Military taking over in Zimbabwe

I wonder when the "accidental shooting" will start. That will be closely followed by the UK offering them more money.
 
ecoleman said:
Who does the military belong to?
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THEY SEEM TO BE ACTING INDEPENDANTLY ACCORDING TO REPORTS.
THERE MAIN AIM SEEMS TO BE KEEPING GRACE FROM TAKING POWER WOTH HER EXTRA CORRUPT GROUP OF CRONIES.
 
Mr Bump said:
THEY SEEM TO BE ACTING INDEPENDANTLY ACCORDING TO REPORTS.
THERE MAIN AIM SEEMS TO BE KEEPING GRACE FROM TAKING POWER WOTH HER EXTRA CORRUPT GROUP OF CRONIES.
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Lets hope so, although nothing surprises me anymore with African countries. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an ulterior motive and the whole thing has been orchestrated by Mugabe for some or other reason.
 
cambsno said:
Couldn't happen to a nicer man!!
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oddly enough I agree but it looks very much like it is not about him
I think the old guard military think that if Grace gets into power it will lead to their power base being threatened.
oh I agree he is a completely nasty guy but that's African despots for you.
 
Is this going to be ANOTHER waist of money we can poke our noses into?
 
It's about maintaining the original group in power now that Mugabe is too old to hang on, but can't completely let go. This *may* be better for the country, but it's all to ensure the status quo continues and the wealthy stay that way.
 
its all about the fact Grace Mogabe has pushed her way up the chain with no real political savvy, just corruption and violence.
The military want a gradual return to a decent zimbawe, if Grace was to have become president the place would have become a war zone.

looks like already people are saying cautious good things, no violence, arm are just standing about keeping eye on things.

looks good to me.
 
Stumpy said:
Is this going to be ANOTHER waist of money we can poke our noses into?
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We've already put out foot in it, maybe we should leg it this time, use our heads. But then you've got to hand it to the military, for wristing the takeover

Ok I think thats the body parts puns done...
 
The sad thing about Zimbabwe is that it was once one of the most fertile, prosperous countries that was ruined through the land seizures, propped up now by China, relying on exports of gold, diamonds, alloys, and tobacco. Trouble is, not much of that finds it's way to the people...
 
loads of corrupt ministers being rounded up.
 
Initially I thought this would be a good thing but its not going to change anything, the Army are only doing it to ensure that the Zanu-PF Party stay in power but without the Mugabes, they seem to want recently deposed Vice President Emmerson Mnangagwa in power but he's as much part of the problem as Mugabe is.
 
chrism_scotland said:
Initially I thought this would be a good thing but its not going to change anything, the Army are only doing it to ensure that the Zanu-PF Party stay in power but without the Mugabes, they seem to want recently deposed Vice President Emmerson Mnangagwa in power but he's as much part of the problem as Mugabe is.
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I disagree he might be the face that the world is willing to deal with tho.
Mugabe has simply been unwilling to involve with the west constantly dredging up the past.
might be time for Zimbabwe to move on.
 
Mr Bump said:
I disagree he might be the face that the world is willing to deal with tho.
Mugabe has simply been unwilling to involve with the west constantly dredging up the past.
might be time for Zimbabwe to move on.
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The military are a pretty bad lot unless they have changed over the years, fingers crossed that they have. Most people seem to be thinking it can’t be any worse than Mugable but it could.
 
sphexx said:
The military are a pretty bad lot unless they have changed over the years, fingers crossed that they have. Most people seem to be thinking it can’t be any worse than Mugable but it could.
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Most of the worst things that could happen already did under Mugabe - genocide, systematic oppression, theft and endorsed corruption - although they could all be repeated again in various ways.

As explained to me by a Zimbabwean, the cultural approach to resources is that you use them up and work them out until completely exhausted and then move on elsewhere. This is the approach to government that has been taken and will continue to be taken until someone with a different cultural understanding takes over. It is possible that, if that can happen, they will still be African, but far more likely they will be of a different origin and probably Asian. It's not at all about dealing with the west or otherwise, and in times past resources have been brought from other countries including North Korea.
 
