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  1. snerkler

    snerkler

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    That could well be your issue. Silent is fully electronic shutter and the electronic shutter still takes around 1/60 to 'scroll' across the sensor, so whilst each part of the sensor is only exposed at 1/1250, or 1/2000 etc, you still have to think of the shutter speed being roughly 1/60 and so with moving subjects, or if you're moving it can produce movement in the images.

    If you want electronic first curtain only then you need to use anti-shock mode, but in certain situations this can still cause issues, although I'm yet to experience any
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
  2. snerkler

    snerkler

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    Sorry, the 20mm f1.7 is panasonic but like all m4/3 lenses it works fine on olympus. Some complain about AF speed but tbh this is only an issue when focussing on subjects that differ quite a bit in camera to subject distance. If focussing at a similar subject distance the focus is pretty much as fast as any other lens. Also, with street you'll probably be using zone focus anyway.
     
  3. Mark Johnson

    Mark Johnson

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    Gosh, these cameras are minefields aren't they.......

    Will certainly try what you suggest, but really like the silent shutter, especially when taking continuous shots. Not so keen on the machine gun effects.........

    Anyway, thanks for your help and suggestions...........
     
  4. footman

    footman

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    Olympus recommend using silent/anti-shock when using a "long lens". When I first used my 300mm with the 1.4 TC on the E-M1 mk1 I used the mechanical shutter and was disappointed with the images. Using the anti-shock/silent solved that issue, at least to my eyes anyway :whistle:
    I haven't taken very many BIF with this system, but took this recently:
    [​IMG]Eilat 2017 by mack100, on Flickr

    It's quite a crop and I was initially unsure about the IQ, still not too sure! It's interesting what Snerkler says about moving objects, I should try some BIF using the mechanical shutter. I wouldn't use the High Speed Continuous setting though as AFAIK focus is only acquired on the first frame, I think I'll try the Low Speed option. My head hurts already!
     
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  5. Greytop

    Greytop

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    Huw
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    Interesting, I'm curious to know the source of your info? I'm a aware that the image is exposed scrolling across the sensor but I would have thought it would have had to be significantly quicker than only a 1/60 second if you think about it ;)
    Many of my recent BIF shots (mainly Red Kites) have been taken using using the electronic shutter in excess of 1/1000 exposure time (15+fps bursts) and if there is no evidence of any anomaly due to rolling shutter??

    Example
    [​IMG]Another close pass by Huw Prosser, on Flickr
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
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  6. snerkler

    snerkler

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    Can you point me in the direction of where olympus recommend using silent mode for long lenses please as this goes against everything that I understand about this mode so need to learn if that's the case. It's a while since I've used my Olly, but I think that you can still use continuous high and acquire focus since the firmware 3, it just drops to 9fps rather than 10fps. This is probably model dependant though.
     
  7. footman

    footman

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    Page 47 of the manual, what they actually say is to use anti-shock when using a super telephoto lens.
    That's still electronic shutter isn't it?
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
  8. GyRob

    GyRob

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    Omd mkII 300F4 pro - I use low mechanical and low silent around 1/2000 if possible and I don't see any difference in the shots I am new to Olympus though .
    Rob.
     
  9. alfbranch

    alfbranch

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    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
  10. alfbranch

    alfbranch

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    Anti shock is on the mechanical shutter as it not vibration is expected with the electronic shutter as no mechanical parts move.
    The mechanical shutter has to close then open and close again then reopen to take a single shot. The shutter is open except when it is fired.
     
  11. footman

    footman

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    I know even less than I thought, still confused!
     
  12. snerkler

    snerkler

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    I will try and source you some later, but google is full of info on it. Having done a quick google some are suggesting as low as 1/20 actually, although I think that's a bit low. I'll see if I can find a reliable source, I might even contact Olympus out of interest. The 'scrolling' of the electronic shutter is why you also can often get banding under fluorescent lights.

