I Daniel Blake

KitsuneAndy said:
It really is appalling. In the case of my stepdad, he had a report from his neurologist saying that he was unfit for work. His short term memory and some motor functions were damaged as a result of an infection in a shunt that he'd had to have put in to relieve a build up of pressure on the brain.

But apparantly ATOS new better.
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I'm very sorry to hear of your stepdads treatment at the hands of Atos.

Atos are one of four private companies who assess people's fitness for work and who are applying for employment and support allowance (ESA) which is the old sickness benefit. They are also responsible for assessing people for personal independence payment (PIP) which is replacing the old disability living allowance (DLA)

Sadly your stepdads treatment is echoed up and down the country. It just doesn't get reported enough. I think that the majority of the population who are fortunate enough to not need assistance are oblivious to the problem. Only when they become ill or disabled will they realise that the help and support they require will necessitate jumping through hoops and proving they are genuine. GPs and consultants opinions are overruled by the DWP. The health care professional completes the assessment but the ultimate decision rests with the "decision maker" at the DWP. Who by the way are not medical professionals.
 
Maggie52 said:
They are also responsible for assessing people for personal independence payment (PIP) which is replacing the old disability living allowance (DLA)
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We've recently had to complete a fairly lengthy questionnaire/application form for a young man who's just turned 16 & was in receipt of DLA. Hopefully the conversion over to PIP will be smooth..... but I'm not holding my breath! :rolleyes:
 
OldCarlos said:
We've recently had to complete a fairly lengthy questionnaire/application form for a young man who's just turned 16 & was in receipt of DLA. Hopefully the conversion over to PIP will be smooth..... but I'm not holding my breath! :rolleyes:
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The questionnaire is very comprehensive and complicated. There are several organisations available online who advise and even assist in the completion of these forms. Many people are disadvantaged simply because they misinterpret and misunderstand the questionnaire. It's also important to understand what actions you can take if you are denied an award and you feel you meet the descriptors.
 
Maggie52 said:
I'm very sorry to hear of your stepdads treatment at the hands of Atos.

Atos are one of four private companies who assess people's fitness for work and who are applying for employment and support allowance (ESA) which is the old sickness benefit. They are also responsible for assessing people for personal independence payment (PIP) which is replacing the old disability living allowance (DLA)

Sadly your stepdads treatment is echoed up and down the country. It just doesn't get reported enough. I think that the majority of the population who are fortunate enough to not need assistance are oblivious to the problem. Only when they become ill or disabled will they realise that the help and support they require will necessitate jumping through hoops and proving they are genuine. GPs and consultants opinions are overruled by the DWP. The health care professional completes the assessment but the ultimate decision rests with the "decision maker" at the DWP. Who by the way are not medical professionals.
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My mum took them to court after the fact and won a backpayment for everything he was due. Then donated everything the court awarded her to the Northern Brainwave charity, who'd done an amazing job helping with his rehab.
 
Maggie52 said:
The questionnaire is very comprehensive and complicated. There are several organisations available online who advise and even assist in the completion of these forms. Many people are disadvantaged simply because they misinterpret and misunderstand the questionnaire. It's also important to understand what actions you can take if you are denied an award and you feel you meet the descriptors.
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It is quite long winded & in depth, that's for sure. (no doubt to dissuade applicants :( )
Luckily we have become fairly used to completing similar forms over the years & have access to all the young persons relevant `proof` they wanted + he at least has a social worker who can verify his life long conditions. Hopefully he won't have any major issues with his claim though.

Cheers Maggie.
 
OldCarlos said:
It is a relief tbh. After all the negative publicity we were at least expecting to have to appeal on his behalf, but all is well. :cool:
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I really fear for the future of people who are sick, disabled or vulnerable in any way. These assessments shouldn't be a lottery or an exercise in how to fill a questionnaire out. Genuine claimants are being let down on a huge scale.
 
My wife was born with a congenital heart condition called Transposition of the Great Vessels. She never claimed DLA until she was roughly 27 as she felt other people were worse off than her and she stayed away from it. She was one of the people who were awarded the payment for life as stated and not as most people are awarded indefinitely yet she was called in for her assessment to be switched to PIP last October and given 0 points for her condition. She was seen by a nurse who never asked her to do anything apart from getting onto a bed and asked her questions. Despite her Cardiologist and GP writing letters supporting her and the letters from the DWP explaining why she was awarded the payment for life she was stripped of her car and as a result we also lost the disability element of her working tax credits. On top of this we HAD to buy another car as she can't walk any distance or use public transport. The whole episode has left a very sour taste in my mouth and she only just got her court date in for June 12th so fingers crossed she will be re-instated.

