Keyless

[Marc]

Saw a discussion about this on another forum and wondered about peoples' thoughts on here.

I get my new car in a couple of months and it comes with Keyless Entry/Start. The discussion was about the chances of some using tech to "steal" the code and then steal your car. Some were advocating putting the fob in a faraday cage wallet and only removing it to lock/unlock and start the car. Seems to negate the whole point of Keyless to me but would be good to hear other peoples' thoughts. Do people think it's a serious problem or is it just paranoia?

 

[sep9001]

We were just having a conversation about this yesterday. I think the cars easy to steal are BMW, Merc and Lexus.

The wallet is to be used when you are at home, so put the key in that so that they cannot scan the frequency from your front door.

 

[nilagin]

It is a serious problem and plenty of cars are being stolen as a result. Most are stolen by one person waving a signal amplifier across your front door hoping to relay the key fob signal to the receiver held by an accomplice waiting to open the car door and start the car. Hence keeping the remotes in faraday pouches or tin boxes when you are at home.
Some people keep their remotes in the pouches all the time apart from when they need to enter and start the car. For someone to relay your key signal and steal your car just after you have locked it is very rare, I certainly haven't read of any such thefts. But if a thief is going to use the latter, the chances is he will have a signal blocker or grabber to pick up a conventional push button remote anyway and be able to enter a non keyless car anyway.
If you are unhappy having keyless entry, ask your dealer if it can be disabled, it is possible on some makes of car.
I am happy to keep my keyless entry active, but it is rendered obsolete by using a Disklok and other measures to immobilise the car.

 

[Box Brownie]

I suppose it depends at what point the key can be "scanned" and how close you were to your car for that fob to be identified with that specific vehicle.

Firstly I thought they used NFC technology i.e. any device that will read it needs to be quite close. So protection against the potential for this sort crime is not just about using a protective wallet. It is also about your special awareness I e. have you been observed .......and have you been approached/ bumped into in a crowd?

With tech developing all the time I am surprised the fobs are not using a rotating handshake i.e. the same code is not used twice.

 

[B1ts]

I suppose it depends at what point the key can be "scanned" and how close you were to your car for that fob to be identified with that specific vehicle.

Firstly I thought they used NFC technology i.e. any device that will read it needs to be quite close. So protection against the potential for this sort crime is not just about using a protective wallet. It is also about your special awareness I e. have you been observed .......and have you been approached/ bumped into in a crowd?

With tech developing all the time I am surprised the fobs are not using a rotating handshake i.e. the same code is not used twice.

They do use different codes so the bumping into someone in a crowd method wouldn't work, the scam relies as Nilagin said on an accomplice relaying live the current active coding, in other words it is a live process not a precapture one. Suppose you could say bumping into still a possibility but would be a bit blatant as you would still need to be car adjacent ish....

On most keyless Mercedes pressing lock on fob twice locks car then disables key until a key button is pressed again to wake it.

 

[srichards]

Keyless is incredibly insecure. Most of the fobs don't have any kind of movement detection which would eliminate a lot of the issues. There's lots of youtube footage of shady types in balaclavas waving boxes around people's front doors to get the car to respond. Once it does then you're in and off.

I have a keyless car but it can be turned off just by locking it with the remote fob. This way you can turn it off over night and then use it keyless during the day. I'd make sure yours does the same as then you have a choice.

Most of the footage shows them checking entire streets for vulnerable cars. They're spend ages and are absolutely brazen in doing so.

 

[nilagin]

I suppose it depends at what point the key can be "scanned" and how close you were to your car for that fob to be identified with that specific vehicle.

Firstly I thought they used NFC technology i.e. any device that will read it needs to be quite close. So protection against the potential for this sort crime is not just about using a protective wallet. It is also about your special awareness I e. have you been observed .......and have you been approached/ bumped into in a crowd?

From what I have read the theives scanner has a range of up to 25 metres to grab the signal. If the receiver unfit can operate at a similar distance, the fob could be 50 metres from the car.

