Bridge, MFT, achromats, dSLR, primes - a journey of exploration

Why change equipment you seem to be doing very well with your current set up?

Because I might be able to do better with different equipment. I'm continually on the lookout for means of improvement. I suppose that is what this thread is about really. Of course a lot if it has been to do with technique, settings and (to a great extent) post processing rather than equipment. But equipment does make a difference too, or can do. The trouble is, for me at least, that the only way to really find out if something else will work better is to try it, and depending on the options being considered that can be rather expensive. That is ok if it works, but if it doesn't .... not so good, especially if it were the most expensive option I had ever tried (which for flowers, it would be, by a long way).
 
I'm continually on the lookout for means of improvement. I suppose that is what this thread is about really. Of course a lot if it has been to do with technique, settings and (to a great extent) post processing rather than equipment. But equipment does make a difference too, or can do. The trouble is, for me at least, that the only way to really find out if something else will work better is to try it, and depending on the options being considered that can be rather expensive. That is ok if it works, but if it doesn't .... not so good, especially if it were the most expensive option I had ever tried (which for flowers, it would be, by a long way).

Well, that was last August. Things have moved on since then, at least for botanical subjects.

In October my wife and I had one of our very occasional visits to the mall. My presence was not required while she was shopping (actually it would be more accurate to say that my absence was required) so, as one does, I wandered into Jessops. They had a Sony A7ii on display, and there was a £300 cashback on it. And they had a Sigma MC-11 converter, also on offer if bought with the A7ii. The MC-11 lets you use Canon EF mount lenses on the A7ii, including autofocus with a lot of lenses.

After a quick discussion with my wife, who knew I had been wanting to try a full frame camera for flowers for some time, I bought an A7ii and MC-11. I planned to use it with my EF mount Sigma 105 macro, for which I also had extension tubes and 1.4X and 2X teleconverters which I could use to give me some extra magnification and/or, with the teleconverters, extra working distance. Even without the extension tubes or teleconverters the 105 macro would probably provide enough magnification for botanical close-ups of the type I like to do. With them I should have enough magnification for the size of flies, wasps, spiders etc that I mostly photograph.

In order to do comparisons with close-up lenses I also bought a relatively inexpensive Sigma 70-300 which has a peculiar second focus ring that lets you extend the lens an extra amount to get you to 1:2. I planned to test my normal array of close-up lenses on the 70-300.

Another thing I had in mind as a possibility for full frame was sunsets and daytime cloudscapes over the nearby Severn Estuary. I had a Sigma 10-20 I could use to test that. If it worked out well I would need a wider range of focal lengths, but the 10-20 would do for initial testing.

For botanical subjects I did some fairly careful (quite extensive, and very tedious) like for like comparisons between the Sony A7ii with Sigma 105 macro and a Panasonic G80 with Olympus 60mm macro, which at that time was my preferred kit for flowers, buds, seed pods etc. These comparisons are written up in two long posts at dpreview, one in October and one in November. I posted these at dpreview to try to tap the extensive knowledge of some of the folk there, and that proved successful; I got some extremely helpful feedback.

The outcome was surprising, and disappointing. It turned out that for what I wanted to do there was little or no benefit in using the A7ii for botanical subjects, and some distinct disadvantages. I had gone into this hoping for one or more of the following benefits: better, more subtle rendition of colours and textures, cleaner/less noisy images, better clarity, larger dynamic range.

In the like for like comparisons I didn't see better, more subtle renditions of colours or textures, or better clarity. Larger dynamic range turned out to be insignificant for the comparisons I did; it might be more relevant for some types of higher dynamic range scenes such as contre-jour that I do sometimes, but I wasn't able to test that. Besides which, I have even got strongly backlit results that I like using a low dynamic range bridge camera, so it was questionable in my mind how much of a benefit I would see for the minority of shots for which this would be relevant.

Noise turned out to be a bit complicated. It seems that if you need to use a particular aperture to get the DOF you want, and/or you need a certain minimum shutter speed when working hand-held and/or in a breeze, and /or the light level is not very good, then equivalence kicks in and there is no noise benefit for full frame. For example, if I was at 1/60 sec at f/8 ISO 800 with the G80, I would need to be at f/16 with the A7ii to get the same DOF, and in order to get the same shutter speed I would need to be at ISO 3200 with the A7ii. I am operating within this sort of envelope quite a lot of the time. The only time I would get less noisy images with the A7ii would be in light that was good enough to let me use base ISO and still get a fast enough shutter speed. However, in light that strong noise isn't too much of an issue anyway, especially given that I shoot raw and use DXO PhotoLab's extremely good PRIME noise reduction.

On the other hand although the A7ii itself is quite small and light, its lenses are not; I found the A7ii setup heavy enough to cause my wrists to ache quite quickly, especially when using it one-handed as I need to do some of the time to get the line I want on a subject. Getting those awkward lines was also more difficult by virtue of the A7ii not having a fully articulated screen, which also made it more difficult to use portrait aspect ratio, something I use a lot for flowers.

I had been prepared to put up with less convenient handling in the interests of better image quality, but I was not seeing better image quality. And that was for single image captures. At that time I was getting increasingly into stacking for flowers etc, although I was still undecided as between single image captures and stacks. I had reservations about the difficulties I encountered with processing stacks - sometimes I got results that I really liked, but it seemed like hard, time-consuming work and failed completely often enough to incline me towards single image captures. On the other hand stacking was giving me results that would be impossible to get with single images, no matter what camera I used. And I really liked some of these stacked images.

The A7ii didn't do focus bracketing or, what I generally used with my G80, post focus videos that I could use for stacking. Since it also seemed not to give me the radically better results for single image captures that I had hoped for I decided to take a different approach for botanical subjects. I decided to get the best kit I could in the format that was working quite well for me, micro four thirds, and put more effort into the processing side of it to try to get a better handle on the stacking issues.

I bought a Panasonic G9, their top line stills camera. This had several advantages over the G80 that I had been using previously. My preferred method for capturing images for stacking was post focus, which is a video-based technique. With the G80 I had been using 4K video, which produces 8 megapixel images from its 16 megapixel sensor. With the G9 I could use 6K video for post focus, which produces 18 megapixel images from its 20 megapixel sensor.

A disadvantage of post focus is that you are using video and from that you can only get JPEGs. However, the G9 lets you use a camera profile with a very flat profile, Cinelike D, and coupled with turning the noise reduction and sharpening right down this gave me sufficient processing flexibility for my needs. In fact, using this configuration the G9 produces JPEGs that I find appealing without needing too much done to them, especially as I got into the habit of setting the camera white balance for each scene individually. The G9 has really good configurability and conveniently placed buttons (two on the front of the camera in particular) which make this white balance setting really easy to do (I use the 18% grey panel on a ColorChecker Passport).

I continued to use Helicon Focus, which is one of the few products that can handle the H.265 format that the G9 uses for 6K video. A new PC, with a very powerful graphics card, made loading videos, extracting the JPEGs and aligning them, and the stacking too, fast enough not to be tedious.

I used the G9 with the Olympus 60mm macro that I had previously used on the G80. I quickly became very comfortable indeed with the G9, customising it to make it very quick and easy to switch back and forth between post focus and aperture bracketing, the other technique that I had been using a lot with the G80.

One of the things that matters most to me about my botanical images is the balance between on the one hand the extent to which the DOF covers the subject and on the other hand the way the background looks. Both of these depend on the aperture, with background rendition generally favouring larger apertures and DOF coverage generally favouring smaller apertures. I can't decide on a suitable aperture by simply looking at a scene; it is therefore a matter of trial and error. Doing this out in the field, trying different apertures and trying to decide what has worked best by looking at the little LCD screen is at best time-consuming, and risks being not very effective.

Aperture bracketing lets me take a sequence of captures with a single press of the shutter button, from f/2.8 to f/22. I can then decide which ones to use at leisure on the PC when I can get a decent look at them. This makes sessions in the field flow much better without the starting and stopping of review and retry. A downside of aperture bracketing is that the shutter speed can get very slow with the smallest apertures. It then becomes a judgement call as to what ISO to use so that the images captured with the smallest aperture I am likely to want to use had a fast enough shutter speed to avoid motion blur from hand-shake or subject movement. This results in typically using ISOs that are higher than one would need to use if optimising the exposure for individual captures. However, that was a compromise that worked well for me, especially given the noise control software I was using.

As the winter progressed I continued to find enough botanical subjects to practice on and slowly developed my post processing techniques to better handle the problems with stacking. One of those developments was to start using Photoshop again. I have an Adobe Photography subscription so I have Photoshop as well as Lightroom. Some years ago I used Photoshop but once I started using Lightroom I almost never used Photoshop. Now I am using it for example to deal with halos where cloning is needed, for which I find Photoshop a better tool than Helicon Focus or Lightroom.

I concentrated almost exclusively on stacking for a couple of months, which may well have been necessary to get to grips with the issues, but I realised that I was missing opportunities which single image captures could offer, possible examples being subjects that are too difficult for me to want to handle with stacking because of complicated haloing problems, scenes where subject movement was too great for stacking to work, and scenes where I would prefer more going on in the backgrounds than I typically get with my approach to stacking. I am now using an approach with three stages for each scene.

First, I set the white balance.

Second, I capture at least one aperture bracket set. This guarantees that I have single images with varied apertures to work on if the stack won't work or which may give me a look I prefer. Because of the way the G9 works this also makes it very quick to check the (3 separate channels) histogram for over-saturated channels, something which I find a particular problem with botanical issues, where one channel (often the red channel) is overloaded but this doesn't show up in the pre-shot zebras or the post-shot highlight blinkies. When this happens all detail can disappear from areas of, typically, petals, and the colours can become unrealistic and difficult or impossible (for me at least) to recover.

Third, capture several post focus videos. One of the issues with this is that it can be difficult to compose the shots. This is because when you half press the shutter button the camera moves the focus to find the front and back of the scene and as it does the subject changes size as it goes in and out of focus. Having done that the camera brings the focus to rest, at which point the subject will often be out of focus, and the wrong size, or even invisible, either of which make composition problematic. Starting with an aperture bracket capture helps with this, because autofocus works normally for that, allowing me to explore the options and settle on a composition. Since 6K post focus uses almost the entire sensor I can keep the same framing for the subsequent post focus capture. (This does not work with 4K post focus because 4K uses much less than the whole sensor, causing the framing to be completely different from single image capture framing.)

Little by little I am gaining confidence and competence with stacking, and bringing its use into balance with non-stacking techniques. At this stage I feel the G9 has been a great success. It feels good in my hands, I find it a pleasure to use, and I like the results I am getting from it.

