Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[DK602]

just because it is research and all companies do it, that doesn't mean to say they need to make an announcement about it. The only reason to do so, would be that it is showing signs of heading in a certain direction. A direction that could lead to higher premiums for certain vehicles.
As you are accusing me of being anti EV for posting the link, the link must also be anti EV. Yet the site is pro EV, they are doing the same as me, forwarding people that certain EV could see higher insurance premiums if insurance companies see them as a higher risk.

I answered your question the first time you asked it when you joined the thread, I am not anti EV and not slating them, I have just been correcting some statements.

Aye - rocket science; who would have believed a high performance EV might attract a higher insurance premium than an everyday EV?
Doesn't happen with ICE vehicles does it!!

Pointless initial post by you then ?

 

[nilagin]

Another local authority ditching ICE car for EV: https://electrek.co/2019/08/30/tesla-model-3-police-cost-performance-dodge-charger/

I think they may want to take a look at their maths. The Tesla they bought is "a little more expensive" at $41k and expect to hire more police officers with the $6k they will save annually on fuel. I wonder how many extra officers they can hire with $6k. The $41k is for a car that needs to be modified for police use. The Dodge Charger comes in at a little over $21.2k, an extra $918 gets you a V8 engine and for $1758 you get a V8 and AWD, all before modification.

That isn't even close to $41k.

 

[nilagin]

Aye - rocket science; who would have believed a high performance EV might attract a higher insurance premium than an everyday EV?
Doesn't happen with ICE vehicles does it!!

Pointless initial post by you then ?

Why is it pointless? Yet again you show your ignorance. Insurance companies will vary their loadings due to risk. If the performance Ev's accident rate continues as they become more common, insurance companies will adjust their premiums to suit.

 

[wyx087]

I think they may want to take a look at their maths. The Tesla they bought is "a little more expensive" at $41k and expect to hire more police officers with the $6k they will save annually on fuel. I wonder how many extra officers they can hire with $6k. The $41k is for a car that needs to be modified for police use. The Dodge Charger comes in at a little over $21.2k, an extra $918 gets you a V8 engine and for $1758 you get a V8 and AWD, all before modification.

That isn't even close to $41k.

You've selectively ignored that over 6 years with fuel $6,000 saving per year, the Tesla can almost pay for itself. There is also maintenance savings on top.

No where said fuel savings alone will be able to fund new police officers, might be just used to fund hiring program.

Then, there's the improved police image by going with EV.
There is also improved comfort for police waiting in their silent cars with aircon running at perfect temperature.

 

[PaulF]

To save $6k per year, the Indiana police are getting around 15mpg for their V8 chargers, does that sound about right? Guess it could do if they're putting their foot down a bit.
(assuming the average of 100 miles per day 365 days a year).

Good on em, if they can make that work why the hell not. I doubt they will be changing all their vehicles to EV so will have options for which every vehicle is suitable.

 

[nilagin]

You've selectively ignored that over 6 years with fuel $6,000 saving per year, the Tesla can almost pay for itself. There is also maintenance savings on top.

No where said fuel savings alone will be able to fund new police officers, might be just used to fund hiring program.

Then, there's the improved police image by going with EV.
There is also improved comfort for police waiting in their silent cars with aircon running at perfect temperature.

Dodge Charger average annual service and maintenance costs . $223. or $1115 over a 5yr period.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAKegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw0QUO07yW0TBD9kHWSpaB--
Model 3 service costs, not including maintenance repairs and if some work is carried out yourself
$980 over a 5yr period.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...AhAB&usg=AOvVaw3qX_WbPb1LRWr0Jqo65Czy&ampcf=1
As both vehicles are likely to see more mileage during the course of a year than average usage, costs will be higher in both cases for a police car. But for 6yrs use let's call it $1338 for the Dodge and $1176 for the Tesla
So price difference in buying the cars $17k more for Tesla, take off $6k for fuel saving, that's down to $11k difference, take off a rounded up $200 for difference in servicing costs, still leaves the Tesla costing $10.8k more. So no I haven't selectively ignored anything.

It would take almost 3yrs before the fuel and service cost saving allows the Tesla to break even with the cost of the expenditure of the Dodge.
Lowest wage for a Police officer in he state appears to be approx. $30k So they would need to buy five Tesla's now, not one, to pay the wages of one officer in over 3 years time. If they are replacing their cars every 6yrs, they will only get 3 yrs wages paid for one officer(without getting a payrise). What happens then? Do they layoff their officer for 3yrs until they can afford to pay him again.

 

[wyx087]

To save $6k per year, the Indiana police are getting around 15mpg for their V8 chargers, does that sound about right? Guess it could do if they're putting their foot down a bit.
(assuming the average of 100 miles per day 365 days a year).

