Lack of DOF - how do you get around it (if at all!)

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Mike
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Hi All - hope you are all well and enjoying shooting macro in these strange times.

I am currently shooting with a Sony A7Rii and 90mm (with flash) - generally I pick f16 but have been finding the dof very shallow and my hit rate is very low. I whacked it up to f22 as an experiment but the image was unusably soft (I know what diffraction is but this surprised me).

Interested to know what everybody else is doing - eg using a smaller sensor camera, shorter focal length lens, heavy crops, stacking etc ?

Need some advice as this is bugging me now - I have a great camera and lens but it's not really working for me...

Cheers for any replies :)
 
To get more DOF the only way is focus stacking unfortunately Mike. Laying the focal plane on the subject to get the bits you want in focus take a little practise but is well within your skills. Using a smaller sensor helps and croping like you say is another way. The challenge is what makes macro so much fun TBH. Oh yeah the more you magnify the worst it gets :D
 
Focus stacking, fine with plants but for insects you may need to cool them down a bit to keep them still long enough.
The smaller the sensor, the shorter the lens you need for the same framing, that will give you a slightly better DOF, as will using a 50mm macro instead of a 90mm macro
Look over to the film photographers side of the forum and you may find something over there about using tilt and shift to expand DOF, biasing the focal plane back through your subject rather than having it parallel to the sensor, but you would ideally want to achieve that without increasing sensor (film) size.
 
The smaller the sensor, the shorter the lens you need for the same framing, that will give you a slightly better DOF, as will using a 50mm macro instead of a 90mm macro
No... Aperture and Magnification affect DoF when shooting macro, focal length has no effect. You can try shooting so that the subject is smaller in the frame which is not always ideal. Focus stacking is the best way...
 
No... Aperture and Magnification affect DoF when shooting macro, focal length has no effect. You can try shooting so that the subject is smaller in the frame which is not always ideal. Focus stacking is the best way...

So a 90mm on a FF camera and a 60mm on a crop sensor camera or a 270mm on a 4x5 framed on the same subject will give the same DOF coverage?
 
I'm using the same lens as you on a used APSC Sony A6000 that I bought solely as a macro body. For stacking I'm using it on a Velbon macro rail and Affinity Photo software for the merging. It's setup that works for me and is a cheaper solution than many others except that I keep adding to it with stuff like off camera flash. It's addictive and a form of GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) but hey ho it's lockdown!
 
So a 90mm on a FF camera and a 60mm on a crop sensor camera or a 270mm on a 4x5 framed on the same subject will give the same DOF coverage?
We are not talking about different formats... the magnification will obviously be different. Just take two example lenses the 90mm and the 60mm, if the magnification is identical on the sensor and the aperture is the same the DoF will be as near as damn it the same.
 
We are not talking about different formats... the magnification will obviously be different. Just take two example lenses the 90mm and the 60mm, if the magnification is identical on the sensor and the aperture is the same the DoF will be as near as damn it the same.
All 3 of those focal lengths have near enough the same field of view on the format I have listed against them, so all 3 would be able to frame and take the same shot
 
Thanks very much all for the replies - I may try the A7Rii on crop mode to see if that helps and also play around with various apertures.

I have tried stacking in the past but let's be honest it's a bit of a guddle - I am finding it hard enough to get one decent shot at the moment never mind a sequence of them...

I May find that my macro mojo returns but at the moment I think I was getting better shots 5 years ago than I am now whitch is not exactly encouraging... however it may be me rather than the gear I am using :)
 
All 3 of those focal lengths have near enough the same field of view on the format I have listed against them, so all 3 would be able to frame and take the same shot
Yes but the magnification to achieve the same framing on the 5 x 4 camera would be greater, if all three took the image but with identical magnification (not framing) the DoF would be as near as damn it identical.
 
