Building Surveys / Home Buyers reports - Thoughts?

ecoleman

ecoleman

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We've just had our offer accepted on a house and everything is now moving forwards.

My questions is regarding surveys and if people think they are worth the money paid.

Reading various forums online it would appear that a very large number of people are of the opinion that these surveys, be it a Home buyers survey or a buildings survey, are not really worth the paper they are written on, simply pointing out the obvious and covering their arse for areas that they won't / can't inspect.

Certainly the home buyers report is only a visual inspection and they will not even move furniture of lift rugs and yet cost upwards of £400 for an hours work.
The buildings survey £600+ is a bit more in depth but again they can not do invasive inspections.

The property is old (circa 1926) but has been lovingly restored by the current owner who has worked in the building trade as a carpenter and who is now an engineer. The condition of the property is very good and visually there are no signs of subsidence, cracking either inside or out. Wiring has also been replaced.

What are your thoughts on Surveys?
If you've had one done, did you find it useful or did it just tell you how to suck eggs?
 
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Waste of time in my opinion. The basic one is pretty much just to satisfy the mortgage lender that the property is a) worth what they're lending you and b) not going to fall down in the immediate future.

As you've already said, they're also usually full of get out clauses so the surveyor can't be sued if there IS a problem. The last one I had done was chockfull of the things. Gas: maybe ok but I'm not a qualified gas engineer. Electrics: more of the same. Joists: maybe ok but I couldn't check as I couldn't lift the carpets to see. Blah blah.
 
boogie man said:
Waste of time in my opinion. The basic one is pretty much just to satisfy the mortgage lender that the property is a) worth what they're lending you and b) not going to fall down in the immediate future.
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They really aren't interested in b. In fact for a "valuation for mortgage purposes" the valuer doesn't always visit the house or even area in question............

I've never had a survey (full structural) done. I've had a few Homebuyer's Reports done and I can't remember them ever telling me anything (a) I didn't know or (b) that would affect by decision to buy or even the price to negotiate.

1927 house that's been looked after - I'd have a good look for the obvious stuff and if none of those were present save the money. £600 would go towards repairs :)

https://www.tepilo.com/advice/2009/11/tips-when-viewing-georgian-properties
 
Can't get around the valuation survey. The bank requires that and it won't provide any information regarding the structure of the property.

Obviously I don't want to buy a lemon, but really don't want to spend £600 on a survey that tells the me the kitchen is dated and needs updating.
 
Yes there are usually 3 kinds. I thought £400 was the middle and £600 the top (where they may even get their damp meter out). Valuation is basically any number they think up because as you say you have no choice.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Yes there are usually 3 kinds. I thought £400 was the middle and £600 the top (where they may even get their damp meter out). Valuation is basically any number they think up because as you say you have no choice.
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I'm not to concerned about valuation. I'm quite happy that the house is worth what I'ver offered based on other properties we have seen. I've just been quoted £600 for a full building survey but at the same time have downloaded and read various survey reports that have been published online and some of the reading is really putting me off.

I have one sample survey here that took 4 pages to tell me that it was a house on a freehold and had a kitchen, living room, dining room, 3 bedrooms etc and that there was off street parking.

Some examples of paragraphs found in the report;

"Our inspection of the front roof slope was extremely restricted and ideally an additional access hatch to the front part of the property would be beneficial. We cannot comment on the possibility of unseen defects."

"As the roof slopes are under-felted, battens and tile fixings were hidden from view. the underlay itself appears generally serviceable, although the area most likely to perish first is immediately adjacent to the eaves and this could not be inspected. the need for future repairs cannot be entirely ruled out."