 

[neil_g]

Like a lot of wireless protocols theres always the risk of man in the middle style attacks.

 

[Marc]

The wallet is to be used when you are at home, so put the key in that so that they cannot scan the frequency from your front door.

It is a serious problem and plenty of cars are being stolen as a result. Most are stolen by one person waving a signal amplifier across your front door hoping to relay the key fob signal to the receiver held by an accomplice waiting to open the car door and start the car. Hence keeping the remotes in faraday pouches or tin boxes when you are at home.
Some people keep their remotes in the pouches all the time apart from when they need to enter and start the car. For someone to relay your key signal and steal your car just after you have locked it is very rare, I certainly haven't read of any such thefts. But if a thief is going to use the latter, the chances is he will have a signal blocker or grabber to pick up a conventional push button remote anyway and be able to enter a non keyless car anyway.
If you are unhappy having keyless entry, ask your dealer if it can be disabled, it is possible on some makes of car.
I am happy to keep my keyless entry active, but it is rendered obsolete by using a Disklok and other measures to immobilise the car.

From what I have read the theives scanner has a range of up to 25 metres to grab the signal. If the receiver unfit can operate at a similar distance, the fob could be 50 metres from the car.

I'm not too worried about when I'm at home as the missus' car is always parked behind mine on the drive but I'm surprised that the range of the scanners are that much. I keep my keys in my jacket pocket which hangs on the back of my office door which is upstairs to the back of the house but is certainly less than 25m from the car.

I think the main concern, if it is indeed one, would be when parking at a shopping centre/supermarket.

That said, I don't want it deactivated as it will be a great help to me as I do struggle to get the key in the ignition, especially in the dark.

I have a keyless car but it can be turned off just by locking it with the remote fob. This way you can turn it off over night and then use it keyless during the day. I'd make sure yours does the same as then you have a choice.

I'll see if it does that (Hyundai Ioniq) as that looks like a useful feature.

 

[Box Brownie]

Is the Ford fob type at similar risk. The one that requires button pushing for entry/locking & unlocking buy no key insert to start the engine?

 

[boogie man]

Is the Ford fob type at similar risk. The one that requires button pushing for entry/locking & unlocking buy no key insert to start the engine?

I think they’re a bit safer as the thief would need to get in before he could start the car. Most thieves don’t want to draw attention by breaking glass or forcing the door locks.

I’ve got the same system in my Audi. I had a Jag XF before with keyless entry. The Jag was certainly more convenient but the Audi system feels safer

 

[Paul W. H]

We have a Ford Edge Sport which is keyless entry & start/stop.

We keep our car keys in "wallets" when not in use at all times when not driving.

I don't know if they can detect the code when the engine is running as in following you around a supermarket carpark looking for a parking space.

 

[nilagin]

Is the Ford fob type at similar risk. The one that requires button pushing for entry/locking & unlocking buy no key insert to start the engine?

The only risk of that one is if they can enter the car by other means. Like any other car, they can then program a new blank fob via the obd port. To counteract this you can fit a padlock over the obd port to prevent anything being plugged into it, buy a fake obd port off eBay which plugs into the original, will register on their laptop but won't make the necessary connections to the pcm to enable programming. Alternatively you can leave the fake obd port unplugged and cable tie the original port out of the way and just put it back to normal anytime access maybe required by a dealer.

 

[JonathanRyan]

From what I have read the theives scanner has a range of up to 25 metres to grab the signal. If the receiver unfit can operate at a similar distance, the fob could be 50 metres from the car.

There has been a proof of concept hack at over 1km. Thief 1 got close to the driver on a bus leaving a park and ride. They scanned the key and broadcast the code to Thief 2 who was standing next to the car. For obvious reasons, details of the exact tech used aren't being released.

 

[srichards]

There has been a proof of concept hack at over 1km. Thief 1 got close to the driver on a bus leaving a park and ride. They scanned the key and broadcast the code to Thief 2 who was standing next to the car. For obvious reasons, details of the exact tech used aren't being released.

