Car Tax Disk Failure

I've said for years, why don't they scrap the current car tax system and put the tax on fuel instead? They could work it out so the 'average' current car tax cost equates to the cost of the additional fuel tax for the same car travelling 10,000 miles a year, then it's sorted. The more you drive, the more you pay, the less MPG your car does, the more you pay, and vice versa. No one can cheat that (unless they try to run on red diesel, in which case they're probably not the sort to tax their car anyway!).
 
I'm guessing all the posters that want fuel to increase begrudge paying road tax because they only drive to the shops and back , the rest of us that need a car or van for work pay plenty of tax already , isn't fuel duty 70% or more.

When the electric car takes off road pricing will come in , you'll have a black box in the car that will log every mile you drive and charge you for it because the government won't let you run it for £3 a day charge up cost , manufacturers will charge £70-100 a month to rent the battery on top
 
Battery lease model doesn’t work. The Zoes with it are near worthless. Even 2 year old cars struggle to sell and Nissan have dumped battery lease pretty much.

Easier solution is separate meter for vehicle charging that is costed at a higher rate. Far better than some road pricing nonsense. Much cheaper to implement too.
 
I'm guessing all the posters that want fuel to increase begrudge paying road tax because they only drive to the shops and back , the rest of us that need a car or van for work pay plenty of tax already , isn't fuel duty 70% or more.
If vehicle licence fund was added to petrol and diesel, it would mean no one could avoid paying it and there would be no lost revenue, I doubt it would really add much to the price of fuel.
 
Snip:
I'm guessing all the posters that want fuel to increase begrudge paying road tax because they only drive to the shops and back , the rest of us that need a car or van for work pay plenty of tax already , isn't fuel duty 70% or more.

Firstly, if you're referring to my post then I think you've probably misunderstood it? I suggested that they transferred what we're supposed to be paying now in road tax onto the cost of fuel. That way no-one can freeload off others and evade it. If they want to drive their car, van, truck, moped or whatever on the public highway then they have to pay their fair share of tax.

Do I only drive to the shops and back? I can drive anything between 11K and 30K miles a year depending on where I'm working, and I drive one of those 'massive' 4x4s that some people moan about! However, I use my vehicle for work and need this sort of vehicle for the job I do (not as a fashion or lifestyle accessory, or as a 'hobby' vehicle). I've no objection to paying my dues, but I do object to the minority that don't pay into the system, which means they leech of all the others that do.

If they put the current Vehicle Excise Duty on fuel then it should stop most people evading it, plus we pay for what we use. As long as it's worked out fairly and doesn't increase the financial burden for people that already pay the correct amount of current vehicle excise duty and fuel tax, then surely that would be a better system? They might even be able to drop the amount we pay if everyone is chipping in and there's no tax evasion shortfall to pay for? (y)
 
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I doubt it would really add much to the price of fuel.
Well I'd certainly hope they played fair. The calculations shouldn't be that difficult, they know how much fuel is sold ( via the ridiculous amount of tax there is on it)
They know how much they gain in RFL. ( and how much they are currently losing)
If it ever comes to that method, I would hope that they "break even" and not use it as an excuse to rip us off once again.
 
Well I'd certainly hope they played fair. The calculations shouldn't be that difficult, they know how much fuel is sold ( via the ridiculous amount of tax there is on it)
They know how much they gain in RFL. ( and how much they are currently losing)
If it ever comes to that method, I would hope that they "break even" and not use it as an excuse to rip us off once again.
Even if the ripped us off by adding an extra 1p per litre over breaking even, the motorist won't notice it but the extra raised would be quite considerable.
 
Even if the ripped us off by adding an extra 1p per litre over breaking even,
But my point was I wonder actually what would be the equivalent on a liter.

Lets try and work this out, in my works diesel van and average of 45 mpg and circa 50,000 miles a year.
45 / 50,000 = 1111.1 gallons a year.
road tax is £180.00 thats circa 16.p per gallon 3.5p / L

My car covers abut 3000 miles per year and an average of 25mpg
25 / 3000 = 120 galls / year
Road tax is £280. that works out at £2.30p per gallon. / 51p / L

So where does the parity come into this?

addendum .. I'm crap at maths so if anyone else wants a shot at this ...
 
But my point was I wonder actually what would be the equivalent on a liter.