I think the latest ones look good Mike. And what about your recent Educated fleas? That looks excellent to me.

f/16 looks like it is working for you. As you know, I shoot f/45 full frame equivalent for invertebrates. At 1:1 your f/16 is effective f/32, and your f/22 at 1:1 is effective f/45, so we are in the same ballpark, and your latest ones don't look soft to me.

If you are still concerned about sharpness ..... I don't know what processing you are using but based on my recent experience you might want to download a trial copy of Topaz DeNoise AI and try it. (I have incorporated it into my workflow.)

As you know I often use a bridge camera with a very small sensor for invertebrates, but that doesn't provide any additional depth of field. In fact, depending on magnification I can get greater depth of field with any of my interchangeable lens cameras (micro four thirds, APS-C or full frame) than with my small sensor cameras. With a given minimum aperture (e.g. f/22), and at a given magnification [<correction: when framing the same scene], you can get greater depth of field with APS-C than full frame, and more with micro four thirds than with APS-C. For example you can get roughly twice the depth of field with micro four thirds at f/22 than with full frame at f/22. However, would you really want to go there? f/22 on micro four thirds at 1:1 is effective f/45, and that is f/90 full frame equivalent. OK, you do get more depth of field, but of course you get the additional diffraction effect to go with that. So even though as you know I'm happy using small apertures, I don't think I would want to go that far. Were I using my full frame camera for invertebrates I would be experimenting with up to effective f/45 or so, but I wouldn't be hankering to go further than that (although I'm sure I would try it just to check that I wasn't missing a trick).

As to low hit rates .... I usually have low hit rates, and I don't know but I strongly suspect most people do who photograph active invertebrates like your latest ones above that are easily frightened off and even if not may stick around only briefly. My advice would be to do lots and lots of captures and be prepared to sift through them. If a subject sticks around I'll keep on snapping away, moving in and out, and changing the angle of attack. There are aesthetic considerations involved in both cases, but also practical considerations to do with the impact on cropability (see next paragraph) and the impact of the angle of attack on how the depth of field falls across the subject. There may only be one combination of magnification and angle for which everything falls into place, and if I take half a dozen shots with that combination, only one of them (or none) may have the depth of field falling optimally. (I work hand-held and I get a lot of shot to shot variation in terms of focusing.) You might want to add variation in aperture to the mix so you can explore the depth of field issue with some practical like for like examples of individual subjects to compare and contrast, and help work out what works for you and what doesn't.

Cropping? ..... Yes, that can help, and with your A7rii you should have plenty of scope for cropping. Definitely something to experiment with and see how far you can push it. (One of the reasons I use framing/magnification variations is that how much cropping I can get away with varies from scene to scene, It's not unusual in my experience for a cropped capture from further out/lower magnification to be better than an uncropped capture framed as I want the final image to look. But take that too far and the depth of field advantage gets outweighed by loss of detail and/or increased visibility/impact of noise. I can't work out in the field what will work best for a particular subject; I have to look at and compare candidate captures carefully, and see how they respond to processing, including cropping. Hence my doing capture variation.)

Out in the field I do captures for stacking for flowers etc, but stacking for invertebrates out in the field is a lot more difficult - smaller subjects, and subjects that are liable to move, or have parts that are moving, and time constraints because they may not be there very long. I keep thinking I'll try it more for invertebrates, but when it comes to it I'm thinking that while I trying to get stacking captures I'm going to be missing single shots that may be fine. One thing you might want to try is small stack captures, which can be done quickly, with perhaps as few as two or three captures (maybe few more sometimes if you have time). That is more practical in the field than deep stacks, the type that people do on often mechanised rigs, for tens of captures are used along with sweet spot (quite large) apertures. Out in the field I would try using a middling to small aperture, maybe in the f/8 to f/16 range and take several shots probably using fixed focus and moving the camera a little between shots.

If you are going to try stacking I suggest, if you haven't got some already, getting a trial of some software to help with the stacking, the two specialised stacking applications to try being Zerene Stacker and Helicon Focus. Some of the more general purpose editing applications will do focus stacking, for example the very modestly priced Affinity Photo. The general purpose applications won't provide the degree of control that the specialised stacking applications will, but there are plenty of people who find them suitable for their needs.
 