Good on em, if they can make that work why the hell not. I doubt they will be changing all their vehicles to EV so will have options for which every vehicle is suitable.

What about all gas used to keep the heater going when the sitting in car eating doughnuts?

No, you can't stop a pursuit to charge the battery. So I also don't think they'll change all their vehicles to EV.
EV will suit normal patrol cars a lot more than ICE cars: silent, efficient, cheap running cost, air-con can run independent of engine, etc.

So price difference in buying the cars $17k more for Tesla, take off $6k for fuel saving, that's down to $11k difference, take off a rounded up $200 for difference in servicing costs, still leaves the Tesla costing $10.8k more. So no I haven't selectively ignored anything.

It says $6k fuel saving per year. I got $19k in favour of Tesla from fuel savings alone, starting with your $17k more expensive initial purchase cost.
Paul evidently have better reading skills.

 

[nilagin]

What about all gas used to keep the heater going when the sitting in car eating doughnuts?

No, you can't stop a pursuit to charge the battery. So I also don't think they'll change all their vehicles to EV.
EV will suit normal patrol cars a lot more than ICE cars: silent, efficient, cheap running cost, air-con can run independent of engine, etc.


It says $6k fuel saving per year. I got $19k in favour of Tesla from fuel savings alone, starting with your $17k more expensive initial purchase cost.
Paul evidently have better reading skills.

The Tesla is only a suitable replacement for the likes of the Dodge Charger, but then it isn't the most popular choice of police patrol vehicle in North America. That would be an SUV. The Dodge isn't even the most popular choice of saloon car for a police patrol car, that goes to a much larger saloon car, capable of carrying more essential equipment than the Dodge or the Tesla.

Nothing wrong with my reading skills. Plenty wrong with yours though, or did you deliberately omit part of my post just to try to undermine me and make yourself look good. What you quoted was just one years expenditure.
Here Is the bit you missed out (showing your lack of integrity?)

It would take almost 3yrs before the fuel and service cost saving allows the Tesla to break even with the cost of the expenditure of the Dodge.
Lowest wage for a Police officer in he state appears to be approx. $30k So they would need to buy five Tesla's now, not one, to pay the wages of one officer in over 3 years time. If they are replacing their cars every 6yrs, they will only get 3 yrs wages paid for one officer(without getting a payrise). What happens then? Do they layoff their officer for 3yrs until they can afford to pay him again.

Be careful you don't go near a stationary American police car, they may try to eat you. You really are a doughnut.

 

[dod]

The likelihood of the police paying full cost up front for either of these vehicles is nil. Therefore the cost estimates being bandied about here are about as useful as something not very useful.

The only thing we can reasonably assume is that the Police have looked at the actual figures and came to the conclusion that the Tesla deal overall is better for them. That may not only be a financial decision, there could also be PR considerations as well.

 

[nilagin]

The likelihood of the police paying full cost up front for either of these vehicles is nil. Therefore the cost estimates being bandied about here are about as useful as something not very useful.

The only thing we can reasonably assume is that the Police have looked at the actual figures and came to the conclusion that the Tesla deal overall is better for them. That may not only be a financial decision, there could also be PR considerations as well.

The costing of the Dodge is from a specialist company that supplies Police vehicles. The cost of the Tesla is what the police say they paid for the car.

 

[dod]

The costing of the Dodge is from a specialist company that supplies Police vehicles. The cost of the Tesla is what the police say they paid for the car.

Apologies, missed that.

 

[wyx087]

Here Is the bit you missed out

And here is your bit that is wrong (hence I quoted it last time):

So price difference in buying the cars $17k more for Tesla, take off $6k for fuel saving, that's down to $11k difference, take off a rounded up $200 for difference in servicing costs, still leaves the Tesla costing $10.8k more.

How is the Tesla costing $10.8k more? Oh that's right, it only cost more because you've strangely taken 1 year of fuel cost and applied to cost of the car. The "$10.8k more" is a very obvious false statistic to obscure the real saving when going EV. Why don't you simply list the total cost of both cars over 6 years rather than talk through police offers wages and use convoluted maths.

Over 6 service years:
Dodge Charger: Buy: $22k; fuel cost: X * 6 years => $22k + 6X.
Tesla Model 3: Buy: $41k, fuel cost: (X-$6k) * 6 years => $5k + 6X.

You are not correcting statements. You are putting a spin on statements to make EV's look bad.


Although to be fair, I don't deny your points regarding police usually use bigger cars and your research into service costs.

As dod mentioned, it might also be a PR move to try to get more young people interested to becoming a police officer.

