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  1. cambsno

    cambsno

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    I cannot believe our legal system supports this! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45004290

    So basically, if you get accused of a crime but found not guilty, it could still count against you in your life and work? Crazy!!! If you are found innocent then why should you possibly not be able to pursue the career you want!
     
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  2. Mr Bump

    Mr Bump

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    more to it than that, the suspect was a teacher and as such required an enhanced CRB check and on that all matters that may preclude suitability are declared.
    I think if children of mine were being taught by him I would like to know he was accused of rape even if he was proven not guilty.
     
  3. jonneymendoza

    jonneymendoza

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    And if wasn't guilty would you still want your children to be taught by that person?
     
  4. hashcake

    hashcake

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    The article implies that he already had a criminal record before the trial.
     
  5. Tringa

    Tringa

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    I found it confusing.

    I can see the Court's point that the certificate clearly showed he was found not guilty. However, as the certificate is called the Enhanced Criminal Record Certificate, it would appear to be a record of his criminal record, so why would it record a case that resulted him in being found not guilty.

    But the article includes, "But the Supreme Court said the case raises "more general concerns", and "careful thought" needs to be given when disclosing allegations in cases where the person has later been acquitted.".

    Dave
     
  6. Tigger.ufo

    Tigger.ufo

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    Where did you see that? I can't see anything that implies that.
     
  7. hashcake

    hashcake

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    'A man acquitted of rape has lost his Supreme Court appeal to remove any reference to the case from his enhanced criminal records check.'

    If he didn't have a criminal record before the case surely his criminal record would be clean when he won the case?
    So to me it implies he had previous criminal record.
     
  8. cambsno

    cambsno

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    Why? If he is not guilty why should he be punished. Unfortunately, many sex crimes are hard to prove, if not impossible! There are a number of cases where people have been found not guilty, should they be tarnished for the rest of their lives?
     
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  9. cambsno

    cambsno

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    I think that's the point. Because he was prosecuted that stays on record... no smoke without fire brigade and the paranoia brigade!!!
     
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  10. ecoleman

    ecoleman

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    It’s not, that’s the point

    I’m not sure how you’ve assumed he has a previous record
     
  11. Cobra

    Cobra W Staff Member

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    as the certificate is called the Enhanced Criminal Record Certificate,


    I agree with both, I take the above statement to mean that it was a certificate, following an in depth search, not just a cursory glance.
     
  12. Tigger.ufo

    Tigger.ufo

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    @hashcake This ^
     
  13. neil_g

    neil_g

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    You know malicious false accusations of rape are apparently a thing now.

    Accusations do not equal doing anything wrong.
     
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  14. Peter B

    Peter B

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    Enhanced DBS check
    Enhanced DBS checks are for positions involving certain activities such as teaching children or treating adults and can also be obtained for certain other professions (for example, judicial appointments, RSPCA officers). An enhanced check may only be applied for if the applicant's job role is specified in both the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exception) order 1975 and the Police Act 1997.[14]

    In addition to the information provided on a Standard certificate, the Enhanced certificate involves an additional check with the police,[15] who check if any other information is held on file that may be relevant (for instance, information that has not led to a criminal conviction but may indicate a danger to vulnerable groups). The police decide what (if any) additional information will be added to the certificate using the Quality Assurance Framework.[16]

    The involvement of local police forces can mean an enhanced check may take significantly longer than a standard check to be completed.[original research?]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disclosure_and_Barring_Service
     
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  15. hashcake

    hashcake

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    I misread it, 'enhanced criminal records check' not criminal record.
     
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  16. LongLensPhotography

    LongLensPhotography

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    I am surprised that at least in practices most of the false / revenge accusers walk away without any consequences whilst bare minimum tarnishing the reputation and causing incredible financial burden on the accused. It should be a two edged sword.
     
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  17. andy700

    andy700

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    I have always said, that someone who has been proven of deliberately trying to falsely get someone accused of a crime, should be tried and prosecuted and be forced to serve the MAXIMUM sentence which would have been applied to the falsely accused.
     
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  18. Mr Bump

    Mr Bump

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    its not guilt or innocence it is suitability.
     
  19. Tigger.ufo

    Tigger.ufo

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    What do you define as "suitability" then? Do you know everything that no one else does about this case?
     
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  20. Mr Bump

    Mr Bump

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    No not really but without going into details I work in a very high security field where from day 1 of an accusation like that I would be seriously on the spot, I would be removed from my role and be unable to w work. once I was (hopefully) cleared my suitability to work in my field would be reassessed
     
  21. Tigger.ufo

    Tigger.ufo

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    So, if you wanted to change jobs and your aquittal meant that you didn't get offered employment because it showed up on your ECRC that would be ok then?
     
