AF mode advice please

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Jan
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Some advice from all you expert bird togs, please.
I've just bought a new camera body (Canon 800D) for wildlife so my old 550D is now landscape and walkabout. The 800D has the 45 point af system where you can use a single selectable point, all points or zone them off into 3 or 9 areas. For 'static' birds I would use a single af point as I always have, but what about birds in flight? I've always failed miserably at BIF, mostly my own incompetence but partly because of the 550's 9 point af. If my chosen af point slips off the bird it's game over. The lens hunts and can't refocus before the bird's in the next county. I presume using all points or an area increases my chances of maintaining focus but is there a mode that works best? I'm using servo af and continuous shooting, obviously. I'd pop out to my local reservoir, find a few gulls and work it out for myself but the light's horrible, it's probably going to rain and I've picked up a stinking cold :grumpy:
 
I'm a Nikon shooter Jan so possible not helpful but I have often found Nikon's Group Area-AF to be very good for BIF and I am wondering if Canon's "zone them off into 3 or 9 areas" is similar, i.e. all points work togather to keep the subject in focus.
I also had great success recently by using 3D Tracking on my D850 but I don't know if Canon has similar - needs good light/contrast though for best results.
 
Hi Jan

Just some thoughts.

As you may have realised BiF is one of if the most challenging of genre.

Technique is key in that practice always good.

Settings wise:-
Yes, Servo AF and burst shooting........with 5 or 9 zone in cluttered background should give more keepers (with larger birds) but against a clear sky do try all 45 points (the principal being no distractions)

However one technique I tried and does work ~ is to set up BBF (back button focusing) and use what is called (more than one name) 'lift & re-aquiring'. Keeping your thumb in the BBF button, if the subject is erratic and you lose focus > lift finger to avoid the AF hunting (this should mean though the subject is fuzzy.....you can still see it > move camera AF zone over subject > press BBF to start AF again > press shutter button as needed.

What I describe does need practice but can work whatever make of camera.

Do practice on the local gulls as IMO can be good practice subjects......above all just enjoy your new kit :)
 
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I'm a Nikon shooter Jan so possible not helpful but I have often found Nikon's Group Area-AF to be very good for BIF and I am wondering if Canon's "zone them off into 3 or 9 areas" is similar, i.e. all points work togather to keep the subject in focus.
I also had great success recently by using 3D Tracking on my D850 but I don't know if Canon has similar - needs good light/contrast though for best results.

No 3D tracking on the 800D Roger - it's not entry level but not far up the chain. Chosen because I'm still using the 550 and the control layout is almost the same and for the weight (or lack of it).
I can use: all AF points active but in servo af the manually chosen point achieves focus first; 9 focus points active in 9 selectable blocks; 15 points active in 3 selectable blocks (left, centre or right). Just Googled the Nikon group area and it looks similar to my centre 9 point zone af. I'll give that one a try for starters. Thanks.
 
Hi Jan

Just some thoughts.

As you may have realised BiF is one of if the most challenging of genre.

Technique is key in that practice always good.

Settings wise:-
Yes, Servo AF and burst shooting........with 5 or 9 zone in cluttered background should give more keepers (with larger birds) but against a clear sky do try all 45 points (the principal being no distractions)

However one technique I tried and does work ~ is to set up BBF (back button focusing) and use what is called (more than one name) 'lift & re-aquiring'. Keeping your thumb in the BBF button, if the subject is erratic and you lose focus > lift finger to avoid the AF hunting (this should mean though the subject is fuzzy.....you can still see it > move camera AF zone over subject > press BBF to start AF again > press shutter button as needed.

What I describe does need practice but can work whatever make of camera.

Do practice on the local gulls as IMO can be good practice subjects......above all just enjoy your new kit :)

BB you posted while I was replying to Roger. BIF challenging - tell me about it! Part of the rationale behind the new body was frustration because I just haven't improved. Mostly me but I felt the 550 really wasn't helping. Good point about using all 45 points with nothing else in the sky.
BBF seems to work really well for some but it's not an option for me I'm afraid. No matter how often I try I cannot keep my thumb on a back button while using the camera. My hands sometimes don't work that well.
Thanks.
 
Janny first up GWS :)...................second to add to Laurence do you have any way to restrict the lens hunting all the way from min focus distance IE switch on lens,almost always BIF are more than a few meters out,it all depends on your lens I guess. You'll achieve less hunting this way . The big thing though with any camera is nailing your mounting of the camera to the eye and hitting that moving bird with the active AF. it's worth practicing on something like a gutter( I know bare with me) jan at first. Dry mount and hit your chosen point on end of the house when you doing that seemlessly add in tracking/ following the gutter with your active AF point/s. You'll find where you put your feet becomes really important I think this is very similar to shooting with a shotgun ,well the base core method of good mounting technique and obviously being able to track something flying. The feet are so important one doesn't track very well if off balance. you almost want to move your foot to point at where you hope to make the image, difficult for me to put into words for ya mate. Janny I've laboured this a bit because very simply if these initial steps are nailed you have a chance of pointing the camera at the moving bird ,One simply can't make an image of a BIF if the camera is pointing in the wrong spot;)

I tend to use center and surrounding points Jan ,but I don't do so many BIF as the other guys. I'll use a wider area with smaller birds ( obstructions permitting ) I'd guess I have far more options with me shooting the 1 series bodies...... do you have any cases for AF on your 800d or any way of the modifying the way the camera's AF works ie tracking sensitivity AF point switching???????

