The plinth of controversy.

gramps said:
Sometimes a news reporters lot can be a lonely one. :)
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Especially when you turn up to an "opportunity", to discover there's no-one else there beside you and the cameraman. :naughty:

Reporter with cameraman Exeter E-PL5 P6050018.JPG
 
Norkie said:
You cannot ‘whitewash’ the past.

We just need to learn from it.
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<RantMode>
Couldn't agree more. History happened. Some of it was horrendous and only shows the depths to which we as human beings can sink. It's not what we've done, no-one can change that, but it's how we move on and make the world a better place, for all ethnicities.

We get it. Back in the day, people of colour, were enslaved & exploited by unscrupulous traders and people of the time who did not know any better and were people of the day. That's not to say they were right in any way or form. It should never have happened. But what about through all of history, people have been made slaves of, those that for whatever reason were seen as weaker were enslaved by others who, at that time, had the upper hand. Should we go around ripping down statues of roman leaders, Greek scholars. Tear down the pyramids even. Imagine the slavery that went into building them?

Tearing statues down, and otherwise defacing structures just because one group, or another, doesn't agree with what they stand for is not the answer. Next thing we know they'll be ripping down the statue of Churchill because he sent 100's of thousands of men and women to their deaths during WWII.

What next? Are they going to go through all of the history books and scrub out the names of the bad people, then right in their place about how sweet and rosy everything was back then. This part of history was a wonderful and exciting place for all, because society hundreds or thousands of years later has changed and deemed it unsuitable? Where will the young people learn then?
</RantMode>

I'll get me coat.
 
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WaltonR said:
<RantMode>
Couldn't agree more. History happened. Some of it was horrendous and only shows the depths to which we as human beings can sink. It's not what we've done, no-one can change that, but it's how we move on and make the world a better place, for all ethnicities.

We get it. Back in the day, people of colour, were enslaved & exploited by unscrupulous traders and people of the time who did not know any better and were people of the day. That's not to say they were right in any way or form. It should never have happened. But what about through all of history, people have been made slaves of, those that for whatever reason were seen as weaker were enslaved by others who, at that time, had the upper hand. Should we go around ripping down statues of roman leaders, Greek scholars. Tear down the pyramids even. Imagine the slavery that went into building them?

Tearing statues down, and otherwise defacing structures just because one group, or another, doesn't agree with what they stand for is not the answer. Next thing we know they'll be ripping down the statue of Churchill because he sent 100's of thousands of men and women to their deaths during WWII.

What next? Are they going to go through all of the history books and scrub out the names of the bad people, then right in their place about how sweet and rosy everything was back then. This part of history was a wonderful and exciting place for all, because society hundreds or thousands of years later has changed and deemed it unsuitable? Where will the young people learn then?
</RantMode>

I'll get me coat.
Click to expand...

What a ridiculous post.

Its not about eliminating them from history, it about not celebrating them. Seems pretty simple to me.
 
WaltonR said:
Next thing we know they'll be ripping down the statue of Churchill because he sent 100's of thousands of men and women to their deaths during WWII.
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No, more likely we'll rip them down because of his use of chemical weapons :)

And should Jimmy Savile have his programmes repeated? If not then why should we continue to honour slave traders with statues? Yes history happened but continuing to honour these vile people cannot be right. Confining them to museums where the context can be explained seems to be about right to me.
 
WaltonR said:
<RantMode>
Couldn't agree more. History happened. Some of it was horrendous and only shows the depths to which we as human beings can sink. It's not what we've done, no-one can change that, but it's how we move on and make the world a better place, for all ethnicities
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Germany does not have any Hitler statues, but they acknowledge their bad history more than any other country I know of, they don't white wash or hide it but they don't celebrate the men who committed disgraceful act on other humans.
 
jakeblu said:
What a ridiculous post.

Its not about eliminating them from history, it about not celebrating them. Seems pretty simple to me.
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I think as well you have to consider the context of a statue. If a statue (as I understand this was) is raised 100 yrs after Colston's death then are you celebrating him or some Victorian industrialists reasons for raising his statue? anyway enough of that. Crit for the picture

gramps said:
Sometimes a news reporters lot can be a lonely one. :)
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TBH Roger I'm not sure about this. Normally your photos (at least of people) tell a story and stand without the narrative. The story (at least to me) is the empty plinth. I wouldn't have got to that from this photo. Maybe wider, making the reporter less prominent would show the empty plinth and make it more of a story
 
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jakeblu said:
What a ridiculous post.

