First time 4x4. Range Rover or Jag?

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Graham
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Interesting. I’m surprised the Jag dealer didn’t pick up on that if it’s a known fault (and presumably Jag and LR share results in fault finding?)
There's the real problem! (highlighted) Main dealers are mostly useless, some of the crap I've experienced from BMW, Honda, Ford etc is staggering - reflects very badly on the actual manufacturer which isn't always fair. A specialist indy is always the way forward. Not sure what the rules are in the UK when it comes to warranty work though.

Restricted performance is a good thing as I'm sure you know, it's protecting the car from going to higher revs. At 70mph it's only doing 1500rpm so it's not really all that restrictive but must have been annoying not being able to find the problem. I'm surprised a code didn't come up, the car is full the brim with sensors, but if it were an actual sensor which wasn't working I'm not quite sure how any car picks up on that?
 
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It seems to me that whilst FMEA is used in hardware manufacturing, it is not used as a quality management technique in embedded software production; and it's usually the software that lets down the premium cars, as they don't define sufficient failure modes and pathways to test. I see it increasingly in other software development, where once upon a time we would have to define all of the paths through code and create test data for all of them, but now, only about 20% at most of software paths are unit tested despite it being possible to automate far more if you invest in the right tools - current processes require an attitude of planning for failure rather than getting it right.
 
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One of the problems we had with our Discovery was a fault with the air suspension which was leaking. The 'diagnostics' said the compressor was running too long so it must be faulty, so the dealer replaced the compressor. That didn't cure the problem as it was a leaking airbag, eventually detected by listening to the hiss of air escaping while the vehicle was on a hoist. Fortunately this was a warranty repair so LR picked up the bill. Dealers rely too much on their computer diagnostics sometimes
 
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It seems to me that whilst FMEA is used in hardware manufacturing, it is not used as a quality management technique in embedded software production; and it's usually the software that lets down the premium cars, as they don't define sufficient failure modes and pathways to test. I see it increasingly in other software development, where once upon a time we would have to define all of the paths through code and create test data for all of them, but now, only about 20% at most of software paths are unit tested despite it being possible to automate far more if you invest in the right tools - current processes require an attitude of planning for failure rather than getting it right.
I'm guessing money and time is probably the determining factor as usual and as cars are becoming increasingly complex (and reliant) on software then it's certainly an area that needs to be sorted.

Perhaps another consideration is that you've got all these hardware modules which have their own software, but then you have the software which makes them all compatible with each other and I'm assuming when updates for module software are rolled out they also need to make sure they are all still all compatible?

I've seen some cases where this can cause real problems because changing the hardware won't work and flashing new software for the modules won't work, so this then becomes too complicated for the local technicians and it will require the specialists from the manufacturers, who I am assuming are in short supply and would be a time consuming problem to sort?
 
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One of the problems we had with our Discovery was a fault with the air suspension which was leaking. The 'diagnostics' said the compressor was running too long so it must be faulty, so the dealer replaced the compressor. That didn't cure the problem as it was a leaking airbag, eventually detected by listening to the hiss of air escaping while the vehicle was on a hoist. Fortunately this was a warranty repair so LR picked up the bill. Dealers rely too much on their computer diagnostics sometimes
Which model Disco was it, as apparently a leaking air suspension bag is a pretty uncommon fault with a Discovery 3 or 4?
 
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Which model Disco was it, as apparently a leaking air suspension bag is a pretty uncommon fault with a Discovery 3 or 4?
Discovery 2 Landmark, it was a 'traditional' Land Rover, left it's mark wherever it went. what fluids it had, it leaked somewhere........ A/C gas, air suspension, engine coolant, engine oil, gearbox oil, brake fluid....... I had it for 2 years and got rid of it just before the warranty expired. I loved it, just couldn't stand the uncertainty of not knowing when something else was going to go wrong with it.
 