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  22. Mr Bump

    Mr Bump

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    If you are working in a sector that requires such a check then it will always show up, I think you are missing the point of these checks and working in these areas. Its not black and white, my sector looks at many more circumstances that might not make you a person to not employ but might make you unsuitable. such as high levels of debt, in a relationship with someone who is an issue (dependancey user or who has criminal convictions).
     
  23. ecoleman

    ecoleman

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    So if you're accused of rape (even though you are innocent) are you suddenly less suitable for your job?
     
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  24. Mr Bump

    Mr Bump

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    that's not the question here, the question here is certain roles and jobs require absolute trust and as the report said the police thought it was relevant to include the information for the employer to consider.
     
  25. ecoleman

    ecoleman

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    But isn't that the problem? Why should this person be trusted any less than say you or me. He was accused of rape but found not guilty by a judge.

    If somebody out of the blue suddenly accused you of raping them, were found innocent but then lost your long standing job because you were deemed untrustworthy or "unsuitable" for the role, you'd be pretty p***ed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
  26. jakeblu

    jakeblu

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    Because it is usually almost impossible to determine whether the accusations are false or simply not enough evidence to prove them. When it is clear accusations are false it almost always results in a prison sentence
     
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  27. jakeblu

    jakeblu

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    Those situations are not being discussed, this is someone found not guilty and yet the accusation still shows up on ECRC. You've still not answered Heathers question, if your accused of a crime, found not guilty but lose your job and are unable to get another because of the accusations, thats ok?
     
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  28. Mr Bump

    Mr Bump

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    I'm neither interested in answering heathers question or even suitable, I simply offered what I feel is a reasonable explanation for what has been presented.

    In many fields of work there is a grey area in between black and white that needs consideration. Social care, government security etc.
    Some aspects of a persons history make them unsuitable for work in certain sectors.

    To answer your question though , yes I absolutely feel it is OK.
     
  29. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Joe

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    But you don't get to see it. It's for potential employers.


    Steve.
     
  30. Mr Bump

    Mr Bump

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    Yes that is correct, however in Scotland I do believe you do.
    At least I get to see my DBS certificate which forms a part of my clearance.
     
  31. cambsno

    cambsno

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    But if you are innocent how is that fair, or correct? Surely if that was me, I am no more a risk to anyone than you or anyone else on here with a clean record.
     
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  32. Mr Bump

    Mr Bump

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    I never said it was fair but some work situations need to transcend conventional black and white boundaries to gain a deeper understanding of the character of a person.
     
  33. andy700

    andy700

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    Psychic powers, seance, ouija board, shamanism maybe, or possibly the good old - "he don't look right, he must be a wrong 'un".
     
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  34. ecoleman

    ecoleman

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    An understanding of the character of a person? Even if the report is portraying the wrong character?
    Sorry but this is just wrong in every way!
     
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  35. cymruchris

    cymruchris

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    So I'm walking along the street - and someone points the finger at me - "It was him officer" - I get arrested - interviewed - am in the wrong place at the wrong time - not responsible - but happen to look like the 'attempted rape' attacker - sent to trial - identified as not the person - found not guilty - then can't get certain jobs because of it? That's plainly wrong - as plain as the nose on everyone's face.
     
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  36. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Joe

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    Yes. You get to see your own, but not other people's, unless you are looking to employ them and requested the check.


    Steve.
     
  37. cambsno

    cambsno

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    You mean people who are wrongly accused of something??? You mean that someone who has been accused of something and found not guilty has a 'lesser' or more immoral character than someone who has not been in court?

    You belong on Mumsnet!
     
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  38. cambsno

    cambsno

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    Not to mention making a complete mockery of being innocent until proven guilty. Surely this is one area where the Human Rights Act should show some value? If I was that person surely my Human rights are being affected?
     
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  39. sirch

    sirch Official Forum Numpty 2015

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    One of the things that has been criticised in past cases is that some serious offenders had had multiple reports to the police, arrests, etc. but had never actually been convicted and so could carry on working with children, moving from job-to-job without the information being shared. Surely we can expect that prospective employers are intelligent enough to know that a one-off false accusation that has been found not guilty can safely be ignored. If however someone has had 10 such cases dismissed then there may be cause for concern. Having not guilty on a DBS check is exactly that and anyone with half a brain can see what it means.
     
  40. LongLensPhotography

    LongLensPhotography

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    I also fear that anyone with half brain would make a very clear decision between two almost identical candidates, except one charged with serious crime but acquitted. Can you 100% say it doesn't go through their mind that there is a chance, maybe a slim one the charges were dropped on a technicality. Psychologically you would go for the candidate with a "clean sheet". Every single time. So thats a big deal
     
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