The 45 points should help you, I can tell you that BIF was much harder with my 550D than with my 1Div it's still hard,but what I'm trying to get over is that BIF can be so demanding the more expensive bodies do help us it's the speed they aquire AF. But really good togs nail BIF despite all this ,it is how it is I guess some folks are just talented naturally ( hand eye co-ordination) and then they graft hard ie practice on top of that

Keep the SS as high as poss jan maybe also try shooting wide open on the F at first to help with this

all the luck mate:D

stu
 
Re: focus limiting
On Canon AFAIK that is very limited ( no pun intended;) ) in that you can typically, if the lens has such setting go from min to max or 4m to max(infinity). Here I am talking on the Canon lenses such as the 100-400mm zoom.

Such focus limiting, by comparison, is great on my Olympus E-M1.2 (though maybe be required less if the new firmware is as good as reported!)

But I digress, the above first para is based on my Canon 40D, 7D and 5D3.........they may have added settings in the more modern 800D??? NB @Jannyfox on her kit list does not show Canon Tele zoom lenses....so idea what 'on lens' controls she has that might help???

So technique and practice within any handling and/or kit functionality will win the day :)
 
Thanks for your input Stu. I'm not expecting wonders from BIF, but I'd got to the point where I wouldn't even try because I knew how it would end. The Siggy 150-600 has a focus limiter switch but only to stop it focusing on infinity when the subject is close. I find the other problem - the af point slips off and it focuses right out. The limiter doesn't help with that. My other long lens is the Tamron 70-300. I only use it if I can't take the Siggy (airline travel, boat trips etc) as the Siggy knocks the socks off it in every way, not just reach.
It's an interesting analogy with shooting. Someone once told me it's very hard for a rifle shooter to be as good with a shotgun and they weren't wrong. Photography is a bit of a mix of both as you combine the body positioning and swing to track the target with 'shooting' at it rather than at where it will be when the shot gets there. What I really need is a mode switch in my brain, but a larger spread of af points should help.
 
I use a Canon 5d iv and back button focusing, and I’m happy to help out at the meet up next week. I like to photograph birds, but I’m not an expert!

I use Servo, and high no. of frames per second. Lots of people seem to like aperture priority mode, but I prefer manual mode with auto ISO, so I guess it’s just what you get used to.

If it’s against a clear sky, I will sometimes choose 9 or more points, though usually I go for the cross configuration. It’s much harder against a busy background or trees. Not sure if you have the different AF ‘case’ options on your camera that I do - that specify how much to hold on to original focus or move off depending on acceleration etc.

Sometimes if the bird is a long way off, I’ll point somewhere on land far off and focus to get it roughly right so I can then pick up the bird in the viewfinder.
 
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Thanks for your input Stu. I'm not expecting wonders from BIF, but I'd got to the point where I wouldn't even try because I knew how it would end. The Siggy 150-600 has a focus limiter switch but only to stop it focusing on infinity when the subject is close. I find the other problem - the af point slips off and it focuses right out. The limiter doesn't help with that. My other long lens is the Tamron 70-300. I only use it if I can't take the Siggy (airline travel, boat trips etc) as the Siggy knocks the socks off it in every way, not just reach.
It's an interesting analogy with shooting. Someone once told me it's very hard for a rifle shooter to be as good with a shotgun and they weren't wrong. Photography is a bit of a mix of both as you combine the body positioning and swing to track the target with 'shooting' at it rather than at where it will be when the shot gets there. What I really need is a mode switch in my brain, but a larger spread of af points should help.

Sounds like the extra focus points will make a huge difference.
 
On my Sony a7ii, I select wide as the focus area, twined with Lock on Auto focus flexible spot, seems to do the job for me

Les :)
 
Thanks for your input Stu. I'm not expecting wonders from BIF, but I'd got to the point where I wouldn't even try because I knew how it would end. The Siggy 150-600 has a focus limiter switch but only to stop it focusing on infinity when the subject is close. I find the other problem - the af point slips off and it focuses right out. The limiter doesn't help with that. My other long lens is the Tamron 70-300. I only use it if I can't take the Siggy (airline travel, boat trips etc) as the Siggy knocks the socks off it in every way, not just reach.
It's an interesting analogy with shooting. Someone once told me it's very hard for a rifle shooter to be as good with a shotgun and they weren't wrong. Photography is a bit of a mix of both as you combine the body positioning and swing to track the target with 'shooting' at it rather than at where it will be when the shot gets there. What I really need is a mode switch in my brain, but a larger spread of af points should help.


I think the very best marksmen can use any type of weapon Jan gun or rifle. It's that hand eye coordination and muscle memory that translates to us and BIF. Jan slightly off topic but fascinating . I think it was one of Sir David's programmes they were talking about the Galapagos isles. they had a problem with feral goats utterly devasting a habitat on one particular isle. they brought in a team from New Zealand . The marksman was taking out moving goats from a flying chopper with a rifle. what he was doing was mind blowing . Leaving aside all the moral stuff about shooting the goats, he was utterly humane. He had basically rolled shotgun and rifle techniques into one,well to my untrained eye he had

I believe it the first case of a complete erradication of an alien species ( ie put there by man),anywhere...or was at the time.

Some folks are just incredibly gifted in their niche ,us mere mortals with all our failings have to try to steal the best bits within all this to try and make it as easy as possibly for us. Yeah a mode switch in my brain would also def be good,:LOL: One that would turn me into a tog for a few seconds from the jibbering wreck with buck fever would be nice !!
 
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