Climate change protesters (Extinction Rebellion (XR) activists)

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Instead of fawning before this modern day prophet, the presenters on the Today Programme might ask her to explain just how this new political system of hers will work. From what I can make out, it doesn't seem to have much in common with democracy as I understand it.
It's the Jeanne d'Arc principle. It worked out very well for the French in the 1430s (or so I've been told). :thinking:
 
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Rich
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Might also help if it was clearer what can and cannot be recycled.
Every local authority seems to be different, surely it's more cut and dried than that?
 
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Phil
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Might also help if it was clearer what can and cannot be recycled.
Every local authority seems to be different, surely it's more cut and dried than that?
The obvious answer is that it's not about what 'can' be recycled - but what your local authority can deal with.

We had a recent change of contractor - and they'll now take items they never used to take - but no longer take some items they used to.
 
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Rich
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The obvious answer is that it's not about what 'can' be recycled - but what your local authority can deal with.

We had a recent change of contractor - and they'll now take items they never used to take - but no longer take some items they used to.
Shouldn't they all be dealing with all of it?
 
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Robin
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Shouldn't they all be dealing with all of it?
.... In an ideal world, most definitely. The lack of overall organisation and coordination is shocking and does not bode well for the future. It's a joke, but not one that is funny.
 
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Brian
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I dont understand why non essential plastics are still permitted. Take plastic plant pots. No reason they have to be plastic but they are almost universally practically indestructable and non- recyclable. Why not just ban them?
 

StewartR

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I dont understand why non essential plastics are still permitted. Take plastic plant pots. No reason they have to be plastic but they are almost universally practically indestructable and non- recyclable. Why not just ban them?
Because it wouldn't work. People and organisations who are the subject of regulations and bans are highly motivated to find ways round them, because their profits and potentially even their businesses are at risk. People who write the regulations aren't so highly motivated to get it exactly 100% right.

For example - There's this company which sells plastic buckets. They're practically indestructible and they come in colours like brown and green. They're not very good buckets, because they don't have handles and they have holes in the bottom, but - pssst, dont tell anyone - they can actually be used quite well to put plants in, which is quite handy now that we can't buy plastic plant pots.
 
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I dont understand why non essential plastics are still permitted. Take plastic plant pots. No reason they have to be plastic but they are almost universally practically indestructable and non- recyclable. Why not just ban them?
Profit is a massive motivator.

We can see this in denier arguments - the main argument appears to be that those advocating human made climate change are making loads of money out of it....
 
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Dave
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Because it wouldn't work. People and organisations who are the subject of regulations and bans are highly motivated to find ways round them, because their profits and potentially even their businesses are at risk. People who write the regulations aren't so highly motivated to get it exactly 100% right.

For example - There's this company which sells plastic buckets. They're practically indestructible and they come in colours like brown and green. They're not very good buckets, because they don't have handles and they have holes in the bottom, but - pssst, dont tell anyone - they can actually be used quite well to put plants in, which is quite handy now that we can't buy plastic plant pots.
Can't understand why it won't work, Stewart.

Taking Brian's example, if the Government banned the sale of plastic plant pots that cannot be recycled wouldn't the manufacturers have to find a way of producing pots that could be recycled?

The plastic used for bottled water can be recycled; why not make plastic plant pots out of the same material, they work well?

Am I missing something?

Dave
 
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Andy
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Can't understand why it won't work, Stewart.

Taking Brian's example, if the Government banned the sale of plastic plant pots that cannot be recycled wouldn't the manufacturers have to find a way of producing pots that could be recycled?

The plastic used for bottled water can be recycled; why not make plastic plant pots out of the same material, they work well?

Am I missing something?

Dave
The problem isn't just what can and can't be recycled though, it's whether they actually are or not. And what you consider to be recycled. But also the carbon cost of recycling.

We consider being burned in an energy generating incinerator to be recycled.

And various other methods of recycling may well output more Co2 than manufacturing from new would. We need to take a logical approach to it all. Which is sadly, a lot more complicated than just making a blanket rule for all items/industries.
 
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As I understand it, we were (still are?) sending plastic recycling to the Far East. As far as we are concerned, it is marked as recycled against our figures. Aren’t we doing well!

When it gets there it is being handled in countries that aren’t even set up to do their own recycling, let alone ours. So it is burnt, or shoved in a river, or stockpiled.
 

StewartR

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Taking Brian's example, if the Government banned the sale of plastic plant pots that cannot be recycled wouldn't the manufacturers have to find a way of producing pots that could be recycled?
Well, maybe, but it would be a lot easier to just sell "buckets" (with no handles and holes in the bottom) made out of the same non-recyclable material rather than re-engineer their production processes. And probably cheaper too, because if doing ti a different way were cheaper then they'd already be doing it.