 

[nilagin]

And here is your bit that is wrong (hence I quoted it last time):

How is the Tesla costing $10.8k more? Oh that's right, it only cost more because you've strangely taken 1 year of fuel cost and applied to cost of the car. The "$10.8k more" is a very obvious false statistic to obscure the real saving when going EV. Why don't you simply list the total cost of both cars over 6 years rather than talk through police offers wages and use convoluted maths.

Over 6 service years:
Dodge Charger: Buy: $22k; fuel cost: X * 6 years => $22k + 6X.
Tesla Model 3: Buy: $41k, fuel cost: (X-$6k) * 6 years => $5k + 6X.

You are not correcting statements. You are putting a spin on statements to make EV's look bad.


Although to be fair, I don't deny your points regarding police usually use bigger cars and your research into service costs.

As dod mentioned, it might also be a PR move to try to get more young people interested to becoming a police officer.

I know you struggle with the maths but do I really need to do all the write it all the workings down for you? The part you have now quoted twice is correct. It is the cost after 1 year.
I then quite clearly stated ( in the part that you conveniently deleted when quoting me) that it takes almost 3yrs for the cost of the Tesla plus savings to break even with the cost of the Dodge. I also state that for the remainder of the 6yrs service of the car they will be saving money but still not enough to pay a police officers wages and they would need to go through the exact same cycle every 6 years.
So now after 6 yrs they have saved $19k, not enough to pay one officers wages for a year. A search on Google earlier, reveals the police force in this case is relatively small. Just 11 officers and 5 cars and they plan to replace all their cars eventually with Tesla's. No time scale given so a possibility the cars are different ages and won't reach their 6yr service at the same time. So at some point they will have the capability of saving $95k per year. Enough to finance 3 officers and that assumes additional patrol cars won't be needed for them.
But the fact still remains as each Tesla reaches 6yrs old and they replace it, they won't be saving any money with the replacement for almost 3yrs, so do they lay off one or more officers until they have the money to start paying them again.

There Is no spin on statements and no attempt to make EV look bad. As a vehicle the Tesla may work well for them. But the numbers just simply don't add up for what they wish to do with the savings. Now if they were banking those annual savings and putting the $19k towards a replacement in 6yrs time, that would reduce their future expenditure on replacement cars in the future and then they maybe able to hire more officers. But it won't finance both in the immediate future.

 

[wyx087]

But the fact still remains as each Tesla reaches 6yrs old and they replace it, they won't be saving any money with the replacement for almost 3yrs, so do they lay off one or more officers until they have the money to start paying them again.

Is this a fact though?
Do they pay full cost of the EV on day 1 and "not saving any money" for first 3 years? Or do they pay monthly and they will be saving money every month.

You were always quick to point out worse interest rates for EV's compared to the one single brand in UK. So I'm surprised you've glossed over this and concentrated on unit cost of the car in this instance.

(that is similar discussion strategy to your SUV point. Bring up a not very relevant point to support my side of argument )

 

[DK602]

I know you struggle with the maths but do I really need to do all the write it all the workings down for you? The part you have now quoted twice is correct. It is the cost after 1 year.
I then quite clearly stated ( in the part that you conveniently deleted when quoting me) that it takes almost 3yrs for the cost of the Tesla plus savings to break even with the cost of the Dodge. I also state that for the remainder of the 6yrs service of the car they will be saving money but still not enough to pay a police officers wages and they would need to go through the exact same cycle every 6 years.
So now after 6 yrs they have saved $19k, not enough to pay one officers wages for a year. A search on Google earlier, reveals the police force in this case is relatively small. Just 11 officers and 5 cars and they plan to replace all their cars eventually with Tesla's. No time scale given so a possibility the cars are different ages and won't reach their 6yr service at the same time. So at some point they will have the capability of saving $95k per year. Enough to finance 3 officers and that assumes additional patrol cars won't be needed for them.
But the fact still remains as each Tesla reaches 6yrs old and they replace it, they won't be saving any money with the replacement for almost 3yrs, so do they lay off one or more officers until they have the money to start paying them again.

There Is no spin on statements and no attempt to make EV look bad. As a vehicle the Tesla may work well for them. But the numbers just simply don't add up for what they wish to do with the savings. Now if they were banking those annual savings and putting the $19k towards a replacement in 6yrs time, that would reduce their future expenditure on replacement cars in the future and then they maybe able to hire more officers. But it won't finance both in the immediate future.

Ahhh - well done! You are saying the accountants who have calculated the costs have got it wrong but you have got it correct even though you have no access to the accounts and expenditure.

You really are something else when it comes to anything scientific.

 

[nilagin]

Is this a fact though?
Do they pay full cost of the EV on day 1 and "not saving any money" for first 3 years? Or do they pay monthly and they will be saving money every month.