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Just to be clear, you are writing about framing and not magnification here?

Well spotted. Yes. What I wrote is incorrect. If you frame the same scene with full frame and APS-C (in which case the magnification will be different), using the same f-number, you will get greater depth of field with APS-C.

Thank you for pointing this out. I have added a correction.
 
I think the latest ones look good Mike. And what about your recent Educated fleas? That looks excellent to me.

f/16 looks like it is working for you. As you know, I shoot f/45 full frame equivalent for invertebrates. At 1:1 your f/16 is effective f/32, and your f/22 at 1:1 is effective f/45, so we are in the same ballpark, and your latest ones don't look soft to me.

If you are still concerned about sharpness ..... I don't know what processing you are using but based on my recent experience you might want to download a trial copy of Topaz DeNoise AI and try it. (I have incorporated it into my workflow.)

As you know I often use a bridge camera with a very small sensor for invertebrates, but that doesn't provide any additional depth of field. In fact, depending on magnification I can get greater depth of field with any of my interchangeable lens cameras (micro four thirds, APS-C or full frame) than with my small sensor cameras. With a given minimum aperture (e.g. f/22), and at a given magnification [<correction: when framing the same scene], you can get greater depth of field with APS-C than full frame, and more with micro four thirds than with APS-C. For example you can get roughly twice the depth of field with micro four thirds at f/22 than with full frame at f/22. However, would you really want to go there? f/22 on micro four thirds at 1:1 is effective f/45, and that is f/90 full frame equivalent. OK, you do get more depth of field, but of course you get the additional diffraction effect to go with that. So even though as you know I'm happy using small apertures, I don't think I would want to go that far. Were I using my full frame camera for invertebrates I would be experimenting with up to effective f/45 or so, but I wouldn't be hankering to go further than that (although I'm sure I would try it just to check that I wasn't missing a trick).

As to low hit rates .... I usually have low hit rates, and I don't know but I strongly suspect most people do who photograph active invertebrates like your latest ones above that are easily frightened off and even if not may stick around only briefly. My advice would be to do lots and lots of captures and be prepared to sift through them. If a subject sticks around I'll keep on snapping away, moving in and out, and changing the angle of attack. There are aesthetic considerations involved in both cases, but also practical considerations to do with the impact on cropability (see next paragraph) and the impact of the angle of attack on how the depth of field falls across the subject. There may only be one combination of magnification and angle for which everything falls into place, and if I take half a dozen shots with that combination, only one of them (or none) may have the depth of field falling optimally. (I work hand-held and I get a lot of shot to shot variation in terms of focusing.) You might want to add variation in aperture to the mix so you can explore the depth of field issue with some practical like for like examples of individual subjects to compare and contrast, and help work out what works for you and what doesn't.

Cropping? ..... Yes, that can help, and with your A7rii you should have plenty of scope for cropping. Definitely something to experiment with and see how far you can push it. (One of the reasons I use framing/magnification variations is that how much cropping I can get away with varies from scene to scene, It's not unusual in my experience for a cropped capture from further out/lower magnification to be better than an uncropped capture framed as I want the final image to look. But take that too far and the depth of field advantage gets outweighed by loss of detail and/or increased visibility/impact of noise. I can't work out in the field what will work best for a particular subject; I have to look at and compare candidate captures carefully, and see how they respond to processing, including cropping. Hence my doing capture variation.)