In principle you could ban the production of anything made out of that non-recyclable material. I would expect the manufacturers to respond by make a very very slight change to the manufacturing process so that it's technically not quite the same material and therefore avoids the ban.

In principle you could ban the production of anything made out of any non-recyclable plastic. Of course you'd want to be very very very careful to check that there's not some obscure and tiny component of important medical devices, say, that's made out of non-recyclable plastic for good reason. That seems like a lot of risk for a politician to take on.

The bottom line is that the people who have to follow the rules are always more highly motivated than the people who write the rules.
 
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Robin
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Profit is a massive motivator.

We can see this in denier arguments - the main argument appears to be that those advocating human made climate change are making loads of money out of it....
.... You hit the nail on the head! Profit and profitability is the motivator and in fact whether we like it or not, it drives everything.

Sorry to be a prophet of doom (I am usually an optimist) but I don't see these problems getting solved anytime soon and efforts by the Extinction Rebellion folks is like a drop in the ocean.

It would probably take an almost total wipeout of human beings leaving a few to start again from scratch, assuming they had somehow forgotten about the god called Profit. Or it would take a world dictator to get everyone into shape - Where's someone like Mr Hitler when you need him? :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

Gremlin

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It would probably take an almost total wipeout of human beings leaving a few to start again from scratch, assuming they had somehow forgotten about the god called Profit.
You can bet that a few survivors would take control of world domination and make a profit out of what is left
 
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You can bet that a few survivors would take control of world domination and make a profit out of what is left
Of course they would, all the believers in anthropomorphic climate change having bravely elected to commit suicide to save the planet.
 
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Shouldn't they all be dealing with all of it?
of course - but they cant afford to, because we vote for governments who promise to underfund local authority's. The world can be brilliant or cheap, there are very few occasions it can be really good and inexpensive.
 
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You can bet that a few survivors would take control of world domination and make a profit out of what is left
.... It's a safe bet. 'Tis in human being's nature to compete and gain and that's irrespective of any financial gain. It only takes a few to develop it further that way.
 
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I watched a rather frightening report on the bbc news this morning from a chap in Iraq that’s extremely worried about the rubbish that’s getting into watercourses , .. what the answer is I don’t really know but I’m glad I’m at the top end of my days not starting off ..
 

sirch

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What I don't understand about plastics that can't currently be recycled is why we don't segregate and store them? They are going in landfill anyway, if they were segregated and say put on top of the landfill rather than mixed with everything else and buried, then when the oil price goes up in 20, 30, 40 years’ time or as technology improves it will be easy to recover the plastic and recycle.
 
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if they were segregated and say put on top of the landfill
I'm not sure how viable that would actually be Chris, with todays modern landfill sites.
A completed landfill is topped by several meters of earth and sealed with a meter or two of blue clay.
Plus you have a network of subterranean pipes taking off and processing the methane plus the leachate ( the toxic liquid that is produced when anything decomposes) wells.
To re-excavate all that would be very costly, not to mention the logistical nightmare of excavating and re running the network of Methane pipes.

don’t think there are enough landfill sites left.
There are dormant landfill sites that are a few years old, and just "topped off" for now, that will be re-licenced, when the operator / licence holder uses up their current ones.
Some landfill sites are still being expanded.
1/3 ( iirc) higher than the actual depth is now the norm.
So the dormant ones still have quite a bit of life left in them.
Also, the landfill sites ( not just the hole in the ground) cover many many acres, so as one cell fills another is being built, adjacent to it.
It'll be awhile yet before we run out of landfill space. no doubt it will happen on day, but certainly not in the foreseeable future.
Burners are obviously the way to go, but the rules and regs surrounding them are so tight, that licences to build and operate a burner is very expensive
and difficult to obtain. A lot of that of course is down to NIMBY's.

I don't fully understand the process, by any means, as its very technical, but modern burners feed the waste emissions back into the burner / processor so there is virtually nothing but steam hitting the atmosphere. and of course much of the energy is recovered to power the plant and probably put back into the grid, its something like
500 Kwh / ton of waste,.

Also a lot of waste is baled and sent abroad by the container load to fuel the burners on the continent, one company that I "service"
send most of it to Germany, to fuel their power stations ... Go figure ...
 
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Of course this recycling craze means that a great deal of evidence will be missing from the future archeological record. Has anyone even considered the damage this will do to future generations?

:tumbleweed:
 
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Of course this recycling craze means that a great deal of evidence will be missing from the future archeological record. Has anyone even considered the damage this will do to future generations?