"There is no evidence of damp proof course to the main walls, although this could be concealed by internal and external wall surfaces"

"No evidence of significant condensation was noted at the time of inspection"

"A representative sample of exposed timber was examined and whilst all reasonable care was taken, the possibility of concealed defects cannot be entirely ruled out"

"Mains gas appear to be connected. The meter is located in the basement" (then basically that they are not qualified to test and to get a gas company to check)

"Mains electricity is installed, with the meter and consumer unit located in the basement" (then basically they are not qualified an to get an electrician)

"Your legal advisors should ensure that mains water supply is available" (because I can't turn on a tap)

"The drain cover was rusty so you should get a company to check this"

"There is no garage"

How do you possibly make an important purchasing decision based on a report like this.

It just seems to me that these surveys don't tell you anything that you can't already deduce from plain common sense and are pushed onto people by scaring the crap out of them by telling them the house may fall down if they don't get one.
 
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We've just bought a new house and have decided not to do a survey other than the required mortgage valuation one.
The reasons are as you say.
When we bought this house, our first house, we paid for a homebuyer report. It brought up a few issues with damp, but on the whole basically said "couldn't check" on everything due to the house being furnished and they wouldn't/couldn't move any of it to check anything.

Due to being naive we also paid for a specialist damp survey as recommend by the homebuyer.
Again this was a waste of time. They said there were no air bricks in the property where quite clearly there is, they said a lot of other stuff which was clearly rubbish, as we've been here 10 years with zero issues.

Save the money and put it in a pot to cover any issues as they happen and get some good buildings insurance instead.
 
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Only times I've had a `survey` when buying a property, are the basic ones insisted upon by the mortgage lender.
The last couple of houses we've had we've luckily been able to put down 30%+ of the price, negating the need & cost of having one done.

Timber framed, thatched, unusual construction in some way etc.......... then yes I probably would, but if you use common sense & have a fair idea of what to look out for - damp smells, dry rot, obvious cracks inside & out (+ reasons for any new plastering etc) Ask to take a peep in the loft & try to do it when it's raining.

If you are happy & don't suspect any issues, save your brass. (y)
 
ecoleman said:
I'm not to concerned about valuation. I'm quite happy that the house is worth what I'ver offered based on other properties we have seen.
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The valuation is purely for the mortgage lender doesn't matter what you think it's worth.
 
Think I'm just going to get a spark to check the electrics and somebody to check the heating system. Maybe get an independent drain survey as well.

The property is well maintained and on the surface is in excellent condition. Nothing jumps out to cause concern and I'm pretty sure if there is a problem it wouldn't be anything a survey would uncover.
 
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ecoleman said:
Think I'm just going to get a spark to check the electrics and somebody to check the heating system. Maybe get an independent drain survey as well.

The property is well maintained and on the surface is in excellent condition. Nothing jumps out to cause concern and I'm pretty sure if there is a problem it wouldn't be anything a survey would uncover.
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And this is exactly why you should get a professional to do a full survey
 
ecoleman said:
Think I'm just going to get a spark to check the electrics and somebody to check the heating system. Maybe get an independent drain survey as well.
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A good idea re the electrics imo (certainly for safety reasons) (y)

Another idea for when you move in might be to sign up for a yearly gas service plan?

We've had the British Gas one for a few years & later *added the electrics & drains cover when in our previous old terraced property.

*outside I occasionally started to get that smell of `drains/sewage` so suspected a problem. A little while later the smell got much worse, so added the drains cover.
I waited a few weeks before calling them out & they dug up & replaced a failed joint on the foul drain. 2 days work + materials. Well worth the extra price.

Use it as peace of mind & If everything is fine after the 1st year, you can always cancel/not renew.
 
OldCarlos said:
A good idea re the electrics imo (certainly for safety reasons) (y)

Another idea for when you move in might be to sign up for a yearly gas service plan?

We've had the British Gas one for a few years & later *added the electrics & drains cover when in our previous old terraced property.

*outside I occasionally started to get that smell of `drains/sewage` so suspected a problem. A little while later the smell got much worse, so added the drains cover.
I waited a few weeks before calling them out & they dug up & replaced a failed joint on the foul drain. 2 days work + materials. Well worth the extra price.

