Are we going to move to greener transport

Cockney said:
Thats because outside London public transport is abysmal.
53% feels low for London.
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Sky said:
You took the words right out of my mouth. :agree:

It's also a LOT more costly too.
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Central London is alot more concentrated though and very little parking for commuters.
I live on the outskirts of London and only go into London for gigs. I won't touch public transport, I hate it with a passion. I use a website called Just Park, where people/businesses/hotels rent out their parking spaces/drives for a few hours. Much cheaper and more dependable than public transport.
 
nilagin said:
Central London is alot more concentrated though and very little parking for commuters.
I live on the outskirts of London and only go into London for gigs. I won't touch public transport, I hate it with a passion. I use a website called Just Park, where people/businesses/hotels rent out their parking spaces/drives for a few hours. Much cheaper and more dependable than public transport.
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I lived in London and moved out 30 years ago. Whenever I go back down now I park at Cockfosters and tube it. I think the tube is fantastic.
 
I left London about fifteen years ago and would only use my car if I was heading out of town.

Any other time I would use the Tube because it took all the stress out of moving about; no parking fees, no worrying if the car is safe, no matter if I wandered too far from where I'd parked plus I could always have a beer or two if I fancied it. :)

I always hated buses though and didn't use them for over thirty five years - it was only when I got my bus pass for being a wheelchair user a few years ago that I started using them again. Now I use them to go to the pub and back as it's safer than using a wheelchair where there are no pavements (very few roads on this island have them).
 
Sky said:
I left London about fifteen years ago and would only use my car if I was heading out of town.

Any other time I would use the Tube because it took all the stress out of moving about; no parking fees, no worrying if the car is safe, no matter if I wandered too far from where I'd parked plus I could always have a beer or two if I fancied it. :)

I always hated buses though and didn't use them for over thirty five years - it was only when I got my bus pass for being a wheelchair user a few years ago that I started using them again. Now I use them to go to the pub and back as it's safer than using a wheelchair where there are no pavements (very few roads on this island have them).
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I think the last time I used a London bus it cost me a "tanner". That dates it a bit!
 
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Sky said:
I left London about fifteen years ago and would only use my car if I was heading out of town.

Any other time I would use the Tube because it took all the stress out of moving about; no parking fees, no worrying if the car is safe, no matter if I wandered too far from where I'd parked plus I could always have a beer or two if I fancied it. :)
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The last time I used the tube had to be almost 40 years ago, before I learnt to drive and bought a car. I live at the end of the District Line and only had to go 5 stations, not into London and that was more than enough. I found it really depressing.
 
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mikew said:
With the promise :LOL: of more bike lanes, electric scooter certification being rushed through, the obvious lack of public transport being able to cope and maintain social distancing, what do you think will happen.
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Chances are, some office-type of companies, may consider the idea of working from home as either as a second office or as the new norm.

What I meant is that starting from around the 1990s onwards. Some people were already working from home, those would mostly be writers, journalist, graphic designers, computer programmers, etc. They would work at home with their computers, save the files to a floppy disk, later a CD, and post their work to their bosses. When the Internet became more widely available and faster, they email their work to their bosses, and nowadays it's all done by the cloud.

Something similar to say, the 1995 Sandra Bullock movie The Net in which she plays a system analyst who prefer to work from home with her own computer.

Insurance companies, some banking companies, accountants, IT support, call-centre type of staff, etc., may start to follow suit. Why waste time hurry up with breakfast, struggle with rush-hour travel, and all that, when they can work from home by using the Internet and the cloud?

In the past, writers, designers, etc., would work form their home computers, and would still sometimes travel to the office for face-to-face meetings, I'm sure the new ones that follows suit would still go to the offices for meeting clients.

Thus if it were to happen, growth of transportation would slow down a bit. We would still get more and more bicycles and cars because the population is still growing, but it would be adding at a slower rate if more and more people are starting to work from home, if it could be done.