As to the A7ii, I haven't found a use for it yet. When I started testing it for sunsets/cloudscapes I realised that I had forgotten that the 10-20 is an APS-C lens. To its credit, the A7ii handled that invisibly, automatically switching to APS-C mode when I mounted the 10-20, but of course it wasn't a good test of full frame capability. I then bought some inexpensive legacy lenses to try using the A7ii for sunsets and cloudscapes, but I had a lot of problems with flare and gave up on that idea.

I eventually bought a Sony 24-240. With that range of focal lengths it is obviously not optically brilliant. In fact I have seen it described as one of the worst (possibly the worst) lens in the Sony full frame line-up. However, I have also seen it described very positively, and detail (and therefore the optical qualities of the lens) would not be the key factor for the subject matter I had in mind. In this case the key factors would be to do with the camera rather than the lens - dynamic range (while the sun was still above the horizon) and low noise (when light levels drop after the sun has set). And in this case I would be able to use the lens wide open as depth of field would not be an issue and would be able to use slow shutter speeds, especially if using a tripod, which is a practical proposition for sunsets. This would mean I wouldn't run into the image quality limitation issues that had proved so critical for botanical subject matter.

Some early tests suggested that there would indeed be image quality benefits in using the A7ii for single-image captures of sunsets and cloudscapes. However, I have yet to test this properly with more extensive like for like comparisons. And then there is the question of multi-capture techniques, which could undermine any single image capture benefits of the A7ii. These techniques would be exposure bracketing and merging for high dynamic range scenes with the sun above the horizon and median blending for post sunset low light scenes. Since moving water is generally present in these scenes beside the estuary the softening effects of such merging might or might not be attractive. When my mood and the state of the sky coincide I shall do some more experiments.

And for invertebrates? I don't see the A7ii being useful for this. I have been over the issues in detail over the course of many previous posts in this thread in relation to micro four thirds and APS-C, with various combinations of macro lenses, reversed lenses, extension tubes and teleconverters, and also with close-up lenses, and I kept coming back to using close-up lenses with my bridge cameras as the best option, for my preferred ways of working and usual subject matter. Given my use of very small apertures and the implications of that for loss of image quality from difraction, I don't see any prospect of the A7ii being an improvement. In fact it might not even be as good as APS-C or micro four thirds because I would only be able to use minimum nominal apertures of f/22 with the A7ii, equivalent to f/11 with micro four thirds or around f/14 with APS-C, reducing the depth of field by up to half.

I did some indoor test shots of a banknote that I have used to look at various setups and this did not suggest I would get exceptional quality for my purposes from the A7ii. For real world live testing there have not been many invertebrate subjects around until now, and for those that have I have been very inclined to use a setup that I know works rather than wasting these currently limited opportunities with a setup that I have no reason to believe would be better and good reasons (weight, focusing issues, DOF) to think that it would be worse. But when subjects are more plentiful I will give it a more thorough workout. Who knows, perhaps I will be surprised. That wouldn't be the first time that has happened on this journey. :)
 
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Fascinating thread! A hell of a lot of reading, boy can you type! but it's intriguing seeing your progress, I've dipped in and out and read new posts whenever I remembered to check back.

I see you have tried the Canon 55-250 STM with tubes and Raynox, have you thought of adapting that lens to your G80/G9? I'm doing just that atm and trying this very lens out on the G80 plus a Raynox 250 for some macro. The adapter I got is a Viltrox EF-M1 [£80], there is also a speed booster version but EF-S lenses don't fit that one without some hacking. The magnification is beyond anything I'd require at the longer end, I find between 100-135mm the sweet spot, so I would never need to add ext tubes.

I got this lens as it's too cheap not to, and I've seen some great example images taken with it. I've found it's every bit as good if not better than the Panasonic 100-300 mk1 - AF with the adapter works fine, it's a little sluggish as expected unless you target something with clear contrast. But I have found it nippy enough in good lighting for anything I'd shoot [garden birds, still life] It has better magnification than the Pany lens too at 1:29 and can focus down to 85cm. You get all the relevant exif data too, the adapter has fully functional cpu contacts.

Just throwing the ide out there as you like to experiment :)
 
Fascinating thread! A hell of a lot of reading, boy can you type!

Thanks. I learnt to touch type 50 years ago and still use it enough to be quite fast at it, so length is more of a problem for the reader than the writer!

but it's intriguing seeing your progress, I've dipped in and out and read new posts whenever I remembered to check back.

I see you have tried the Canon 55-250 STM with tubes and Raynox, have you thought of adapting that lens to your G80/G9? I'm doing just that atm and trying this very lens out on the G80 plus a Raynox 250 for some macro. The adapter I got is a Viltrox EF-M1 [£80], there is also a speed booster version but EF-S lenses don't fit that one without some hacking. The magnification is beyond anything I'd require at the longer end, I find between 100-135mm the sweet spot, so I would never need to add ext tubes.

I got this lens as it's too cheap not to, and I've seen some great example images taken with it. I've found it's every bit as good if not better than the Panasonic 100-300 mk1 - AF with the adapter works fine, it's a little sluggish as expected unless you target something with clear contrast. But I have found it nippy enough in good lighting for anything I'd shoot [garden birds, still life] It has better magnification than the Pany lens too at 1:29 and can focus down to 85cm. You get all the relevant exif data too, the adapter has fully functional cpu contacts.

Just throwing the ide out there as you like to experiment :)

:D I certainly do like to experiment.

Thanks for the suggestions. I have tried adapting the 55-250 STM to MFT, but I only have a Commlite adapter which doesn't do autofocus. I use autofocus most of the time but I thought I might be ok without it, but it turned out that I really do want autofocus. At the time getting an adapter that had a high probability of autofocus working well enough seemed too expensive for the benefits it might have offered (and, especially, the risks that it wouldn't work to my liking), so I never went down that route. It is interesting to hear about the Viltrox (now showing at £105 new). On reading your post I straight away thought I might try it, but I did a little test and PhotoLab doesn't recognise the combination of G80 and 55-250, which rather kills it for me unfortunately because PhotoLab is a key part of my processing workflow for invertebrates. Pity.

I feel pretty much settled at the moment in using the FZ330 for insects etc. My experiments currently are with the A7ii for sunsets/cloudscapes.

I'm finding the A7ii a bit of a pig to use, especially when it comes to focusing - I'm getting too much out of focus. Autofocus doesn't work well for clouds (the A7ii is not alone in that of course). For manual focus, the A7ii has focus peaking but it generally doesn't work for clouds and in any case it is a bit "loose", in that the peaking display can cover quite a wide distance range and so even if peaking is showing on what you want to focus on it doesn't mean that that is where the optimum focus is. And with the two stops difference in DOF (half the DOF for the A7ii at any particular aperture compared to MFT) getting the focus distance just right turns out to be rather important. Trying to focus visually without the help of peaking, I've been using the LCD screen as I usually do with all my cameras, but with clouds it often isn't clear when optimum focus is achieved, so I may have to use the viewfinder, which I'm not keen on. And the focus ring on the lens I'm using is not not very subtle. And I like to work hand-held, but I think I'm going to have to start using a tripod for sunset sessions which tend to go on for a good while because the weight of the a7ii setup becomes troublesome for me before too long. Oh yes, as well, I can easily get the camera into focus helping mode where it goes 5X or 10X close in on part of the scene, and you can choose which part, but I'm finding that it keeps reverting back to normal viewing mode when I'm only part way through trying to get the focus right, which can become extremely frustrating and annoying. I think it is because I'm touching the shutter button, ever so, ever so lightly, and/or perhaps touching the focus ring, and I'm finding it awkward and taxing to hold the camera so that doesn't happen. All in all, it's a bit of a struggle at the moment.

The thing is, I think that if I can get to grips with the A7ii I will be able to get some quite nice results. I'm becoming convinced that it does handle high contrast scenes when the sun is still in the sky better than my G80 cameras (although to be be fair I haven't tried it with the G9 - I still haven't removed the 60mm macro from the G9 because of my paranoia about getting dust into it, given that it such an important instrument for me, for flowers etc, and given the trouble I've had in the past with dust). It also does seem to do better in low light after the sun has gone down - much less granularity in the sky than I get with the G80 even at base ISO.

These were from my latest experiment with the A7ii a couple of days ago (not really appropriate for a close-up/macro forum, but I hope it is ok in the context of this thread). I'm still trying to get to grips with the camera and so these were done from a bedroom window to do another short, quick and dirty session grappling with the basics of the camera operation, so the foreground is messy (and having to hold the camera in a really awkward position was hard on my wrists, so my hands were not at all steady, even by my own rather low standards.) When I get the operation sorted out I'll be going down to the waterside to get more harmonious compositions, and use a tripod probably.

To the naked eye it was a very dull sky but as usual the camera made much more of it than my eyes did - that is without hyping up the post processing at all btw. Also, that type of cloudscape is quite good for seeing how well the camera will pick up subtleties of gradation, what the noise level is like and how the raw files respond to processing. That all feels quite positive to me so far.

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1465 1 2019_04_02 DSC05653_PLab LR 1300h
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

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by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

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by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

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by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

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I'm not familiar with photolab but I do know that the exit data is correct for the likes of Flickr and I get the right lens profile in lightroom when editing. The adapter can be had for £80 on lensadapter4u, I did have to pay £10 to Ireland delivery not sure if they do free to UK.

Expecting a 50mm 1.8 lens to arrive from HDEW today, so it'll be fun to try that one out on the adapter too.

Not had the chance nor the weather to do any proper macro using the Viltrox and raynox yet but hopefully will do over the weekend.

I thought about the A7II also, I would have to sell my G80 and lenses to find one plus lenses for Sony mount but decided not to do so, I might for an A7rII, as everything about that is better than the 7II I believe. I'd be good with a couple of cheap primes and would use adapters for old MF lenses besides. I would miss the M43 for macro and wildlife though. I'd run both if I had the spare funds.

I'll keep an eye on this thread for your progress, good stuff to date cheers ;)
 
I'm not familiar with photolab but I do know that the exit data is correct for the likes of Flickr and I get the right lens profile in lightroom when editing.

That's odd. I don't see any lens profiles available in Lightroom for a raw file from the 70D with 55-250 (nor with the G80 with Commlite and 55-250).

PhotoLab has a profile for the 55-250 on the 70D, but no profile for handling the 55-250 on the g80 via Commlite.

The adapter can be had for £80 on lensadapter4u,

Thanks for that. Never come across them before. Very useful to know.

Expecting a 50mm 1.8 lens to arrive from HDEW today, so it'll be fun to try that one out on the adapter too.

Not had the chance nor the weather to do any proper macro using the Viltrox and raynox yet but hopefully will do over the weekend.

I'll be interested to see how that goes.

