't. as such will not be eligible for this scheme
 
Last edited:
MatBin said:
Andy if you go to the article I linked to you will see that it's not clear cut at all.
Click to expand...

That is the problem. The rules of the scheme are not clear particularly around the edges. Several directors are on a salary hence PAYE and also receive dividends which do not go through the PAYE system. Hopefully it will become clearer when HMRC issues more guidance.
 
Studio488commercial said:
That's not correct, for LTD companies you must have registered on the PAYE system, lots of single director companies don't. as such will not be eligible for this scheme
Click to expand...

You're still not self employed though are you? And you've selectively quoted me to make me appear wrong, missing out "they're the same for any other PAYE employee.".

And in fact, they are eligible for the scheme. It's just that 80% of £0 salary is £0.

Anyway, they updated the advice over the weekend.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-for-wage-costs-through-the-coronavirus-job-retention-scheme
 
Last edited by a moderator:
lots of positive info, my accountant sees now issues he thinks if the HMRC hold back on not paying PAYE claims for directors and PSCs then they will see a revolt.
I am confident I should get my 80% back :)
 
KitsuneAndy said:
They've already confirmed that if you're a Ltd company then you're an employee.
Click to expand...
KitsuneAndy said:
You're still not self employed though are you? And you've selectively quoted me to make me appear wrong, missing out "they're the same for any other PAYE employee.".

And in fact, they are eligible for the scheme. It's just that 80% of £0 salary is £0.

Anyway, they updated the advice over the weekend.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-for-wage-costs-through-the-coronavirus-job-retention-scheme
Click to expand...

KitsuneAndy said:
The rules aren't different then, they're the same for any other PAYE employee. They've already confirmed that if you're a Ltd company then you're an employee, not self employed.

Yes there are hoops to jump through, but there's also limitations on the Self Employed scheme. If you were to apply the same limitations to an Ltd, then if the pre-salary company profit was over £50k you'd get zero help. Whereas if you're on a salary of over £50K you'll get £2500 per month help.
Click to expand...


I was not selective at all simply pointing out that just because you have a limited company you are not automatically an employee which is what you said. To make a claim on this scheme, you must be paid via PAYE and have been furloughed (or be self employed and be eligible under the conditions set out)

So my point stands that a sole director or directors of a Ltd company who are NOT paid via PAYE are not allowed to claim under the JRS




As well as employees, the grant can be claimed for any of the following groups, if they are paid via PAYE:

  • office holders (including company directors)
  • salaried members of Limited Liability Partnerships (LLPs)
  • agency workers (including those employed by umbrella companies)
  • limb (b) workers
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top