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Discovery 2 Landmark, it was a 'traditional' Land Rover, left it's mark wherever it went. what fluids it had, it leaked somewhere........ A/C gas, air suspension, engine coolant, engine oil, gearbox oil, brake fluid....... I had it for 2 years and got rid of it just before the warranty expired. I loved it, just couldn't stand the uncertainty of not knowing when something else was going to go wrong with it.
Things certainly seem to have changed in that respect, LR vehicles no longer seem to want to mark their territory... to the extent that I've had to resort to buying moss killer to use on my tarmac drive since getting a Discovery 3. ;) :giggle:
 
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I was a bit of a Jaguar fan for a number of years. But the dealership service was usually appalling. Moved to BMW soon after that and preferred their cars and the dealers ranged from very good to excellent. When I needed a 4x4 for towing I had no hesitation to consider an X3. However, I literally walked into a Mazda dealer out of curiosity and bought a 2 year old CX5. Put winter tyres on it and it was outstanding in the snow and excellent for towing.

This year we wanted a change and I tried the Jaguar F pace and new BNW X3. The X 3 was a much nicer car to drive and had great tech. I was about to buy it when my wife suggested I keep the Mazda and by a Mercedes A250 as a second car!

My suggestion would be an X3 but thankfully we’re all different.
 
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We swapped a CX5 for an X1, then swapped the X1 for an X3 3.0D & bought a Mini Cooper S convertible as a 'fun' runabout as the X3 is a 'diesel' :exit:
 
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3 F-Paces in my street, one (67 reg) is forever having problems. The other two are both rep mobiles that do thousands of miles per week and never have an issue.
 
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3 F-Paces in my street, one (67 reg) is forever having problems. The other two are both rep mobiles that do thousands of miles per week and never have an issue.
"Problems" are funny things. I don't want to get too mystical and Twilight Zone-ish but maybe some problems with cars and other things are more people problems than thing problems?

I've always been pretty good with things and have had relatively few problems. Other people seem to have a problem with just about any thing they touch. This was most evident to me during the years I used to fix things. Some of the other guys and girls had horrendous stories to tell whereas most of the horror just passed me by.

North American Indians (can we still us that word... sorry for any offence if that isn't the correct term) believe that everything has a spirit, a manitou, a rock, a tree, a car too maybe... and you need to have a good relationship with these manitous and if you don't then they'll work against you rather than with you.

Or maybe there are still Monday morning and Friday afternoon cars.

:D
 
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This is my thinking also, I see friends flooring their stone cold engines, people flying over speed bumps, turning their turbocharged car off immediately after hard driving etc. What about servicing, is it being done properly, do they trust the main dealer to not con them?

Then when things go wrong they blame the car. And how good are the manufacturers at hiding things?

Granted I think there are many cars which have certain components that really shouldn't fail so early or so often. But sometimes it's worth the slight inconveniences and expense if it means avoiding a slow death and having a car which you enjoy instead. You only live once!
 
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I have had a good few 4x4's such as a LR series 3 short wheel base-Honda CRV- Isuzu citation- 3x Toyota land cruisers-Ranger Rover- Landrover freelander- Toyota 4Runner- Ford Explorer- 2x Lexus 300 SEL - Kia Sorrento and now Drive a Nissan Xtrail. Was going to buy a Bmw x5 but the dealer messed me about so much etc. All bar the series 3 bought from new
That is not including "ordinary cars" I have owned

First of all I would suggest avoiding any with air suspension,why? on one of the new land cruisers I had with air suspension problems was cornering. As the front wheels turn they "lean" into the corner causing excessive wear to the outside of the tyre, and at £500 a tyre and only about 20,000 miles, if that, it becomes expensive.

Talking to BMW X5 owners and other owners with different makes, whose vehicles have air suspension, this is a common problem
Having owned a lot of 4x4's I don't think you can beat one from Japan for reliability. German makes spares are extremely expensive I found out so avoided getting one.

it depends on what you want it for, power-economy-towing- rough ground etc

First of all the Toyota land Cruisers 4.2 cc and what beasts they are. More power than you ever want, really loved those. Your King of the road in one of those
Honda CRV the new one we bought was to say the least gutless, even going up hill had to drop several gears.
Isuzu Citation didn't get on with the rear door 1/3 -2/3 door set up
Freelander nice car but for the size a bit fuel hungry
Range Rover again a very nice car but terrible dealership let it down
Toyota 4 Runner basically a pick up with a covered in back with electric tail window, needed a heavy weight in the back as it was too light.
Ford Explorer 4ltr petrol very comfortable but the fuel gauge was in competition with the mileometer, both went the same speed downwards
Land rover series 3 diesel - smoke trail it left behind you could follow for miles, cheap used motor
the lexus , what a lovely 4x4 vehicle 3 ltr petrol and a fuel guzzler. First one hit and damaged after shoved into a deep ditch by an idiot skidding on ice.
KIa sorrento beware or obtaining parts , had to wait 3 months for a part shipped from Korea and 7 yr warranty worthless they don't honour it' cheap material used throughout