I thought about the A7II also, I would have to sell my G80 and lenses to find one plus lenses for Sony mount but decided not to do so, I might for an A7rII, as everything about that is better than the 7II I believe. I'd be good with a couple of cheap primes and would use adapters for old MF lenses besides. I would miss the M43 for macro and wildlife though. I'd run both if I had the spare funds.

I'm very fortunate in being able to run multiple systems.

I'll keep an eye on this thread for your progress, good stuff to date cheers ;)

Thanks.
 
About a month ago in this post I outlined my current approach to photographing botanical subjects, mainly flowers. This involves capturing videos and using them to create stacked images. I have been concentrating on stacking for some months and recently decided that I should take steps to adjust my approach to have a better balance between stacks and single-capture images. To that end I have done an exercise which I'll describe in this and subsequent posts with the following themes.

Why do this exercise?
Capturing the test images
Preparing a stacked image
Preparing a single-capture image
Sharpness/detail
Camera profiles
Gamut issues
Comparing different (combinations) of processors/editors and profiles
Capturing stacks compared to capturing single images
Tonality and haloing issues
Conclusions from this exercise


Continued in next post
 
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Why do this exercise?

Stacks obviously let you get greater depth of field than you can with single-capture images, and I like that. Also, with a stack you can often arrange it so you get good separation between the subject and a rather out of focus background, more often than is possible with single-image captures (if you like plenty of the subject in focus, like I do). However, there has turned out to be a less obvious benefit with the stacks, and that is tonality. Since I started using the Cinelike D profile for my botanical stacks with the G9 I have been getting tonality that I find pleasing to my eye, both the colours and the distribution of light and dark. I would like to be able to get similar tonality with my single-capture images, and that is what this exercise was mainly about, at least initially.

The simplest way of getting this tonality with single-capture images would be to shoot JPEGs, using the Cinelike D profile. But I would prefer to use raw for single-capture images. This may seem odd, as I am content using JPEGs (derived from video) for my stacks, but that is because I have no choice (if I want to capture using video, which I do, because the fast, 30 frames per second capturing makes it practical to work hand-held, which I very much prefer).

I might end up using JPEG for botanical single-capture images, but at this stage I would feel more comfortable retaining the additional flexibility of raw for dealing with some aspects such as highlights, noise and white balance. The noise issue is particularly pertinent because, as we shall see later, my single-image captures typically use higher ISOs than my stacks, and the (IMO) best option I have for noise reduction is DXO PhotoLab's PRIME noise reduction, which requires raw files to work on. I believe PhotoLab can also help with diffraction-softening arising from the use of apertures smaller than the "sweet spot" aperture. Again, as we shall see later, this tends to be the case with my single-image captures.

The final stage in my post processing is done in Lightroom for all my photos, stacks and single-capture images, flowers, insects, sunsets etc. I am familiar with it and find it easy and quick to make the sort of global and local adjustments I want to make, with very occasional use of Photoshop, with which Lightroom works pretty seamlessly. So I would prefer not to change this. The other processing/editing software I use a lot is DXO PhotoLab and Silkypix.

For invertebrates I process raw files in PhotoLab, producing DNG files which I then process in Silkypix, producing TIFF files which I then process in Lightroom. The PhotoLab and Silkypix stages are highly automated using presets, and I start the Lightroom stage with a preset. This approach follows on from selecting images for an initial longlist using Fast Picture Viewer. I then use a macro in Fast Picture Viewer to put the longlisted raw files into ISO-specific folders which makes applying ISO-specific PhotoLab presets quick and easy. Although this workflow involves several steps I can with very little effort get to the stage of having a longlist of photos which are easy to shortlist and finalise. This means that I can deal quite quickly with the typically hundreds of captures from a session photographing invertebrates and end up (on a good day) with a few nice ones without it soaking up so much of my time that I lose interest.

It is somewhat similar with stacks, the combination of software in this case being Panasonic's PhotoFun Studio which makes it easy to quickly view and choose which of the videos to use for stacking, Helicon Focus to do the stacking and Lightroom to finalise the images.

What I would like is a workflow for botanical single-image captures which lets me produce images with tonality similar to my stacks. The options I considered were using Lightroom by itself, using Silkypix followed by Lightroom, or starting with PhotoLab and then using either Lightroom or Silkypix followed by Lightroom.

There is also the issue of whether a single-capture image or a stack would be better for any particular subject. I wanted an approach that would let me decide during the post processing workflow which technique produced an image I liked best for a particular subject, rather than trying to decide out in the field whether to use a single-image capture or a stack; I wanted to be able to capture both and decide later which to use, and for it to be quick and easy to do the subsequent selection and processing.


Continued in next post
 
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Capturing the test images

I did two sesions in the garden, capturing images and videos of the 36 subjects shown below. (In this album at Flickr there are larger versions of all the illustrations used in these posts.)


1472 21 The 36 subjects
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

For reasons explained later, at the start of each session I captured a raw image of the panel with coloured swatches on a ColorChecker Passport, shown at the top left below.


1472 01 Example 1 - Captures
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

As the first step for each subject I set the camera white balance using the 18% grey panel on the ColorChecker Passsport. I then captured two or more aperture bracket sequences of the subject. (A single press of the shutter button activates seven exposures, from f/2.8 to f/22. In the illustration above we can see 21 captures from three aperture bracket sequences.)

I then captured two or more 6K post focus videos of the same scene. (In a post focus capture the camera captures a video as the focus first moves quickly to the front of the scene, then makes its way more slowly to the back of the scene and finally moves quickly back to where it started.) In the illustration above we can see the 3 post focus videos associated with the 21 aperture bracket captures.

As I was working hand-held this could all be done quite quickly. One of the sessions lasted about an hour and the other was around 20 minutes, so around 80 minutes in all. So with 36 scenes I spent on average around two minutes on each subject.


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Preparing a stacked image

When I had uploaded the images and videos to my PC I had a quick look through them and picked the scene shown below to explore the processing options.


1472 02 Compare 48f, B7,1 vs C1, whole images
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

As I wanted to produce single-capture images with similar tonality to my stacks I started by making a stacked image of the scene. I used PhotoFun Studio to look at the post focus videos (each one is only a few seconds long) to find one that looked like it might work (not too much hand-shake or subject movement). I then dragged that video into Helicon Focus, which extracted JPEGs from it and aligned them. I deleted the JPEGs from the beginning of the video where the focus was moving to the front of the scene and then looked through the JPEGs to choose where the scene would go out of focus and deleted the rest of the frames. This left 48 frames to stack.

Helicon Focus has several stacking methods, called Method A, Method B and Method C (and a legacy method used in earlier versions of the software which can still be used if required). Methods A and B each have two parameters called Radius and Smoothing, and Method C has one parameter, Smoothing. I tried a couple of stacks, one with Method B and one with Method C, as shown in the previous illustration. They look rather similar at that size, but if you look closer there are differences, as in the next illustration.


1472 03 Compare 48f, B7,1 vs C1 at 80pc annotated
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

The red arrows on the left point to "overlap halos". These occur where there are two things one behind the other and you want both in focus. Where they overlap, if the distance between them is large enough, you will get a halo. Unfortunately, with the type of scenes I photograph the distances often are large enough to cause visible halos. The red arrows on the right point to a different sort of halo, an "edge halo".

Would these particular halos be a problem? Not necessarily. They are not particularly easy to see, and it depends on how carefully you look at the image (I have the impression that most people don't look very closely) and it depends on how large the image is and whether you can zoom in on it to take a closer look. It also depends on the post processing applied to the stacked image. Post processing often involves increasing contrast, clarity etc and the more you do that the more visible any halos become. They can often be much easier to see than these (and almost impossible to miss in some cases). Here is an example which illustrates rather worse haloing.


1472 03a severe haloes
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

Specialised stacking software such as Helicon Focus and Zerene Stacker provide tools to help deal with halos and other problems, for example letting you look through the individual images used for the stack and find one where a problem area is properly in focus and making it easy to paint from there on to the stack to repair it. Unfortunately however with overlap halos none of the individual images has the problem area in focus. (I have illustrated this from 22:00 in this You Tube video.) You can sometimes cure overlap halos with cloning. This can vary from fairly quick and easy to rather tricky and very time-consuming, or in some cases pretty much impossible.

Sometimes, for example with edge haloes, you can get rid of haloes or reduce their visibility by using different stacking parameters or using a different stacking method. Another thing you can do to get rid of overlap halos is to get rid of the overlaps. That means that you need to bring the back of the in-focus area forwards and take the troublesome rear elements out of focus. The next illustration shows the area with severe haloes shown above but from a stack where I removed a lot of images from the back of the stack. Most of the overlap halos have disappeared, but some remain where there is overlap with a in-focus leaf which is nearer than those I removed. This approach may or may not be acceptable depending on how the image looks after enough images have been removed to make the haloes reduce enough to no longer be problematic.


1472 03b some severe haloes removed
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

For this particular exercise, this is the version I decided to use for comparison with single-capture images, with the whole image shown on the left and a closer view of part of it on the right.


1472 05 Compare 26f, B7,1 at 26pc vand 80pc
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr


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Preparing a single-capture image

With the Panasonic G9 and Olympus 60mm macro that I use for flowers and other botanical subjects I can use apertures from f/2.8 to f/22. Typically, at f/2.8 not enough of the subject is in focus for my liking, and at f/22 the background is too much in focus and too distracting for my liking. The reason I use aperture bracketing to capture sets of 7 images from f/2.8 to f/22 is so I can decide later what aperture I think gives the most pleasing result for a particular scene rather than trying to decide what aperture(s) to use out in the field.

For the first, one hour session I had the minimum shutter speed set to 1/60 sec and the ISO set to base ISO, which is ISO 200 on the G9. For each scene I set the exposure compensation to try to protect colours from bleaching out in bright areas, mostly -0.7, -0.3 and 0.0 EV (it was not a bright day - on bright days I often use larger exposure compensation values).

During each set of 7 captures, as the aperture progressively closed down from f/2.8 the shutter speed got slower. If it reached 1/60 sec before the end of the sequence the shutter speed remained at 1/60 sec for the remaining captures and the ISO increased by a stop for each successive capture. About five minutes into the second, 20 minute session, it struck me that I might have been using shutter speeds that were too low given that it was a bit breezy, so I raised the minimum shutter speed to 1/100 sec for the last few scenes.

Here are three of the single-image captures for the reference scene discussed above, at f/8, f/11 and f/16 from left to right, seen at around my normal viewing size, showing some petals at the back of the scene that I wanted in focus, indicated by the red arrows on the f/11 image.


1472 06 Compare singles F8,11,16 at 37pc annotated
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

Those petals were too soft for my taste in the f/8 and f/11 images, which suggested using the f/16 version. Here is what they looked liked closer in.