Mr Bump said:
loads of corrupt ministers being rounded up.
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Yes ............ interviews for new jobs to be allocated on the basis of their particular dodgepot skills.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Most of the worst things that could happen already did under Mugabe - genocide, systematic oppression, theft and endorsed corruption - although they could all be repeated again in various ways.
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Yes but the genocidal persecutions of the Ndebele was carried out by these same Army people now poised to take over. North Korean trained if I remember rightly.
As explained to me by a Zimbabwean, the cultural approach to resources is that you use them up and work them out until completely exhausted and then move on elsewhere. This is the approach to government that has been taken and will continue to be taken until someone with a different cultural understanding takes over. It is possible that, if that can happen, they will still be African, but far more likely they will be of a different origin and probably Asian. It's not at all about dealing with the west or otherwise, and in times past resources have been brought from other countries including North Korea.
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This is too hard on Africans. This approach to resources is what we did until recently and is currently the attitude and practice of the Donald and his friends in USA.
 
HE, (His Excellency) Mugabe - no doubt he will be now able to devote his time to being a WHO goodwill ambassador ... and to other charitable works
 
Mr Bump said:
its all about the fact Grace Mogabe has pushed her way up the chain with no real political savvy, just corruption and violence.
The military want a gradual return to a decent zimbawe, if Grace was to have become president the place would have become a war zone.

looks like already people are saying cautious good things, no violence, arm are just standing about keeping eye on things.

looks good to me.
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Yes, because her husband has been such a paragon of virtue and beneficence.
 
Mr Bump said:
its all about the fact Grace Mogabe has pushed her way up the chain with no real political savvy, just corruption and violence.
The military want a gradual return to a decent zimbawe, if Grace was to have become president the place would have become a war zone.

looks like already people are saying cautious good things, no violence, arm are just standing about keeping eye on things.

looks good to me.
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I think that it is just the simple matter of the senior Military men, who have always supported and been tied in with Zanu-PF, wanting to ensure that "their man" was in power, (rather than a younger person not from their generation). It will not change anything until the Mugabe "generation" have gone ... and then anything could happen ......... next year's elections will be the next "flash" point.

I wouldn't hold out much hope for a quick change because of what is now happening
 
sphexx said:
Yes but the genocidal persecutions of the Ndebele was carried out by these same Army people now poised to take over. North Korean trained if I remember rightly.
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You do. It was the Fifth Brigade, but it was a 'special' force answerable to Robert Mugabe as Prime Minister. I chatted to an Ndebele girl on an overnight flight from London to Joburg a few years ago, and her hatred for Mugabe and the Shona was still intense...
 
sphexx said:
Yes but the genocidal persecutions of the Ndebele was carried out by these same Army people now poised to take over. North Korean trained if I remember rightly.
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Yup. AFAIK the Nork trained 5th army was directed personally by Mugabe to do what they did, so on that basis I'd expect something similar or possibly a little more restrained.

This is too hard on Africans. This approach to resources is what we did until recently and is currently the attitude and practice of the Donald and his friends in USA.
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TBH the European and Asian lifestyle has for many generations been based on subsistence farming living off the same plot of land for centuries and carefully managing resources. That's a stark contrast to the lifestyle of some African tribes, such as the Shona and Zulus, which has tended to be nomadic and migratory, consuming resources & moving on. Their current presence in Zimbabwe is accidental, since they were migrating through the country when borders started to become fixed and white farmers gave them reason to settle instead of continuing to travel, or so it was explained to me. It's not intended to be a harsh judgement of the Africans, so much as recognising that their culture does not suit modern requirements, and is unlikely to be changed in just a generation.

Worth remembering too that the Shona were the 'prey' of the Zulus and possibly the Ndbele, and a resource that was mined as harshly as the land. I believe many of the names of places were changed after Independence, not to erase white rule, but to erase traces of the Zulus and other races that treated the Shona cruelly. Mugabe is a very atypical Shona.
 