You were always quick to point out worse interest rates for EV's compared to the one single brand in UK. So I'm surprised you've glossed over this and concentrated on unit cost of the car in this instance.

(that is similar discussion strategy to your SUV point. Bring up a not very relevant point to support my side of argument )

Do they pay up front for the Dodge or do they pay monthly. Either way it still takes just short of 3 years to reach the break even point.
You said the Model 3 will make a suitable choice for a normal police car. Since the most popular vehicle of choice in America for police vehicles is an SUV it is relevant. Majority of American police forces are obviously choosing an SUV for a reason, whatever reason that is, the Dodge and Tesla obviously aren't a suitable option. So whilst the Tesla will make a suitable replacement for similar sized saloon cars it won't replace the normal police vehicle as the normal police vehicle isn't a saloon.

 

[dod]

The costing of the Dodge is from a specialist company that supplies Police vehicles. The cost of the Tesla is what the police say they paid for the car.

Okay, I've read it all now and there is only one fact we can establish from the article. The Police believe that they will almost break even over 6 years and they're going to spend the savings in their budget on officers. That statement doesn't really make much sense to me but we don't know how their budget works. It may well be that the purchase cost is financed over time, paid for out of a different budget, who knows. But it doesn't matter really, they've made their decision based on their criteria.

All you've done is try to say that the Police department have got it wrong. Your figures don't really have any relevance in this debate as the only ones that matter are the Police ones, and unless you've got access to them, we don't know exactly what they are or how they came about them. It doesn't matter anyway, they've made their decision which was to buy an EV and not an ICE vehicle. For some reason you feel the need to discredit that? Why? It makes no difference to you unless you have some other agenda?

I know, you're only trying to correct what you feel are incorrect statements Well, if that's the case why don't you approach them and tell them they've made a mistake? I'm sure they'll be relieved to have that pointed out to them.

As dod mentioned, it might also be a PR move to try to get more young people interested to becoming a police officer.

I was thinking more in terms of CSR but there might also be an attempt to appeal to potential recruits as well.

 

[nilagin]

Ahhh - well done! You are saying the accountants who have calculated the costs have got it wrong but you have got it correct even though you have no access to the accounts and expenditure.

You really are something else when it comes to anything scientific.

I have access to all the information that is necessary.
A quick bit of Googling provides the missing figures from the story.
So we have
Cost of both cars.
Cost of maintenance and service of both cars.
The police estimation of how much the annual fuel saving will be.
The minimum wages of a police officer in that state.

Now run along and try your trolling elsewhere.

 

[nilagin]

Okay, I've read it all now and there is only one fact we can establish from the article. The Police believe that they will almost break even over 6 years and they're going to spend the savings in their budget on officers. That statement doesn't really make much sense to me but we don't know how their budget works. It may well be that the purchase cost is financed over time, paid for out of a different budget, who knows. But it doesn't matter really, they've made their decision based on their criteria.

All you've done is try to say that the Police department have got it wrong. Your figures don't really have any relevance in this debate as the only ones that matter are the Police ones, and unless you've got access to them, we don't know exactly what they are or how they came about them. It doesn't matter anyway, they've made their decision which was to buy an EV and not an ICE vehicle. For some reason you feel the need to discredit that? Why? It makes no difference to you unless you have some other agenda?

I know, you're only trying to correct what you feel are incorrect statements Well, if that's the case why don't you approach them and tell them they've made a mistake? I'm sure they'll be relieved to have that pointed out to them.


I was thinking more in terms of CSR but there might also be an attempt to appeal to potential recruits as well.

There are no other costs to take into account. The maintenance figures I have quoted will be for an average mileage user and the police usage figures will likely be higher. But they will be higher for both vehicles.
The Tesla figures were just for servicing, they don't include maintenance costs for things that may break and require replacement outside of warranty, where as the Dodge figure was for servicing and maintenance costs. The Tesla figure also didn't include battery coolant replacement, which needs to be done every 4 years. If that is also mileage/charging related, then the police vehicle may need that carried out more often. It could just be once in the 6yrs service, it could possibly need it done twice.

The figures I have used have actually been lenient in Tesla's favour.

 

[dod]

The figures I have used have actually been lenient in Tesla's favour.

The point I'm making, and DK602, is that they're YOUR figures. They aren't relevant. The Police have theirs and that's what they've made a decision on. The arrogance to suggest they've got it wrong is breathtaking.
I'm not saying public bodies are never wrong but their procurement processes are usually fairly robust, in the evaluation stages anyway.

 

[dod]

Right. We've been discussing this thread in the staff room and have came to the conclusion that as it's so far away from the original message that we've no choice but to close it.
If anyone wants to start a new one fill your boots.

However, if one does get raised and it gets derailed in the same way this one has been it will either be closed or people won't be allowed to post in it.