Now own the Nissan Xtrail Tekna Diesel owned for last 4 years. If it economy your after the 1.6 version I have returns exceptional MPG around the houses. Not as powerful as some others I have owned but being retired running costs are more important . I have added extra seats (now 7 seat)and towbar. I did notice the 0-60 not as quick as the Freelander for example but still good for engine size and suits us. This is the big brother to the qashqai . The build quality is in my opinion top class and the top of range like mine has more bits to play with on the dashboard than anything else I have driven, even down to 5, yes 5, extrnl cameras. the only thing it don't do is make the tea.
depends one what it is used for and do you need one? I love them due to higher ride and interior space they offer and I don't think you can beat any Japanese make. I have owned them for many years and never once has one of them broken down on me
 
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it depends on what you want it for, power-economy-towing- rough ground etc

depends one what it is used for and do you need one? I love them due to higher ride and interior space they offer and I don't think you can beat any Japanese make. I have owned them for many years and never once has one of them broken down on me
When I was a little boy I just loved cars and I suppose vehicles of all types. I used to go on any car or bus trip I could and I'd sit and watch the driver. I started learning to drive as soon as I was 17 and I bought my first car, a Mini 1000, before I passed my test. I passed first time of course :D My first new car was another Mini 1000. I especially loved small two seat sports cars and I got my first in my early 20's, a second hand MG Midget.

The most exciting car I've had was a Lotus Elise and the fastest across country was a Lotus Elan SE whilst the best overall mix of fun and practicality has been MX5's. The most disappointing car I've had was a Merc SLK (the roof kept jamming, the auto box tried to snap my neck every time I drove it, the paint fell off in flakes and the dealership were apathetic) and I suppose the Boxster was disappointment too as that car had to be really pushed to get any fun out of it at all and at 30/40mph really it just felt like a truck, oh and the dealership had to be treated like naughty children to get any sort of acceptable quality service. I suppose the Jag S was possibly the most surprising car I've ever had as it was just so lovely to drive but could be chucked about like a sports car. My spiritual home though has probably always been small British style open two seat cars and the MX5 counts as British style to me :D

As I just love cars and driving I fancied giving something different a go just to experience that something different so after trying various things from BMW, Merc, Audi, Rover and 4x4 Subarus I got a 4lts Jag S and I really liked that but after a few years I was missing the small sports car experience so I went for another MX5. I've also had the usual saloons and hatch backs as company cars and although I've never bought a hatch back I have one now as I inherited a Hyundai Gets from a family member who gave up driving.

I'm now thinking of an SUV style 4x4 as it's something I've never had. It'll be a new experience, that's all and as simple as that :D

It wont be driven off road as I do a bit of walking and I hate to see the countryside needlessly churned up by cars. It wont be towing anything and it wont be driven like a sports car as after years of being a bit of a hooligan I'm very responsible on the road these days. It probably wont be doing hyper millage like my Jag and company cars either. Actually my Lotus Elan probably took the most battering of any car I've owned as I did over 100K miles in that car. These days if I'm going any distance I usually go by train. In fact we're going to Newcastle on Saturday (45 or so miles away) and even though I used to go to the place we're going to years ago to fix their computers and have been there loads of times the thought of driving there didn't even cross my mind and I just automatically bought the train tickets.

I did like being driven around by my ex GF in her Lexus, ditto Mrs WW's Nisan X-Trail. So that's what I want. A different experience from something I've never owned before.
 
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Why not look at some of the up to date 4x4 from Toyota,Kia Etc you may well be surprised
 
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Why not look at some of the up to date 4x4 from Toyota,Kia Etc you may well be surprised
Because from being a kid Land Rover had a certain mystique and of course JLR as they are now are British... or sort of even if they're owned by an Indian company and make some of their cars in Austria and eastern Europe.

Yes I could go and buy a Lexus or a Toyota or a Nissan or even a Hyundai or Kia and it'd be perfectly reliable and sensible but it wouldn't satisfy that little voice in my head that's saying "You've never had a LR (or a JLR as Jag now make 4x4's.) Get one."
 