Lets try and work this out, in my works diesel van and average of 45 mpg and circa 50,000 miles a year.
45 / 50,000 = 1111.1 gallons a year.
road tax is £180.00 thats circa 16.p per gallon 3.5p / L

My car covers abut 3000 miles per year and an average of 25mpg
25 / 3000 = 120 galls / year
Road tax is £280. that works out at £2.30p per gallon. / 51p / L

So where does the parity come into this?

addendum .. I'm crap at maths so if anyone else wants a shot at this ...
If done fairly most people should be better off as they will be making up for the loss of revenue from those that fail to pay. I suspect the only people who may well lose out are those who don't have to pay any at present or are only paying £20 a year. They could continue with their vehicle licence taxation on new cars although at a reduced rate to current fees as you'd end up paying twice. It was £800 on the price of my car but next year onwards it will only cost me £140.
 
I suspect the only people who may well lose out are those who don't have to pay any at present or are only paying £20 a year.
True enough, but I suspect that won't last for ever either ;)
As of April this year owners of electric cars don't pay road tax.
As the plan is to make all (!) vehicles electric that is a massive chunk of revenue they are going to lose out on, under the current scheme ;)

( the best I could find was from a few years ago, and that was £5.9bn from vehicle excise duty (VED). and you can bet its a lot more now)
 
Electricity isn't free unless you go 'off grid' and even then there's the initial cost of the equipment/machinery required to do that to recoup. They'd presumable make the shortfall up by VAT and tax on the electricity consumed to charge all those batteries up, then there's the additional VAT on the cost of the electric vehicle, which are currently dearer than the equivalent petrol & diesel vehicles, so I doubt HM Government would go skint!
 
Electricity isn't free unless you go 'off grid' and even then there's the initial cost of the equipment/machinery required to do that to recoup. They'd presumable make the shortfall up by VAT and tax on the electricity consumed to charge all those batteries up, then there's the additional VAT on the cost of the electric vehicle, which are currently dearer than the equivalent petrol & diesel vehicles, so I doubt HM Government would go skint!
Anyone where I work with an electric car can charge it for free at work, true they don't have many charging points, but if only on charge for a few hours and then moved so someone else can recharge, they can currently charge 20 or so cars a day. But as the number of electric cars increase on the roads I would have thought we would have more charging points installed at work. If those charge points are then powered by wind turbines and solar power, the government won't be getting any additional revenue from them.
 
Anyone where I work with an electric car can charge it for free at work, true they don't have many charging points, but if only on charge for a few hours and then moved so someone else can recharge, they can currently charge 20 or so cars a day. But as the number of electric cars increase on the roads I would have thought we would have more charging points installed at work. If those charge points are then powered by wind turbines and solar power, the government won't be getting any additional revenue from them.
I'm sure they'll find a way :)
 
I had an electric car on test a few years ago, but I only ever went as far as the end of the drive and back in it each time I drove it.... as that's as far as the extension lead would reach! ;)

The old ones are the best! :D
 
Anyone where I work with an electric car can charge it for free at work, true they don't have many charging points, but if only on charge for a few hours and then moved so someone else can recharge, they can currently charge 20 or so cars a day. But as the number of electric cars increase on the roads I would have thought we would have more charging points installed at work. If those charge points are then powered by wind turbines and solar power, the government won't be getting any additional revenue from them.

Soon someone will start selling a car that can do 1000km on a single charge and needing daily charging will be become less of an issue while at work.

Oh, wait, someone just has, now it just needs to get cheaper ;)
 
Soon someone will start selling a car that can do 1000km on a single charge and needing daily charging will be become less of an issue while at work.

Oh, wait, someone just has, now it just needs to get cheaper ;)
But if it's free at work and you pay at home or elsewhere, people will probably rather charge it at work.
As I said before Tesla have along way to go to sort their production woes, they struggle to build cars for their current orders, let alone if they were cheaper and more people could afford them.
 
But if it's free at work and you pay at home or elsewhere, people will probably rather charge it at work.
As I said before Tesla have along way to go to sort their production woes, they struggle to build cars for their current orders, let alone if they were cheaper and more people could afford them.

Where do you think the tech will be in 5 or 10 years?

The 1st Tesla came out in 2008, what was Ford doing in 1911, 9 years after their first car was launched?
 
Where do you think the tech will be in 5 or 10 years?