Use it as peace of mind & If everything is fine after the 1st year, you can always cancel/not renew.
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No Gas in this house. Heating is oil (as is much of Wales. I've never had gas whilst living here). Annual service of an oil boiler is usually around £45-£60 depending on parts like injectors and filters.

I'll probably get the drains inspected but good idea for insurance if building insurance won't cover something like that.
 
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Or you can look at as the most expensive thing you will ever buy, so why not spend less than the cost of a mid-range lens on having it checked out? I comissioned my own survey on my home, in addition to the valuation that the lender made me buy. When I rang the surveyor I asked for a full structural and they told me that given the age and construction they wouldn't recommend that as there was no point in me spending that much, so recommended the next one down. I got a 20 page illustrated report which highlighted some things that I hadn't picked up when viewing, including some dreadful bodges by the previous owners (I found some more when removing the horrible home made built in furniture, though those didn't affect the fabric of the building).

I found the surveyor I used by asking the one that came to do my house for my buyers - he actually said "I wouldn't recommend my company as we're way too expensive for individuals", and gave me the names of a couple of people he considered to be good, one of which I went with.

Ultimately, I was spending around £300,000. I was happy to spend 0.2% of that to have someone with professional qualifications take a look at it before I signed on the line.
 
onomatopoeia said:
Or you can look at as the most expensive thing you will ever buy, so why not spend less than the cost of a mid-range lens on having it checked out? I comissioned my own survey on my home, in addition to the valuation that the lender made me buy. When I rang the surveyor I asked for a full structural and they told me that given the age and construction they wouldn't recommend that as there was no point in me spending that much, so recommended the next one down. I got a 20 page illustrated report which highlighted some things that I hadn't picked up when viewing, including some dreadful bodges by the previous owners (I found some more when removing the horrible home made built in furniture, though those didn't affect the fabric of the building).

I found the surveyor I used by asking the one that came to do my house for my buyers - he actually said "I wouldn't recommend my company as we're way too expensive for individuals", and gave me the names of a couple of people he considered to be good, one of which I went with.

Ultimately, I was spending around £300,000. I was happy to spend 0.2% of that to have someone with professional qualifications take a look at it before I signed on the line.
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It's not that I'm trying to be cheap and save a few quid, it's that if I'm going to spend that money I need a report that tells me more than what is glaringly obvious and not a lot of maybe, maybe nots because we couldn't gain access to something to actually inspect it.

I've downloaded 3 actual full building surveys from actual buyers buying actual houses. I've read all three reports and once you remove all the b******t that tells you how many bedrooms you have, where the fuse box is, what the kitchen floor is made of you are not left with an awful lot of information. From what was left was just a lot of "we couldn't gain access to xyz, we recommend you get somebody in to check it out", or the floor joists could be rotting but we can't tell for sure as we couldn't gain access to them.

I read all three reports as if the house was potentially mine and I honestly would not have been able to make an informed decision based on the reports produced.

Instead of paying somebody in a suit to tell me to get an electrician etc, I may as well go directly to the electrician, plumber, drain inspector etc.

My sister recently bought a house and had a survey. All good it said. The pulled the wallpaper off a bedroom wall and it pretty much fell down.

A friend just bought a house, nothing found in the survey but when replacing the bathroom suite they found the bathroom floor completely rotten and had to replace it all.

I do appreciate your advise, that is after all what I asked for, it's just that I'm only coming across a very small amount of people in favour of a survey with the rest saying they are a waste of time and a con.
 
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Have you moved yet, Elliott? Did you bother with a survey?
 
OldCarlos said:
Have you moved yet, Elliott? Did you bother with a survey?
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I wish, sellers solicitors seem to be on a go slow. We're 7 weeks in since our offer was accepted so hopefully things will start to come together soon.