1472 07 Compare singles F8,11,16 at 100pc
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

With the light level not being very high, even at the minimum shutter speed of 1/60 sec, at f/16 the ISO had been raised to ISO 640. Here is a comparison of the stack versus the f/16 single-image capture, processed in Lightroom at this stage (more complicated processing comes later).


1472 08 Compare 30f B7,1 LR at 26pc with single F16 LR at 25pc
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

Aesthetically I'm not keen on either version. I would rather that the red flower in the centre of the stack (shown closer in below) was less out of focus (like for example in the single-image capture)


1472 09 Compare 30f B7,1 LR at 60pc with single F16 LR at 57pc
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

Also in the stack, I don't like the way one leaf on the stem at the top right is much more in focus than the others on the same stem (that could be cured easily enough with some blurring to make it more like the next leaf down, but the red flower could not easily be shown more in focus). On the other hand the background looks too cluttered for my taste in the single-capture version. However, these two images turned out to be useful in probing some other issues.


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Sharpness/detail

One such issue is sharpness and detail. It is to be expected that the stack will be sharper and have more detail in areas that are not within the depth of field of the single-capture image. However, looking at the above illustration it looks to me as though the stack is sharper everywhere, including the best focused areas of the single-capture image. This too is not surprising as the single-capture image use f/16 while the stack used f/2.8. At f/16 the 60mm macro has a significant loss of detail/sharpness because of diffraction. f/2.8 is not the sweet spot aperture for the 60mm macro, which is around f/4 (see the first chart in this ephotozine review of the Olympus 60mm macro.) However, it is close to it, and significantly better than f/16 (at least in the centre, not so much at the edges). Also, the single-capture image used a much slower shutter speed, 1/60 sec versus 1/640 sec for the stack, with more opportunity for hand-shake and/or subject movement in the breeze to reduce sharpness/detail, depending on the effectiveness of the G9's image stabilisation (the 60mm macro is not image-stabilised). And the single-capture image used ISO 640 compared to base ISO 200 for the stack, potentially reducing sharpness/detail further because of additional noise in the final image and/or stronger noise reduction.

As with halos and other stacking anomalies, whether this reduction in sharpness/detail would matter depends on factors such as the size of the viewed image, whether zooming in is possible, the visual acuity of the viewer and what one considers to be important and/or what one notices in looking at images. For example, colour rendition or composition may be more important to some people than sharpness/detail.

It is possible that additional processing might increase the appearance of sharpness/detail in some cases. For example, in the following illustration we see the stack on the left, the f/16 shot in the middle and on the right a version of the f/16 shot which has been processed by Topaz Sharpen AI, in this case using its "Stabilize" option, which (see here) is claimed to reduce the effects of motion blur.


1472 10 Compare 30 B7,1 at 100pc vs Single F16 LR at 95pc vs LR AI Stabilize at 95pc
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr


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Camera profiles

Like other cameras the G9 has various camera profiles (known as "Photo Styles") such as "Vivid" and "Natural" which affect how out of the camera JPEG images are rendered. I have been using the "Cinelike D" profile with my G9 for capturing post focus videos from which to extract JPEGs to stack. This is a "flat" profile which produces subdued colours and contrast and, I believe, increases the available dynamic range that can be captured, which is good for protecting highlights which is particularly important for me.

Some photo editing software can make use of camera profiles when processing raw files, and this includes Lightroom, PhotoLab and Silkypix.

For example, Lightroom typically uses a built-in profile such as Adobe Standard, Adobe Vivid or Adobe Landscape. It also has some camera-specific built-in camera profiles. For example, when dealing with G9 raw files, Lightroom offers profiles with the same names as the Photostyles available on the G9, including Cinelike D.

Lightroom can also use camera profiles constructed from a raw image of the colour swatches on a "colorchecker" card or device such as the X-rite ColorChecker Passsport. You capture a raw image of the coloured squares and then use software to construct a camera profile from it. You can either use software from the supplier of the colorChecker or you can use third party software, such as Adobe DNG Profile Editor. Using different software produces camera profiles that produce different results. And when using Adobe DNG Profile Editor there are various parameters which can be adjusted, so you can produce a wide range of camera profiles from the same colorchecker image.

It is often said that using a hand-crafted camera profile is a way to ensure that the colours are rendered exactly right, not just for a particular camera, but even for a particular scene. However, the fact that you can make different camera profiles from the same reference image means that at most one of that vast range of possible camera profiles will do this; good luck finding which of them it is! However, that doesn't mean that hand-crafted camera profiles are of no use - they may indeed help get colour rendering that you like.

So, Lightroom has in-built profiles including one for Cinelike D, and can use hand-crafted profiles. PhotoLab can use hand-crafted profiles. It has profiles that are specific to particular cameras, for some cameras, but not for the "photo styles" for the camera, and it doesn't have any profiles al all for Panasonic cameras. Silkypix can't use hand-crafted profiles but it does have built-in profiles which know about the "photo styles" for Panasonic cameras, including the G9, and including Cinelike D.

The following illustration shows four JPEGs derived from the same raw file using Lightroom with the same settings with one exception - a different profile was used for each of them, as follows:

Top left - The built-in Adobe Standard profile
Top right - The built-in Adobe G9 Cinelike D profile
Bottom left - A hand-crafted profile created from a colorchecker image captured at the start of the first session. The profile was created using the Xrite ColorChecker software. The raw file was converted to DNG using Adobe DNG converter so as to be usable by the Xrite software. There were no options to be selected in this case.
Bottom right - A hand-crafted profile created from the same colorchecker image captured at the start of the first session. The profile was created using Adobe DNG Profile Editor, using the same DNG file as for the Xrite profile. Default parameters were used in Adobe DNG Profile Editor except that the "Camera Cinelike D (Panasonic G9)" profile offered by DNG Profile Editor was selected as the Base Profile.


1472 11 Compare Adobe Std, Neutral, camera CNED, GA CNED
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

All four renditions are different, in terms of hues, saturation and levels and distribution of lightness. (As with other image comparisons, the differences appear much more marked when flipping back and forth between pairs of images than moving one's eyes between them with all four on the same screen.)

Is any of them nearest to the real colours? I couldn't tell. I have been back out to look at the flowers several times but the light was different from when the photo was captured, the colours change from day to day as the flowers age, and we have had windy conditions which moved the flowers around and I couldn't identify which of them were the ones in the photo (and there is a huge range of colours in the flowers).


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Gamut issues

Different devices such as screens and printers can only show a subset of all the possible colours that the human eye can see, and those subsets are different for different devices. Some screens are limited to (at most) the colours of the sRGB colour space, and different models can display different proportions of the full range of sRGB colours. sRGB is the colour space generally used for displaying images on the internet.

Some screens can display the wider Adobe RGB colour space, although as with with sRGB they vary as to how much of the full range of Adobe RGB colours they can actually display. Some printers can display a wider range of colours than Adobe RGB, and some applications such as Lightroom use a very wide colour space internally such as ProPhoto RGB, and then convert to sRGB, AdobeRGB or a specific printer colour space when producing for example JPEG or TIFF images.

It is possible for an image, when in Lightroom or a similar editor using a big colour space, to have colours which can't be displayed in the colour space the image will be output to, such as sRGB or Adobe RGB. These colours are said to be outside of the destination colour gamut. When producing a JPEG, TIFF etc image the editing software has to change these out of gamut colours to colours that can be displayed in the destination colour space. I don't know if there is a standard method for doing these colour substitutions. If not, and different software uses different methods, this would add extra variability to the rendition of a particular image, depending on what software was used and how much, if any, of the colours were out of gamut.

Lightroom and similar applications (Silkypix for example) have a facility for "soft proofing" which lets you see any parts of the image which have colours which can't be displayed in the chosen destination colour space. The following illustration shows in bright red for four different renditions of the same image the areas that are outside of the sRGB colour space. They are:

Top left - The built-in Adobe Standard profile
Top right - The built-in Adobe Neutral profile
Bottom left - The hand-crafted profile produced with Adobe DNG Profile Editor
Bottom right - The built-in Adobe G9 Cinelike D profile


1472 12 Compare sRGB gamut warnings Adobe Std, Neutral, camera CNED, GA CNED
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

A significant proportion of the image has out of gamut colours, and the areas concerned vary significantly in extent and location as between the four renditions with the four different profiles.

The following illustration shows the same four-way screenshot as the previous one, and flips back and forth between that and another one which is the same except it shows what is outside of the wider Adobe RGB colour space. As can be seen the out of gamut areas are smaller, but in three of the four cases still of significant size.


1472 13 Compare-sRGB-vs-Adobe-RGB-gamut-warnings
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

Since I create my images with on line viewing in mind I produce JPEGs in the sRGB colour space. It turns out that many of my botanical images have areas of out of gamut colours, sometimes rather large areas, so some of the continuing difficulties I have with colours, especially reds, may simply be because the sRGB colour space I am outputting to can't represent some of the colours in the scenes I am photographing. This might or might not matter - it depends on how big a change the editor software makes to the colours when substituting in-gamut colours for the out-of-gamut colours in a scene.

It is not just a matter of colours looking wrong. Sometimes a lot of similar colours get translated into exactly the same destination colour. This can result for example in fine texture on a red petal disappearing into a featureless and unnatural area of a single, often rather bright, lurid colour. I think it is a horrible effect and makes images unusable. You can try changing the hue/saturation/intensity of the area in order to bring back some texturing. That sometimes works, but other times it moves the colours so far away from reality as to make the image unusable.

These issues incline me towards more of a "good enough"/"best I can manage" approach to colours rather than continuing to strive for what appears to be an unachievable goal of developing a workflow which will result in my images having the "true" or "correct" colours.


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Comparing different (combinations) of processors/editors and profiles

Having explored some of the issues using Lightroom, I was now ready to see if I could get better results for single-capture images by adding PhotoLab and/or Silkypix to the workflow. Comparing the stacked image to several Lightroom single-capture images that used different profiles it seemed to me that the single-capture version using Lightroom's inbuilt Cinelike D profile was fairly close in tonality to what I was getting with the stacks. So I decided to use that version for comparison with what I could do by adding PhotoLab and/or Silkypix. Here we have the stacked version on the left and the Lightroom Cinelike D version on the right.


1472 14 Compare whole image 30f B7,1 LR vs F16 LR Adobe CNED
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

I processed the image with Silkypix followed by Lightroom and PhotoLab followed by Lightroom, using various of the inbuilt camera profiles in the three products, and in PhotoLab and Lightroom using the hand-crafted Cinelike D profile I had created from a ColorChecker Passport image.