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I've owned LR vehicles for over 30 years now, from a couple of ex-army lightweight Series 3s (when I was young and daft!), followed by several classic RRs, then changing to a diesel Discovery (Series 1 & 3) when feeding a 17mpg V8 petrol engine got a bit pricey. In addition to the work capability of these vehicles, I like the elevated driving position and the safe view of the road that gives when following 'normal' cars... I can see over the top of them and 'drive' 3 or 4 cars ahead, so if some muppet brakes unexpectedly or runs into something I've seen it before the two cars in front of me have, thus giving me time to take avoiding action.

I found the Discovery 3 was a big leap forward in technology and design from the classic RR and previous Discovery models, it's much more car-like to drive and as quite and comfortable as a large luxury saloon. I've found it no more unreliable or prone to breaking down than any non LR vehicle I've driven or owned; and as I said above, consumable parts such as brake discs and pads and suspension bushes (they tend to fit a brand new arm rather than re-bush them these days due to labour costs to faff about pressing bushes out being more than the price of parts!) tend to be quite reasonably priced considering their size.

A large, heavy car (particularly one that handles quite well and is fairly quick for its size) may get through parts such as brake pads, discs, suspension bushes and tires at a faster rate than a 'normal' vehicle, depending on how it's driven; so that needs to be considered and weighed up against driving style, and the actual need for a large 4x4 that can legally tow 3.5 tonnes of trailer on the public highway and traverse a desert if necessary.

If you don't actually need class-leading off road ability and a car of that size and power, then you may find a cheaper and more cost-effective option. I have one because I need one for work. That's something else I've found about LR vehicles such as the RR and the Disco, they tend to scrub up well after they've been working, so they can soon look smart enough to look the part if you're going to a posh venue. Besides, as Clarkson once said when comparing the classic lines of the RR to the appearance of one of the foreign alternatives.. turn up to a posh shoot on a county estate in one of those, and the pheasants will die laughing at you. ;)
 
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Aye, buy what you need or buy what you want. I reckon Alan is currently in the latter category and quite right in my opinion. Enjoy driving whilst you still can.
 
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Because from being a kid Land Rover had a certain mystique and of course JLR as they are now are British... or sort of even if they're owned by an Indian company and make some of their cars in Austria and eastern Europe.

Yes I could go and buy a Lexus or a Toyota or a Nissan or even a Hyundai or Kia and it'd be perfectly reliable and sensible but it wouldn't satisfy that little voice in my head that's saying "You've never had a LR (or a JLR as Jag now make 4x4's.) Get one."
I can see where you are coming from; setting aside all the horror stories about shoddy dealers, poor reliability, depreciation, running costs etc etc if I were to let my heart rule my mind I would probably go for (in order):
1) Maserati Levante
2) Jaguar F-Pace
3) Land Rover Discovery Sport

I had a similar dilemma when I bought my Mini Cooper S convertible, what I really wanted was a Boxter, or an MX5, but I bought the Mini because it would enable us to take our 6 year old granddaughter out with us with the roof down; she loves my Mini, to see the joy on her little face confirms my decision to forego the Boxter/MX5.

Good luck with your quest......
 
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Aye, buy what you need or buy what you want. I reckon Alan is currently in the latter category and quite right in my opinion. Enjoy driving whilst you still can.
You're a long time dead, you can't take it with you, the one that dies with the most toys wins etc...

Plus we don't have children and those in our wider families seem to be doing ok. Sadly no one will miss me and Mrs WW and our money too much.
 
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You're a long time dead, you can't take it with you, the one that dies with the most toys wins etc...

Plus we don't have children and those in our wider families seem to be doing ok. Sadly no one will miss me and Mrs WW and our money too much.
If you've got a bit spare then you could always buy me a Canon 5D iv, and I'll promise to cry at your funeral? ;)
 
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I've just been thinking about money no issue buys and although I could probably afford to spend money on a frankly ridiculous car I just can't bring myself to as I do think that some things are just too ott to be morally justifiable to myself.

Also there's the hassle that some cars bring. Even in my relatively affordable and not really that ott Lotus Elan, Elise and Porsche Boxster the problems I had were time after time just, sickening and there were a lot of times when I honestly thought they just weren't worth bothering with. I've had verbal abuse, had people come up to me to tell me how sh!t my car is, had threats, been spat at, been blocked in when parked, been the subject of road rage and had vandalism. So there's that. So, I will never own anything that attracts waaaay too much envy and hate again. JLR products seem to be everywhere so hopefully they'll attract less hate envy.