No, we're not having the survey done. The house has been very nicely renovated and we've had a very good look around. We just don't feel a survey will be able to tell us anymore than what we can see. Probably if the house was a bit run down or we weren't happy with what we saw we would have gone a different route.

From what I understand the valuation survey did include an actual visit including internal inspection and no concerns were raised there.
 
We'll hopefully be putting an offer in this week & if accepted I'd expect to be moving by Oct. :rolleyes:

Good luck with it all. (y)
 
I have huge empathy with a lot of the comments made in this thread.

However, like photographers, not all surveyors are the same.

Regrettably some are there to get onto the next job as soon as possible, but a really comprehensive assessment will provide a positive and well written report, pointing out things that you cannot see or probably know, without resorting to damagingly opening up the property, although the most comprehensive types of survey, will do that if the owner has provided written permission and terms of reinstatement are agreed in advance.

A good chartered surveyor or chartered building engineer will however have the depth of knowledge and test equipment to be able to assess things properly and comprehensively without damage. Such test equipment will probably exceed the cameras and lens costs most people here use and can be excessively expensive to invest in. Hence some surveyors try and get away without this and researching a really good surveyor can be difficult.

A full building survey should take at least four hours plus on site and produce a comprehensive report of construction, defects, causes and remediation, probably in total maybe creating a report of forty pages and believe me, a lot of the things you couldn't possibly know without a very comprehensive and in depth knowledge of construction and the results of defects and how to identify them.

Reports you can download from the internet are usually not good examples of reports as a proper report cannot be reproduced to the public due to Data Protection for the buyer and seller and confidentiality is key to the whole process in which the surveyor didn't invent rules about.

A proper building survey will actually be more than your quoted £600 (depending on the part of the country and values you are are dealing with) and I would expect it to be approaching or around four figures. Usually the defects that you are not aware of or couldn't identify will allow you to renegotiate the sale price by more than the cost of the survey. An investment and job list for future repairs that is more than worthwhile.

In effect you are expecting a cheap phone cam to take pictures the quality of a PhaseOne or Hasselblad to produce a poster size print and suggesting that all you need to do is press the button.

Its true, but its really the six inches behind the viewfinder that is really important. Don't forget that.
 
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ecoleman said:
I wish, sellers solicitors seem to be on a go slow. We're 7 weeks in since our offer was accepted so hopefully things will start to come together soon.
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I feel your pain. It's just taken 4 months to sell our house to cash buyers with no chain either side.

The survey was the easy bit. Fun fact: if everybody involved in a transaction buys conveyancing at the lowest possible cost, it can take a while ;)
 
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JonathanRyan said:
I feel your pain. It's just taken 4 months to sell our house to cash buyers with no chain either side.

The survey was the easy bit. Fun fact: if everybody involved in a transaction buys conveyancing at the lowest possible cost, it can take a while ;)
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I'll be doing some chasing up this morning with the vendors agents. Our solicitors have done everything that needs to be done and can't move forwards until we get more info from them. It seems nothing has happened for the past 3 weeks.

Whilst we are chain free, the sellers aren't. I suspect they may be stalling to give themselves more time.
 
JonathanRyan said:
I feel your pain. It's just taken 4 months to sell our house to cash buyers with no chain either side.

The survey was the easy bit. Fun fact: if everybody involved in a transaction buys conveyancing at the lowest possible cost, it can take a while ;)
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An average transaction, mortgage involved or not, normally takes 3-4 months to proceed from offer to completion and many take longer.

Cut priced conveyancers: Did you realise that such 'conveyancing factories' cut their costs so sharply that the true internal cost of conveyancing is absolutely peanuts and so every corner is cut and the buyers and sellers involved actually end up doing most of the donkey work themselves.

They are also at the mercy of incompetent council and government departments who don't understand the word 'speed' and hide behind such words as 'policy' and 'procedure'. Look how long they allow themselves to answer emails on their letterheads or return emails......crazily long times for that.