PhotoLab did not produce pleasing tonality using the hand-crafted Cinelike D profile. PhotoLab did not have an inbuilt Cinelike D profile and its other inbuilt profiles did not produce tonality to match that of the stacked image. Silkypix produced pleasing tonality but, like Lightroom, lacked the pleasing fine textural detail that PhotoLab produced. After a fair amount of trial and error I concluded that the most pleasing combination of textural detail and tonality came from using PhotoLab with its inbuilt Generic Camera Default profile and exporting a DNG file for editing in Lightroom using Lightroom's inbuilt Cinelike D profile.

I tested this approach by using it on the other 35 test images and concluded that it seemed to be quick and easy to use and produced results that were easy to finalise with minor image-specific adjustments in Lightroom.


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Capturing stacks compared to capturing single images

I now wanted to test the approach of having single-capture images and stacked images for each subject and choosing whichever worked best for each scene, so I produced a stacked image for each of the 36 scenes.

As can be seen below the 36 scenes had a good variety of colours, including some reds and blue/purple colours which can sometimes be problematic.


1472 21 The 36 subjects
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

As can be seen below most of the single-image captures that I picked as most to my liking had fairly small apertures, resulting in some quite slow shutter speeds, with a lot at the minimum shutter speed that I had set on the camera, and ISOs rising to ISO 1600. This made some of the images susceptible to blur from hand-shake and subject movement (it was intermittently breezy), noise from the higher ISOs and/or loss of detail from noise reduction, and diffraction from the smaller apertures.


1472 25 Key EXIF data for the 36 image pairs
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

In contrast the stacks all used f/2.8. This was chosen so as to give relatively fast shutter speeds so as to reduce blur from hand-shake. The slowest shutter speed was 1/125 sec, faster than all but two of the single-captures, and twice as fast as the 1/60 sec used for almost half of the single-captures. Only 6 of the 36 stacks had a shutter speed slower than 1/250 sec. f/2.8 is not the optimum aperture for sharpness, but it is better than f/11 and f/16 used for some of the single-capture images. All the stacks used base ISO, minimising noise.

The stacks therefore had considerable advantages in terms of basic image sharpness. As long as the shutter speed is fast enough for the individual source images to be sharp, hand movement while the stack video is captured is generally not a problem as long as the subject doesn't wander so far towards an edge of the frame as to compromise composition. Subject movement is a different matter. If all the parts of the subject are moving together the movement is similar in effect to hand/camera movement. However, if parts of the subject are moving somewhat independently, as is often the case, subject movement can cause stacking problems, including sometimes complete failure. Added to this disadvantage is the generally more serious problem of stacking haloes. It didn't notice them with any of these 36 stacks, but stacks can suffer other problems such as different sorts of haloes such as "detached haloes" offset from the in-focus edges, loss of detail, colour degradation and noisy and/or posterised backgrounds.

Each method has its own advantages when it comes to flexibility of composition. Each capture in an aperture bracket set has a different balance between how much of the subject is in focus and how the background is rendered. In contrast, with a stack you can choose how much of the subject to have in focus (although you may have to have less of it in focus than you want in order to get rid of difficult overlap haloes), but you can't choose how the background is rendered if, as I did, you use the same aperture the whole time. I think this tends to give backgrounds a somewhat bland appearance - I like more going on in my backgrounds some of the time, as long is it seems complementary to the subject rather than being distracting. That is one of the reasons I sometimes prefer single-capture images with smaller apertures, so as to get more interesting and varied backgrounds.

So, each method has its own advantages and disadvantages.


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Tonality and haloing issues

Comparing the single-capture image and stack for each scene as I worked my way through the test images several things became apparent. One was that although I had been content with the tonality of the single-capture images, when I compared them to the stacked images I was not so pleased with some of them. In a number of cases the stacks had a noticeably richer tonality which was much more pleasing to my eye. I tried adjusting those single-capture images to bring them in line with the stacked images, but I didn't do very well with that for some of the images. It must be a failure of my post processing abilities, because I was working from raw and so it surely must have been possible to achieve a matching tonality. However, I did not spend long on each image, and so perhaps if I spent longer on them I could make a better match. And if I found a set of parameters that would produce a better match most of the time that would be fine. However, as it stands I got a look that I liked from the stacks with very little effort that I couldn't easily match in some of the single-capture images.

On the other hand a number of the stacks presented difficulties because of halos. As the exercise was dragging on I decided to not retouch any overlap halos as this can be rather time-consuming. Putting some effort into it might have made some of the problematic stacks usable, but with all but one of the problem stacks I had the impression that even if I could hide the halos the amount of work involved would not be worthwhile.

One of the problems I find with halos is that I can become over-sensitive about them, in the sense that sometimes I see a halo, or think I see one, but when I look at the source images I find that the halo is there in the source images and was nothing to do with the stacking. Shadows cast by the nearer of two overlapping elements are one source of this, and some petals have coloured edges which can be similarly misleading (and/or give the impression of chromatic aberration or colour fringing).

In the following illustration we see a stack on the right (at 150%) and one of the source images on the left. The green arrows point to a purple line that I assumed was a halo, with a white halo outside it indicated by the yellow arrows. But as we can see on the left, both the purple and white line are there in the source image. In contrast, the red arrows point to what I think are genuine halos. The blue arrows point to what I initially thought was an extremely wide halo but which on looking at the whole image turned out to be a partially in focus petal against an out of focus petal behind it, possibly with a shadow confusing the issue further.


1472 22 A phantom halo, and real haloes
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr


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Conclusions from this exercise

Having prepared all 36 pairs of images I went through them choosing the one of each pair that I preferred (including doing this for pairs where I didn't feel either version was satisfactory for my purposes). In some cases I adjusted/reworked one of a pair to try to improve it based on something I liked about the other one in the pair. I ended up selecting 12 single-capture images and 24 stacks. These 36 images are in this album at Flickr (along with two single images at the end which I liked but for which I didn't capture a video for some reason.)

I then considered which of these 36 images I regarded as usable for my purposes, a "keeper". I thought that 11 of the 12 single-capture images and 23 of the 24 stacks were usable. Given the shooting conditions (intermittently breezy and not the brightest of days) and the speed I worked at, around two minutes per subject, I think this was a very acceptable success rate, and I think it was a higher success rate than it would have been had I been shooting only stacks (as I have been doing a lot recently) or only single-images (as I did all almost all the time before I got more heavily into stacking in the past few months).

I then considered which of these 36 images I would regard as "favourites". It is difficult to pin down what I mean by that with any rigour, but composition, clarity, colour and overally tonality certainly come into it. Some have imperfections, particulary the stacks. If I look carefully at stacks, looking closely for haloes in particular, I can often find something untoward, but then again if I look closely at my single-capture images I can often see things that I don't like about them too. I suppose that rather than seeking technical perfection I'm more interested in trying to relate to the overall gestalt of an image as long as there isn't anything sufficiently jarring to get in the way of that. Using that approach I ended up picking 4 of the 12 single-capture images and 8 of the 24 stacks as favourites. That seemed like a rather high proportion to me; I would generally expect less than that, especially given that this was an essentially technical exercise. These 12 images are in this album at Flickr. [TO BE DONE: and I have posted them in this thread in the forum.]

The overall conclusion I draw from this exercise is that I will find it practical and beneficial to use a combination of aperture bracketing and post focus stacking for botanical subject matter.
 
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As to the A7ii, I haven't found a use for it yet. ..

And for invertebrates? I don't see the A7ii being useful for this. I have been over the issues in detail over the course of many previous posts in this thread in relation to micro four thirds and APS-C, with various combinations of macro lenses, reversed lenses, extension tubes and teleconverters, and also with close-up lenses, and I kept coming back to using close-up lenses with my bridge cameras as the best option, for my preferred ways of working and usual subject matter. Given my use of very small apertures and the implications of that for loss of image quality from difraction, I don't see any prospect of the A7ii being an improvement. In fact it might not even be as good as APS-C or micro four thirds because I would only be able to use minimum nominal apertures of f/22 with the A7ii, equivalent to f/11 with micro four thirds or around f/14 with APS-C, reducing the depth of field by up to half.

Hi Nick.

Hope you are well and enjoying your photography. I read the above with interest as I recently swapped all my Fuji kit for Sony - an A7Rii, 10-24mm, and 90mm macro. I love to shoot landscapes and I'm pretty confident that I'm near the best you can get with the Sony kit but I'm struggling to get going with macro and reading your post it's maybe not surprising!

Cutting to the chase... I could chop the Sony 90mm in for something like a Panasonic GX80 and Olympus 60mm - do you think this would be a sensible choice for my usual macro work, ie medium to large sized bugs (flies, bees, butterflies, dragonflies etc) ? The greater depth of field appeals as does the ability to focus bracket for stacking in post (I have dabbled with this in the past and fancy another go).

Any advice or opinions welcome!

Thanks, Mike.
 
Hi Nick.

Hope you are well and enjoying your photography.

Hi Mike, I'm fine thanks but I've not been doing much photography recently; not any actually. As far as invertebrates go I'm not seeing the range of subjects that I have in the past - that has been getting progressively worse over the years. It's a bit depressing, and I've got tired of continually photographing the same small range of subjects. And having looked back over the past 12 years (see here), I'm not convinced that over that time my image quality has improved much from improved capture technique or improved equipment. The improvements have almost all come from post processing I think, and I don't know that I can take that much further. There are other techniques I could use that I know other people get superb results with, stacking for example, or using larger apertures, getting out on site at dawn and using natural light and tripod, making the effort to travel further to find more interesting subjects. But none of that attracts me at the moment.

With botanical stuff it's a bit different. I'm still attracted to the beauty and endless variety that flowers and light etc can present, it's just that I haven't been motivated to do any of that either for a while.

So I'm having a bit of a rest from photography and doing other things. Quite probably I'll get back into it - I do tend to have "rest periods" from time to time. I'm still keeping an eye on this forum and several over at dpreview, and getting into a few discussions at dpreview, but not posting much by way of images (none at all here for a while now, and very few at dpreview).

I read the above with interest as I recently swapped all my Fuji kit for Sony - an A7Rii, 10-24mm, and 90mm macro. I love to shoot landscapes and I'm pretty confident that I'm near the best you can get with the Sony kit

That's the one thing I think my A7ii may turn out to be useful for; we have lovely light and colours on the estuary, and great cloud formations. But in my current unenthusiastic state that is still on the "To Do" shelf.

but I'm struggling to get going with macro and reading your post it's maybe not surprising!

Cutting to the chase... I could chop the Sony 90mm in for something like a Panasonic GX80 and Olympus 60mm - do you think this would be a sensible choice for my usual macro work, ie medium to large sized bugs (flies, bees, butterflies, dragonflies etc) ? The greater depth of field appeals as does the ability to focus bracket for stacking in post (I have dabbled with this in the past and fancy another go).

Any advice or opinions welcome!

Thanks, Mike.