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ancient_mariner said:
Yup. AFAIK the Nork trained 5th army was directed personally by Mugabe to do what they did, so on that basis I'd expect something similar or possibly a little more restrained.

This is too hard on Africans. This approach to resources is what we did until recently and is currently the attitude and practice of the Donald and his friends in USA.
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TBH the European and Asian lifestyle has for many generations been based on subsistence farming living off the same plot of land for centuries and carefully managing resources. That's a stark contrast to the lifestyle of some African tribes, such as the Shona and Zulus, which has tended to be nomadic and migratory, consuming resources & moving on. Their current presence in Zimbabwe is accidental, since they were migrating through the country when borders started to become fixed and white farmers gave them reason to settle instead of continuing to travel, or so it was explained to me. It's not intended to be a harsh judgement of the Africans, so much as recognising that their culture does not suit modern requirements, and is unlikely to be changed in just a generation.
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Yes, I agree the nomadic lifestyle largely disappeared from Europe long ago but I was thinking more of our industrial use of resources — which you could argue are sort of nomadic ;)
 
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sphexx said:
Yes, I agree the nomadic lifestyle largely disappeared from Europe long ago but I was thinking more of our industrial use of resources — which you could argue are sort of nomadic ;)
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Yes, I'd agree with the industrial use of resources, but that hasn't entered the general culture and approach to living - rather the opposite, with a substantial proportion of european countries taking a positive stand towards conservation and recycling, environmental protection etc.
 
So he's refusing to resign.

How big has he lost the plot?

The military clearly respect him enormously. That was just about the nicest coup in history and they've given him every chance.

Idiot deserves whatever comes next.
 
They very much don't want it to be a coup because of the trouble it will cause with other African nations and congresses, so they need Mugabe to resign in order for it to remain somewhat constitutional and keep Zim in good relations with the other states. Mugabe knows this and that's his one remaining lever.
 
Yes, agreed.

I would imagine he will now be impeached. Requires 2/3 majority vote in both houses, but that's a given.
 
His rambling non resignation speech was an interesting insight into the mind of a dictator. He clearly has no idea what state the country has been in for donkey years - he says he knows “the economy is going through a difficult patch”, ha-bloody-ha!
 
Just seen on the BBC
"The BBC's Andrew Harding in Zimbabwe suggests the army may now have taken Mr Mugabe's side."
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I wonder what he's offered them that's better than the other guy?
 
They need elections now really, while the iron is hot, but I don’t know what the constitution says, very likely it is up to the President.
 
Quoth said:
Robert Mugabe resigns as president of Zimbabwe

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/21/robert-mugabe-resigns-as-president-of-zimbabwe

And he's resigned... Let's hope for fair elections when the time comes.
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Yip, but an African political scientist was asked whether SA elections were 'free and fair' a few years ago. He said yes, for all practical purposes, and they'll remain free and fair until the ANC think there's any real possibility of losing power...

That's the way things are in Africa, and many other places.
 
MartynK said:
Yip, but an African political scientist was asked whether SA elections were 'free and fair' a few years ago. He said yes, for all practical purposes, and they'll remain free and fair until the ANC think there's any real possibility of losing power...

That's the way things are in Africa, and many other places.
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Yes, but the opposition did win the elections previously and the opposition and political landscape is rather different than SA so fingers crossed.
 
sphexx said:
Yes, but the opposition did win the elections previously and the opposition and political landscape is rather different than SA so fingers crossed.
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I have fond memories or Rhodesia (I'm not Rhodesian, but I'm South African on my mother's side) and I truly hope you're right, but...

This isn't regime change, just an internal adjustment by ZANU-PF, and Emmerson Mnangagwa has a reputation for ruthless/violent suppression of dissent. He was one of the main perpetrators of the genocide in Matabeleland in the 1980s.
 
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