I know full well her appearance counts against her as outwardly she looks fine until there she has to move. You'd think a nurse would know someone can't fabricate a serious heart condition. She has been told she has leaks in valves which will need replaced and they are actually treating her rather than the scans so are waiting on her telling them she needs the operation which has caused friction between us as i know she's exhausted all the time but she won't submit herself for surgery because she's either scared or doesn't want my five year old to be scared.
 
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scottduffy said:
My wife was born with a congenital heart condition called Transposition of the Great Vessels. She never claimed DLA until she was roughly 27 as she felt other people were worse off than her and she stayed away from it. She was one of the people who were awarded the payment for life as stated and not as most people are awarded indefinitely yet she was called in for her assessment to be switched to PIP last October and given 0 points for her condition. She was seen by a nurse who never asked her to do anything apart from getting onto a bed and asked her questions. Despite her Cardiologist and GP writing letters supporting her and the letters from the DWP explaining why she was awarded the payment for life she was stripped of her car and as a result we also lost the disability element of her working tax credits. On top of this we HAD to buy another car as she can't walk any distance or use public transport. The whole episode has left a very sour taste in my mouth and she only just got her court date in for June 12th so fingers crossed she will be re-instated.

I know full well her appearance counts against her as outwardly she looks fine until there she has to move. You'd think a nurse would know someone can't fabricate a serious heart condition. She has been told she has leaks in valves which will need replaced and they are actually treating her rather than the scans so are waiting on her telling them she needs the operation which has caused friction between us as i know she's exhausted all the time but she won't submit herself for surgery because she's either scared or doesn't want my five year old to be scared.
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I'm sorry you are both having to go through this torment, sadly your wife is just one of the many who are being treated this way.

Yes, you would hope the assessor would have some understanding and knowledge of the claimants condition otherwise how can they make an informed opinion.

The only suggestion I can make is to be aware that it is not the condition itself that gives you the points, it is how that condition/conditions affect you. That is paramount, she needs to be emphasising the impact the condition has on her daily living. It is often suggested to claimants to make a "day in the life of" diary over a couple of weeks or so. Making a note of how you are first thing in the morning, what sort of night you had, what assistance you needed to complete any tasks etc.

There is help out there giving guidance on this. A well respected website run by retired welfare rights workers give some great advice on how to prepare yourself for these situations. www.benefitsandwork.co.uk I think this correct but you should easily be able to find it.

Good luck with your appeal:)
 
Maggie52 said:
There is help out there giving guidance on this. A well respected website run by retired welfare rights workers give some great advice on how to prepare yourself for these situations. www.benefitsandwork.co.uk I think this correct but you should easily be able to find it.
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This is the correct website and has a wealth of good information and advice
 
OK I am going to put my head above the parapet

When I split with my wife back in 2014 I had to claim benefits again, I have physical as well as mental health problems

It was not that hard to do at the time because when my wife went back to work, after the birth of my daughter, my ESA claim was kept open and I just wasn't paid anything, my DLA never stopped as it is not means tested.

However when I Had my total mental melt down last year I told them where to stuff their benefits and they duly stopped them, stupid I know but I wasn't in my right mind literally.

Anyway roll on to this year and I am in a slightly better place and have started the process of claiming benefits again.

When I spoke to the DLA people about re-claiming I was pleasantly surprised how helpful and understanding the woman was who I talked to, in short they decided there and then that my claim would just be re-instated without the need for going through the whole application process

However trying to claim ESA again was the entire opposite, it has been an absolute nightmare, the people I spoke to, both in person and on the phone, treated me like I was some kind of leach or smelly stuff on their shoe - It left me feeling degraded and worthless.

I applied for ESA at the beginning of the year, I am still waiting to hear about my claim and the stress of it all is having an affect on my health and to be honest I am struggling

Anyway I am sorry for off loading on you guys
 
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I feel so sorry for the genuine cases, but the real people to blame are not the asssessors, who are just carrying out an objective assessment. It does not matter what their subjective views are.
The people to blame are the cheats, the scroungers, the leaches. Now put yourself in their shoes and try to weed out the differences. It's hard, very hard.

'A friend' works in a medical environment where most of his patients bend the truth or lie, how does he spot the honest sick ones, it's tough, very very tough. Benefits are the same.
 