The Sony 90mm macro is meant to be a wonderful macro lens; I seem to recall reading that it was the second sharpest lens that DXO have ever tested. And with the A7rii you could crop plenty to make up for some of the DOF that gets lost with larger sensors and still get wonderful quality images.

Still, if it isn't working for you none of that helps. Panasonic MFT with Olympus 60mm macro might work ok for you, at least for some things. The setup would be relatively small and light, and the tiny 60mm macro is plenty sharp. It would give you focus bracketing and also post focus, which is what I use for botanical stacking. However, it may be a bit short for dragonflies and butterflies and get you uncomfortably close to them, and the magnification might be a bit marginal for smaller flies and bees. For them you might have to add extension tubes, which personally I don't like to do in the field, especially since if you are using smallish apertures any dust etc on the lens will show up all too easily. You could go smaller by adding a close-up lens, which obviously doesn't have that problem, but you might find the working distance rather small.

As to the GX80 in particular, and given you may want to do some stacking, you might want to pursue the issue raised here to try to find out if it is real or not. It doesn't sound likely to me, only getting one second of post focus video (which is what it boils down to) but I've discussed it previously with that poster and he is very clear about what he is experiencing.

I would be inclined to stick with the Sony setup for a while and see if you get more comfortable with it for macro. Presumably you are going to keep if for landscape anyway. If things do fall into place with it for macro you may find you get some very nice results indeed from it. And I'd do some experiments to see how far you can crop it and still get image quality you are content with. That might help with limitations of DOF and magnification.
 
Hi Mike, I'm fine thanks but I've not been doing much photography recently; not any actually. As far as invertebrates go I'm not seeing the range of subjects that I have in the past - that has been getting progressively worse over the years. It's a bit depressing, and I've got tired of continually photographing the same small range of subjects.
And having looked back over the past 12 years (see here), I'm not convinced that over that time my image quality has improved much from improved capture technique or improved equipment. The improvements have almost all come from post processing I think, and I don't know that I can take that much further. There are other techniques I could use that I know other people get superb results with, stacking for example, or using larger apertures, getting out on site at dawn and using natural light and tripod, making the effort to travel further to find more interesting subjects. But none of that attracts me at the moment.

Glad to hear you are well Nick. Spookily similar feelings here! Not done a huge amount of photography this year and generally feel like the macro work is stagnating to a degree. Really just an excuse for a walk to get me away from the TV for a hour and very few decent bugs to shoot. Was out last night and it feels like autumn up here already (Edinburgh) - hope to see a dragonfly or two before the season is out.

The Sony 90mm macro is meant to be a wonderful macro lens; I seem to recall reading that it was the second sharpest lens that DXO have ever tested. And with the A7rii you could crop plenty to make up for some of the DOF that gets lost with larger sensors and still get wonderful quality images.

Still, if it isn't working for you none of that helps. Panasonic MFT with Olympus 60mm macro might work ok for you, at least for some things. The setup would be relatively small and light, and the tiny 60mm macro is plenty sharp. It would give you focus bracketing and also post focus, which is what I use for botanical stacking. However, it may be a bit short for dragonflies and butterflies and get you uncomfortably close to them, and the magnification might be a bit marginal for smaller flies and bees. For them you might have to add extension tubes, which personally I don't like to do in the field, especially since if you are using smallish apertures any dust etc on the lens will show up all too easily. You could go smaller by adding a close-up lens, which obviously doesn't have that problem, but you might find the working distance rather small.

As to the GX80 in particular, and given you may want to do some stacking, you might want to pursue the issue raised here to try to find out if it is real or not. It doesn't sound likely to me, only getting one second of post focus video (which is what it boils down to) but I've discussed it previously with that poster and he is very clear about what he is experiencing.

I would be inclined to stick with the Sony setup for a while and see if you get more comfortable with it for macro. Presumably you are going to keep if for landscape anyway. If things do fall into place with it for macro you may find you get some very nice results indeed from it. And I'd do some experiments to see how far you can crop it and still get image quality you are content with. That might help with limitations of DOF and magnification.

Some really good points there as usual - thanks a lot for the comprehensive reply. I think you're right, I need to persevere with my current kit and look at my technique: I've been manual focusing - basically set to minimum focus distance - and moving myself using the 'speckles' to guide me as to what is in focus. I think I'll try moving back a bit to gain some depth of field (maybe with autofocus) and then crop in heavily to make use of some of the megapixels. Not sure how accurate the speckles are at macro distances but my hit rate has been very low of late which has been frustrating.

Hope you enjoy your break and return with some new enthusiasm in due course :)


Here's a couple of recent efforts with the A7Rii and 90mm just for interest (actually looking back I'm not unhappy with the results I think it's maybe just the low hit rate which is the issue)


Common Darter
by Mike Smith, on Flickr


Fly Macro
by Mike Smith, on Flickr


Norwegian wasp (Dolichovespula norwegica)
by Mike Smith, on Flickr


Face fly (Musca autumnalis)
by Mike Smith, on Flickr
 
Glad to hear you are well Nick. Spookily similar feelings here! Not done a huge amount of photography this year and generally feel like the macro work is stagnating to a degree. Really just an excuse for a walk to get me away from the TV for a hour and very few decent bugs to shoot. Was out last night and it feels like autumn up here already (Edinburgh) - hope to see a dragonfly or two before the season is out.

Some really good points there as usual - thanks a lot for the comprehensive reply. I think you're right, I need to persevere with my current kit and look at my technique: I've been manual focusing - basically set to minimum focus distance - and moving myself using the 'speckles' to guide me as to what is in focus. I think I'll try moving back a bit to gain some depth of field (maybe with autofocus) and then crop in heavily to make use of some of the megapixels. Not sure how accurate the speckles are at macro distances but my hit rate has been very low of late which has been frustrating.

I can understand a low hit rate being offputting Mike, but look at the quality of those! I think the first one is an absolute gem. the second is at least as good as the best I ever get with that type of fly, and in fact probably better. I think the fourth is rather good too.

I wasn't impressed with the focus peaking on the A7ii. It looked better than the focus peaking I get on my MFT cameras (this was for down the garden/across the road type distances), but the results were surprisingly erratic in terms of where the centre of focus fell.

Hope you enjoy your break and return with some new enthusiasm in due course :)

After doing that post I found myself processing some images from earlier in the year. I did it in a rather more considered way than has often been the case in the past, and as it happens that led to a better understanding of one of my post processing issues and a change for the better in my processing workflow. Thanks for the nudge. :)
 
Thanks again for the advice and encouragement Nick - onward and upward! :)
I think your photos are fine - most people have low hit rates when it comes to insects. I recently got a decent photo of a conopid fly.
However, it was the fourth one I had photographed - the first two were so bad that I only kept them because it was unusual. Most of them time it does not matter - unless it is the first time you have seen them.

ConopidFlyIMG_5926 by davholla2002, on Flickr
 
The journey continues. My photographic enthusiasm has returned and things have once more moved on a little. At the beginning of April I wrote "I feel pretty much settled at the moment in using the FZ330 for insects etc." Some time after that I tried using the G9 again for invertebrates. One of the problems I had previously encountered with the G9 was that I had to change between achromats (mainly Raynox 150 and 250) much more often than with the FZ330 (with which I could use the Raynox 150 almost all the time). This involved getting achromats in and out of boxes and unscrewing and screwing them on to the camera lens and each other. I found this possible but awkward to do one-handed (with the other hand holding the camera). I found this frequent changing back and forth disruptive to my flow of working, disinclining me to use the G9.

Before trying the G9 again I altered how I stored and deployed the Raynoxes. I took off the step rings that attached them to the camera lens and each other, and instead mounted them in their spring-loaded adapters. I also put them into containers with no tops. This made switching between them, and stacking two together, much easier to do one-handed than the previous arrangement, and much faster. I then had a period of using this setup. It was based on a limited number of attempts because I was, and continue to be, demotivated by the small number of invertebrate subjects I'm finding and the lack of variety in what I do find. It's a bit chicken and egg, because my demotivation has led to me not going out much to the local nature reserves (on the few occasions when I have, I encountered the same issue of limited numbers and variety, reinforcing the demotivation).

Despite the relatively limited usage, I was pleased with the image quality I was getting with the G9, and that encouraged me to use it in preference to the FZ330. It seemed that I had found a new "go to" arrangement for insects etc.

It didn't last. I still wasn't convinced about whether I was really getting better image quality with the G9 or whether I was imagining it (wanting it, assuming it must be true or whatever). So I used the FZ330 for a session or two, and then a session with both of them and then perhaps (I don't recall exactly) some sessions sometimes using one sometimes the other. This confirmed my feeling that I really did prefer using the FZ330. It has a larger usable zoom ratio (around 6X) than the G9 used with my favourite 45-175 (less than 4X), and this means the FZ330 is better for the sequences I like to do where I vary from close-in shots to wider "environmental" shots, and various framings in between. Also, the FZ330 has a larger FF equivalent maximum focal length (600mm) than the 45-175 (350mm), and it is the larger magnification this brings, coupled with the 6X zoom range, that makes the FZ330 with a Raynox 150 good for the majority of my invertebrate shots. It also means that with the FZ330 I am more often working with the Raynox 150's nice 200mm or so working distance rather than the shorter 120mm or so with the Raynox 250 that I have to use quite a lot of the time on the G9.

Better image quality from the G9 could make it worthwhile putting up with these handling issues. However, when I looked at FZ330 images, recent ones and delving back into my archives, I realised that some of them still struck me as being rather appealing, and perhaps as good as the best of the G9 images. A complication here is that while all this has been going on I have been working on my post processing, with some help from ideas I have picked up from some detailed (albeit sometimes acrimonious) discussions at dpreview. I think this has helped with some of the issues I had with the more difficult to handle small sensor, noisy, lower dynamic range FZ330 raw files. This has left me undecided as between the G9 and FZ330 for invertebrates. Indeed, a couple of days ago I prepared (yet another) set of images from different cameras (nine this time), from 2009 to 2019, from 1/2.3", MFT and APS-C cameras, with 6 mpix to 20 mpix sensors, some shot as raw and some shot as JPEG. I removed the Exif data and used them in a post at dpreview to illustrate how they all looked pretty indistinguishable to me. A brave soul had a go at identifying which image came from which camera. The result of that was consistent with my feeling that there was not a lot of difference between them. I will post the nine images in subsequent posts.

This leaves me still undecided between the FZ330 and G9 for invertebrates.

For botanical subjects, I have no such doubts. The G9, used with a macro lens rather than achromats, is proving highly enjoyable to use and is giving me both stills and stacks that I like the look of. Since starting to use the G9 I have from time to time used some other cameras for flowers etc, including the FZ200, because I find it interesting and a bit more challenging with less sophisticated tools, but while being enjoyable these sessions have reinforced just how much I like the G9 for this subject matter.