    Rolling shutter is a weird one and not all movement will cause it. It's actually 'easier' to get rolling shutter imo if you are moving rather than the subject, for example if you're the type of person that does street photography and take pics as you're walking.
     
  13. Mark Johnson

    Mark Johnson

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    As far as I can understand the manual, the antishock and silent mode do similar things and are recommended for long lenses. Except the silent is silent of course..

    On my Em1 ii, I can't set the anti shock as shutter mode for some reason. I have set the delay to 1/8th second in menu 2 for both of these modes, but still no anti shock availability in the menu.

    Again IF I understand the antishock mode, there is just a delay in the shutter firing, so the camera settles down. Not rocket science after all. But I may be wrong Usually am :(:(

    I am nearing seven score and ten, so maybe I just shake to much, not over evident, but maybe I am passed it.......................Shucks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
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  14. snerkler

    snerkler

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    Nope, only electronic first curtain, the mechanical shutter still closes at the end of the shot. With electronic both first and second curtains are electronic. As alf says antishock (electronic first curtain only) it's to reduce the chance of shutter shock. It's a 'phenomenon that's arisen more due to mirrorless that have to have the shutter open to view the image on the viewfinder/LCD as you're seeing the image hitting the sensor. Therefore the shutter has to 'move into position' before the shot is taken and it's thought to be the main cause of shutter shock. Shutter shock is less prevalent on DSLRs, but you can still get it, although some say it's actually mirror slap rather than shutter shock.

    I guess the reason they suggest anti shock using teles is that telephotos exaggerate camera shake/vibration.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
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  15. GyRob

    GyRob

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    So I take it this means the electronic in effect has the anti shock built in by the way it works .
    Rob.
     
  16. Mark Johnson

    Mark Johnson

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  17. snerkler

    snerkler

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    Yes, but with the issue of adding the potential of rolling shutter.

    It does seem odd having such high shutter speeds if you can't actually 'freeze' motion due to the time it takes to scan the sensor with the electronic shutter. However, I believe the fast shutter speeds are to allow the use of fast lenses in bright sunlight rather than trying to freeze motion. Looking around it does appear that different cameras have different times it takes to scan the sensor. A number of Panasonic for example have been quoted as low as 1/15, but some as high as 1/60. There's talk that there was hope that the EM1-II would be as quick as 1/125-1/160 but I haven't as yet seen any evidence of this. I have just emailed Olympus to get confirmation of the scan time/effective shutter speed for the Em5-II, EM1 and EM1-II. I shall update as and when (y)
     
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  18. Mark Johnson

    Mark Johnson

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    Can of worms being opened I suspect......................

    Maybe best to stick to the MS............and machine gun them boids at the same time..:):):)
     
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  19. snerkler

    snerkler

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    I don't think it's a can of worms, I think it's good if people can understand how it works and what the pitfalls are. Better than having a load of ruined images (y). TBH I have no issue using antishock, in fact that's what I shoot 99% of the time. However, if I do see any artefacts for a particular shoot I will revert back to mechanical only and compare. As for silent, imo it should only be used on rare occasions when you absolutely have to have a silent shutter. There's too much potential for things to go wrong. I certainly wouldn't use it for anything moving (although as pointed out you can get away with it) or if I'm moving, YMMV. I wouldn't use it under fluorescent lighting either.
     
  20. GyRob

    GyRob

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    I think we are missing something and the electronic shutter is far quicker than 1/15 or 1/125 sec regarding stopping motion or just about everything would show blur and electronic shutters would not have much higher speed than that .
    Rob.
     
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  21. snerkler

    snerkler

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    With the electronic shutter it scans across the shutter in 'lines'. Each line is only exposed to the higher shutter speed therefore freezing motion, however by the time the scan has moved to the other end of the sensor the subject 'may' have moved in relation to the first lines and you get this 'wobbly' effect known as rolling shutter. It looks very different than that motion caused by subject blur from too slow a shutter speed or camera shake.