Social distancing won't be forever, in a couple of years time, once the covid-19 is fully beaten, we would be back to doing everything as we have done before. But chances are, some of the management for office-type of work, would notice their staff could do better workflow if working at home, may decided to opt for their employees working form home.
 
First & foremost let me say I am a committed fan of ICE powered cars, but......

As car manufacturers strive to meet ever increasingly tough emission standards with more & more technology you have to wonder if alternatives such as electric and hydrogen fuel cell are the way forward?

The complexities of modern emission technology means there is more & more to go wrong in ICE powered cars. My wife & I gave up on diesel powered cars because our use for mostly local and urban travel was causing issues with DPFs & sensor failures. Now, with the introduction of GPF/PPFs on petrol cars are we headed in the same direction?

I understand that GPF/PPFs are not so prone to clogging as DPFs are but they are something else to go wrong. The relative simplicity of an electric power train is looking increasingly attractive......
 
It seems to me that hybrid cars are the logical way to move forward, as they utilise the existing fuel distribution network but can offer the option to use mains electricity as an alternative recharging source.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
It seems to me that hybrid cars are the logical way to move forward, as they utilise the existing fuel distribution network but can offer the option to use mains electricity as an alternative recharging source.
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You'd think so wouldn't you? Unfortunately most of the ones on the market seem to be using "Hybrid" to create vehicles that shouldn't really exist :)

For example, the Outlander (possibly the best selling hybrid ever). All the aerodynamics of a brick and tested at a shocking 27mpg on petrol only (not surprisingly the longer the journey the worse it is). But it pays no congestion charge because you can't prove it isn't running on full electric :D
 
A couple of years ago my local bus company bought a load of "greener" buses. I assumed they'd at least be hybrid, like another local company already had. Well no, they just had "cleaner" diesel engines. What happens is that every single time the bus stops, the engine automatically cuts out, then re-starts when it wants to move (I guess the starter motor is triggered automatically when the driver presses the accelerator). More often than not the bus is stationary for under 10 seconds. It would be more fuel-efficient to leave the engine running. I see nothing "green" about them at all. Then of course the same drivers driving their older models will sit at a level crossing for 15 minutes leaving the old diesel engine running.
 
Stop start tech has been proven to reduce emissions its not to save fuel. My focus and Fiesta both cut out once you place the car in neutral and take your foot off the clutch. the moment the clutch is touched the engine restarts. Electronic ignition so instant start.

Hydrogen was the next best thing but only one fuel station carried it in my area and only a handfull of buses were bought that run on it. I have been on an electric bus in London - may of been hybrid but we only experienced electric power
 
AgentOrange76 said:
Stop start tech has been proven to reduce emissions its not to save fuel. My focus and Fiesta both cut out once you place the car in neutral and take your foot off the clutch. the moment the clutch is touched the engine restarts. Electronic ignition so instant start.
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The buses I referred to will stop for literally seconds, often 5s or less at many stops. I don't see how emissions are reduced by that, when more fuel is used. Also there's the battery use every time, where it takes over 100 amps to re-start, so the battery needs that charge replenished. We're only talking about small numbers here but it can't be better for fuel economy or emissions to stop a bus engine for such a short time, dozens of times throughout a journey. It's very different in a car where you may stop for a few minutes at a time. These buses will stop at a stop, open doors, close doors, nobody getting off or on, then they leave immediately.

I've also been on several hybrid buses in London. Awfully hot & terribly designed buses, but I know that's not the point here. I think they were only using electric power but with the lack of air-con, I was too busy thinking about how much I was sweating to notice anything else. The hybrid buses around Brighton in East Sussex are pretty decent though, they cut the engines and re-start after a short time, but they initially pull away on electric power & while I'm sure they're better for emissions, I question if it's really going to make any noticeable difference.
 
Zackarydoo said:
What happens is that every single time the bus stops, the engine automatically cuts out, then re-starts when it wants to move
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I've been on several of those in Exeter. The engine is off for quite long periods at the city centre stops, often more than 30 seconds. If the engine design has improved as much as petrol engines that could add up to quite a lot of money over a large fleet.
 
