Immigrants crossing the channel.

[Cockney]

Only if the government doesn't plan properly. Growing economy = more workers = more people = more capacity needed but also means more tax receipts.

If we have an aging workforce and are at full employment then growing the economy requires an influx of workers. It's a predictable rise in population and needs to be factored into infrastructure funding.

The rise in population is predictable but the numbers are not. Unless we manage them of course. Which is all i advocate.

 

[mex]

The number we have the capacity to house, feed, educate care for, transport and integrate. While still maintaining a quality of life that means people still want to live here.

Ok, so what is that figure? what is the capacity of the country with your recommendations? With regard to the last part of your statement, there's not too many fleeing because of a drop in their living standards.

 

[Cobra]

I can give you one example ( Of many ) that has affected me , As follows

It doesn't affect me directly. BUT we have a lot of very wide grass verges around here, And I mean wide, some are rather nice tree lined others are quite heavily planted with bushes and shrubs, although they are still fronted with "several feet" of grassed area's
The local council do a good job through the year "Managing" these areas. They aren't really play areas as such, as they are normally along side busy dual carriageways, or other fast roads.

Every year for as long as I can remember ( about now) the travelling community pull up with their caravans, and 4x4's.
Each year, after they move on, the cost of clearing up after them is published in the local paper along with images of the garbage they left behind, and that's anything from tin cans to sheep fleeces / remains.

Last year the council said enough is enough and built ( and are still building, its a big ask) mud banks about 3 feet high, as barriers.
They look(ed) scruffy at the time but now they have started to grass over, it all fits in with the local landscape.
I guess the cost the cost of this is outweighed by the costs of the "clean up crews"

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Each year, after they move on, the cost of clearing up after them is published in the local paper along with images of the garbage they left behind, and that's anything from tin cans to sheep fleeces / remains.

There are various "traveller" groups and several are seldom noticed because they're as law abiding (or not) as the host communities.

Roma are like any other minority group: extremely varied and only noticed when something goes wrong. I produced an article on a group that travelled mostly around Devon and Somerset in the 1970s and they were nice people and very careful about clearing up after themselves. Many have close relatives who have settled and it's apparently not uncommon for the travelling members of the family to visit with their settled cousins during hard weather.

Fair and Circus folk are working migrants who often have well established home bases to which they return during the off-season. They rely on land owners (both private and public) for their business and therefor are careful to avoid friction wherever possible. When I worked for the local press I came into contact with them and found them no different from any other business men and women (and just as varied).

"Irish Travellers", who are often not Irish, are generally itinerant workers and have aquired a reputation for sharp practice and anti-social behaviour, which is not always deserved but occurs often enough to stick to their name. This is the group which seems most likely to attract adverse attention. Both the members of my family who are with the police have had to deal with them in the past and have mixed feelings about this group. I've employed some in the past and found that they did a good job, provided I nailed down the deal carefully.

There are various other groups but I have no personal experience and can't comment on them.

 

[Cockney]

Ok, so what is that figure? what is the capacity of the country with your recommendations? With regard to the last part of your statement, there's not too many fleeing because of a drop in their living standards.

I have no idea what the figure is but even the most blinkered must recognise there is a maximum capacity to maintain an acceptable living standard. 80million? 100 million? Standing room only?

 

[Cockney]

The biggest problem I see is lack of integration. There are whole areas that may as well be Rumania, Iran etc etc.
A bit like Brit ex pats. No intention of integrating. We do nothing (or very little) to encourage or enforce it.

 

[mex]

I have no idea what the figure is but even the most blinkered must recognise there is a maximum capacity to maintain an acceptable living standard. 80million? 100 million? Standing room only?

I'm sure there is a maximum capacity, I'm also sure that as a country we are nowhere near that.

The biggest problem I see is lack of integration. There are whole areas that may as well be Rumania, Iran etc etc.
A bit like Brit ex pats. No intention of integrating. We do nothing (or very little) to encourage or enforce it.