A colleague in Manchester, years ago tried one of these outfits out and found to his cost that he ended up doing all the work and luckily being a developer was able to do the tranaction ok as he knew what he was doing, but he swore that he would return to his old conveyaning solicitors even though they charged normal central Manchester rates as a proper solicitor does, and never use 'conveyancing factories' ever again and he was obviously involved in multiple tansactions per year.

Lesson learnt the hard way.

Knowing how little the internal transaction cost is set at within these 'factory' operations I would never touch them with a bargepole.

Perhaps someone should have bothered to explain the process to you in more detail.
 
We paid £1200 for a full structural survey.

The house was built in 1860 and my interpretation of the report was, its old and may fall down but might not. The key to the answer lay in the fact the bits they needed to see were not accessible.
However it was good to know that it didn't have dry or wet rot (as far as they could ascertain).
Overall I wouldn't bother again. I think getting electrics and drains checked out is a good call.
 
ecoleman said:
Our solicitors have done everything that needs to be done and can't move forwards until we get more info from them.
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Whilst that's almost certainly true, it's exactly what our purchasers' solicitors were saying to them for about 6 weeks. And they were lying ;) It's always worth kicking everybody once a week - eventually it's less work for them to do the work than avoid it.

shreds said:
An average transaction, mortgage involved or not, normally takes 3-4 months to proceed from offer to completion and many take longer.
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My experience is a little faster than that if people are motivated. 8 - 12 weeks seems more normal round here. But usually closer to 12 than 8.

I did actually do some sums to see what the cheapest conveyancers were left with once you deducted fixed costs form the money they charged. Then I divided that by minimum wage and found that they could only really spend about 10 hours on a purchase and that includes answering the phone every time they got chased.

Sadly I had no control over the firm my purchasers chose - I honestly hope it was the firm's first time trying to buy a house as they really didn't seem very good at it.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Whilst that's almost certainly true, it's exactly what our purchasers' solicitors were saying to them for about 6 weeks. And they were lying ;) It's always worth kicking everybody once a week - eventually it's less work for them to do the work than avoid it.



My experience is a little faster than that if people are motivated. 8 - 12 weeks seems more normal round here. But usually closer to 12 than 8.

I did actually do some sums to see what the cheapest conveyancers were left with once you deducted fixed costs form the money they charged. Then I divided that by minimum wage and found that they could only really spend about 10 hours on a purchase and that includes answering the phone every time they got chased.

Sadly I had no control over the firm my purchasers chose - I honestly hope it was the firm's first time trying to buy a house as they really didn't seem very good at it.
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Been on the phone to my solicitor and the sellers agent today. turns out the sellers solicitor has been on holiday for two week (cheeky bugger).
Anyway, required information has apparently been send to my solicitor last week so should be with them soon.

Also looks like the seller will be moving into rented accommodation and have asked when we would like to complete, so it looks like things are moving forwards again.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Whilst that's almost certainly true, it's exactly what our purchasers' solicitors were saying to them for about 6 weeks. And they were lying ;) It's always worth kicking everybody once a week - eventually it's less work for them to do the work than avoid it.

[Quote}My experience is a little faster than that if people are motivated.
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But are they?

8 - 12 weeks seems more normal round here. But usually closer to 12 than 8.
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So three months....

It can in fact be done same day if everyone wants it too, but you have a greater chance of winning the lottery twice in succession, although I have seen it done that quick once or twice.

I did actually do some sums to see what the cheapest conveyancers were left with once you deducted fixed costs form the money they charged. Then I divided that by minimum wage and found that they could only really spend about 10 hours on a purchase and that includes answering the phone every time they got chased..
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With respect, that shows how little you know about the process and how it occurs in practice.
 
shreds said:
But are they?

So three months....

It can in fact be done same day if everyone wants it too, but you have a greater chance of winning the lottery twice in succession, although I have seen it done that quick once or twice.