The 1st Tesla came out in 2008, what was Ford doing in 1911, 9 years after their first car was launched?
I have no idea what Ford were doing in 1911 apart from building and selling cars. But 2 years later they introduced the world' first moving production line which reduced the time to build a car from 30hrs down to around 2.5hrs.
Now production lines are even further automated so whilst there is a lot more to go into cars the technology to produce cars is already there.
I am not sure which model Tesla it was but when it was launched they failed to build many cars for months and what they did produce in it's first year, the majority was built in the last 2 or 3 months of that year. After the most recent Tesla was supposed to go into production a lot of the production line robots were still in packaging in the factory months later.
Sure some manufacturers have supply problems or production errors to overcome now and then but to be months behind on installing the equipment and getting into full production over and over again is a bit much. They would have done better to pay another manufacturer to build the cars for them. At least they might be making a profit by now.
 
Who would Tesla pay? Anyone that builds cars will do for their rivals. Those rivals want to see them fail so they can carry on producing their old cars without having to do more than change the headlight design and make some token effort on emissions every upgrade cycle.

The Roadster 1 was the first car they made. I think they have made about 250,000 cars now.
 
I've said for years, why don't they scrap the current car tax system and put the tax on fuel instead? They could work it out so the 'average' current car tax cost equates to the cost of the additional fuel tax for the same car travelling 10,000 miles a year, then it's sorted. The more you drive, the more you pay, the less MPG your car does, the more you pay, and vice versa. No one can cheat that (unless they try to run on red diesel, in which case they're probably not the sort to tax their car anyway!).
Not strictly true ... Google red diesel fraud. If there's a way of not paying those of a criminal mind will find it
 
Not strictly true ... Google red diesel fraud. If there's a way of not paying those of a criminal mind will find it
Surly avoiding a tax on the liquid that makes a vehicle move has got to be a lot more difficult than buying a cheap car (probably with no MOT on it either) and not bothering to tax it, knowing that if you do get stopped by the police and the vehicle is confiscated you can walk away with a loss of less than that 12 months car tax alone would have cost in the first place? I don't think that takes a criminal mastermind to perpetrate!

What about the fine for the driver of the vehicle? Fines only work if the enforcement agencies know the genuine identity and permanent address of the guilty individual, and that individual has the means to pay the fine. Just watch one of those Police Camera road traffic type programmes and see what happens to people that drive without current VED.

At least if VED is put on fuel it would rule out the soft option of just not paying it (or forgetting to pay it) in the first place. Unless, of course, HMG/HMRC are happy to write off the reported/alleged £100 million loss on VED revenue this year http://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/enthusiasts/the-%c2%a3100-million-question-why-is-car-tax-evasion-rocketing/ar-BBF3xa0?li=BBoPJKX&ocid=DELLDHP17 ? On the other hand, they could hold 18 months or more of focus groups, workshops and stakeholder consultations to be told the obvious (either bring back the tax disk or put VED on fuel), after all, it's only public money that's paying for it (or not!), as the case may be.
 
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I really don’t get this, as others have said if it’s not SORNed and it’s not taxed issue a fine, any registered vehicle has to be one or the other...it should be nothing more than an algorithm on the database on the 10th working day of the month run a check any cars not complying issue a fine, I’m sure CAPITA or SERCO would happily provide the service for a percentage of the fines :LOL: if the DVLA cannot be arsed to do it themselves
 
And where would you send the fine to? Or do you expect that a person who buys a cheap car for cash with the aim of evading car tax would provide the seller and DVLA with their real name and address? Doing checks and sending out final reminders/demands (probably a pre-requisite of fining someone) would probably cost as much as the old tax disk system; it might encourage those who've genuinely forgotten or been taken ill, etc.to pay, but it would probably also encourage some people to wait until they got the final demand. I very much doubt it would prevent much intentional VED evasion.

As for anyone who is currently exempt from VED, I'm sure a simple system could be brought in to ensure they aren't out of pocket. Those with hybrid and high MPG cars wouldn't pay as much as they use less fuel. Ok, so people who currently don't pay car tax due to low CO2 cars would have to start paying their fair share, but as their cars still use fuel they still cause some pollution (particulates, etc.) so they should be paying something; after all, it's still fossil fuel those vehicles run on, not pixie dust! They could always lower the purchase tax on such vehicles as an incentive to buy them.