I agree, but we also do a great deal to disencourage it too, like putting up our own barriers to people 'who don't fit in'. We are allegedly a tolerant nation, but our toleration is sometimes tested particularly when we decide that people of a certain colour are somehow beneath us. Would the likes of NF (his intials are ironic don't you think?) be ponsing about in a boat pointing fingers at desperate people if they were white? I somehow doubt it. Would you make the statement that whole areas are German, American,Canadian etc.etc ? Probably not.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

I have no idea what the figure is but even the most blinkered must recognise there is a maximum capacity to maintain an acceptable living standard. 80million? 100 million? Standing room only?

Surely the maximum capacity with regards to living standards depends on the economy. If there were 100 million people, 95% working, then properly funding infrastructure wouldn't be a problem so there's no reason living standards should be directly linked to population really.

 

[F1.2]

Remind me please what the current national debt is as a result of open borders CV19 , and who do we have to thank for this mess " The EU " insisting on open borders , Look what happened in Germany and now how Angela Merkel regrets her actions

 

[Cobra]

There are various "traveller" groups and several are seldom noticed because they're as law abiding (or not) as the host communities.

I'm not sure how we attract the dishonest type?
In another life I drove a fuel tanker, one of my jobs was delivering red diesel to the many many building sites in the area ( There is not so many these days.)
I'd deliver on a Friday afternoon ready for the following week,
Monday morning we'd invariably get a call for another top up, after the tank had been repaired obviously the tap and nozzles were securely locked but "someone" had smashed the taps off the fuel tanks, and drained it that way. What didn't fit in the containers was just left to run to earth.

According to the site managers no one was ever caught or prosecuted, but it always stopped after the travelling community moved out of the area.
Noticeable by the lack of caravans along the afore mentioned grass verges

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Remind me please what the current national debt is as a result of open borders CV19 , and who do we have to thank for this mess " The EU " insisting on open borders , Look what happened in Germany and now how Angela Merkel regrets her actions

How have "open borders" got anything to do with national debt when EU migrants are net contributers, and we have the power in the citizens charter to deport anyone who becomes a burden on the state? (But choose not to use this power, because it would cost more than it'd save)

 

[AZ6]

Every year for as long as I can remember ( about now) the travelling community pull up with their caravans, and 4x4's.
Each year, after they move on, the cost of clearing up after them is published in the local paper along with images of the garbage they left behind, and that's anything from tin cans to sheep fleeces / remains.

Ok so a couple of points here:

1: Why are 'travellers' being mentioned, in a discussion about migrants from overseas (specifically, potential refugees and asylum seekers)? The vast majority of 'travellers' in the UK are British people.

2: I think it only fair to mention that things shouldn't always be taken at face value; I have heard of, and witnessed with my own eyes, other people fly tipping near traveller sites, knowing that it will inevitably be the travellers who will be blamed. It follows then, that crimes committed in the area shouldn't always be similarly attributed to the travelers; again, innocent until proven guilty. I'm not aware of any figures which show a disproportionate level of criminal convictions amongst those from travelling communities, relative to other groups of similar economic demographics.

3: Many people from travelling communities are amongst the most disadvantaged and underrepresented people in our society. Whilst I'm not denying their can be issues with certain individuals and individual groups, the stigma resulting from myths that are spread about 'travellers' cause a lot of fear, ignorance and hatred. Those without agency and representaion can find it very difficult to speak for themselves. I think this is something that should always be kept in mind.


We live in a society which can, at times, be very insular and parochial. People fear 'others'. Literally, xenophobia. This fear is the biggest cause of problems between people. Because ultimately, we're not actually al that different; we have similar needs, feelings and desires.

 

[AZ6]

The biggest problem I see is lack of integration. There are whole areas that may as well be Rumania, Iran etc etc.
A bit like Brit ex pats. No intention of integrating. We do nothing (or very little) to encourage or enforce it.

I quite like the fact that entire districts have a particular flavour; homogeneity is very boring. We have 'Chinatown', 'Banglatown', 'Little Italy', etc. The area I live in has the largest Orthodox Jewish community in Europe. As well as lots of others. I absolutely love it. Most of us rub along just fine with one another. Far more tolerance and acceptance of diversity. Whereas I can travel to some picturesque little English village, and be looked at like I have two heads. In 'my own' country. So who is failing to 'integrate' here?