For photos of larger things, I don't do much by way of common birds in flight, but when I do my Canon 70D and 55-250 STM remains the only setup which I am comfortable using and which gives me results I like (indeed the only one that gives me any results at all for a lot of the opportunities). For skyscapes/sunsets, a few days ago I at last tested the A7ii for a high contrast sunset. I had to work through a bit of frustration and failure before I realised how to drive it effectively (I had a nightmare time not being able to get it into focus), but once I had that sorted out it worked well and I think delivered the goods. The results from the test session are in this album at Flickr. All but one are merged exposure brackets, two of which are panoramas of merged exposure brackets. Lightroom made it remarkably simple to produce these.
 
For photos of larger things, I don't do much by way of common birds in flight, but when I do my Canon 70D and 55-250 STM remains the only setup which I am comfortable using and which gives me results I like (indeed the only one that gives me any results at all for a lot of the opportunities). For skyscapes/sunsets, a few days ago I at last tested the A7ii for a high contrast sunset. I had to work through a bit of frustration and failure before I realised how to drive it effectively (I had a nightmare time not being able to get it into focus), but once I had that sorted out it worked well and I think delivered the goods. The results from the test session are in this album at Flickr. All but one are merged exposure brackets, two of which are panoramas of merged exposure brackets. Lightroom made it remarkably simple to produce these.

Do you find that 250 gives you enough reach? I took some photos with my Tamron 150-600 mm and even with Swans most of them I used more than 250 mm.
 
In the previous post I mentioned a set of nine images of invertebrates captured over the past decade with various cameras, images which, despite their varied subjects, seem to me to be rather similar in terms of image quality - details, textures, tonality. I am posting five of them in this post and the other four in the following post. There are 1300 pixel high versions in this album at Flickr.

These all used close-up lenses rather than a macro lens. The images are in no particular order and used these cameras:
  • Canon S3is, 1/2.3" sensor, 6 megapixel sensor
  • Canon SX10is, 1/2.3" sensor, 10 megapixel sensor
  • Panasonic FZ200, 1/2.3" sensor, 12 megapixel sensor
  • Panasonic FZ330, 1/2.3" sensor, 12 megapixel sensor
  • Panasonic G3, micro four thirds, 16 megapixel sensor
  • Panasonic G5, micro four thirds, 16 megapixel sensor
  • Panasonic G80, micro four thirds, 16 megapixel sensor
  • Panasonic G9, micro four thirds, 20 megapixel sensor
  • Canon 70D, APS-C, 20 megapixel sensor
#1

1535 1 0735 14 2015_06_04 P1830313_DxO LR 1300
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

#2

1535 2 1081 01 G3 P1710921_DxO 0100RAW01cP SP7 LR6 1300h
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

#3

1535 3 1081 07 G5 1063 16 2016_03_22 P1140801_DxO RAW01a100 SP7 LR6 1300h-2
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

#4

1535 4 1173 68 2017_05_22 P1260462_DxO 0100RAW01cP SP7 LR6 1300h
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

#5

1535 5 2009_04_01 IMG_9279 SP7 LR7 1400-3_AIG 1300h
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr
 
Do you find that 250 gives you enough reach? I took some photos with my Tamron 150-600 mm and even with Swans most of them I used more than 250 mm.

Only some of the time. I stand on a slightly raised bank (a sea wall) with a little boating lake in front of me where the birds congregate and the estuary behind me, where the gulls spend time on the mud flats. (On a good day) there is a fair amount of flying back and forth, so they sometimes come quite close to me and there are opportunities to photograph them at the same level as me, or even a bit beneath me. As well of course from underneath.

1330 093 2018_06_21 IMG_9095_DxO RAW LR7 1400h by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

1330 090 2018_06_21 IMG_9058_DxO RAW LR7 1400h by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

1330 070 2018_06_21 IMG_8885_DxO RAW LR6 1400h by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

1330 071 2018_06_21 IMG_8886_DxO RAW LR6 1400h by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

1330 069 2018_06_21 IMG_8882_DxO RAW LR6 1400h by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

And occasionally something other than gulls

1362 32 2018_08_21IMG_2700_DxO RAW LR7 1400h by gardenersassistant, on Flickr
 
The journey continues. That is a bit of a surprise actually as I expected my journey to be over by now because 18 months ago I was diagnosed with pleural mesothelioma. This is a form of cancer associated with exposure to asbestos with a life expectancy of 12 to 18 months from diagnosis. However, much to the surprise of the medical folk, despite my deciding not to have any treatment (because it doesn't do much good) the mesothelioma seems to have slowly regressed and at the most recent review there was no evidence of it whatsoever. This is, apparently, extraordinarily unusual, and has resulted in an apparent difference of opinion between leading two experts in the field as to whether I ever had mesothelioma in the first place (Roughly "It doesn't regress spontaneously, so he can't have had it" versus "The biopsy shows he does, or at least did, have it"). That remains unresolved, but in the meantime I am apparently in good health for someone my age, happily doing heavy gardening, fast albeit short power walks, and plenty of kneeling and crawling around doing close-up/macro photography.

The relevance of all this to my photographic journey is the threat of imminent death loosened the purse strings as far as getting additional kit was concerned. For example, I had wanted to know for some time whether I could improve image quality by using a full frame camera, but I was sufficiently doubtful about it that I felt unable to justify spending that amount of money on something that I thought probably wouldn't work. However, thinking that I probably only had a few months before I would be unable to do any more photography changed my thinking; it was a case of "now or never". So I bought an A7ii and converters that would let me use my Canon EF lenses on it and legacy lenses; I tried Minolta, Canon FD and Helios lenses.

None of it proved successful for my purposes. But in the context, that was fine. I had my answer.

More recently I bought something else, something that those who know where this thread began will be surprised by; I bought a Canon MPE-65, along with a Yongnuo YN24EX twin flash.

Why on earth would I do that, when as chronicled at the very start of this thread five and half years ago I had discovered that it wouldn't give me any better image quality than the close-up lenses I was, and still am, using? I sent it back after a few days, along with the Canon MT24EX twin flash. So what is different now?

What is different is that I have five and half more years experience with close-up/macro, and I only had the MPE-65 for a few days and that, coupled with my relative inexperience (which included my first use of a dSLR, a Canon 70D that I bought along with the MPE-65 and MT24EX) means that I can't have given the MPE-65 a fair trial. Perhaps now, being more experienced, I would do better with it, especially as I could use it on a camera (the A7ii) which had very good focus peaking, which should help considerably with the MPE-65 being manual focus only.

What I was particulary interested in was small subjects. The optics of my close-up lenses have for a long time struck me as decreasingly satisfying as magnifications go beyond what I can achieve with a Raynox 250. The MPE-65 is designed to operate at those magnifications, and I have seen great results from it with small subjects like springtails. In the circumstances it seemed like a good idea to give it another go.

I bought a second hand MPE-65, and a new YN24EX (much less expensive than the MT24EX and from my reading apparently just as good, or better). My first impression when I got the MPE-65 out of the box and put it on the A7ii was that it didn't feel quite as heavy as I was expecting, and the magnification/focus ring felt quite easy to turn, unlike on the one five years ago, which I recall as being stiff and difficult to turn.

That is the end of the good news. I had forgotten just how far you have to turn that ring to get from 1:1 to 5:1. Finding subjects at high magnification can be (for me at least) very difficult, and the way I do it with my close-up lenses is to zoom to wide angle, find the subject, and then zoom in on it, which I can do very quickly and easily, with a light touch on a lever, without inducing any rotational or lateral movement in the camera. This approach (for me at least) was, as it had been first time round, not practical with the MPE-65. I had to turn the ring too many times, inducing movements which meant I would lose the subject, and it was slow to do. It reminded me of something that @TimmyG, who is really talented with the MPE-65, wrote in the second post in this thread: "Nick, your findings re: the MP-E made me smile. You won't believe the amount of frustration I have had trying to find subjects through the view finder (especially at full magnification), and by the time I get anywhere close, they have moved on. I've never really known any different though, so I just take this to be part of the fun!"

I saw something from Brian Valentine years ago, saying that what he suggests is to pick the magnification you want to use and then move the camera in on the subject. So that is what I tried.

The first problem I had was with the YN24EX. I had it fitted to the front of the lens as I think is the common approach used by people with a lot of experience with the MPE-65. The trouble was that at higher magnifications, which is where I was envisaging the MPE-65 being most use to me, the working distance is very short, down to around 40mm at 5:1. I found the flash heads getting in the way. I switched to my Venus Optics KX800, which meant losing ETTL, but at least I could keep the flash heads out of the way. The trouble is that when you change magnification the MPE-65 changes length so radically that I would need to adjust the arms of the YN24EX when I did more than a small change in magnification; I don't really fancy doing a lot of adjustments of those bendy arms; they are a bit fragile. (I use the KX800 in a fixed position with my close-up lens setups, independent of magnification).

I was also reminded that with the MPE-65 if the subject is on a somewhat flat surface you can only get a high magnification shot from a pretty acute angle towards the vertical because of the diameter of the lens combined with the very short working distance. (The additional size of the YN24EX mount made this worse even though it is flattened off at the bottom.) In comparison, it is possible to use a shallower angle with the high power Raynoxes (MSN-202, MSN-505) because they have a much smaller diameter.

With the KX800 mounted, I tried out the MPE-65 in the garden. I tried working hand-held; I like working hand-held. Looking at the results it was clear that this was not going to work; almost nothing was in focus. I would have to use a steadying device of some sort. I can't remember if I tried that or not, but around that point my enthusiasm waned. The MPE-65 is sitting on the shelf along with other mainly unused lenses.

I will not be sending the MPE-65 back (not sure I can anyway, it works properly as far as I can tell, and this was not Amazon with its no questions asked returns policy). With it being a permanent acquisition I can give it a good amount of time and effort in due course to familiarise myself with using it, and develop the required muscle memory, but I'll wait until I'm in the right frame of mind. So that is an ongoing project. Incidentally, used with the A7ii it will get me down to around 7mm scene width. I can go smaller using my EF teleconverters and extension tubes, and I can also go smaller by mounting it on one of my micro four thirds cameras (and on the 70D for that matter). So there is plenty of playing yet to be done. And who knows, given time and practice, perhaps I will come to like, respect, and make good use of the MPE-65.