What about classic car owners who currently don't pay VED? True classic cars kept by people who want to preserve them probably don't do many miles a year, so they won't pay much if VED is put on the cost of fuel. Those that use a classic car for everyday motoring should have to cough up like the rest of us!
 
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Electricity isn't free...
It can be. This country has so much wind and solar generation now that there are times (when it's both windy and sunny, or when it's windy at night) that National Grid have so much electricity sloshing around they don't know what to do with it. One of the current Big Things in the electricity industry is battery storage, so you can charge up your batteries when electricity is cheap and discharge when it's expensive. And at times National Grid will even pay them to charge up if it's cheaper than paying wind generators to switch off their turbines.

So it's conceivable that charging your cars overnight might be free, at least sometimes.
 
Providing the sun shines brightly enough. :naughty:
And its the "right kind" of wind of course ....
ie not contaminated with leaves and such like :D
 
Simple thing is to work out how much car tax is worth - then how much fuel is used pa. Work out what would need to go onto fuel in order to get back the revenue that way (I would guess something minimal like 0.1 p per litre or something. Those that use roads more then pay more etc... Simpler to administer and cant dodge it either. I really do think more of our taxation could be simpler.
 
Snip:

Firstly, if you're referring to my post then I think you've probably misunderstood it? I suggested that they transferred what we're supposed to be paying now in road tax onto the cost of fuel. That way no-one can freeload off others and evade it. If they want to drive their car, van, truck, moped or whatever on the public highway then they have to pay their fair share of tax.


Sorry posters was a bit specific, I meant in general , whenever I see road tax should be on fuel mentioned on any forum it's usually people that begrudge paying £250 a year when they only drive to asda and back , it's a pointless discussion anyway , it'll never happen because when they try and increase fuel duty by pennies in the budget there's uproar so why would they add to that by cancelling the double bubble that they have now , road tax and huge fuel duty

When cars had tax discs I saw a warden issuing a ticket, he had a barcode scanner and a printer, he zapped the tax disc barcode and printed out a ticket which he put in a bag and stuck on the windscreen, 30 seconds , I wonder if they've had to go back to a pad and a pen

Solar panels can still produce electricity on a cloudy day.

Don't cars need a bigger charger than a 13a plug can provide, do solar panels create that kind of power
 
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If they put the current Vehicle Excise Duty on fuel then it should stop most people evading it, plus we pay for what we use. As long as it's worked out fairly and doesn't increase the financial burden for people that already pay the correct amount of current vehicle excise duty and fuel tax, then surely that would be a better system? They might even be able to drop the amount we pay if everyone is chipping in and there's no tax evasion shortfall to pay for? (y)
It would be a better system. It would mean some quite big charges for people who do big mileage though.

In 2016-17, fuel duty raised about £27.6 bn, and therefore the VAT on fuel duty raised £5.5 bn, so the total tax take from fuel was £33.1 bn. Meanwhile vehicle excise duty raised £5.5bn [1]. Fuel duty is 58p per litre, and fuel duty + VAT is 70p per litre. So if you folded VED into it you'd have to increase the fuel duty by about 10p, or 12p including VAT. Or maybe a little more, because business users would be able to reclaim the VAT on the extra fuel duty whereas they can't reclaim VED. Say 13p per litre including VAT, to allow for that.

I can't be bothered to look up actual average figures, but if you drive a "typical" amount of 10,000 miles per year at 40 mpg, folding VED into fuel duty at 13p per litre will cost you about £150, which seems like a reasonably fair replacement for VED. I can't see too many people complaining about that. But if you do 50,000 miles per year at 40 mpg, it's £750 instead of £150. That would hurt. Of course most of us would say it's only fair, those that drive the most pay the most, but it would still hurt.

However ... despite it being a better system, it won't happen. Here's why.

When you start arguing that the people who drive the most should pay the most, you get awkward people like economists asking why? What is the actual point of motoring taxes? It isn't to build and maintain roads. Motoring taxes aren't hypothecated, at least not since the 1930s, and hopefully never will be in future. Hypothecation is a terrible idea. The only logical purpose for collecting taxes from road users as opposed to via any other method is to compensate society for the negative externalities which road usage creates - obvious ones such as delays, noise, pollution, and casualties, plus less obvious (and less easily quantified) ones such as physical inactivity and community severance.