Its not about eliminating them from history, it about not celebrating them. Seems pretty simple to me.
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Thank you for your opinion.
 
whiteflyer said:
Germany does not have any Hitler statues, but they acknowledge their bad history more than any other country I know of, they don't white wash or hide it but they don't celebrate the men who committed disgraceful act on other humans.
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Thank you for your valid opinion.
 
boyfalldown said:
TBH Roger I'm not sure about this. Normally your photos (at least of people) tell a story and stand without the narrative. The story (at least to me) is the empty plinth. I wouldn't have got to that from this photo. Maybe wider, making the reporter less prominent would show the empty plinth and make it more of a story
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To be fair Hugh, the title is about the empty plinth (and it certainly works if the thread is anything to go by!) the comment about the reporter was just part of the additional narrative.
However I appreciate your comment and it's probably a point for me to note not to 'mix' aspects of a photo. :)
 
gramps said:
To be fair Hugh, the title is about the empty plinth (and it certainly works if the thread is anything to go by!) the comment about the reporter was just part of the additional narrative.
However I appreciate your comment and it's probably a point for me to note not to 'mix' aspects of a photo. :)
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Gramps,
Please accept my apologies if I have stolen your thread. It was not my intention to do so.
 
gramps said:
Not at all Richard, your view is as valid as everyone elses :)
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I have to admit that, for me, it doesn't quite have your usual impact. That said I do like the messages your photos normally convey.
 
LOL, well done Gramps ;)
 
WaltonR said:
<RantMode>
Couldn't agree more. History happened. Some of it was horrendous and only shows the depths to which we as human beings can sink. It's not what we've done, no-one can change that, but it's how we move on and make the world a better place, for all ethnicities.

We get it. Back in the day, people of colour, were enslaved & exploited by unscrupulous traders and people of the time who did not know any better and were people of the day. That's not to say they were right in any way or form. It should never have happened. But what about through all of history, people have been made slaves of, those that for whatever reason were seen as weaker were enslaved by others who, at that time, had the upper hand. Should we go around ripping down statues of roman leaders, Greek scholars. Tear down the pyramids even. Imagine the slavery that went into building them?

Tearing statues down, and otherwise defacing structures just because one group, or another, doesn't agree with what they stand for is not the answer. Next thing we know they'll be ripping down the statue of Churchill because he sent 100's of thousands of men and women to their deaths during WWII.

What next? Are they going to go through all of the history books and scrub out the names of the bad people, then right in their place about how sweet and rosy everything was back then. This part of history was a wonderful and exciting place for all, because society hundreds or thousands of years later has changed and deemed it unsuitable? Where will the young people learn then?
</RantMode>

I'll get me coat.
Click to expand...

And possibly more to the point, there is a lot of slavery* still going on in many parts of the world. I recently read that in Africa they prefer the term “free labour”, not sure why :(.

* I’m including various types of ‘employment’ that technically aren’t called slavery.
 
Modern slavery is the severe exploitation of other people for personal or commercial gain. Modern slavery is all around us, but often just out of sight. People can become entrapped making our clothes, serving our food, picking our crops, working in factories, or working in houses as cooks, cleaners or nannies.
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{Antislavery Organisation}
 
gramps said:
{Antislavery Organisation}
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My only quibble with this “modern slavery” business is that it tends to obscure the real old fashioned slavery that is still going on :).
 
sphexx said:
My only quibble with this “modern slavery” business is that it tends to obscure the real old fashioned slavery that is still going on :).
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Please explain ... my mind is drawn to the packed 'sardine tin' slave ships.
 
gramps said:
Please explain ... my mind is drawn to the packed 'sardine tin' slave ships.
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Well, for example:

Slavery in the Sahel region (and to a lesser extent the Horn of Africa), exists along the racial and cultural boundary of Arabized Berbers in the north and darker Africans in the south.[8]Slavery in the Sahel states of Mauritania, Mali, Niger, Chad and Sudan in particular, continues a centuries-old pattern of hereditary servitude.[9] Other forms of traditional slavery exist in parts of Ghana, Benin, Togo and Nigeria.[10] There are other, non-traditional forms of slavery in Africa today, mostly involving human traffickingand the enslavement of child soldiers and child labourers, e.g. human trafficking in Angola, and human trafficking of children from Togo, Benin and Nigeria to Gabon and Cameroon …