This experience has reinforced in my mind the importance of usability in the field. As documented in this thread I have had an ongoing on/off relationship as between micro four thirds and 1/2.3" bridge cameras for invertebrates of a size that the Raynox 150 and 250 cover comfortably with the zoom lenses that I use them on, with both setups giving me image quality that I feel is good enough for my purposes. I can't remember if I mentioned this before, but I created something of a "retrospective" here at blogspot. This covered my photography from 2007 to Spring 2019, mainly close-up/macro (like the A7ii etc purchases, it was prompted by the mesothelioma prognosis). When I had completed it, looking back and forth through the images, I really wasn't convinced that micro four thirds was giving me better image quality. Even so, as recently as a couple of months ago I was still undecided, as I wrote in a post here in mid September: "This leaves me still undecided between the FZ330 and G9 for invertebrates."

Perhaps it is just because I have got tired of all the dithering, and perhaps I will change my mind yet again, but in the last few weeks I have confirmed that I really do like the usability of the FZ330 more than the G9 for invertebrates, and even if there is at least sometimes an advantage with the G9 in terms of image quality (and I'm not sure there is) I really can't be bothered with switching back and forth between the FZ330 and the G9. What settled it for me just recently (for now at least!) was when a few wasps and flies turned up on the Fatsia bush and I went out with the FZ330 and Raynox 150. It was actually quite a difficult opportunity because they were moving around so fast (and I was a bit out of practice), and during the session I was doubtful as to whether it was working. However, when I came to look at and work on the captures it convinced me that, yes, it had worked, and the image quality looked good enough for my purposes. (I posted some of them in this thread).

For flowers and other botanical subjects I remain clear in my mind that the G9 with Olympus 60mm macro is the right tool for me. Here too, a session in the past few days has reinforced my thinking about this (I posted some images from that session here).

On the subject of image quality I remain convinced that post processing is a key factor, for me at least. And it is an area in which I feel I am still developing. I am exploring different processing products, and have very recently integrated one new product into my workflow for invertebrates - Topaz DeNoise AI, with which I am mostly using its legacy AIClear mode. I'm also making more use of Photoshop, in this case mainly for flowers etc, and learning to use new (to me) Photoshp features and through practice am becoming more adroit with some Photoshop functions that I have known about for some time but have never used much before. The current workflows are:
  • For single raw images: DXO PhotoLab > DNG > Silkypix > TIF > Lightroom, with optional TIF round trips from Lightroom to DeNoise AI and/or Photoshop.
  • For video-based stacks: Helicon Focus > TIF > Lightroom, with optional TIF round trips from Lightroom to Photoshop.
 
Last edited:
The journey continues. That is a bit of a surprise actually as I expected my journey to be over by now because 18 months ago I was diagnosed with pleural mesothelioma. This is a form of cancer associated with exposure to asbestos with a life expectancy of 12 to 18 months from diagnosis. However, much to the surprise of the medical folk, despite my deciding not to have any treatment (because it doesn't do much good) the mesothelioma seems to have slowly regressed and at the most recent review there was no evidence of it whatsoever. This is, apparently, extraordinarily unusual, and has resulted in an apparent difference of opinion between leading two experts in the field as to whether I ever had mesothelioma in the first place (Roughly "It doesn't regress spontaneously, so he can't have had it" versus "The biopsy shows he does, or at least did, have it").
Who cares what the reason is, as long as you are still alive and health - that is wonderful news!!!!!!
 
The journey continues. That is a bit of a surprise actually as I expected my journey to be over by now because 18 months ago I was diagnosed with pleural mesothelioma. This is a form of cancer associated with exposure to asbestos with a life expectancy of 12 to 18 months from diagnosis. However, much to the surprise of the medical folk, despite my deciding not to have any treatment (because it doesn't do much good) the mesothelioma seems to have slowly regressed and at the most recent review there was no evidence of it whatsoever.
That's brilliant news Nick long may it continue (y)
 
On the subject of image quality I remain convinced that post processing is a key factor, for me at least. And it is an area in which I feel I am still developing.

Shortly after I wrote those words I had another little example of this. I am dipping into my (rather large) backlog every now and then to try to clear a bit more out of it. Yesterday evening I found a curious set of raw files from July 2017 of a cricket captured with a Panasonic G80 and 60mm macro using available light. There were 28 of them. They had been shot at 1/20 to 1/40 sec and 22 of them were very blurred; it looks like I had been shooting hand-held. I had separated out the other six and had put them through the first two stages of the workflow I was using at that time: a DXO Optics Pro preset which produced DNG files followed by a Silkypix preset which produced TIF files . It looks as though I didn't like what I saw when I looked at the TIF files in Lightroom and didn't bother to finish processing them. But I hadn't marked them up as finished with and ready to be deleted in the next cleanup, so they had just sat there in limbo for a couple of years.

As shown in this album at Flickr, I had been shooting invertebrates that day, using flash with a Raynox 150 on a 45-175 on a Panasonic G5. The album contained this image of the (presumably) same cricket on (definitely) the same leaf (the leaf has a very distinctive blemish).


1225 44 2017_07_28 P1210515_DxO 0100RAW01cP SP7 LR6 1300h
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

That image was captured at minimum focal length (45mm) and there was a gap of five minutes before the next image of the (presumably) same cricket on a different leaf. What seems to have happened is that I couldn't get a wide enough angle for the type of "subject in its environment" type shot that I like to do, and rather than putting a less powerful (Canon 500D) achromat on the 45-175 I decided to try using the G80 with 60mm macro, which at that time was my go to camera for flowers and I probably had with me in the bag I usually keep nearby.

I would have been in a hurry (these animals move around and disappear) and I didn't move the flash from the G5 to the G80. Even though I used f/16 rather than my usual f/22 I needed to use ISO 1600 to get the not really fast enough shutter speeds that I had used, and I don't like to take the G80 beyond ISO 1600. With such slow shutter speeds and presumably working hand-held, the blurry images are not really very surprising. I presumably saw what was going on and went back to using the G5 and flash.

I decided to have another go at four of the six files. I threw away the DNG and TIF files and started again, using my current presets in PhotoLab and Silkypix. I then finished editing them in Lightoom and exported 1300 pixel high JPEGs. They looked ok-ish, but I noticed that one of them looked particularly soft. Here we can see, at 1300 pixels high, what is essentially an out of the camera JPEG on the left (the JPEG embedded in the raw file), and on the right the JPEG out of Lightroom.

You will probably need to click through to Flickr to see the full size version to get anything useful from this screen shot.


1570 5 Compare OOC JPEG to PLab+SPix+LR at 1300pix
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

Even after my best efforts it was still too soft for me to want to use it. This made me wonder about the other three, which suddenly looked softer than before; were they too soft to use I wondered.

I decided to have a play with a couple of pieces of Topaz software that I have been experimenting with recently; Sharpen AI and DeNoise AI. There is a lot of overlap between them. Sharpen AI sharpens and also does some noise reduction. DeNoise AI does noise reduction and also does some sharpening.

Sharpen AI has three modes: Sharpen; Stabilise, which tries to correct the effects of movement; and Focus, which attempts to improve slightly out of focus images.

DeNoise AI has two modes: DeNoise; and AI clear, which I believe is a legacy product which DeNoise is aimed at improving on.

I have recently found the Sharpen mode of Sharpen AI and the AI Clear mode of DeNoise AI useful for my invertebrate images, with AI Clear being the one I have favoured most recently. However, neither of these two modes helped with the above blurry cricket image. I then tried the Stabilise mode of Sharpen AI on the JPEG out of Lightroom. Using the default settings it gave the result shown below on the right, compared to the version straight out of Lightroom on the left.

You will probably need to click through to Flickr to see the full size version to get anything useful from this screen shot.


1570 6 Compare PLab+SPix+LR to same+AIS at 1300pix
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

I was pleasantly surprised. It looked usable to me.

I then tried the Stabilise mode with the same settings on one of the other three cricket images. It looked oversharpened. However when I turned it down I thought it looked ok, and better than before. I tried the same reduced setting on the other two images and it looked ok for one but overdone with the other, which then looked ok when I turned it down some more.

Those four versions are the ones I have posted in this thread. They were all shot at 1/30 sec, almost certainly hand-held, using ISO 1600 and f/16.

It seems to me that this is another case where processing can make a significant difference, and where it matters which particular product is used, and how it is used. (There may of course be more than one product, from the same or different suppliers, which can achieve a particular effect.)

I may not be making much progress on the hardware front, but I do feel I'm inching forwards on the software and processing side of things.
 
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+1! Brilliant news Nick. Slight concern it may impact on budget considerations though? :)

Thanks Mike.

Budget now more constrained because of things not looking so dire? Don't know. It has been a bit of a soul-searching, habit-changing, value-altering sort of experience. I don't see the purse strings being tightened at the moment. I am much more appreciative now of something I inherited from my father, a little coaster on which I place my car keys by the front door so I see it every day. It says "Enjoy life. This is not a rehearsal". It's been there for over a decade now, but my appreciation of what it says is somehow less intellectual and more visceral than it was previously.

That said, having settled down (for now at least) to the FZ330 for invertebrates, the G9 for botanicals, the 70D for common birds in flight and the A7ii for sunsets/skyscapes, each with the lenses I want to use with them, and having tried things like the MPE-65 and YN24EX that I should have know better than to have tried, I'm having difficulty at the moment thinking of any big budget items that would tempt me. It strikes me that I will get more from actually capturing images and processing them than from spending more money on kit. Software expenditure is ongoing, and I'm keeping several products up to date, but that is not in the same league as cameras and lenses.
 
Thanks Mike.

Budget now more constrained because of things not looking so dire?

Yes - sorry for the black humour! Having first read you were well (I hasten to add) I then saw your comment about imminent death loosening the purse strings :)

Don't know. It has been a bit of a soul-searching, habit-changing, value-altering sort of experience. I don't see the purse strings being tightened at the moment. I am much more appreciative now of something I inherited from my father, a little coaster on which I place my car keys by the front door so I see it every day. It says "Enjoy life. This is not a rehearsal". It's been there for over a decade now, but my appreciation of what it says is somehow less intellectual and more visceral than it was previously.

That said, having settled down (for now at least) to the FZ330 for invertebrates, the G9 for botanicals, the 70D for common birds in flight and the A7ii for sunsets/skyscapes, each with the lenses I want to use with them, and having tried things like the MPE-65 and YN24EX that I should have know better than to have tried, I'm having difficulty at the moment thinking of any big budget items that would tempt me. It strikes me that I will get more from actually capturing images and processing them than from spending more money on kit. Software expenditure is ongoing, and I'm keeping several products up to date, but that is not in the same league as cameras and lenses.

Funny you should mention the MPE-65 - I had one some years back and I hated the damn thing as it was a swine to use but looking back I seem to have got some of my best macro shots with it! My current rig of A7Rii and 90mm is great in many ways but somehow just not quite hitting the mark for me - I never seem to have much depth of field and the hit rate is low (although the keepers are good). More pondering to be done there which is half the fun of course :)
 
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