    Why you don't always get this I can't answer. Maybe it has to be movement in a particular fashion, in some situations maybe some are using anti shock and not silent, or maybe it's something else. As long are folk are aware of it it's up to them if they wish to risk it or not. It's a well documented phenomenon and manufacturers even warn you about it in the manual, although they don't go into detail as why they just say that using silent mode/full electronic shutter can introduce motion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
  22. mikew

    mikew

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    This is a carp image from my early days of mirrorless, i kept it as it shows the effect of rolling shutter on stationery uprights.

    P1080518.jpg
     
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  23. snerkler

    snerkler

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    Nice one. Weird how the bird doesn't appear to be affected (as much/noticeably)
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
  24. GyRob

    GyRob

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    Interesting ,I think I will need to check this out and see if I can live with it ,I did buy this setup Primarily for the Silent shutter for Birds, flight and still that said the Mechanical shutter is a lot quieter than my mkII 1DX So I know I will be happy either way .
    I am pleased about that as running 2 systems has cost quite a lot of cash .
    Rob.
     
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  25. mikew

    mikew

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    It only shows on verticals if you are panning but trees or any thing go weird.
     
  26. Mark Johnson

    Mark Johnson

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  27. Mr Perceptive

    Mr Perceptive

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    It also depends on the orientation of the camera, if looking a square object moving at high speed horizontally across the fov, in landscape orientation will cause the object to tear, and so would result in a parallelogram, turn it to portrait mode, and you will either get an elongated rectangle or a compressed one, depending which way the shutter rolled, but the object would still be rectalinear.
     
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  28. mikew

    mikew

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    If your panning with a bird against the sky you should notice no distortion as you would be moving at the same speed as the bird.
     
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  29. damianmkv

    damianmkv Uh oh, a fruit basket!

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    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  30. damianmkv

    damianmkv Uh oh, a fruit basket!

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  31. snerkler

    snerkler

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  32. footman

    footman

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  33. Phiggys

    Phiggys

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    I'm new to 4/3 and like you I have got the omd-em5 MKII I initially with the 17mm and 45mm primes
    But I soon added a Couple of bargain priced Panasonic len's the 100-300mm and the 14-140mm which I have found to be much better so far than the Olympus 14-150mm MKII lens that I tried out !
    I have also added a few lens adapters to use some of my large arsenal of len's that I own.
    I'm finding the menu system rather daunting though ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
  34. ianp5a

    ianp5a

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    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  35. srhmoto

    srhmoto

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    Time to sell kidney (or two) :LOL:
     
  36. footman

    footman

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    [​IMG]Mandarin by mack100, on Flickr

    This system still frustrates the hell out of me, I took over 600 shots today and this is the only one I felt was good enough to keep yet I was happy with my Red Kite shots of yesterday. I think I'm expecting too much of the E-m1 Mkii sensor in all but the most perfect light conditions.
     
  37. snerkler

    snerkler

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    Nice shot, have you added the pink/reds to the water or is that reflecting off something?

    What aren't you happy with noise or sharpness?
     
  38. footman

    footman

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    Nothing added, it's all reflections of the foliage surrounding the lake.
    Not having a deep technical knowledge of sensors I have some trouble articulating my thoughts. The sensor seems "unforgiving" in all but the most optimal of conditions. I have to be careful not to compare apples with bananas, my full frame Canon seems to smooth out the harshness when the available light becomes less golden, I seem to get noise when slightly under exposing together with blown areas showing little detail.
     
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  39. snerkler

    snerkler

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    I think we get spoilt with FF tbh as I never had much of an issue with my Ollies before, but since coming back to it as a second system after using FF for a couple of years it surprised me how much noise is present, even at base ISO. That being said I have had useable images at 3200 ISO and overall I'm happy with the Olly. I just have to keep reminding myself not to expect FF quality ;)
     
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  40. footman

    footman

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    With my mates out with me today I suggested that I have with me a troupe of bearers carrying a vast array of equipment, I only have to say "BIF low light " and the most suitable gear would be placed in my hands.
     
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