Cripes. That's quite a distance. Seems to me that cars need to have a secondary method of recognising the key is in range that isn't spoofable in any way at all.

 

[Marc]

There has been a proof of concept hack at over 1km. Thief 1 got close to the driver on a bus leaving a park and ride. They scanned the key and broadcast the code to Thief 2 who was standing next to the car. For obvious reasons, details of the exact tech used aren't being released.

Good grief!

I would imagine that thieves to go through this much effort are targeting premium brands (Mercedes/ BMW etc)?

 

[Nod]

While I'd hate to have the inconvenience of having a car stolen, I don't lose sleep over it despite it being keyless. Insurance will go towards an upgrade if it happens.

 

[nilagin]

Cripes. That's quite a distance. Seems to me that cars need to have a secondary method of recognising the key is in range that isn't spoofable in any way at all.

The problem is as soon as manufacturers improve on their security, thieves alter their stealing tactics to suit. That is why it is best to supplement a manufacturers security with your own multiple measures.
It won't stop thieves getting into a vehicle but one of the best means of immobilising a car is having Ghost by Autowatch fitted. The owner sets up their own code which is a personal sequence any of the switches in the car. If the sequence of switches/buttons isn't pressed beforehand, the car cannot be started. The owner will also be able to set up another code for Valet mode for when the car has to be serviced etc.

 

[Nod]

The unfortunate fact is that if they're determined to have it away, it'll go - all you can do is slow them down.

 

[gman]

Most of the fobs don't have any kind of movement detection which would eliminate a lot of the issues.

I've often wondered about this, surely a motion sensor to wake up the key fob would be the ideal solution and perhaps even save battery life?

 

[nilagin]

I've often wondered about this, surely a motion sensor to wake up the key fob would be the ideal solution and perhaps even save battery life?

Ford will have motion sensors in their fobs soon. They will switch off after the fob has been motionless for around 40 seconds.

 

[Kieranstandishphoto]

Ghost immobiliser, job done. Car can still be knicked but only with a tow/lift. The technology could be implemented by the manufacturers with a simple software upgrade, (assuming the car has a can bus style system) but then they would not get sales by replacing stolen cars would they

 

[Gremlin]

It's something I have often wondered about with all this technology and intercepting signals etc.
One of the car parks near me registers your number plate as you drive in and you tap it into the pay machine when you leave to
pay the charge and it automatically lets you out, no ticket issued.
What if someone really wanted a vehicle, how easy would it be to just get the signal code and take the car ?

 

[nilagin]

Ghost immobiliser, job done. Car can still be knicked but only with a tow/lift. The technology could be implemented by the manufacturers with a simple software upgrade, (assuming the car has a can bus style system) but then they would not get sales by replacing stolen cars would they

But then a lot of people don't like to replace a stolen car with the same make let alone model.
When I picked up my new car? the dealer gave me a letter from Essex Police advising of different security and actions to take to keep the car secure. Not a good thing to do if they are hoping for a replacement sale should the car get stolen.

 

[gman]

So when these car thieves use their gear to grab and extend the signal to the car so they can drive it away, what happens after they turn it off, how do they get it started again or can something be hooked up via OBD port whilst it's running to create a new fob?

 

[srichards]

They don't care. Most seem to be broken for bits or wanged into containers and sent abroad. They'll just programme a fresh key.

 

[nilagin]

They just programme a new fob at their convenience via the obd as that equipment is legal and readily available so that locksmiths etc. can programme them and you don't have to go to a dealer. The engine doesn't need to be running.

 

[JonathanRyan]

Good grief!

I would imagine that thieves to go through this much effort are targeting premium brands (Mercedes/ BMW etc)?

I would assume so. My 4 year old Honda is pretty safe not least because thieves don't seem to want them.