:tumbleweed:
What bizarre logic.

So it's best not to try and avoid ecological disaster, so that future generations can see what idiots we were?
 

sirch

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I'm not sure how viable that would actually be Chris, with todays modern landfill sites.
A completed landfill is topped by several meters of earth and sealed with a meter or two of blue clay.
Plus you have a network of subterranean pipes taking off and processing the methane plus the leachate ( the toxic liquid that is produced when anything decomposes) wells.
To re-excavate all that would be very costly, not to mention the logistical nightmare of excavating and re running the network of Methane pipes.
Because it would cost too much. Simples.
You get the general public to do the segregation, we already do it for plastics but, for example black plastics are not recyclable because they get missed by the infrared separators at the recycling plant. So, you give people yet another box for non-recyclable plastics these go to the landfill site but are not put in the landfill, but bailed up and stacked, once the cap is on and some rehab is done an area could be set aside (screened, etc) to restack the bails.

It might well be cost neutral, landfilling it costs money and there would be a significant volume not going in the landfill, just being stored for a future date.
 
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Expense keeps on coming back as a factor, and I’d imagine, if we put money into it, that solutions could be found reasonably quickly (to recycling etc). However we are in the depths of an Austerity programme and budgets have been slashed at authorities that are responsible. When you combine that with the repeated mantra that cheap is best, it’s not a good recipe.
 
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Speaking personally, from what I've seen and know, from what I've seen.
for example black plastics are not recyclable because they get missed by the infrared separators
Many recycling plants, ( that I visit) the separating is done with the aid of a human.
Anything in a "black bag" either goes to landfill, or is compressed and baled for ( mostly) export.
but bailed up and stacked, once the cap is
Bales left out in the open, within a week ( or two) become infested with rats, chewing their way into the bales, searching for a food source and harbourage.
And obviously become contaminated with faeces and urine which may or may not contain the lethal weils virus, salmonella and all manner of good things.
And then of course over a period of time, the bales start to break down, and you get the afore mentioned highly toxic leachate sitting on soil, absorbing into the soil,
or running off down hill and ending up god knows where.


Once capped landfill sites are still very active places, with the "Gas boys" monitoring the methane and the environmentalists monitoring the leachate wells.
I have no idea how many baling plants there are, but just the one I visit produces 100-150 meter squared bales per day.
It would be impossible to
1) provide a safe working environment for the auxiliary staff
2) physically store this amount of product for even a year.

It might well be cost neutral, landfilling it costs money and there would be a significant volume not going in the landfill, just being stored for a future date.
Besides, do you honestly think if it was a viable cost saving option that it wouldn't have already be done / being done ?
 
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I'm pretty sure his comment about the archaeological record was made with his tongue firmly in his cheek.
Indeed but I should have remembered that the faithful seldom suffer from a sense of humour. :banghead:
 

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Wasn't there someone making a new type of tarmac out of recycled plastics/rubber?

https://resource.co/article/recycled-plastic-road-surface-trialled-enfield-council-12444

perfect; better roads and recycling :)
Did you read the article? Calling it a "recycled plastic road surface" is about as accurate as saying that a Big Mac is a vegetarian meal because it's got a little bit of lettuce in it. The new road surfacing material is 99.7% not recycled plastic, in the same way that a Big Mac is 99.7% not lettuce.

Still, the article says that the UK uses 20 million tons of asphalt per year, so even at 3-10kg of plastic per ton it might be significant. It would obviously be 60-200 million kg, which is 60-200 thousand tons. That sounds like quite a lot of plastic. But is it, really?

It's hard to get solid data on how much plastic we use in the UK, but as far as I can tell it seems to be around 4 million tons. So if we adopted the recycled plastic approach for every single bit of asphalt we produce, we would have found a home for somewhere between 1.5% and 5% of our plastic. Hmm. That does sound like it's significant. I think the people who invented this deserve their award.
 
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Surely, then, the solution is to build way more roads to use up more plastic!!!! :D:D:D
 
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Fraser White
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Surely, then, the solution is to build way more roads to use up more plastic!!!! :D:D:D
We could just leave the plastic outside in the sun? In a couple of years time it will melt under the increasing temps we are seeing. ;)

I thought the tarmac was a pretty good idea TBH.
 
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The proposed idea was to use it to build roads on the old disused railways and use them for freight to reduce congestion on existing roads.
Ah yes, that old chestnut from an extreme right wing focus group.
 
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We could just leave the plastic outside in the sun? In a couple of years time it will melt under the increasing temps we are seeing. ;)

I thought the tarmac was a pretty good idea TBH.
I was just applying the level of critical analysis that many of us have to put up with on here ;)
 
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