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Keith W said:
OK I am going to put my head above the parapet

When I split with my wife back in 2014 I had to claim benefits again, I have physical as well as mental health problems

It was not that hard to do at the time because when my wife went back to work, after the birth of my daughter, my ESA claim was kept open and I just wasn't paid anything, my DLA never stopped as it is not means tested.

However when I Had my total mental melt down last year I told them where to stuff their benefits and they duly stopped them, stupid I know but I wasn't in my right mind literally.

Anyway roll on to this year and I am in a slightly better place and have started the process of claiming benefits again.

When I spoke to the DLA people about re-claiming I was pleasantly surprised how helpful and understanding the woman was who I talked to, in short they decided there and then that my claim would just be re-instated without the need for going through the whole application process

However trying to claim ESA again was the entire opposite, it has been an absolute nightmare, the people I spoke to, both in person and on the phone, treated me like I was some kind of leach or smelly stuff on their shoe - It left me feeling degraded and worthless.

I applied for ESA at the beginning of the year, I am still waiting to hear about my claim and the stress of it all is having an affect on my health and to be honest I am struggling

Anyway I am sorry for off loading on you guys
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I'm really sorry to hear you're struggling Keith, I hope things begin to improve soon.

It would appear that luck plays a large part when dealing with the DWP with regards benefits. Good to hear your DLA application went smoothly and you were fortunate to speak to an understanding employee. Your ESA application the opposite. This highlights the reason I say luck plays an important part. This is seriously wrong, all applicants should be dealt with by helpful and non judgmental staff, there is no need for rudeness.

My only advice is to not discuss anything with them on the phone and conduct all correspondence in writing. I think Benefits and Work would give this advice too.

I've read many cases of people who like you have been left feeling upset, degraded and worthless after having spoken with DWP on the phone. It shouldn't be like this but sadly it is. I'm sure there are many DWP staff who are kind and considerate and doing the best they can for the applicants, but sadly there are some not so nice.

Good luck with your application, make use of B&W and their guides. I wish you well:)
 
andyscott said:
I feel so sorry for the genuine cases, but the real people to blame are not the asssessors, who are just carrying out an objective assessment. It does not matter what their subjective views are.
The people to blame are the cheats, the scroungers, the leaches. Now put yourself in their shoes and try to weed out the differences. It's hard, very hard.

'A friend' works in a medical environment where most of his patients bend the truth or lie, how does he spot the honest sick ones, it's tough, very very tough. Benefits are the same.
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I'm not sure I am 100% with you on your opinion of the assessors. I'm sure there are many good assessors doing a good job but from the amount of claimants taking their cases to tribunal and winning would suggest they are not doing a good job.
Reports and assessments from the clients own GP and consultants are often ignored. Where there is any discrepancy with the application and the clients presentation, then further evidence ought to be sought via GP etc. This is very rarely the case.

I do not agree that a health care professional who has no prior knowledge of the client can make an informed decision based on a short assessment. This is particularly relevant to clients with mental health issues. You can not in any way make a fair judgement of someone's mental health in the space thirty minutes or so. I have over thirty years of mental health nursing experience and I could certainly not make an informed decision. How on earth can someone who has not specialised in mental health such as a physio, paramedic, or occupational therapist etc do so? These decisions are having a huge impact on people's lives. Personally, I could never work as an assessor, my conscience wouldn't allow it.

There are people who are not genuine, I think we all know that and yes they do pee me off. Fraud will always be a problem with a system like welfare benefits, though DWPs own figures put this at 0.7% I don't know if this is accurate but that is their figures. They are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and genuine people are being penalised for it, and it's costing lives.

You ask how do you spot the honest and genuine cases? This shouldn't be too difficult in this situation as applicants who are applying for these benefits are expected to send supporting evidence ie GP notes, consultants letters, etc. etc.

I'm off my soap box now :dummy:

Have a good weekend everyone. :wave:
 
Maggie52 said:
I'm not sure I am 100% with you on your opinion of the assessors. I'm sure there are many good assessors doing a good job but from the amount of claimants taking their cases to tribunal and winning would suggest they are not doing a good job.
Reports and assessments from the clients own GP and consultants are often ignored. Where there is any discrepancy with the application and the clients presentation, then further evidence ought to be sought via GP etc. This is very rarely the case.

I do not agree that a health care professional who has no prior knowledge of the client can make an informed decision based on a short assessment. This is particularly relevant to clients with mental health issues. You can not in any way make a fair judgement of someone's mental health in the space thirty minutes or so. I have over thirty years of mental health nursing experience and I could certainly not make an informed decision. How on earth can someone who has not specialised in mental health such as a physio, paramedic, or occupational therapist etc do so? These decisions are having a huge impact on people's lives. Personally, I could never work as an assessor, my conscience wouldn't allow it.