Integration should never be forced; it should only happen organically. And tbh, given that Britain is founded on migration and foreign influence, surely we should be changing 'our' own behaviour as much as we expect others to do so. Why not?

 

[AZ6]

Remind me please what the current national debt is as a result of open borders CV19 , and who do we have to thank for this mess " The EU " insisting on open borders , Look what happened in Germany and now how Angela Merkel regrets her actions

I'd really like to see someone try to prove this, with actual facts. I imagine it would be quite a challenge...

 

[Cobra]

I think it only fair to mention that things shouldn't always be taken at face value;

The afore mentioned rubbish is behind the vans caravans and 4x4's and only visible once they move on.

Why are 'travellers' being mentioned, in a discussion about migrants from overseas

Threads evolve you should have seen that by now, however,
I also have it on good authority they many come here from Ireland, so they arrive just like migrants,

 

[woof woof]

The afore mentioned rubbish is behind the vans caravans and 4x4's and only visible once they move on.


Threads evolve you should have seen that by now, however,
I also have it on good authority they many come here from Ireland, so they arrive just like migrants,

Hopefully there's a difference between traveler bands and also between gypsies and travelers.

Years ago a disused local council building and plot was taken over by travelers and when they left I just couldn't believe what they left behind and also I can't understand how they did it. They left an absolute mountain of rubbish and debris. So much so that every van and car and trailer must have been fully pre loaded with the stuff and even that couldn't have been enough, they must have called in their crap carrying mates from miles around to dump their stuff too. I just couldn't understand how they left such a mess.

Other than that the only other real experience I've had of travelers was when they occupied a park near my then gf. The crime rate went through the roof while they were there. They may have genuine complaints and grievances but some of them don't do the decent ones any favors.

 

[AZ6]

The afore mentioned rubbish is behind the vans caravans and 4x4's and only visible once they move on.

Fair enough. As I said; "Whilst I'm not denying their can be issues with certain individuals and individual groups, the stigma resulting from myths that are spread about 'travellers' cause a lot of fear, ignorance and hatred. Those without agency and representation can find it very difficult to speak for themselves. I think this is something that should always be kept in mind." IE; not ALL 'travellers' create mess and nuisance. Basing a judgment on experience with a small sample size is unfair and creates unfair prejudice.

I also have it on good authority they many come here from Ireland, so they arrive just like migrants,

'You have it on 'good authority'. Ok.

Many Irish Travellers in the UK have been born in Britain


Many Roma travellers are British too. So you see; another myth about them being 'foreign' can be challenged with facts.


I'm just curious as to why someone would pick 'travellers' to suggest that 'foreigners' cause trouble here. When as I said earlier; the vast majority are in fact British...

Threads evolve you should have seen that by now

We've seen it 'evolve' from talking about people trying to get here in boats, to 'travellers'. I'm not entirely sure as to why. I'm wondering what group will be the next to become a subject for scrutiny and discussion? And for what reasons?

 

[Cobra]

'You have it on 'good authority'. Ok.

From the Irish family that used to live opposite if you must know.

Many Irish Travellers in the UK have been born in Britain

And Many is the operative word, many is not all.

 

[woof woof]

Quite a few travellers could contribute quite a lot to British life, if they wanted to. A couple had a fight outside home and both could throw a good punch, neither had any movement or defense though but with a bit a training and discipline they could fit in well at the local boxing club.

 

[AZ6]

Quite a few travellers could contribute quite a lot to British life, if they wanted to.

How do you know they don't?

From the Irish family that used to live opposite if you must know.

Ah. From just one family.

And Many is the operative word, many is not all.

In the absence of any actual facts and data, such as seeing everyone's passports/birth certificates etc, why assume 'many' are from Ireland? Why not simply, and just as easily, assume they are from the UK, and British citizens?

 

[woof woof]

How do you know they don't?

Some do some don't. Unless you know and can speak for them all?

For some not contributing is a part of it.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Some do some don't. Unless you know and can speak for them all?

For some not contributing is a part of it.

So same with literally every single group of people then?

 

[woof woof]

So same with literally every single group of people then?