Zackarydoo said:
The buses I referred to will stop for literally seconds, often 5s or less at many stops. I don't see how emissions are reduced by that, when more fuel is used. Also there's the battery use every time, where it takes over 100 amps to re-start, so the battery needs that charge replenished. We're only talking about small numbers here but it can't be better for fuel economy or emissions to stop a bus engine for such a short time, dozens of times throughout a journey. It's very different in a car where you may stop for a few minutes at a time. These buses will stop at a stop, open doors, close doors, nobody getting off or on, then they leave immediately.

I've also been on several hybrid buses in London. Awfully hot & terribly designed buses, but I know that's not the point here. I think they were only using electric power but with the lack of air-con, I was too busy thinking about how much I was sweating to notice anything else. The hybrid buses around Brighton in East Sussex are pretty decent though, they cut the engines and re-start after a short time, but they initially pull away on electric power & while I'm sure they're better for emissions, I question if it's really going to make any noticeable difference.
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I thought it was great when the Brighton&Hove buses changed to the electric, but now with the virus I won`t be using any public transport anymore as got a mountain bike arriving soon so that will be my new transport now.
 
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Hopefully we will move to greener transport but I don't think it will be electric personally I think the futures Hydrogen.
 
tarric said:
personally I think the futures Hydrogen.
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I certainly think that it should be but I doubt that good sense will prevail. :(
 
There is a groundswell of support within European governments to move citizens away from personal ownership of cars in favour of what is being called Mobility as a Service (MaaS for short). This is basically a "car on demand" system where you request a vehicle and it turns up within a few minutes, you use it and it gets collected afterwards and you pay for that usage only. This idea has spawned a rather large number of companies developing ways to make it work and there are a small number of pilot cities offering it.

There's a better description of MaaS here - https://maas-alliance.eu/homepage/what-is-maas/
 
Bristolian said:
There is a groundswell of support within European governments to move citizens away from personal ownership of cars in favour of what is being called Mobility as a Service (MaaS for short). This is basically a "car on demand" system where you request a vehicle and it turns up within a few minutes, you use it and it gets collected afterwards and you pay for that usage only. This idea has spawned a rather large number of companies developing ways to make it work and there are a small number of pilot cities offering it.

There's a better description of MaaS here - https://maas-alliance.eu/homepage/what-is-maas/
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That sort of thing has been around for a good few years, although not the car being dropped of and picked up again. But with the virus, who is going to want to use a car after someone else has used it. Even car dealerships are sanitizing cars when they go in for service etc. Fitting covers on everything in the interior, then sanitizing them again as well as the keys before they are handed back.

Alot of people will still prefer to have a car of their own, I know I will.
 
What comes first though, a new transport infrastructure or the vehicle choices. i like many others dont need a car with a 200 plus mile range but i do need in town transport.

I am talking inner city/town trandport not city to city
 
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mikew said:
What comes first though, a new transport infrastructure or the vehicle choices. i like many others dont need a car with a 200 plus mile range but i do need in town transport.

I am talking inner city/town trandport not city to city
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Electric is likely to suit you, if you can charge at home, you won't require any infrastructure. I can't charge at home, so it would have to be done at work. Charging at work is unlikely to be a problem at present, because there are so few of us at work due to others working from home and the lack of people with electric cars at present. New chargers have just been installed in the higher managers car park, so I guess they will all be getting Mustang Mach E's in a few months time.
 
nilagin said:
Electric is likely to suit you, if you can charge at home, you won't require any infrastructure. I can't charge at home, so it would have to be done at work. Charging at work is unlikely to be a problem at present, because there are so few of us at work due to others working from home and the lack of people with electric cars at present. New chargers have just been installed in the higher managers car park, so I guess they will all be getting Mustang Mach E's in a few months time.
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Your answer makes sense but i dont need anything like the modern range of EVs, ime sort of only a max of 20miles range short of my mobility scooters capabilities, shopping and a day out at Cleethorpes, my needs are modest ;)
 
nilagin said:
That sort of thing has been around for a good few years, although not the car being dropped of and picked up again. But with the virus, who is going to want to use a car after someone else has used it. Even car dealerships are sanitizing cars when they go in for service etc. Fitting covers on everything in the interior, then sanitizing them again as well as the keys before they are handed back.