There are people who are not genuine, I think we all know that and yes they do pee me off. Fraud will always be a problem with a system like welfare benefits, though DWPs own figures put this at 0.7% I don't know if this is accurate but that is their figures. They are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and genuine people are being penalised for it, and it's costing lives.

You ask how do you spot the honest and genuine cases? This shouldn't be too difficult in this situation as applicants who are applying for these benefits are expected to send supporting evidence ie GP notes, consultants letters, etc. etc.

I'm off my soap box now :dummy:

Have a good weekend everyone. :wave:
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Interesting

How many are going to tribunal? As a percentage of those assessed, and of those at tribunal, how many succeed? Actual numbers? Or just someone reported in a 5 min news snippet.

30mins? They are not making a diagnosis, they are making an assessment based on the criteria set by someone else. You don't think I could do a mental health assessment to release someone from s136 detention having no prior knowledge of the patient? Of course I can.

Most common mental health issues actually improve with regular employment.

The assessor do not set the criteria, it's not up for subjective assessment, it must be objective.

How can a GP advised on work based assessments, how long have they spent with the patient, 8 mins is the appointment time in most practices.

Also the assessment is based on all work, so people with many mental health issues can work. Can a pilot with suicidal thoughts work as a pilot no, can they work in a different job yes, so in my money they should not get sickness benefit.

7% are those that have been found to be fraudulent, that doesn't account for the malingerers that the system has told to get back to work.

You can claim if you are too fat to work!!! Really? Oh yes, that should never be allowed.
 
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Keith W said:
Anyway I am sorry for off loading on you guys
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Nothing to apologise for at all, Keith. Like they say, it's good to talk.
Playing the waiting game/not knowing is often the worst part & actually not helpful to personal wellbeing, but hopefully all will come good for you. (y)
 
andyscott said:
how long have they spent with the patient, 8 mins is the appointment time in most practices.
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TBH, anyone with a debilitating condition will have probably seen their own GP numerous times + any referrals to specialists.
 
andyscott said:
Interesting

How many are going to tribunal? As a percentage of those assessed, and of those at tribunal, how many succeed? Actual numbers? Or just someone reported in a 5 min news snippet.

30mins? They are not making a diagnosis, they are making an assessment based on the criteria set by someone else. You don't think I could do a mental health assessment to release someone from s136 detention having no prior knowledge of the patient? Of course I can.

Most common mental health issues actually improve with regular employment.

The assessor do not set the criteria, it's not up for subjective assessment, it must be objective.

How can a GP advised on work based assessments, how long have they spent with the patient, 8 mins is the appointment time in most practices.

Also the assessment is based on all work, so people with many mental health issues can work. Can a pilot with suicidal thoughts work as a pilot no, can they work in a different job yes, so in my money they should not get sickness benefit.

7% are those that have been found to be fraudulent, that doesn't account for the malingerers that the system has told to get back to work.

You can claim if you are too fat to work!!! Really? Oh yes, that should never be allowed.
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I'm not very good at attaching links so hope these works ok.

https://www.actionforme.org.uk/news/​latest-esa-statistics-show-success-rate-on-appeal/

http://www.independentliving.co.uk/advice/pip-esa-appeals/

http://www.disabilitynewsservice.co...sideration-show-it-is-just-a-delaying-tactic/

No they are not making a diagnosis, they are assessing someone for either fitness to work or in the case of PIP, whether there disability is significant enough to warrant financial assistance. You can not convince me that the assessor is more knowledgeable about the clients condition than the clients own GP or consultant. In the end it is not the health care professional who ultimately makes the decision anyway, it is the "decision maker" at the DWP who is not a medical professional.

You may well be able to make a a mental health assessment on a S136 I don't know, but I wouldn't take your opinion on a persons mental health condition over a fully qualified mental health professional. Isn't that why someone who is placed on a S136 is taken to a hospital for further assessment? I must add that I am now retired and have been for a few years but this is how it was back in my day.

I've no doubt that some mental health conditions do improve with regular employment, but that is certainly not always the case.

The DWPs figures for fraud were 0.7%.

I'm not sure how to respond to your point regarding being "too fat to work" Sounds like a Daily Mail headline to me and too judgmental. Who knows why they are like they are. Where do you draw the line?