I'm not saying otherwise. All I'm doing is answering the argumentative one above.

I'm all for alternative lifestyles and choosing what and what not to be involved in within the law. It's just a shame that the good get tarnished by the scumbags who've jumped on the band wagon and instead of being a credit cause the crime rate to rise and leave the area covered with waste. A few may tarnish the many.

 

[F1.2]

How have "open borders" got anything to do with national debt when EU migrants are net contributers, and we have the power in the citizens charter to deport anyone who becomes a burden on the state? (But choose not to use this power, because it would cost more than it'd save)

Infected visitors coming into the UK by boat , ferry , Aircraft ,train and allowed to walk straight through customs , resulting in CV 19 entring the UK and spread to all parts of the UK , as a result we now have lockdown that as already stated by educated people will cause the biggest recession in 300 years , How much is our debt , no answer to that one yet ?

 

[AZ6]

Some do some don't. Unless you know and can speak for them all?

I'm not the one making the sweeping statement about "Quite a few travellers could contribute quite a lot to British life, if they wanted to". You are. The burden of needing to provide proof falls on you, the 'accuser'. Remember that great pillar of British justice; 'innocent until proven guilty'? Let's apply that to ALL, unilaterally.

So again; how do YOU know they don't?

 

[AZ6]

Infected visitors coming into the UK by boat , ferry , Aircraft ,train and allowed to walk straight through customs , resulting in CV 19 entring the UK and spread to all parts of the UK , as a result we now have lockdown that as already stated by educated people will cause the biggest recession in 300 years , How much is our debt , no answer to that one yet ?

How do you KNOW the infected ones were 'visitors'? How do you know they're not British nationals, who were abroad on business or holiday?

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Infected visitors coming into the UK by boat , ferry , Aircraft ,train and allowed to walk straight through customs , resulting in CV 19 entring the UK and spread to all parts of the UK , as a result we now have lockdown that as already stated by educated people will cause the biggest recession in 300 years , How much is our debt , no answer to that one yet ?

So is that the fault of people coming here? Or an inept Government who are only just now beginning any kind of quarantine or screening for incoming flights etc?

 

[Cockney]

I quite like the fact that entire districts have a particular flavour; homogeneity is very boring. We have 'Chinatown', 'Banglatown', 'Little Italy', etc. The area I live in has the largest Orthodox Jewish community in Europe. As well as lots of others. I absolutely love it. Most of us rub along just fine with one another. Far more tolerance and acceptance of diversity. Whereas I can travel to some picturesque little English village, and be looked at like I have two heads. In 'my own' country. So who is failing to 'integrate' here?

Integration should never be forced; it should only happen organically. And tbh, given that Britain is founded on migration and foreign influence, surely we should be changing 'our' own behaviour as much as we expect others to do so. Why not?

In general I agree. Im not thinking of areas with a certain cultural flavour though. Im talking about areas that are practically no go for people outside that culture.

 

[F1.2]

How do you KNOW the infected ones were 'visitors'? How do you know they're not British nationals, who were abroad on business or holiday?

No one knows but if we had control things may be a lot different
I deeply regret open borders , we were forced into this by the EU as any negotiations included 1st must have open borders , Why ? my opinion is that its a way of passing on people

I will say one last time , When is enough enough ?
Did I mention one of my long term neighbours has had enough and is now moving out of the area
This now leaves just me in a block of 4 houses as a UK born and bred resident , all other are migrants as is most of the road residents

 

[AZ6]

In general I agree. Im not thinking of areas with a certain cultural flavour though. Im talking about areas that are practically no go for people outside that culture.

What area in the UK, is a 'no go area' for people not of the local demographic? I've visited some of the 'roughest' parts of Britain, and I've never been anywhere I've felt at 'risk'.

 

[Cockney]

I'm sure there is a maximum capacity, I'm also sure that as a country we are nowhere near that.



I agree, but we also do a great deal to disencourage it too, like putting up our own barriers to people 'who don't fit in'. We are allegedly a tolerant nation, but our toleration is sometimes tested particularly when we decide that people of a certain colour are somehow beneath us. Would the likes of NF (his intials are ironic don't you think?) be ponsing about in a boat pointing fingers at desperate people if they were white? I somehow doubt it. Would you make the statement that whole areas are German, American,Canadian etc.etc ? Probably not.