Out in the field I do captures for stacking for flowers etc, but stacking for invertebrates out in the field is a lot more difficult - smaller subjects, and subjects that are liable to move, or have parts that are moving, and time constraints because they may not be there very long. I keep thinking I'll try it more for invertebrates, but when it comes to it I'm thinking that while I trying to get stacking captures I'm going to be missing single shots that may be fine. One thing you might want to try is small stack captures, which can be done quickly, with perhaps as few as two or three captures (maybe few more sometimes if you have time). That is more practical in the field than deep stacks, the type that people do on often mechanised rigs, for tens of captures are used along with sweet spot (quite large) apertures. Out in the field I would try using a middling to small aperture, maybe in the f/8 to f/16 range and take several shots probably using fixed focus and moving the camera a little between shots.

If you are going to try stacking I suggest, if you haven't got some already, getting a trial of some software to help with the stacking, the two specialised stacking applications to try being Zerene Stacker and Helicon Focus. Some of the more general purpose editing applications will do focus stacking, for example the very modestly priced Affinity Photo. The general purpose applications won't provide the degree of control that the specialised stacking applications will, but there are plenty of people who find them suitable for their needs.

Hi Nick.

Thanks very much for the comprehensive reply, very much appreciate your thoughts as always. I think fundamentally I had two issues:

1. getting a bit fed up with it all in general and loss of my macro mojo - now that lockdown is being eased I seem to be getting into it a bit more and my recent outings have been more fruitful.
2. a couple of really basic technical issues - I think my lighting was a bit off as my new (more powerful) flash sits a bit higher so I needed to redirect my diffuser a bit lower down, and also for reasons unknown I was shooting on aperture priority (with the camera picking a shutter speed of 1/60) rather than on full manual where I would normally have selected 1/200 (in both cases I leave the flash on TTL so it can give as much light as is needed). When the flash is providing virtually all the light you can get away with a slower shutter to a degree but I think this was giving me softer images.

You're right about the smaller apertures - on my last outing I tried a few a f18/f20/f22 as well as my usual f16 and unless you look really close you can't see much difference (whereas if you run out of dof it is obvious) so I will definitely continue to experiment here and in fact the Greenbottle above was shot at f18 and it is definitely useable (by my standards anyway) despite also being a fairly big crop.

I have tried a few stacks in the past (with Zerene) but as you say it is tricky with bugs and a bit of a palaver regardless so I will probably continue trying to optimise my single shot approach.

Hope you are keeping well and enjoying the good weather despite these strange times we are living through.

All the best, Mike.
 
Hi Nick.

Thanks very much for the comprehensive reply, very much appreciate your thoughts as always. I think fundamentally I had two issues:

1. getting a bit fed up with it all in general and loss of my macro mojo - now that lockdown is being eased I seem to be getting into it a bit more and my recent outings have been more fruitful.
2. a couple of really basic technical issues - I think my lighting was a bit off as my new (more powerful) flash sits a bit higher so I needed to redirect my diffuser a bit lower down, and also for reasons unknown I was shooting on aperture priority (with the camera picking a shutter speed of 1/60) rather than on full manual where I would normally have selected 1/200 (in both cases I leave the flash on TTL so it can give as much light as is needed). When the flash is providing virtually all the light you can get away with a slower shutter to a degree but I think this was giving me softer images.

You're right about the smaller apertures - on my last outing I tried a few a f18/f20/f22 as well as my usual f16 and unless you look really close you can't see much difference (whereas if you run out of dof it is obvious) so I will definitely continue to experiment here and in fact the Greenbottle above was shot at f18 and it is definitely useable (by my standards anyway) despite also being a fairly big crop.

I have tried a few stacks in the past (with Zerene) but as you say it is tricky with bugs and a bit of a palaver regardless so I will probably continue trying to optimise my single shot approach.

Hope you are keeping well and enjoying the good weather despite these strange times we are living through.

All the best, Mike.

Glad you got those two issues sorted and are having more success now.

We are fine thanks, but have been isolated and not gone off the property for weeks now as we are both on the extremely vulnerable list. That's not so bad as we never went out much anyway so it's not hugely different for us. I can't go to the nature reserves, so I'm restricted to the garden, but that's of no consequence in the wider scheme of things.

Hope you and yours are well and remain so.

Nick
 
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