I don't want to get into a heavy discussion on here about the rights and wrongs of welfare policies and mental ill health. I don't think it's useful when clearly some people are struggling with issues, they need support and understanding and not feel they are being judged.
 
AndyScott I have to respectfully disagree mate. The woman who assessed my wife never asked her about her day, what she struggled with etc etc. She asked her to climb onto a bed and then bent her legs up and down when that's got nothing to do with her problems. I think some of these people are more than happy to knock people back and I would love to know if they have an incentive to do so. The welfare rights people who are helping kerry have told her this but I'd rather see proof before I believe it.
 
So around 730,000 claim. 11500 appeal, of those appeals roughly 6000 are successful.

So actually the assessor are getting it wrong 0.8% of the time?

99.2% accuracy is not bad, obviously figures taken from different sources including DWP so it is not perfect.

You see when you discuss a topic like this you are quickly penned into for or against, and that is not true.

There are people claiming who shouldn't, the 48% or so who lose on appeal or tribunal. There are also those who should get more and don't, because the system is complicated and they get lost for instance.

Those most in need should get more, those least in need (not want) should get a lot less. This does not seem to be the case.


As a side note all section 12 approved staff are usually classed as a professional with some small degree of mental health awareness ;)
 
scottduffy said:
AndyScott I have to respectfully disagree mate. The woman who assessed my wife never asked her about her day, what she struggled with etc etc. She asked her to climb onto a bed and then bent her legs up and down when that's got nothing to do with her problems. I think some of these people are more than happy to knock people back and I would love to know if they have an incentive to do so. The welfare rights people who are helping kerry have told her this but I'd rather see proof before I believe it.
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That's not the assessors fault, that's the systems fault, they only assess within the scope they have been set out.

I agree the system of assessment is not ideal, far from it, but it's not the individual assessors fault.
 
Following rules though that are clearly put in place to cut disabled people's benefits is wrong so once again I say it is the fault of the assessor who could choose not to do that. I was sacked twice from my previous employment for refusing to sit back and follow scandalous rules and won my job back twice and managed to highlight it. I think too much of humanity to remove someone's benefits after putting them through some half arsed assessment. Maybe these nurses should take note.
 
scottduffy said:
Following rules though that are clearly put in place to cut disabled people's benefits is wrong so once again I say it is the fault of the assessor who could choose not to do that. I was sacked twice from my previous employment for refusing to sit back and follow scandalous rules and won my job back twice and managed to highlight it. I think too much of humanity to remove someone's benefits after putting them through some half arsed assessment. Maybe these nurses should take note.
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Easier said than done, if you are the main bread winner, going in and telling your hubby/wife there will be no money at the end of the month as you have been sacked, oh and can I have a couple of K for a tribunal. Not that easy on 25-30k, with one wage and kids to feed.

Rules are rules though and the assessor is not there to give a subjective assessment, they are there to give an objective assessment based on criteria set out. Blame the people designing the assessment.

I cant prescribe medication that my trust will no pay for, even though I think its better. Should I wrap in and leave? Go without, no not a chance.
 
I earned less than that with a wife and son and I did it. It's a matter of principles mate but my main gripe is that most nurses probably became health care workers to help people so to shaft them for their own gain really gets my goat. Rules may well be different down south but my union covered my fees even though I never got to tribunal as local councillors awarded me my job back twice on hearing the evidence. I was working on the Monday after being sacked on the Friday too so no need to go hungry. I've no gripe with you mate I just think morals are more important than following rules that make no sense.
 
scottduffy said:
I earned less than that with a wife and son and I did it. It's a matter of principles mate but my main gripe is that most nurses probably became health care workers to help people so to shaft them for their own gain really gets my goat. Rules may well be different down south but my union covered my fees even though I never got to tribunal as local councillors awarded me my job back twice on hearing the evidence. I was working on the Monday after being sacked on the Friday too so no need to go hungry. I've no gripe with you mate I just think morals are more important than following rules that make no sense.
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How refreshing to read your post:) I'm with you on that one.

I know that assessors can be from various disciplines, ie doctor, nurse, physio, paramedic, occupational therapist. I have always maintained that as a nurse I could in no way work for one of these companies performing these assessments. I can't understand any who do to be frank. I've said previously, im sure there are many health care professionals who are doing a fine honest assessment but they are not all doing this.

This is people's lives we are talking about, the wrong outcome can have serious implications for people.

This is the software being used, you may find it interesting.

http://www.whywaitforever.com/dwpatoslima.html
 
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