Actually those abuse days did teach me how to use language effectively. Few people can win a battle of insults or one line put downs with me now :D
 
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Sadly there are some people in this world who are smitten by envy regardless of what you drive, especially anything new & shiny & will take any opportunity to vent their feelings against you & your property. We have been verbally abused for driving even modest 4x4s such as Mk1 Freelanders or Mazda CX5s.
 
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If you want to spend nearly all of the £50k then that gets you a Tesla Model 3 brand new in the longer range with AWD. The rear wheel drive base mode is a sniff under £40k.... longer range with AWD does 0-60 in 4.5 seconds. Base model is RWD and a tardy 5.6 seconds to 60.

If you want to actually off road then it's no good as they're not designed for that at all...
 

Nod

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How about hiring one for a week or 2? Much as I loved my S2a and 90 as well as the occasional use of Dad's Discovery (1), I wouldn't have one now - been there, done that, wear the tee shirt occasionally!

IF I was to be in the market for one, it would be an F-Pace, ideally the SVR V8 version but they start at £75k...
 
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Now that you mention it... That's a rather obvious idea that had passed me by :D but maybe someone would give me an extended road test for a weekend or so? I don't know if JLR do that sort of thing? but I have been offered all sorts in the past but never taken them up on it.
 
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IF I was to be in the market for one, it would be an F-Pace, ideally the SVR V8 version but they start at £75k...
Now we are talking! :D But alas I'm hearing it's quite difficult to get one any time soon.
 

Nod

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Now that you mention it... That's a rather obvious idea that had passed me by :D but maybe someone would give me an extended road test for a weekend or so? I don't know if JLR do that sort of thing? but I have been offered all sorts in the past but never taken them up on it.

IF you have a good dealer (and you may have a relationship with one, having had an S-Type in the past), they MIGHT let you have one for a weekend but probably not the firebreather V8! By all accounts the 2 litre Ingenium motor is pretty good but "there ain't no substitute for cubic inches"!
Must admit to rather fancying the idea of a V8 Sportbrake but they're like rocking horse pooh and likely to have been thrashed and/or crashed!
 
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There may still be two V8 Sportbrake's on AT, don't know about the red one but the white one is a member on one of the Jag forums and I would assume has been looked after. They certainly seem to attract a premium over the saloon though.

I'm hoping the new i6 3L petrol ingenium engine makes its way to the X260 sportbrake as by the time I'm ready to change again it will hopefully be a reasonable enough price.

If not then I guess I'll just have to settle for the x250 sportbrake 5L V8.....damn
 
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If a main dealer gets a sniff that you are seriously interested in buying I am sure they would lend you a car for the weekend.

If not you might be able to hire one? I see SIXT have various Range Rover & Jaguar SUVs for hire, they also have Maserati Levante to hire.

According to the SIXT website an F Pace rental starts at £49 a day ........
 
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If a main dealer gets a sniff that you are seriously interested in buying I am sure they would lend you a car for the weekend.

If not you might be able to hire one? I see SIXT have various Range Rover & Jaguar SUVs for hire, they also have Maserati Levante to hire.

According to the SIXT website an F Pace rental starts at £49 a day ........
I've thought about a longer test drive over a weekend or hiring but I only tend to move on things when I'm pretty sure and so far I haven't really made my mind up.

I added a Land Rover Sport to the short list and then I spotted that the new RR Evoque is out or coming out and a review I read mentioned an electric or hybrid to follow so I think I've made my mind up to wait a year or two and see what transpires. I think an electric or hybrid car might be nice so I think I'll put all this car gas on hold for a little while and see what happens and what non fossil fuel cars come out :D
 
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Jaguar have just teamed up with BMW so there could be some interesting things to come.
 
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I've thought about a longer test drive over a weekend or hiring but I only tend to move on things when I'm pretty sure and so far I haven't really made my mind up.