But there are two problems with that. One is that, while some of these negative externalities are related fairly simply to the volume of car usage - and could therefore be internalised via fuel duty - some (such as congestion and casualties) obviously aren't. The second is that, whenever people try to measure these externalities, they always conclude that they're far bigger than the current level of road user taxation. So the only logical solution is (1) a road pricing system in tandem with fuel duty; and (2) *much* higher taxation of road users.

The current system of VED isn't logically justifiable, but it has the huge advantage that it is the system we have. Obviously no government would want to switch to a new system which is not logically justifiable. But any system which is logically justifiable Is politically unpalatable. So it won't happen.

[1] "A survey of the UK tax system", Institute for Fiscal Studies, November 2016 - https://www.ifs.org.uk/bns/bn09.pdf
 
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And where would you send the fine to? Or do you expect that a person who buys a cheap car for cash with the aim of evading car tax would provide the seller and DVLA with their real name and address? Doing checks and sending out final reminders/demands (probably a pre-requisite of fining someone) would probably cost as much as the old tax disk system; it might encourage those who've genuinely forgotten or been taken ill, etc.to pay, but it would probably also encourage some people to wait until they got the final demand. I very much doubt it would prevent much intentional VED evasion.

As for anyone who is currently exempt from VED, I'm sure a simple system could be brought in to ensure they aren't out of pocket. Those with hybrid and high MPG cars wouldn't pay as much as they use less fuel. Ok, so people who currently don't pay car tax due to low CO2 cars would have to start paying their fair share, but as their cars still use fuel they still cause some pollution (particulates, etc.) so they should be paying something; after all, it's still fossil fuel those vehicles run on, not pixie dust! They could always lower the purchase tax on such vehicles as an incentive to buy them.

What about classic car owners who currently don't pay VED? True classic cars kept by people who want to preserve them probably don't do many miles a year, so they won't pay much if VED is put on the cost of fuel. Those that use a classic car for everyday motoring should have to cough up like the rest of us!

That's where to police come in, and increasing number of police cars are fitted with ANPR systems, that flag up cars of interest, this includes but is not limited to un-tax, un-insured and un-MOTed, if a car is on the road without Tax or MoT then the cars insurance is not valid in any case so that car can be taken off the road, and if not rectified within 14 days crushed or sold if there's the value in doing so

The DVLA, already send send out reminder letters to either re-SORN or tax your vehicle, so I see no reason why the next letter send can not be a fine or threat there of
 
I can't be bothered to look up actual average figures, but if you drive a "typical" amount of 10,000 miles per year at 40 mpg, folding VED into fuel duty at 13p per litre will cost you about £150, which seems like a reasonably fair replacement for VED. I can't see too many people complaining about that. But if you do 50,000 miles per year at 40 mpg, it's £750 instead of £150. That would hurt. Of course most of us would say it's only fair, those that drive the most pay the most, but it would still hurt.
You don't fancy taking a look at my calculations in post #51 by any chance?
Based on actual mileage etc..
I may be way off ..
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/car-tax-disk-failure.667559/page-2#post-8007050
 
That's where to police come in, and increasing number of police cars are fitted with ANPR systems, that flag up cars of interest, this includes but is not limited to un-tax, un-insured and un-MOTed, if a car is on the road without Tax or MoT then the cars insurance is not valid in any case so that car can be taken off the road, and if not rectified within 14 days crushed or sold if there's the value in doing so
You can insure a car regardless of whether it has an MOT or VED. Insurance cover is still active even if an MOT or VED are overdue.
 
Insurance cover is still active even if an MOT or VED are overdue.
I was under the impression that if the car was not MOT'd then the insurance is void ...
( as it shouldn't be on he road ) But of course that's not to say you can't insure it, just pity the poor sod that they hit.
 
I was under the impression that if the car was not MOT'd then the insurance is void ...
( as it shouldn't be on he road ) But of course that's not to say you can't insure it, just pity the poor sod that they hit.
What about when the MOT has run out and you are allowed to drive to a pre booked test.
 
You can insure a car regardless of whether it has an MOT or VED. Insurance cover is still active even if an MOT or VED are overdue.

Wrong, a car with no MOT is deemed unroadworthy and insurance would be invalidated
 
What about when the MOT has run out and you are allowed to drive to a pre booked test.

No, you need to get the test station to collect it
 
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