I once spent a pleasant evening with both the AA and RAC trying to break into it. Followed by a long night of driving 150 miles home for the key. Followed by....., well, you get the rest.

 

[soupdragon]

I would assume so. My 4 year old Honda is pretty safe not least because thieves don't seem to want them.

I once spent a pleasant evening with both the AA and RAC trying to break into it. Followed by a long night of driving 150 miles home for the key. Followed by....., well, you get the rest.

No one wants to steal my 3 yo swift sport either.
As someone said, premium brands are probably the only ones worth the effort.

I'm prone to thinking the main stream media exaggerate these things out of all proportion anyway.

 

[nilagin]

No one wants to steal my 3 yo swift sport either.
As someone said, premium brands are probably the only ones worth the effort.

I'm prone to thinking the main stream media exaggerate these things out of all proportion anyway.

You'd be wrong in thinking it is only premium brands they bother going after. They are stealing mainstream mass produced cars too. Not just the sports or high end models neither.
A year or so ago in my area, it was mostly Mercedes and BMW SUV's with the odd Ford etc. being stolen, now it is the opposite. Last 6 months or so there has been a lot of Kugas stolen. Some on consecutive nights from the same road.

 

[soupdragon]

That I didn't know.
It's almost as if the fobs could do with an on off switch.

 

[gman]

They just programme a new fob at their convenience via the obd as that equipment is legal and readily available so that locksmiths etc. can programme them and you don't have to go to a dealer. The engine doesn't need to be running.

That's insane!

 

[nilagin]

That's insane!

Police and insurers are trying to make it so only licensed operators can buy and use the equipment. A bit late when the stuff is out there already.
Another daft thing is that the EU has stipulated that the obd port has to be close to the steering wheel and for a lot of cars this means they accessible through a broken drivers door window.

 

[stevewestern]

Can anyone please explain the appeal of keyless ?
My 10 year old Berlingo has a key, which suits me fine, and gives you some idea of my level of interest in cars. My wife has a keyless Focus. She still has to have the fob close to hand to open the door (seems to need to be within a metre of the door to open it) and pressing a button instead of turning a key doesn't seem like much of a big deal especially given what I've understood from the posts in this thread. Am I missing something ?

 

[gman]

I wasn't a fan until I started getting cars which have it. My fob basically just sits in my pocket all the time. No key to jab into me, no flip out key to break (because they are usually more flimsy), no key to wear down, no fumbling around in the dark (or when carrying things) for the fob button or key, no negotiation between the steering lock and turning the key etc.

However, I do think that the car shouldn't be able to drive unless the fob is present in the cabin and this shouldn't be difficult because I believe there's already proximity sensors to detect where the fob is to prevent a stranger opening the doors from the outside whilst you are inside.

Engine start button too much effort? Get the Polestar 2, the start button is built into the seat! lol

 

[bass_junkie83]

Can anyone please explain the appeal of keyless ?
My 10 year old Berlingo has a key, which suits me fine, and gives you some idea of my level of interest in cars. My wife has a keyless Focus. She still has to have the fob close to hand to open the door (seems to need to be within a metre of the door to open it) and pressing a button instead of turning a key doesn't seem like much of a big deal especially given what I've understood from the posts in this thread. Am I missing something ?

Keyless entry = keyless start = Race car!

 

[stevewestern]

Keyless entry = keyless start = Race car!

Ah, now I get it - my Berlingo isn't a race car.

 

[Mr Bump]

I've never realy understood keyless outside the realm of silly cars either.
for me I find my key fob I walk to the car and when I get about 5 metres away I press the open button.
I get in the car insert the key and turn it engine starts I drive. off.

 

[nilagin]

I've never realy understood cars.

It had to be done.

 

[Nod]

I walk up to the car, open the door, get in, press the button and drive away. OR, I walk up to the car, try the handle, swear, go back into the house to get the fob and try again! With the Leaf, same as above but I need to press a button to unlock the door. The MX-5 has a remote central locking system and a "normal" flick key.