I added a Land Rover Sport to the short list and then I spotted that the new RR Evoque is out or coming out and a review I read mentioned an electric or hybrid to follow so I think I've made my mind up to wait a year or two and see what transpires. I think an electric or hybrid car might be nice so I think I'll put all this car gas on hold for a little while and see what happens and what non fossil fuel cars come out :D

Worth checking what sort of hybrid it is. The latest mild hybrids are worth a look I think, but the older plug in PHEVs aren’t really worth it IMO. You get a real world range of 15-20 miles on battery power alone from a PHEV; the rest of the time you’re lugging around an extra 200 + kgs of battery for no real advantage. In cold weather the 15-20 miles is likely to be even less if you turn on the heating or want to defrost the screen.
 
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All good points.

We don't do high mileage these days. We go to town and back and to the park, coast and supermarket etc but longer trips are few and far between. I'll probably give it a year or two and see what comes out but I'll certainly have to do more reading up.

I know this isn't the point of the thread but there was a bit on TV this morning about being carbon neutral by 2050 and using electric cars and busses more and this does annoy me as there's pretty much zero infrastructure for the cars and what there is may not be practical for use by large numbers of people and busses and other non door to destination and back alternatives just aren't a real world alternative or solution for so many people, IMO. The longer trip question is one that worries me too and TBH I can't see it being solved in the near future. In places like London maybe but in the real world in the north of England? I'm a bit sceptical and I'll believe that non carbon fueled cars are truly practical when I see it.
 
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All good points.

We don't do high mileage these days. We go to town and back and to the park, coast and supermarket etc but longer trips are few and far between. I'll probably give it a year or two and see what comes out but I'll certainly have to do more reading up.

I know this isn't the point of the thread but there was a bit on TV this morning about being carbon neutral by 2050 and using electric cars and busses more and this does annoy me as there's pretty much zero infrastructure for the cars and what there is may not be practical for use by large numbers of people and busses and other non door to destination and back alternatives just aren't a real world alternative or solution for so many people, IMO. The longer trip question is one that worries me too and TBH I can't see it being solved in the near future. In places like London maybe but in the real world in the north of England? I'm a bit sceptical and I'll believe that non carbon fueled cars are truly practical when I see it.
If you’ll be doing mostly short trips then avoid diesel, they need regular long runs to keep the DPF clear.

I assume if we’re going all electric in the future then there will have to be either infrastructure in place to recharge en route or a big increase in battery range.
 
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EVs are not ready for the masses, they are too expensive & the country lacks the infrastructure to charge them & there's probably not enough capacity in the National Grid to provide the power needed to charge them. Where is the money going to come from to fix these deficiencies? Meanwhile early EV adopters can feel 'comfortable' with their choice while the rest of us carry on with our ICE vehicles.
 
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I'll definitely not be getting a diesel. I've never owned one and I never willingly will.

There was an interesting piece on the BBC news channel about electric cars in India and one model had a battery pack which was swapped out when flat making a "recharge" at a swap out station just a couple of minutes. It just slid out and the new one slid in. Simples.

This seems such a simple solution that it's difficult to see why it hasn't been widely implemented as it would cure the issue of having a limited range after which the car needed to be parked to be charged for an extended period and make it much more like stopping to fill up with petrol. Perhaps it would make a lot of sense to have easily removable standard battery packs in a number of sizes to cover small, medium and large, power wise.

Sadly we in the UK have pulled our usual master stroke in allowing all indigenous car companies to either die or pass into foreign ownership and haven't encouraged any significant scale newcomers and have no real stake in any manufacturer and therefore have no real influence over development. IMO the UK should have bent over backwards to get Dyson to build their cars here. The move away from petrol and diesel represents a real opportunity to build a new industry and the gov has said it wants the UK to be at the forefront but I see no real chance of that if we have no real influence or interest in manufacture. All we can do is pass sound bite legislation that seems ahead of any tech or infrastructure.

It's an opportunity to build an industry and provide quality jobs that looks to be rapidly slipping away from the UK. IMO.
 
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Alan
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EVs are not ready for the masses, they are too expensive & the country lacks the infrastructure to charge them & there's probably not enough capacity in the National Grid to provide the power needed to charge them. Where is the money going to come from to fix these deficiencies? Meanwhile early EV adopters can feel 'comfortable' with their choice while the rest of us carry on with our ICE vehicles.
Yup.

As I said in another thread, if some of the more extreme environmental campaigners saw what they're calling for actually implemented they'd probably be on the streets rioting PDQ. Either that or on the next flight to France.
 
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