With respect, that shows how little you know about the process and how it occurs in practice.
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Srsly, what's your point? Or are you just looking for an argument?
 
We are still in that stalled state. Our buyers are ready to go, we are just waiting on the house we are buying. Annoying thing is, the house we are buying is chain free, but the person selling never registered the property when he bought it as a job lot with land, so he is having to register it first. Why he didn't do this before listing it for sale I do not know.
He's also buggered off on holiday for ten days further stalling things.

It feels like nothing is happening, but in a few weeks things will kick into gear and it will be a mad rush getting everything ready. Most annoying thing is the house insurance on this place runs out on the 27th and I was hoping to not have to renew it.
 
We are still waiting :-(
Even though the searches were done 5 weeks ago and it was common knowledge, only now has our solicitor decided she isn't happy with the access arrangements (it's down a forestry commission track which services two other houses and a small caravan park. Most "countryside" houses in the Forest of Dean have similar arrangements so it's nothing unusual.). This could have all been settled weeks ago, but heyho.

Our buyers must be really annoyed, they've been ready to move since June.
 
TCR4x4 said:
We are still waiting :-(
Even though the searches were done 5 weeks ago and it was common knowledge, only now has our solicitor decided she isn't happy with the access arrangements (it's down a forestry commission track which services two other houses and a small caravan park. Most "countryside" houses in the Forest of Dean have similar arrangements so it's nothing unusual.). This could have all been settled weeks ago, but heyho.

Our buyers must be really annoyed, they've been ready to move since June.
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Well I thought we were exchanging. I arranged a CHAPS last night to my solicitors, we're STILL waiting for them to process it. The money hasn't even left my account yet :punch::punch::punch::mad::mad::mad:.
Costing me £20 for the privilege.

We also had a last minute issue our solicitor wasn't happy with. Something to do with a note on the deeds about rights and easements, but the documents are missing so nobody actually knows what they are. She wanted the sellers to take an indemnity policy to cover that but as these notes go back to 1929 and they have lived at the property for 22 years without any issues they refused. Just another reason to extort money out of us while they have us over a barrel.

I had to tell them that I'd take out the policy (only £90 one off) to avoid any further delays. It's costing me £175 for every week I say where I am so I see it that I'm actually saving £85 by paying for the policy.
 
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Our offer was accepted 6+ weeks ago & solicitors instructed, search fees etc paid about 3 weeks ago, so I reckon it'll be the end of October before we move (with lots of luck)

The whole property buying/selling system needs a radical change IMHO.


Good luck Elliott, at least you seem to be on the final leg at last. (y)
 
OldCarlos said:
Our offer was accepted 6+ weeks ago & solicitors instructed, search fees etc paid about 3 weeks ago, so I reckon it'll be the end of October before we move (with lots of luck)

The whole property buying/selling system needs a radical change IMHO.


Good luck Elliott, at least you seem to be on the final leg at last. (y)
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If I've learn anything over the last 13 weeks, it's never buy a house in the summer.
Of these 13 weeks sine having our offer accepted our solicitor went on holiday for one of them and the sellers solicitor went on holiday for three of them. 4 weeks of nothing happening!
 
ecoleman said:
If I've learn anything over the last 13 weeks, it's never buy a house in the summer.
Of these 13 weeks sine having our offer accepted our solicitor went on holiday for one of them and the sellers solicitor went on holiday for three of them. 4 weeks of nothing happening!
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Conveyancers go skiing too.
 
ecoleman said:
If I've learn anything over the last 13 weeks, it's never buy a house in the summer.
Of these 13 weeks sine having our offer accepted our solicitor went on holiday for one of them and the sellers solicitor went on holiday for three of them. 4 weeks of nothing happening!
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lol are you sure we aren't buying each others houses. Seem to having the exact same issues.

The seller of the house we are buying went on holiday for 10 days whilst we were waiting for him to have plans to be drawn up for the land registry, and then our solicitor went away for 10 days not long after.
 
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