Alot of people will still prefer to have a car of their own, I know I will.
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Hi Neil, yes, this idea has been kicked around for at leat the last decade but it is the advent of fully autonomous vehicles that has allowed it to gain traction. Still, we may be another decade away from seeing it widely available.

You raise a good point about how effective this will be in situations like that we find ourselves in right now. The one thing you can be sure of though is that someone will come up with the solution.

Like you, I would wish to retain my own transport but only because I enjoy driving ... and I'm an ornery ol' cuss :)
 
mikew said:
Your answer makes sense but i dont need anything like the modern range of EVs, ime sort of only a max of 20miles range short of my mobility scooters capabilities, shopping and a day out at Cleethorpes, my needs are modest ;)
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An older Nissan Leaf would do you just fine. Ours reports a 79 mile range on a full charge but that's based on its recent use which includes a steep hill up from town with either the heater or air con on. On a longer, flat run, I reckon that's probably about right at normal road speeds. Apparently works out at around 4-5p/mile "fuel" cost. Driving is just like an automatic but with a bit more "engine" braking when in regen mode. Shouts at you when you get down to 20% charge - a good 10 miles worth.
 
mikew said:
Your answer makes sense but i dont need anything like the modern range of EVs, ime sort of only a max of 20miles range short of my mobility scooters capabilities, shopping and a day out at Cleethorpes, my needs are modest ;)
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The original Renault Zoe would suit you - a real-world range of about 50 miles.
 
The problem with a lot of the early Zoes is that you have to lease the battery and that isn't cheap (or wasn't when we were looking for an EV).
 
Nod said:
The problem with a lot of the early Zoes is that you have to lease the battery and that isn't cheap (or wasn't when we were looking for an EV).
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The problem with a lot of Zoes was they were Zoes. To paraphrase a colleague who has one, it's the worst made car he's ever owned.
 
Nod said:
The problem with a lot of the early Zoes is that you have to lease the battery and that isn't cheap (or wasn't when we were looking for an EV).
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Indeed. That's what turned me away from Zoe. There isn't any way to buy out the battery lease. A ~£100 unlimited miles battery lease is totally unreasonable when monthly depreciation or PCP payment of the second hand car is less than that.

With Nissan Leaf, although they had early Flex battery rental program, any used car gone through their dealer network after a certain date would become battery owned and no more unreasonably expensive battery rental payments.



On greener transportation. In time, there will be solutions for everyone:
- Like to own cars? A type of zero tailpipe emission car that covers your daily driving profile will be (most likely already is) available. The key is to be realistic about your needs.
- Only need a few miles of transport? Electric bike or scooter (hopefully soon legal for the latter)
- Want to drive further on a blue moon or need a bigger car? Ride sharing platforms or car rental are available.

The lockdown have bought fantastic air quality, despite more people having BBQ. With less tailpipe emissions clogging up the road, the air quality improved (not a surprise to anyone). So let's remember last few months and aim to restore this air quality after resuming our daily lifes.
 
You can buy out the battery lease on a Zoe now actually. It's recently been made possible but it's so expensive it's not worth it for most people.

As a previous Zoe owner I'd say the build quality is crap but if you want a cheap EV it does cheap very well. Mine rarely dropped below 140 miles available even in winter. I have a Leaf 40 which is a much, much better built car but the range is crap in comparison. It's 100 mile winter not 130 minimum that the Zoe would manage. Main difference is that the heater in the Leaf puts out actual heat. I have the interior set to 19.5 in the Leaf and it's toasty. The Zoe I had on 23c or 24c and it was still cold.

Leaf and the zoe is basically a choice between a half decent car on a rubbish EV powertrain or a rubbish car on a really good EV powertrain. The Niro/Soul/Ioniq/ etc are both with both but they're a lot more £££.
 
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