You always manage to infer it's a race issue. It's not for me anyway.
In your examples there is almost no language barrier. If a German area almost exclusively spoke German I would feel awkward. As I do if walking in a Welsh pub and all the locals start speaking Welsh.
I actually don't give a stuff what background people come from. I've met plenty of British wasters.

 

[AZ6]

No one knows but if we had control things may be a lot different

That would have involved refusing entry to UK nationals, or at least quarantining them.

I will say one last time , When is enough enough ?

You can shout it as many times as you want. It's still an irrelevant question.

Did I mention one of my long term neighbours has had enough and is now moving out of the area
This now leaves just me in a block of 4 houses as a UK born and bred resident , all other are migrants as is most of the road residents

So what? Assuming they all have the 'right' to be here, what's the problem?

What has your neighbour had 'enough' of?

And who's 'we'?

 

[Cockney]

What area in the UK, is a 'no go area' for people not of the local demographic? I've visited some of the 'roughest' parts of Britain, and I've never been anywhere I've felt at 'risk'.

Try Eastwood in Rotherham. Page Hall Sheffield. Isleworth Middlesex. Pop along in the evening for a coffee and a bun. Good luck.

 

[Diving Pete]

What area in the UK, is a 'no go area' for people not of the local demographic? I've visited some of the 'roughest' parts of Britain, and I've never been anywhere I've felt at 'risk'.

Interestingly Chalkhill Farm in Wembley Park (London) defiantly was an area to avoid in the late 80's / 90's.

 

[Diving Pete]

Sorry also forgot Barnes in SE london..

 

[Cockney]

Interestingly Chalkhill Farm in Wembley Park (London) defiantly was an area to avoid in the late 80's / 90's.

There are vast areas of London you wouldnt go after dark. Tottenham and Wood Green come to mind.

 

[AZ6]

Try Eastwood in Rotherham. Page Hall Sheffield. Isleworth Middlesex. Pop along in the evening for a coffee and a bun. Good luck.

None of those areas would faze me. Iselworth? Are you having a laugh??? It's a quiet suburb! I grew up in the East End of London mate, in the 1970s and 80s. I've lived on one of the most deprived estates in Europe. Nowhere is a 'no go area' for me. Or indeed anyone. This is the UK ffs, not downtown Sao Paolo, Bogota or Lagos. Jeeze!

Why do YOU consider such areas 'no go'?

 

[AZ6]

There are vast areas of London you wouldnt go after dark. Tottenham and Wood Green come to mind.

Lol! Are you serious? Ha ha! I live near those areas, and have been through them, after dark, many many times. There are risks, but they aren't that bad compared to what some places used to be. You must just scare easily.

Sorry also forgot Barnes in SE london..

Now I know you're having a laugh.

Ooh, ooh! I know! Budleigh Salterton! Deadly!

Is that how you play this game?

 

[Ricardodaforce]

No one knows but if we had control things may be a lot different
I deeply regret open borders , we were forced into this by the EU as any negotiations included 1st must have open borders , Why ? my opinion is that its a way of passing on people

Total b******t. Open borders within the EU gives people the right to live and work where they want within the Union. It opens up opportunities for the individual. It’s nothing to do with “passing on” people. Some of us took advantage of that right and managed to integrate into the community of our host nation.
You should have given it a try (I use the past tense because you no longer have the right) because you come across as insular and somewhat antagonistic to foreign people.

 

[F1.2]

That would have involved refusing entry to UK nationals, or at least quarantining them.



You can shout it as many times as you want. It's still an irrelevant question.




So what? Assuming they all have the 'right' to be here, what's the problem?

What has your neighbour had 'enough' of?

And who's 'we'?

The UK gouverment representing the UK resident , but up until Brexit they folded like a cheap suit

What has your neighbour had 'enough' of

The situation we now have to put up with or move out of homes we have lived piecfully in for decades

You can shout it as many times as you want. It's still an irrelevant question.

Said who ? Oh it was you a leading authority on irrelevant questions by the look of it