… Forced labor in Sub-Saharan Africa[16] is estimated at 660,000….

en.wikipedia.org

Slavery in contemporary Africa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

And of course historically:
en.wikipedia.org

Slavery in Africa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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sphexx said:
Well, for example:

Slavery in the Sahel region (and to a lesser extent the Horn of Africa), exists along the racial and cultural boundary of Arabized Berbers in the north and darker Africans in the south.[8]Slavery in the Sahel states of Mauritania, Mali, Niger, Chad and Sudan in particular, continues a centuries-old pattern of hereditary servitude.[9] Other forms of traditional slavery exist in parts of Ghana, Benin, Togo and Nigeria.[10] There are other, non-traditional forms of slavery in Africa today, mostly involving human traffickingand the enslavement of child soldiers and child labourers, e.g. human trafficking in Angola, and human trafficking of children from Togo, Benin and Nigeria to Gabon and Cameroon …

… Forced labor in Sub-Saharan Africa[16] is estimated at 660,000….

en.wikipedia.org

Slavery in contemporary Africa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

And of course historically:
en.wikipedia.org

Slavery in Africa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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Ah I see, yes I was thinking 'western world' :)
 
gramps said:
Ah I see, yes I was thinking 'western world' :)
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Everybody does :(. It’s a pity your thread has gone off onto ‘slavery’ rather than the subject of your photo but I suppose it was inevitable :(. I’ll shut up now :).
 
sphexx said:
Everybody does :(. It’s a pity your thread has gone off onto ‘slavery’ rather than the subject of your photo but I suppose it was inevitable :(. I’ll shut up now :).
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I don't think it's gone off topic, the controversy is about Colston's involvement in slavery. :)
 
gramps said:
I don't think it's gone off topic, the controversy is about Colston's involvement in slavery. :)
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I thought it was about the TV crews and reporters :(.
 
sphexx said:
I thought it was about the TV crews and reporters :(.
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TOPIC: "The plinth of controversy."

I understand that my specifically mentioning the reporter may have confused some but the reporter is only there because of the controversy over the statue and plinth.
There is much controversy about what to do with the statue, even how it should be positioned in the 'museum' and equally controversy over its being removed in the first place and yet again, what will replace the statue on the now vacant plinth.
My bad in that I assumed that most were as familiar with the circumstances surrounding the statue as we are locally, since it has frequently featured on the national news. :)
 
j crossley said:
If George Floyd had not died would the statue of Colston still have been pulled down?
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It had been a subject of fierce controversy for several years before George Floyd was killed.
His killing was probably the catalyst that caused the action ... from the view of those opposed to the statue, the Council had procrastinated too long in doing something about it.
 
gramps said:
TOPIC: "The plinth of controversy."

I understand that my specifically mentioning the reporter may have confused some but the reporter is only there because of the controversy over the statue and plinth.
There is much controversy about what to do with the statue, even how it should be positioned in the 'museum' and equally controversy over its being removed in the first place and yet again, what will replace the statue on the now vacant plinth.
My bad in that I assumed that most were as familiar with the circumstances surrounding the statue as we are locally, since it has frequently featured on the national news. :)
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OK, I retract my apology :).
 
( ･᷄ ︵･᷅ )

al1rwzrcoxz41.jpg
 
j crossley said:
If George Floyd had not died would the statue of Colston still have been pulled down?
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I live near Wigan, and went to the Bristol Harbour festival in 2018 and was well aware then, that for years that locals had been trying to get Coulson Hall renamed ( must have been talked about in the music media for me to know) so wasn't surprised when the statue was pulled down, yes George Floyd was the catalyst for the action, but it has been an issue for many years.

I believe it's a good thing so much media attention was put on the event, it may force us to look a bit deeper in to the history of the people we have on statues and were the wealth of the city's we live in came from.

I'm not saying we should just rip down every statue and memorial, but as I understand it an extra plaque with info on Coulson slave trade was suggested for the plinth but never got anywhere.
 
On another forum site, someone asked the question: If it's acceptable for a dark skined actress to play Anne Boleyn in a historical series, would it be acceptable for a light skinned actor to play Cassius Clay? If not, why not?
 
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